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Brown-Wilson (Ferguson) discussion

Originally posted by qazplm:
I have a ton I could say about all of this, but suffice to say, the standard for probable cause is not "more likely than not" that's preponderance. Probable cause is a much lower standard.
Surprised you haven't weighed in here in some ways, but not so much in other ways, considering the narrative you favored was summarily discounted by the investigation. Specifically that Wilson WAS assaulted, Brown was not shot in the back nor attempting to surrender. These store both witness testimonies that you favored in prior threads.

That said, not trying to bicker about who was right, but curious as to your thoughts here in the legal sense. Do you believe there is enough credible evidence presented to indict?

After reviewing a lot of it, but purposely not reading Wilson's testimony, it seems that the protested narrative (hands up don't shoot) is a complete fabrication, and that some onlookers at the scene even attempted to intimidate some witnesses to run with the story (specifically stated in Witness 10 and at least one other witness' statement) Many of witnesses who attested to some form of surrender by Brown range from questionable to downright comical (witness 12? I think, for example, the lady who is suicidal, whose uncle is in the FBI, and who thinks police have automatic handguns that go 'click click' when they are empty, and that Brown was at times shot in the back, while on his knees, and again after he was flat on his stomach...)
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yeah no

1. The grand jury can return a no true bill with a minority of 4 votes. That means you need a super majority to get an indictment. So since we don't know how they voted, we don't know anything about whether or not "the narrative I favored (which you continually, at this point purposefully, misstate)" was "summarily discounted." What we know is that at least four said not to go forward.

2. What do you need me to do to get it through you abnormally thick head? Seriously? Tell me. What exact words do I have to type concerning whether or not "Wilson WAS assaulted?" Tell me. Because I've said every way possible that I thought there was a physical altercation at the vehicle and the nearly exact words I typed was that Brown had a large degree of the responsibility there. Seriously, at has to be on purpose at this point. You have to know exactly what I've said and for some reason are just lying about it.

3. I didn't say Brown was shot in the back. I said he was shot at while running away. Again, you ask why I don't weigh in? Here's one reason why.

4. Whether Brown was shot attempting to surrender was not "discounted" by the GJ. There were 22 witnesses who talked about the end of the shooting. I'll ignore his friend. That leaves 21. 5 look like they didn't see enough at the end to know much more than that there was a shooting (either because they couldn't see or weren't looking). That leaves 16. 2 are clearly lying by saying Wilson was standing over Brown and shot him. That leaves 14 who saw what happened and don't appear to be outright lying. Of those 14, 6-7 said Brown had his hands up [Federal witness 16, and witnesses 14, 22. 37, 42, and 64] (one is iffy on it) . Another 4 said Brown was walking towards Wilson, not rushing him. That's 10-11 out of 14 people discounting the idea that Brown was charging Wilson. 1 said he was rushing Wilson. Another sorta intimates that. That's 2 out of 14 people. So not sure what testimony you were reading to come to the assertion that his hands were not up. If you want to talk about witnesses with no credibility, then one of the TWO witnesses who described rushing wrote in his journal the day of the shooting ""I'm going to take a random drive to Florissant. Need to understand the black race better so I stop calling blacks ******s..." He also testified that Brown grabbed Wilson's leg and punched off the rear view mirror, both things we know didn't happen.

5. Let's look at the testimony of Wilson. As an attorney with tons of experience in defense, and two years as a Chief of Justice (effectively the "DA" of an Army post), I've seen 100s of witnesses on the stand. The easiest way to tell someone is lying is when they portray themselves as pure and 100 percent good, and the other side (Accused or Victim) as wholly bad or evil. That's exactly what Wilson did, from describing Brown as a "demon" to over-exaggeration of a lot of details. But don't take my word for it, this link does a lot of the work: http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side
I could also include questions like: how did the gun jam twice in the car? Why did Wilson testify that Brown was rushing at him and also had his hand in his waistband like he was going for a gun when we all know he didn't have a gun? That's a straight up lie designed to make folks think black man with a gun. We are to believe that one-handed, Brown held down/beat down Wilson in the car while handing his cigarellos to his friend? Oh, and we are to believe that immediately after the shooting, the police chief was wrong when he said Wilson didn't know about the robbery. Why? Because Brown testified once he saw the cigarellos, he put together that Brown was involved in the robbery. It's baloney. A real DA seeking an indictment would have made Wilson look like a lying idiot. Heck, no defense attorney would have put Wilson at the GJ without COMPLETE assurance that there was no danger.

6. As to whether or not there was credible evidence to get an indictment? Of course there was. If the DA wanted an indictment, he could have gotten one. He didn't.

If you want an indictment you don't bring in the accused to testify.
If you want an indictment and you do bring in the accused to testify, you don't act like his defense counsel in questioning him
If you want an indictment, you give the panel clear legal standards and you limit the possible offenses to limit confusion. They didn't do the latter, and they gave the GJ the wrong, outdated Missouri legal standard for police shootings, one that was favorable to Wilson, and when one of the GJ members pointed it out and asked what they should do (follow MO or follow the Supreme Court) the Ass DA basically said don't worry about it. Don't believe me, research it.
If you want an indictment, you don't attack the witnesses who say things against the accused, challenging their credibility.
If you want an indictment, you don't bring in defense friendly witnesses period.

I could go on, An indictment happens nearly all the time (because probable cause is a really really low standard--one could argue it's the second lowest of the legal standards we have just about reasonable suspicion), except in police cases. Then they almost never happen. Of course, in this case, it didn't happen not because of the reasons you want to believe, but because the DA was a guy who's father was a cop killed in the line of duty by an African American, and a guy who's spent his entire career without ever so much as indicting a single cop. And because the DA set up the process to make sure the GJ had too much information, had conflicting information, had the wrong legal standard (or was at least confused on the correct legal standard), and brought in the accused to testify. And if you don't think an accused testifying at a GJ is unusual, it's borderline unheard of, just ask Scalia.
 
Re: yeah no

OK, thanks for your opinion and the information on the legal process here.

To point 3: the only question I have is how someone gets shot other than in the back while running away?

FWIW, after reading the testimony (not including Wilson's), my belief of what happened is this:

- Wilson drives by two guys in the street, and orders them to the sidewalk.
- The two guys don't obey, he throws the car in reverse, at some point calling for backup, maybe because he thinks he recognizes Brown as the thief, but that's certainly debatable.
- A verbal exchange occurs.
- Wilson attempts to leave the vehicle, but Brown slams the door on him. At this point, whether Wilson reaches out or Brown reaches in, is unclear, however, Brown strikes Wilson and the gun goes off. It is immaterial to me who "starts it" in that regard, because the officer should be allowed to exit the car.
- Brown gets shot in the hand, recoils and takes off.
- Wilson gets out of the car and pursues. Brown realizes he's probably not going to outrun anyone.
- Brown turns around.
- At some point, Brown covered considerable distance moving towards Wilson. My opinion based on testimony is that he is walking, not charging. Wilson orders Brown to stop, even backing away (according to several credible witnesses), before dealing the first round of shots.
- Brown begins stumbling toward the officer (not charging) due to being in shock from gunshot wounds.
- Wilson deals the fatal shots.
- "Witnesses" arrive on the scene, maybe some believe they saw Brown surrendering, but "groupthink" ensues and the "hands up" story is formed right there at the scene, with some "witnesses" even threatening others to go with that narrative.

Thus, Wilson did not need to exercise deadly force after the first round of shots in my opinion, but he also didn't intend to kill Brown when the confrontation started (murder 1), nor was it a crime of anger/passion (murder 2). At best, an indictment for manslaughter would've been appropriate but as you and I have both indicated, indictments for police are rare regardless of the circumstances. I do not believe that Brown intended to surrender, that he put up his hands, or ever fell to his knees until after he was killed because the witness testimony to this account is questionable and/or completely fabricated.

What do you believe the proper indictment would've been? I ask because I'm no lawyer.

I also agree that the DA should've recused himself, not necessarily because he was tainted by events of his past, but because that implication existed in the first place.

Otherwise, I'll leave our disagreement where it stands. We'll see how a civil trial finds, and we both know the DOJ civil case isn't going anywhere because they won't be able to prove that Wilson intended to violate Brown's civil rights.
 
What?

I don't understand your question. He didn't get shot in the back, I didn't say he got shot in the back, I NEVER said he got shot in the back. I said he got shot AT. As in while running away, the officer pulled his gun, fired rounds at him, but apparently, never hitting him.

There were all sorts of unrelated witnesses, some white by the way, who said hands up. "Groupthink" comes from being part of, you know, a group. There's a much smaller "group" that says charging. There's a much smaller "group" that says "backing away" but you find them credible and don't ascribe "groupthink" to them.

I believe some sort of negligent or reckless homicide or unlawful killing charge (I don't know the specifics of Missouri criminal code) would have been the proper indictment. It fits the facts. Although I believe heat of passion was possible (which is what manslaughter usually involves).

Now, conviction would have been hard because BRD is a VERY tough legal standard, but that's not the concern at an indictment, just getting past PC is. if a civil trial ends in liability for him, that is a higher standard than probable cause, so that would show something. Not getting liability does not necessarily because the legal standard for an indictment is lower than the legal standard for civil trial.

This law professor breaks it down very effectively why this was a sham process:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marjorie-cohn/prosecutor-manipulates-grand-jury-to-shield-officer_b_6240578.html


This post was edited on 12/1 4:27 PM by qazplm
 
Re: What?

Originally posted by qazplm:
I don't understand your question. He didn't get shot in the back, I didn't say he got shot in the back, I NEVER said he got shot in the back. I said he got shot AT. As in while running away, the officer pulled his gun, fired rounds at him, but apparently, never hitting him.

There were all sorts of unrelated witnesses, some white by the way, who said hands up. "Groupthink" comes from being part of, you know, a group. There's a much smaller "group" that says charging. There's a much smaller "group" that says "backing away" but you find them credible and don't ascribe "groupthink" to them.

I believe some sort of negligent or reckless homicide or unlawful killing charge (I don't know the specifics of Missouri criminal code) would have been the proper indictment. It fits the facts. Although I believe heat of passion was possible (which is what manslaughter usually involves).

Now, conviction would have been hard because BRD is a VERY tough legal standard, but that's not the concern at an indictment, just getting past PC is. if a civil trial ends in liability for him, that is a higher standard than probable cause, so that would show something. Not getting liability does not necessarily because the legal standard for an indictment is lower than the legal standard for civil trial.

This law professor breaks it down very effectively why this was a sham process:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marjorie-cohn/prosecutor-manipulates-grand-jury-to-shield-officer_b_6240578.html



This post was edited on 12/1 4:27 PM by qazplm
OK, I'm sorry. Didn't read the "at" in your first post, thought I read (or maybe wanted to read) shot, period. Got it.

I don't ascribe groupthink to them because there's no one out there saying that the credible folks got together and made stuff up. Meanwhile, there's quite a few folks who said there was a large group of people spreading the "hands up" story, and in reading much of the "witness" testimony, many of the folks pushing "hands up" were far from credible. In fact, several of them were outright liars or flat out crazy.

Yes, in my estimation, the folks saying Wilson was backing away at one point are more credible than the "hands up" crowd, even though there are fewer of them. I have a hard time believing there were 29 people who saw enough to tell a relevant story anyway, so some of them are lying, and there's plenty of testimony indicating that there was some group interaction and fabrication happening on the scene. Now, maybe it's honest and some people really did think they saw surrendering actions, but color me cynical.

Anyway, thanks for your legal thoughts, particularly on the civil trial. I didn't know anything about how that relates to PC/BRD. Very informative, and frankly I agree that an indictment on a negligent or non-negligent killing (not murder) would've been appropriate, and will be surprised if a civil trial finds in favor of the Brown family. I don't see anyway the DOJ civil investigation goes their way.

No chance in hell I'm reading the Huffington Post. I don't read conservative rags either...
 
here's the problem

he shot AT him while running away, that is, he wasn't advancing, he wasn't attacking, he abdicated whatever role he had in the confrontation.

EVEN if someone wants to argue that the shots that hit him were somehow justified because "he didn't have his hands up" then what justifies the shots at him while fleeing? Any halfway decent, heck any remotely decent attorney would have focused the grand jury on that fact, and thrown in an attempt or heck negligent discharge of a firearm.

The law makes the ability of a cop to shoot a fleeing suspect very narrow. (which is why they gave the GJ an old Missouri law much more favorable to police officers).
 
what?

Statistically the vast majority of blacks are killed by other blacks...and the vast majority of whites are killed by, wait for it, other whites...pretty clear reason why, most people kill someone they know, and most people, unfortunately still racially selectively segregate amongst their friends and family.

So your question about black on white murders is ridiculous.

If you mistyped, and meant to say black on black murders, the idea that no one is "outraged" is pretty silly and shows a pretty strong lack of knowledge on your part because you aren't remotely tuned into the fact that there are marches and all sorts of things dedicated to stopping and reducing crime in black communities, but you don't see it so it must not exist to you.
 
except

he didn't think he was a shoplifter because he lied about that part. Unless you think the chief, who has no motive to fabricate, and made the statement just a couple of days after the shooting that he didn't know about the shoplifting was lying instead?

The first "evidence" that he knew about the shoplifting comes from his lips at the GJ. The ONLY evidence of that comes from his lips at the GJ. The timing of the report of the shoplifting to the time of the confrontation makes it highly unlikely that he knew about it, and there's nothing until the GJ that says he knew about it.

Just like the "he was going for a gun with his hands in his waistband while charging like an animal" it's made-up testimony.
 
Brown wouldn't have been shot if he was white.

Black guy walks around a store with a toy gun, shot dead. Black 12 year old playing with a toy gun just a few days ago, shot dead, they didn't even come to a complete stop in the car before shooting the kid.

White guy walks around with semiautomatic, he gets talked down or even left alone (after all second amendment).

Your nearly complete denial of the fact that there are two realities for blacks and whites is not surprising but it's sad.
 
For those that want to cherry pick a few incidents in an attempt to prove that blacks are targeted by the police more than whites, I offer actual statistics from the U.S. Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, CDC:
-In 2012, 43 million blacks lived in the U.S.
Of those 43 million, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun; compared to 326 whites that were killed by police with a gun that same year.
- In 2013, Blacks committed 5,375 murders; Whites committed 4,396 murders.
Whites are 63% of the population; Blacks are 13%.


This post was edited on 12/1 8:58 PM by hunkgolden
 
Re: here's the problem

Originally posted by qazplm:
he shot AT him while running away, that is, he wasn't advancing, he wasn't attacking, he abdicated whatever role he had in the confrontation.

EVEN if someone wants to argue that the shots that hit him were somehow justified because "he didn't have his hands up" then what justifies the shots at him while fleeing? Any halfway decent, heck any remotely decent attorney would have focused the grand jury on that fact, and thrown in an attempt or heck negligent discharge of a firearm.

The law makes the ability of a cop to shoot a fleeing suspect very narrow. (which is why they gave the GJ an old Missouri law much more favorable to police officers).
The problem, to use your words, with this narrative is that there is no proof that he shot at him while he was running away. Witness testimony differs on this point with, again, the more credible witnesses not recalling gunfire while he's moving away from Wilson. So, after that, this narrative kind of falls apart. Maybe I missed something.

Every witness acknowledges that Brown had his hands raised from his sides at some point, but (again) the more credible witnesses indicated that it appeared he was checking himself for injuries rather than attempting to surrender. One girl's journal entry even says he had his arms out in front of him "with attitude."

The reality is, we'll never know because the witnesses are unreliable probably both ways, and the testimony varies so widely with some of it just being flat out fabricated. The physical evidence is inconclusive in this regard as well.

Otherwise, I'd really encourage you to read the testimony for yourself if you haven't. I just spent another hour re-reading and looking at evidence to see what I missed, and I keep coming back to the point that maybe Brown didn't "charge" Wilson, but the "hands up, surrendering" narrative is a complete fabrication that occurred on the street. I've now read four different witnesses who all support a less-Brown-friendly story who were told to keep quiet, and nearly every witness testimony that claimed he was surrendering turned out to be less than credible.

I'm actually trying to see the other side here, but I'm failing. Edit: and when I use the term "credible", I am referring to witnesses whose testimony does not change, or is not directly refuted, or is not admittedly fabricated or "filled in" with what they heard. I have yet to read a single testimony (and I'm trying here!) which is both credible and indicates that Wilson fired while Brown was running away, nor that Brown had his hands up trying to surrender.

This post was edited on 12/1 9:57 PM by gr8indoorsman
 
Originally posted by hunkgolden:
For those that want to cherry pick a few incidents in an attempt to prove that blacks are targeted by the police more than whites, I offer actual statistics from the U.S. Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, CDC:
-In 2012, 43 million blacks lived in the U.S.
Of those 43 million, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun; compared to 326 whites that were killed by police with a gun that same year.
- In 2013, Blacks committed 5,375 murders; Whites committed 4,396 murders.
Whites are 63% of the population; Blacks are 13%.


This post was edited on 12/1 8:58 PM by hunkgolden
So the black population is about 20% of the white population (13%/63% = 20.6%) and the number of people killed by cops with a gun is 123 blacks and 326 whites, or about 27.4% of those 2 groups killed are blacks when comparing blacks and whites as a whole. Seems to me that cops kill a larger percentage of blacks in proportion to the black/white population as they do whites. So what is your point again? Seems to me that the number of murders committed by each group is irrelevant to your point, unless the cops are vigilante posse groups that just hunt down murderers execution style.

So, maybe you should stay out of the cherry picking business? I think you are better suited to apples and oranges.
 
Originally posted by TheCainer:



Originally posted by hunkgolden:
For those that want to cherry pick a few incidents in an attempt to prove that blacks are targeted by the police more than whites, I offer actual statistics from the U.S. Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, CDC:
-In 2012, 43 million blacks lived in the U.S.
Of those 43 million, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun; compared to 326 whites that were killed by police with a gun that same year.
- In 2013, Blacks committed 5,375 murders; Whites committed 4,396 murders.
Whites are 63% of the population; Blacks are 13%.




This post was edited on 12/1 8:58 PM by hunkgolden
So the black population is about 20% of the white population (13%/63% = 20.6%) and the number of people killed by cops with a gun is 123 blacks and 326 whites, or about 27.4% of those 2 groups killed are blacks when comparing blacks and whites as a whole. Seems to me that cops kill a larger percentage of blacks in proportion to the black/white population as they do whites. So what is your point again? Seems to me that the number of murders committed by each group is irrelevant to your point, unless the cops are vigilante posse groups that just hunt down murderers execution style.

So, maybe you should stay out of the cherry picking business? I think you are better suited to apples and oranges.
Which is why I included the figures about how many blacks commit murders vs. whites you effin dumbass. I thought even someone as stupid as you would be able to figure out what type of situations the police are called to in black neighborhoods when they only constitute 13% of the population yet murder more people than whites who make up 63% of the population.

Yeah - you're not clearly as smart as you think you are and you're even dumber than I thought you were. Congrats on that.

This post was edited on 12/1 10:45 PM by hunkgolden
 
Originally posted by TheCainer:

Originally posted by hunkgolden:
For those that want to cherry pick a few incidents in an attempt to prove that blacks are targeted by the police more than whites, I offer actual statistics from the U.S. Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, CDC:
-In 2012, 43 million blacks lived in the U.S.
Of those 43 million, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun; compared to 326 whites that were killed by police with a gun that same year.
- In 2013, Blacks committed 5,375 murders; Whites committed 4,396 murders.
Whites are 63% of the population; Blacks are 13%.


This post was edited on 12/1 8:58 PM by hunkgolden
So the black population is about 20% of the white population (13%/63% = 20.6%) and the number of people killed by cops with a gun is 123 blacks and 326 whites, or about 27.4% of those 2 groups killed are blacks when comparing blacks and whites as a whole. Seems to me that cops kill a larger percentage of blacks in proportion to the black/white population as they do whites. So what is your point again? Seems to me that the number of murders committed by each group is irrelevant to your point, unless the cops are vigilante posse groups that just hunt down murderers execution style.

So, maybe you should stay out of the cherry picking business? I think you are better suited to apples and oranges.

Pretty clearly his point is blacks commit an outsize portion of violent crimes throughout the country vs. whites.
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Oh boy, that article starts off ok but loses credibility fast

-It brings up the testimony of Johnson. I think by now people should know that Johnson has admitted to running home and changing clothes, coming back, so he could not be identified, and was involved in collaboration of spreading the hands up story.. That is the main witness? Yeah-good luck. Him and his friends have changed their story. I have sat on juries and courts martials before. I or another juror hear something like that, and right or wrong, whatever he or she says is dismissed. In reality, one does not even know if Johnson saw the tragedy in question.

A police officer in Missouri can use deadly force in making an arrest or
preventing escape if he reasonably believes it is necessary to effect
the arrest and also reasonably believes the person to be arrested has
committed or attempted to commit a felony, or may otherwise endanger
life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.
The key word is "reasonably."


Case closed in my opinion. The author of the article chooses to focus on the cigarillos and unfortunately forgets that Brown had assaulted an officer and went for his gun. The assault and battery in this case when looking at damage done is likely only a misdemeanor. That Brown went for the gun makes it a felony.

The article then goes on to mention arguments made by an Ezra Cox, which state that Brown is headed off to college. What does that have to do with anything? Just shows their extreme bias. If she does that, then bring up the fact that he smoked weed and has a juvenile record.

This post was edited on 12/2 9:03 AM by Purdue97
 
Re: Oh boy, that article starts off ok but loses credibility fast

Most of the actual witnesses said Johnson ran the other direction and hid behind a Monte Carlo the whole time, then ran home.
 
Equality

It has obviously poisoned his mind.

That he only notices that cops disproportionately shoot blacks compared to whites is proof of it. There's simply no possible justification for the cops behaving this way. It must be racism. It must be an indictment of America. It can't possibly have anything to do with differing behaviors. Because we all behave equally.

Except when whites behave worse.
 
Re: what?

So your question about black on white murders is ridiculous.

No, it isn't. The left (including the MSM, the entertainment industry, the education industry, Democrats, social justice warriors, etc.) would have us believe that blacks are killed by whites far more often than vice versa. As usual, they've got it precisely backwards.

The homicide rate, and the violent crime rate, by blacks against whites is far, far higher than vice versa. Yet there's no outrage. That wouldn't be allowed because of course it would be racist. No lectures to blacks about how they have to change their ways. No indictments of black leaders or other leftists who've "created a climate of violence and hostility".

Instead they hype incidents like this to portray whites and America as a land of racist oppression where whites, especially white cops, can kill innocent, angelic blacks with impunity.
 
first off

I ignored the testimony of Johnson. You don't need the testimony of Johnson.

Second, you completely ignore the valid questions about Wilson's testimony because, well, you want to, because you see no reason to ask questions about Wilson's testimony.
 
not true

first of all, there is truth:

1. We know he shot more shots than hit him, and more than just the one or two that he says he fired in the car.
2. We have witnesses who said he shot at him while he was running away.

Yes you've missed something. You seem to want to portray all witnesses who say anything against Wilson as not credible on anything they say. MOST witnesses are credible about some aspects, and not credible about other aspects (or to say it better, they are right about somethings and clearly mistaken about others). There are FIFTEEN witnesses who say he fired at Brown while he was running away. There are five that say he wasn't. That's 3-1. Let's say HALF of those folks aren't credible. That still leaves a majority and we know the standard is probable cause.

Why is it hard to believe that after trying to shoot him in the car, then getting out of the car to go after him, that he shot at him as he ran away? I don't know how you have your arms out in front of you "with attitude" that a witness can see from far away yet you label that as "credible."
 
I'll say it again

slowly, just for you.

The vast majority of blacks are killed by other blacks. The vast majority of whites are killed by whites.

84% of white murder victims were killed by whites. 93% of black murder victims were killed by blacks. This is data from 1980 to 2008 according to the DOJ.

Only a racist looks at those numbers and sees anything remotely like what you see, but we already know what you are.
 
So will I

Only people with an anti-white agenda would turn what happened in Ferguson into an example of how racist America is, how blacks are mistreated, and how white cops can get away with murdering innocent black people.

Only a racist looks at those numbers and sees anything remotely like what you see.....

Exactly. It takes a "racist" to see through the phony racial agendas of the left.
 
another point

it isn't the case that if you just committed a felony that's all it takes. that's why it USED to be the "fleeing felon" rule but no longer is. that is you USED to be able to shoot to kill a fleeing felon simply because they were someone who had committed a felony and were now fleeing.

Now, you have to believe that fleeing felony is reasonably a threat to inflict deadly or serious physical injury on someone else.
There's no evidence to believe that when he's running away that's what's going to happen next EVEN if you take the first half of Wilson's stmt as complete truth.
 
Re: not true



Originally posted by qazplm:
first of all, there is truth:

1. We know he shot more shots than hit him, and more than just the one or two that he says he fired in the car.
2. We have witnesses who said he shot at him while he was running away.

Yes you've missed something. You seem to want to portray all witnesses who say anything against Wilson as not credible on anything they say. MOST witnesses are credible about some aspects, and not credible about other aspects (or to say it better, they are right about somethings and clearly mistaken about others). There are FIFTEEN witnesses who say he fired at Brown while he was running away. There are five that say he wasn't. That's 3-1. Let's say HALF of those folks aren't credible. That still leaves a majority and we know the standard is probable cause.

Why is it hard to believe that after trying to shoot him in the car, then getting out of the car to go after him, that he shot at him as he ran away? I don't know how you have your arms out in front of you "with attitude" that a witness can see from far away yet you label that as "credible."
I am not guessing at which ones are credible and which ones are not. I have actually read their testimony. Yes, more say that he was running away and being shot at. If you stop reading the testimony there, you think, "Man, Wilson's a bad guy." When you get down to the parts where the police are asking about details, many of them change their story, admit they didn't actually see shots fired while running away, nor that he had his hands up. Most of them, in fact, admit they didn't really see anything, but that they heard shots fired, and they heard something else was happening. I've spent almost four hours reading witness testimony - not blogs or news reports, the actual documents - and yes, I am comfortable saying that I have not found one credible witness statement for the "hands up" or "running away while being shot at" story. So, 15 people repeated a certain narrative, but I have yet to find a single one of them who actually witnessed it happening that way with their own two eyes whose testimony holds up under questioning.

I invite you to point me to one that I may have missed. Not an article written by someone with a bias, but an actual document from the investigation. Raw numbers of who says what don't matter one bit in light of the testimony that the group that arrived on the scene afterwards began pushing the "hands up" narrative, going so far as to threaten people who saw otherwise to keep quiet. At least three separate actual eyewitnesses attested to this.
 
non-sequitur response

try to at least stay in the realm of what's discussed please, thanks.
 
Re: another point

Originally posted by qazplm:

Now, you have to believe that fleeing felony is reasonably a threat to inflict deadly or serious physical injury on someone else.
I agree that there is no reason to believe Brown was a threat to anyone else, thus *IF* Wilson was firing while he was running away - which I do not believe to be the case - he should not be justified in doing so.

That said, yesterday you mentioned that you weren't familiar with the ins-and-outs of Missouri law. Are you certain that Missouri doesn't still have the "Fleeing Felon" law? FWIW, if they do, I would agree that it should be changed to "intent/capability to harm others", kind of like collective self-defense ROE.
 
Has nothing to do with

"Man, Wilson's a bad guy." The question is, is there probable cause to believe that he shot at Brown while he was running away or not. Not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, not even more likely than not, just probable cause.

When you have 15 people say yes, that happen, odds are slim that all 15 "aren't credible."
When you have a volume of missed shots, odds are slim that none of them were fired while the kid was running away.

Your bias is showing. You've found reasons to believe every single witness is not credible. The reality is FEW people don't change their stories in some detail and few people's testimony stands up fully to rigorous cross exam. That's why we lawyers get paid big bucks (well I don't but I will in a few years when I retire). I've easily turned minor discrepancies into big ones (and I've also smoothed over large discrepancies into small ones). When you have attorneys cross examining the folks against Wilson, and gently examining those not favorable, then what do you think you end up getting?

I don't have time at this point to go through witnesses, I can do so later when not at work. By the way, if you see someone running away, then hear shots, then see the kid turn around, or even hear shots, then see the kid turning around, you don't actually have to see the shots fired to know it happened while the kid was running away.

What is interesting is, most people think they can read testimony or watch someone testify and judge whether they are telling the truth or not, but the studies show no one actually can, not even trained professionals (police, interrogators, etc) on more than a coin flip basis. We live on that "lie" because if there's no way to actually accurately judge credibility then you have to simply pick the most "fair" coin flip you have, and that's having a jury watch someone testify.
 
Re: except

Originally posted by qazplm:
he didn't think he was a shoplifter because he lied about that part. Unless you think the chief, who has no motive to fabricate, and made the statement just a couple of days after the shooting that he didn't know about the shoplifting was lying instead?

The first "evidence" that he knew about the shoplifting comes from his lips at the GJ. The ONLY evidence of that comes from his lips at the GJ. The timing of the report of the shoplifting to the time of the confrontation makes it highly unlikely that he knew about it, and there's nothing until the GJ that says he knew about it.
That's not true. The radio traffic indicates that Wilson was involved in discussions about the theft, and in fact said over radio that he was in the area and able to respond. He called in asking for a second car if one was in the area. Shortly thereafter, the calls for "crowd control" stating "we're going to have a problem" came in from a second car. It's right there in the radio log available by the documents.

Wilson was obviously aware of the robbery. Whether or not he positively identified Brown as the suspect can't be known other than reading his testimony (which I haven't, and wouldn't believe anyway). But to say he had no knowledge of it and is lying is obviously false because there's recorded radio traffic evidence of him involved in conversation about the robbery prior to the shootings.

Again, go look at this stuff for yourself. It's all there.
 
I am sure

because the change to the "fleeing felon" rule was done by the Supremes, so unless Missouri has seceded...
 
Tell that to your fellow leftists

You know, the ones who made this case into something it was not. Which resulted in falsehoods being spread, a police officer's life in danger, looting, rioting, etc.
 
Re: Has nothing to do with

What witness testimony have you read which you consider fully credible that attests to gunshots as Wilson is running away? Give me a witness number. I'll go read it and judge for myself. Give me a witness number.

My reasons for not being credible aren't biased. They're common sense. For example, when someone tells the investigator their full story, then the investigator asks detailed questions and their story changes, or they admit they didn't actually witness any of it, yes, I consider that witness incredible.

You may believe this or not, but I've spent a lot of time reading this stuff independent of any news show or blog because I purposely want to be informed and make my own decision. There's not a doubt in my mind that a large portion of the witnesses are lying, not because that's what Fox News says, but because that's what their testimony and the physical evidence points to.
 
Re: I am sure



Originally posted by qazplm:
because the change to the "fleeing felon" rule was done by the Supremes, so unless Missouri has seceded...
Thanks. I didn't know, so was asking an expert. (For once in my life, I'm not trying to be an ass to you in this thread, failing though I might be in your eyes.)
 
Originally posted by qazplm:
Brown wouldn't have been shot if he was white.

Black guy walks around a store with a toy gun, shot dead. Black 12 year old playing with a toy gun just a few days ago, shot dead, they didn't even come to a complete stop in the car before shooting the kid.

White guy walks around with semiautomatic, he gets talked down or even left alone (after all second amendment).

Your nearly complete denial of the fact that there are two realities for blacks and whites is not surprising but it's sad.
I think if a 300lb white man punched a cop in the face and was perceived as "charging" whether he was or not, he would've been shot dead in the street.

I do not deny two realities for whites and blacks, but I don't think Mike Brown was shot because he was black. I think he was shot because he assaulted a police officer, and that police officer believed (rightly or wrongly) that his life was in danger.

I think the Trayvon Martin case is a much better example for two realities. I think Mike Brown is a completely inappropriate, manufactured martyr for this otherwise worthy, well-founded, and righteous cause.
This post was edited on 12/2 4:56 PM by gr8indoorsman
 
Re: another point

Ok thanks. In my opinion, if an individual had just attacked a police officer, went for his gun, which forensics indicates his hand was in the car or near the weapon, I would likely believe that this guy might have really gone off the deep end and would inflict harm on another.
 
Re: first off

No, not because I want to. The reality is forensics largely backs up, or makes what he(Wilson) says at least somewhat believable. The testimony against him is shown to be fabricated, second hand, now publicly known to be coerced, or not backed up by forensics.

That said, I do not think for a second we will ever know what actually happened.
 
This does not fit here

Was not sure where else to put it. Found this article interesting. Does this seem probable or likely? Do judges look at evidence before they decide to do this?

Judge can get another hearing
 
Re: another point

FWIW I don't think Brown was going for his gun. That's so unlikely I find it hard to believe. I believe Brown was probably attempting to prevent Wilson from drawing his weapon, and that's when he got shot.
 
I dont know what you mean

by "fully credible." I honestly don't. You show me someone you think is "fully credible" and I can usually find some bias, or some niblet they've said that's different. So you'll have to explain to me what you mean by that first.
I'll say it again, everyone who testifies has "changes" to their stories. Try and tell the truth, record it, wait months, then tell it again, and tell me if there aren't changes.

Witnesses rarely "lie." They may exaggerate, they may misremember, they may get confused, or they simply may not have seen what they thought they saw for all the reasons that recall can trick us and the brain/eye isn't a camera...but you rarely see in my experience out and out lies, and you never see two dozen plus people most of whom don't know each other all lying.

I literally just walked in the door, so I'd have to go back and look at witness testimony. So I'm not going to be able to give a number now, but later.
 
I have no idea

it would boil down to this particular judge and how comfortable she is interjecting herself into this process. Does she agree that the DA was too defense-friendly? Even if she does, does she think the ultimate result was correct (thus his bias ends up having no real effect). Does she think the process needs a more neutral look for the purpose of restoring faith and confidence in the system? I dunno. So I have no idea if it's probable or likely.

I suspect IF she were even considering this, she wouldn't be looking at evidence so much as trying to decide the things I talked about above. We don't have a similar process in the military per se, but, if one commanding general decides not to go forward in a sexual assault case, that can be overruled by another, higher commander. And let's say our equivalent of a grand jury, a UCMJ Article 32 hearing, decides to recommend not to go forward, the commanding general can override that. Different system, but when a CG decides to do that, he does it based on advice from his senior attorney and usually after some examination of the evidence (or trusting his senior attorney's staff's examination of the evidence and advice).
 
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