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Biggie vs Happ

TC4THREE said:
He is so much better than Swanigan on defense it's not even funny. And Wisconsin is the best team in the conference by rank and by record. They may not have the highest ceiling but I don't know how you can go against the evidence on the court. Like the old saying goes....You are what your record says you are.
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And Swanigan is so much better on offense, and SO much better from a rebounding standpoint, that it is even less funny...Happ gets away with murder in terms of grabbing, holding and shoving which he translates into steals...he is a good player...a very good player, but there is no way that Swanigan is not the B1G POTY.

They are only the best team by rank due to their record...they have beaten virtually nobody of any consequence, and Purdue flat out dominated them...they have the best record, but it is a result of their schedule...not of their quality.

They are one of the three best teams in the conference...I don't believe that they are the best team...whether they are or not is certainly debatable, but your point was that Happ would/should be B1G POTY due to being the best player on the best team...which is a case I guess, but I feel like not only is Swanigan the best player on what I believe to be the best team, but he is the best player in the conference regardless...which is why he is up for consideration as the best player in the country, and Happ is not evena remote consideration for such.
 
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DG10 said:
And Swanigan is so much better on offense, and SO much better from a rebounding standpoint, that it is even less funny...Happ gets away with murder in terms of grabbing, holding and shoving which he translates into steals...he is a good player...a very good player, but there is no way that Swanigan is not the B1G POTY.

They are only the best team by rank due to their record...they have beaten virtually nobody of any consequence, and Purdue flat out dominated them...they have the best record, but it is a result of their schedule...not of their quality.

They are one of the three best teams in the conference...I don't believe that they are the best team...whether they are or not is certainly debatable, but your point was that Happ would/should be B1G POTY due to being the best player on the best team...which is a case I guess, but I feel like not only is Swanigan the best player on what I believe to be the best team, but he is the best player in the conference regardless...which is why he is up for consideration as the best player in the country, and Happ is not evena remote consideration for such.
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Actually I said that I think Swanigan should get it. I was just stating that Happ has a case. It seems you disagree and that's fine but nothing you can say will change my mind that he is a legitimate candidate.
 
TC4THREE said:
Actually I said that I think Swanigan should get it. I was just stating that Happ has a case. It seems you disagree and that's fine but nothing you can say will change my mind that he is a legitimate candidate.
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Happ is a candidate for certain...and deservedly so. I really like the guy...I liked him last year, and, like Caleb, he has improved a great deal from a year ago...he is yet another of the "perfect Wisconsin guy" and is a very good player at both ends of the floor...somebody else in the thread had referenced Brad Miller, and that is not a bad comparison, although Happ does not have the range that Miller did (or has not shown it at least).

Happ can make a case, but so can a handful of others in the conference...nobody has a better case though than Swanigan and nobody has been a better player.
 
DG10 said:
Happ is a candidate for certain...and deservedly so. I really like the guy...I liked him last year, and, like Caleb, he has improved a great deal from a year ago...he is yet another of the "perfect Wisconsin guy" and is a very good player at both ends of the floor...somebody else in the thread had referenced Brad Miller, and that is not a bad comparison, although Happ does not have the range that Miller did (or has not shown it at least).

Happ can make a case, but so can a handful of others in the conference...nobody has a better case though than Swanigan and nobody has been a better player.
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I saw similarities to Brad...in play and how both were guards at one time
 
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Per Ken Pom and how they do their POY metrics, Caleb is 2nd for National POY currently and Happ is surprisingly (at least to me) 4th! Josh Hart is leading.
 
TC4THREE said:
He is so much better than Swanigan on defense it's not even funny. And Wisconsin is the best team in the conference by rank and by record. They may not have the highest ceiling but I don't know how you can go against the evidence on the court. Like the old saying goes....You are what your record says you are.
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Swanigan's defense isn't great but he has active hands (see his steal from Trimble). Swanigan plays very basic defense (wall up and make them shoot over you) in an effort to avoid fouls. Also, the discrepancy between their offense is just as pronounced as their defensive games. Swanigan is a threat to score from anywhere in the half-court whereas Happ is only a threat within 6-8 feet of the hoop.
 
dumpsterFyre said:
Biggie by far right now as a college 4/5. Happ at the NBA level where he can play 3/4.
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You do realize that the 3/4 in the NBA has to be able to shoot outside of 5 feet don't you? Happ cannot shoot whatsoever

Edit: Just realized this has been pointed out already
 
Biggie is hand's down the BTPOY right now but they have to create some controversy or excitement and Happ is the only other player currently who would deserve to be in the conversation. It shouldn't even be close at this point but there is no fun for the media in a 1 man race.
 
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BoilerStation said:
I feel like half of the sports writers and media members these days base their opinions on what can generate the biggest reaction. Nearly every headline you read especially when dealing with politics is somebody owning somebody with some small meaningless action. To me this is no different.
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You can dismiss it if you want but I tend to believe this is actually what he thinks. The case for Happ is better than some here think.
 
I can't believe this is even a discussion? Cadillac vs. the best Chevy. Batman vs. Robin. Superman vs. Lex Luthor. Its just a ridiculous discussion.....
 
TC4THREE said:
You can dismiss it if you want but I tend to believe this is actually what he thinks. The case for Happ is better than some here think.
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Outside of Wisconsin currently having a better record in the league there is zero case for Happ over Biggie at this point. Is he a first team all big ten player? Of course he is but Biggie stands alone at the top with no challengers. 1 single big ten game where he didn't get a double double and only had 8 boards in the game. The 5 times he's been named BT player of the week is way ahead of Happ. Happ is a better defender but he also gets to slap and reach all game long in every game he plays. Biggie has to go out of his way to avoid fouls because he is more important to the team and simply isn't allowed to play the way that Happ is. I'll stick to my guns about the conference not being as exciting when it is a 1 man race and they are trying to create more excitement and controversy.
 
BoilerStation said:
Outside of Wisconsin currently having a better record in the league there is zero case for Happ over Biggie at this point. Is he a first team all big ten player? Of course he is but Biggie stands alone at the top with no challengers. 1 single big ten game where he didn't get a double double and only had 8 boards in the game. The 5 times he's been named BT player of the week is way ahead of Happ. Happ is a better defender but he also gets to slap and reach all game long in every game he plays. Biggie has to go out of his way to avoid fouls because he is more important to the team and simply isn't allowed to play the way that Happ is. I'll stick to my guns about the conference not being as exciting when it is a 1 man race and they are trying to create more excitement and controversy.
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Stick to your guns. Doesn't make you right.
 
NVBoilerFan said:
He is 100% right. Not only does Biggie win the eyeball test easily, he wins the stats test by a wide margin too.
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There are some of you that will never look at it objectively and that's fine. I don't disagree that Swanigan should win but when you say it isn't close right now you are showing your ignorance and bias.
 
TC4THREE said:
There are some of you that will never look at it objectively and that's fine. I don't disagree that Swanigan should win but when you say it isn't close right now you are showing your ignorance and bias.
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Objectively looking at all things it should not be close. Happ is #2 but that doesn't mean he should be considered to actually win the award.
 
TC4THREE said:
http://btn.com/2017/02/06/dienhart-heres-my-midseason-report-all-big-ten-teams/

Dienhart gives his vote to Happ at this point.
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Which is only more verification of the fact that Dienhart is a total dumba$$.

Again, there is no case to be made...it is a no-brainer (which only makes it more odd that Dienhart apparently does not get it).

Happ is a very nice player...and he is perfect for the Wisconsin system...but he is not the best player in the conference and he is not near the player that Caleb is.
 
TC4THREE said:
There are some of you that will never look at it objectively and that's fine. I don't disagree that Swanigan should win but when you say it isn't close right now you are showing your ignorance and bias.
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it's not close. let it go.
 
BoilerStation said:
Objectively looking at all things it should not be close. Happ is #2 but that doesn't mean he should be considered to actually win the award.
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Never said he should. My vote still goes to Swanigan. Doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that Happ is the best player on the best team in the league as things stand right now. Doesn't mean that he isn't much better defensively. Doesn't mean that I don't count off for Swanigan turnovers (just like I do for free throws on Happ). Doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge how some can make a plausible case for Happ.
 
So Biggie who is considered in the top 3 or 4 for national player of the year isn't the hands down favorite to win his own conference award? I can totally see how that makes us all blind homers who don't understand basketball.
 
BoilerStation said:
So Biggie who is considered in the top 3 or 4 for national player of the year isn't the hands down favorite to win his own conference award? I can totally see how that makes us all blind homers who don't understand basketball.
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Is it that difficult to believe that a major conference would have two high-level players? It shouldn't. Happens most years in some conference or another. Again, you have to follow college basketball to understand that though.
 
iramsey said:
Okay, maybe I am biased but I just don't see the comparison. Happ is a good player, don't get me wrong, but I don't think anyone can beat out Swanigan for B1G POY at this point. Biggie brings three point shooting and stretches the floor, something Happ can't do.
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I question whether Happ is even the best player on his team. I e-mailed Dienhart and asked him if he was crazy or is he blind to choose Happ over BIGGIE. That was absolutely nuts.
 
TC4THREE said:
No. I will continue to state my case. You saying "it's not close" doesn't mean anything other than you are a blind homer or don't understand basketball.
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You think a dude that shoots worse than my mom at the free throw line compares to a potential NPOY/BTPOY/ first rounder with 20 double doubles? Get over yourself!
 
TC4THREE said:
Is it that difficult to believe that a major conference would have two high-level players? It shouldn't. Happens most years in some conference or another. Again, you have to follow college basketball to understand that though.
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Please refer me to my post stating Happ wasn't a high level player or that he wasn't #2 in the running? Guess what there are MORE than just 2 high level players in the conference but if you followed college basketball at all you would understand that.
 
boiler800 said:
I question whether Happ is even the best player on his team. I e-mailed Dienhart and asked him if he was crazy or is he blind to choose Happ over BIGGIE. That was absolutely nuts.
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While I agree with you that Caleb is way ahead of Happ for POTY. Happ is the best player on his team. He leads the team in every major category except FT%.
 
TC4THREE said:
Happ is much better defensively and is the best player on what has so far been the best team. I think he has a case. That said I still think Swanigan should get the nod if the season ended right now.
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How many double doubles does Happ have? How many B1G Player of the Week awards does Happ have? Case closed...Biggie wins hands down.
 
boiler800 said:
How many double doubles does Happ have? How many B1G Player of the Week awards does Happ have? Case closed...Biggie wins hands down.
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When did double-doubles become the only criteria? Frankly, I'd much rather Caleb have fewer double-doubles and play better defense or take care of the basketball better. Those things matter too.
 
TopSecretBoiler said:
You think a dude that shoots worse than my mom at the free throw line compares to a potential NPOY/BTPOY/ first rounder with 20 double doubles? Get over yourself!
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Way to nitpick the flaw of Happ while ignoring how poorly Swanigan plays defense or turns the ball over. Does your mom play better post defense than Swanigan? Take care of the ball better?
 
TC4THREE said:
When did double-doubles become the only criteria? Frankly, I'd much rather Caleb have fewer double-doubles and play better defense or take care of the basketball better. Those things matter too.
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The TO's are one thing but he has to be conservative on defense because Purdue only has 2 post options and Haas can't handle a heavy load as far as minutes go. The exta block are steal or preventing a basket or two more don't outweigh the output we get from him actually staying in the game compared to being on the bench strapped with fouls. Our guards don't stop the ball very well which sets up our big men to pick up cheap fouls constantly. It's why we struggle with teams who have athletic ball handlers who get to the basket.
 
BoilerStation said:
The TO's are one thing but he has to be conservative on defense because Purdue only has 2 post options and Haas can't handle a heavy load as far as minutes go. The exta block are steal or preventing a basket or two more don't outweigh the output we get from him actually staying in the game compared to being on the bench strapped with fouls. Our guards don't stop the ball very well which sets up our big men to pick up cheap fouls constantly. It's why we struggle with teams who have athletic ball handlers who get to the basket.
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What you say is true but that just exacerbates the original problem that he is not very good defensively. Avoiding fouls without being a sieve is part of being a good defender.
 
TC4THREE said:
Way to nitpick the flaw of Happ while ignoring how poorly Swanigan plays defense or turns the ball over. Does your mom play better post defense than Swanigan? Take care of the ball better?
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THE flaw? wow. Ya that's his only flaw. I remember Swani shooting 70% against Whisky. Must have been that amazing Happ defense.
 
TC4THREE said:
Never said he should. My vote still goes to Swanigan. Doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that Happ is the best player on the best team in the league as things stand right now. Doesn't mean that he isn't much better defensively. Doesn't mean that I don't count off for Swanigan turnovers (just like I do for free throws on Happ). Doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge how some can make a plausible case for Happ.
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TC I think you are just arguing to argue again. First you say is it close. Then you state you never said happ should be considered to actually win. Well if he is not considered to actually win, then it isn't close.

We all know it is CS's to lose. Dienhart is just fishing for clicks. It worked because I clicked the article. It also doesn't take away from Happ because he is an excellent player.
 
TC4THREE said:
What you say is true but that just exacerbates the original problem that he is not very good defensively. Avoiding fouls without being a sieve is part of being a good defender.
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Avoiding fouls is part skill and part luck. You are at the mercy of the officials. If we wanted to go back and watch every single game of both Happ's and Biggies using the definition of a foul it would be apparent who benefits from the refs. Happ fouls at a vastly increased rate compared to Biggie but is not called for him. Just like Craft and Kramer to name a couple over the years some players get away with considerably more than others. Is it Biggie's fault he is not allowed to play as physcially as another player? No it isn't just like it isn't Isaac's fault he is abused nonstop in every game yet doesn't receive the calls.
Take Biggie and Issac off our teams and throw Happ into the middle instead and he would be giving up way more points and fouling out. The thing about great defenders is they usually have other good defenders around them. I don't think anybody would debate saying Wisconsin is worse on defense compared to us. It's not just Happ making them better and it's not just Biggie making us a poor defensive team.
 
boilernuke said:
TC I think you are just arguing to argue again. First you say is it close. Then you state you never said happ should be considered to actually win. Well if he is not considered to actually win, then it isn't close.

We all know it is CS's to lose. Dienhart is just fishing for clicks. It worked because I clicked the article. It also doesn't take away from Happ because he is an excellent player.
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I don't think I ever said nobody should consider Happ to win. If I did, and I don't remember saying that, I certainly didn't mean to say or imply that. That's been my entire point.

Swanigan gets my vote but I wouldn't argue if Happ won. In fact, free throws is the one reason why I would keep Swanigan ahead of him. If he shot 70% from the line then I would probably give the nod to Happ. People on this board focus on Swanigan's strengths and glance over the weak parts of his game and vice versa with Happ.
 
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