13 in AP Poll
- Thread starter saratogashaw
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Lunardi also has Purdue as a 4 seed in Milwaukee. Moving on up a bit in the eyes of the professionals...still think it's a bit low as it places Purdue in the #1 overall seed bracket. Lunardi still leaves Butler as a 3 seed....again, dumb.
I still believe if Purdue wins the BTT they will definitely be a 3
Duke moves up 3 spots despite losing in CH. Has Purdue EVER moved up or even stayed the same after losing a game the previous week? I doubt it.
This is what Izzo was talking about in his press conference the other day. We've allowed the media to control the narrative. Virginia loses a game to someone ranked below them then it's portrayed as being because the ACC is loaded. If Purdue/Wisconsin/Maryland lose a game to a mid-level team and it's portrayed as the Big Ten being weak at the top.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't think the Big Ten has a legitimate top ten team right now and if we do I think Purdue is it. That said, I think the middle and lower part of the ACC gets vastly overrated for what they accomplish. I mean, IU smoked UNC in Bloomington this year. ND and Louisville tied for 2nd and we dropped the former on a neutral court and lost to the latter on their court. Minnesota dropped a game at FSU. Doesn't mean that Minnesota wouldn't have won at home or a neutral court. Yet the media perception is that the Big Ten can't stack up and the ACC is one of the best conferences ever. Consequently, they'll get seeded for success in the NCAAT and have a much easier path to get teams to the S16 and beyond.
I agree with everything you've written here -- but when you say, "We've allowed the media to control the narrative." Who is/are "we"? Ever since the Selection Committee announced the preliminary top-16 seeds, there have been debates on this board about whether the committee and/or the media are biased against the B1G. I'd say at least half the fans on here have argued there is no such bias! B1G fans and the midwest media tend to be pretty objective, IMO, because they don't feel threatened, so they just take the anti-B1G $hit piled on by the national media. But go to the parochial south and see how their fans and their local media react to a little disrespect! They go nuts and counter attack, because they know the national narrative has a lot to say about seeding, and seeding sets up some for success and others for failure.
The narrative now on Wisconsin's omission from that top 16 is that the Committee was right about the B1G!
NO ONE in the media is saying that Wisconsin's recent struggles reflect improvement in the mid-tier B1G teams!
They were tied around the 6:00 mark to mighty UNC on the road....that counts for a win. Too much of a task to beat ol Roy and MJ in Chapel Hill.
I guess I was referring to it from the same perspective as Izzo was. From the Big Ten perspective. Coaches, players, media, and even fans to some extent.
I understand, and wasn't being critical. I was just trying to get at how/why "we let it happen." IMO, it's because B1G fans do not tend to advocate for the conference, or even for our own team sometimes. Look at the BTN, their reaction to being snubbed by the committee was purely clinical. The Atlantic coast or southern media would have gone berzerk had the ACC or SEC been similarly disrespected, regardless of whether they believed it was objectively justified. B1G fans, media, and the BTN, don't seem to understand that this is not an objective national debate about the relative strength of conferences. It's a process of advocacy, nationally, that hugely influences seedings.
Butler has beat Cincy, Zona and Nova twice. That's 3 wins vs. top 10 and 4 vs. top 15. Our best wins are 3 teams ranked in the 22-25 range. They are one game behind us against a much harder schedule (8th for Butler, 54 for us).
Everything you mention is circular logic. Of course Butler's schedule is ranked tougher when they played Nova twice and the whole B1G is underrated. Wisconsin was top 10 when we beat 'em, but you don't mention that. Nova loses to Butler -- that must mean Butler is great! It couldn't mean Nova is slipping! But Wisconsin slips and it means Wisconsin was never any good -- couldn't mean B1G has improved. Butler loses to The HALL: no problem, Butler beat Nova, and we all know they're great! Butler beat Cincy and we beat ND. But Butler is great and Purdue isn't ... because they beat Zona. Would Purdue not have beaten Zona too? So Pudue effectively lost a game -- to Zona -- they didn't even play?!
Thanks for explaining how ESPN, Joe Lunardi, and the whole ACC sees it, and for demonstrating how "we let it happen."
Well hell why play 30 games. Schedule a couple games against really high ranked teams and play the Tourney in Jan. Could do 2 seasons a year then.
Bilas made one of your points, with which I agree.....assign a value to a win/loss at the time the game is played.
I don't understand that. You get more information about a team as the season goes along. There is no reason to pretend that Wisconsin is a legitimate top 10 win right now. They won and got lucky often early in the conference season and climbed the rankings but it caught up with them and they revealed themselves. No reason to pretend that beating Wisconsin in January when they were ranked 7th is the equivalent of beating Arizona today who is ranked 7th now.
Does IPFW get credit for beating the #3 team in the country when they beat IU just because the season was young and nobody had the read on Indiana yet? Makes no sense to make that win the equivalent of what someone else would get credit for going out and beating UCLA (currently #3) this week.
Yea assigning a value to a win/loss as suggested doesn't make sense to me and you listed good examples why it doesn't.
But Louisville is "legit Top 10 team with 7 total losses and 2 recent losses to Syracuse and Wake? Why assume Wisconsin is so bad now? They looked darn good last night against Minne! Teams get hot and cold through the season -- as do players. Should a road loss to OSU and a home lose to Iowa erase 2 months of success?
The answer is: Yes, if you're a B1G team, and No, if you're a ACC or Big East team. It's that simple.
It's not just 2 losses. They lost 5 out of 6 prior to last night. Their slippage was well earned.
Wow....set off another firestorm.
I hear your arguments; I'm in the minority on that, I know.....one of his subtle points about it was that it shows an indication of how that team prepared and played for that particular game under those circumstances. Does that really change if Team X suddenly turned out better or worse? There is some fluidity to it, but it's a way of balancing out other factors. I guess I know I'm in trouble when I start agreeing with Bilas more often than not. That's also not to say a win over #3 in December is worth the same as a win over #3 in March. It's also putting more emphasis on the latter part of the season, which is what the Committee used to do.
I get it, though....a good win might not really be a good win, and a bad loss might not really be a bad loss.....and a good loss could really be a bad loss, and a good win could end up just being ok......stay tuned.
Maybe it will be better when RPI is not such a huge factor.
You're the one who brought up the business about "we let it happen." And there you go, being objective. Do you think ACC fans are objective?! No way! They advocate! Being objective means your conference and your team never get the benefit of a favorable interpretation in the national narrative.
Wisconsin lost 5/6 to NW, at Michigan, at MSu, at OSU and Iowa. Wisconsin also beat the only ranked team they played in this 6-game sequence, MD, by 11. In game #7, that you omit, the Badgers looked darn impressive (back to themselves?) against a red hot Minne team.
Wisconsin got caught in a meat grinder of a road schedule against teams desperate for a win -- and they came closer to beating UM in AA than we did!
But if you want to make Wisconsin look bad -- which in turn makes Purdue look less impressive -- then spin it your way. There are plenty of ACC/Big East fans at places like Butler and Louisville willing to help your narrative prevail. And if it does, Purdue will end up in Milwaukee as a #4 or #5 and Bulter and Louisville will be in Indy, regardless of whether Purdue wins the B1G Tourney.
So, I asked you before, who is the "we" you mentioned? The answer is YOU and many other B1G fans. Note: I'm not being critical. You're being objective. But that doesn't help Purdue when the national media, and most fans of other conferences, are nothing but advocates for their conferences/teams.
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You're echoing what Tom Izzo was saying in his postgame on Saturday (question starts at the 5:45 mark of the video): http://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...o-blames-media-for-poor-promotion-of-big-ten/
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Let's just look at our own board....We even have a thread labled "Worst B1G Championship Team Ever". I will bet the farm that you would NEVER see something like that down here on an ACC Championship Team's fan forum.....How are we suppose to convince the National Media or those on a Selection Committee that the B1G still matters when we even have people posting that kind of sh*t on our Board ( and no- I'm not saying any of the fore mentioned read our Boards) I hate to say it but there is sometimes something to be said for just plain old unquestionable loyalty to the Team bringing you to the Dance-And sadly Purdue has some real idiots claiming to be fans that seem to only hope for the worst.
That leaves us only one choice as "Drew" would say....Shock the World, Boilermakers. We believe in you.
That leaves us only one choice as "Drew" would say....Shock the World, Boilermakers. We believe in you.
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I agree with izzo on this...gross. Many talkin heads in the media that are not from big ten schools love to put the big ten down. Not sure why, perhaps from big ten previous success? I live in the south and other than acc or sec attackingg each other, their second favorite is putting the big ten down.
The answer isn't just the fans. Fans collectively may be a small part of it but it is coach and media driven more than anything.
There is a line between loyalty and delusion though and I don't think it serves us well to cross it. Then we would be just like the IU fan base.
You are certainly right about that generally....but with the group of Boilermakers Purdue is putting on the floor this year I think we are far far away from having to worry about that....These guys are the best TEAM we have had in years IMHO. I am not suggesting they should be a #1 Seed....But I also think they deserve better than having everyone apologize for them whenever they are mentioned as B1G Champions like it's not a legitimately impressive accomplishment. ( Okay, the Mother Hen will back off now...lol!)
Just keep winning basketball games! The seed will take care of itself. At some point you are going to play a higher ranked team.
But rankings are just some folks opinions. The game is played on the court.
"My team is on the floor"
But rankings are just some folks opinions. The game is played on the court.
"My team is on the floor"
Just like last night on there late show, BTN was saying a Kansas player is the npoy, not even bringing up Biggie.
I like this very much. Teams don't stay the same all year, usually. Just here at home you can see that. Purdue is better than they were at the start. IU is worse. MSU is better. Wisky appears worse. Assigning value at the agreed rank at the time if the game would make a lot of sense.
Stating nonsense like this is the other way that "we let it happen."
The games are played on the court but the determination of seedings is high politics.
And as TC4Three said, "Consequently, they'll get seeded for success in the NCAAT and have a much easier path to get teams to the S16 and beyond."
This is exactly what's at stake. Can it be overcome? Sure, just win. But in a high variance game with loads of parity, that's a much harder path with much lower odds of success, even for the best of teams, when the seeding is stacked against you in the first place.
I agree, the BTN is just awful! Izzo's point was valid and his major beef should be with the BTN! As Izzo said, Walton advocates for the Pac 12. ESPN advocates for UK, Kansas and the whole ACC. Meanwhile, the BTN studio commentators poor-mouth the B1G, apparently as a way of bending over backwards to avoid even the pretense of being less than "objective." The lack of any attempt on BTN to defend Wisconsin or Purdue, when they were omitted from the Top 16, was an outrage. And the issue isn't whether Wisconsin or Purdue should have been included! The point is, if the BTN won't stand up and defend the B1G, no one else in the media is going to take the heat for doing it! And there would be heat. Anyone media type who publicly backs the B1G is going to take heat for it from the advocates of other conferences.
I think if Duke had the same season as IU had this year, they would still somehow end up a 3 seed.
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Yeah because you perceive the path to be harder.
I hVe no idea of Kansas would be tougher than Arkansas Little Rock. We could just as easily beat Kansas by 10.
Good grief people just like to complain. Me I just want to win some basketball games.
No, we all want Purdue to win basketball games. You help explain why Purdue and the B1G have a hard way to go. Because you yield every possible advantage to our opponents without even being smart to recognize you were in a fight before the game started.
Meh. The whole world is biased against the Big Ten, even the BTN. No one likes Purdue. Whatever.
To be fair, that was some 13 year-old dropout living in a Bloomington trailer park.
But your point is a good one. Many people on here think the B1G is down. I've said it before: I've watched many NCAA tournaments where the B1G was underrated and then embarrassed the conferences that were the media favorites.
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