Your tax dollars at work

[BoilerJS]

Um… well… in spite of Mike Pence’s opinion piece in the WSJ, David Patreaus rebutted saying that piece of negotiation - which was done without the government of the Afghan republic at the table - was the single dumbest foreign policy move made by Trump (which is saying something). It freed those Taliban fighters and gave the Taliban a timeline for our withdrawal.

No, I’m not blaming Trump. But to pretend like his negotiations and arrangement with the Taliban didn’t have anything to do with this is pure partisan crap. Trump may be the one President of the last four who is the least to blame for all of this (I’d rank it Bush, Obama, Biden, Trump) but even he had a hand in this National failure.

This is the only link I could find regarding the Trump/Taliban agreement.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/20/trump-peace-deal-taliban/

I also know there was speculation that if they killed any US soldiers or citizens Trump promised all hell would be unleashed upon them. None were killed in what 18 months.
And whatever you want to call the retreat from Afghanistan, an executed plan is not the word to use.

I am completely for the withdraw. I had a Niece, a Nephew, 2 good friends and a Son who spent time there.
They said the civilians didn't want us there, the rules of engagement were ridiculous and we should have gotten out years ago.
But this withdraw is a Cluster F.

Rumor has it than in order for the US to give up their air bases and leave without any air power to protect the withdraw, Haibatullah Akhundzada paid 1 million bucks for one of Hunters portraits.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

This is the source of your confusion (well, not the only source considering your vast ignorance).

The US wrote the Japanese constitution and banned the military from a country that the military had controlled. That in itself qualifies as nation building of the first order.

That’s patently ridiculous and also misinformed. The Japanese had a military. It was called a self-defense force and still goes by that title today.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

This is the only link I could find regarding the Trump/Taliban agreement.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/20/trump-peace-deal-taliban/

I also know there was speculation that if they killed any US soldiers or citizens Trump promised all hell would be unleashed upon them. None were killed in what 18 months.
And whatever you want to call the retreat from Afghanistan, an executed plan is not the word to use.

I am completely for the withdraw. I had a Niece, a Nephew, 2 good friends and a Son who spent time there.
They said the civilians didn't want us there, the rules of engagement were ridiculous and we should have gotten out years ago.
But this withdraw is a Cluster F.

Rumor has it than in order for the US to give up their air bases and leave without any air power to protect the withdraw, Haibatullah Akhundzada paid 1 million bucks for one of Hunters portraits.

I agree with everything (up till the last paragraph, I guess).

 

[Riveting]

That’s patently ridiculous and also misinformed. The Japanese had a military. It was called a self-defense force and still goes by that title today.

Read this from the Dept of State and then see if you still think the US failed in nation building in Japan (don't slink away and hide like Bob would):

In 1947, Allied advisors essentially dictated a new constitution to Japan’s leaders. Some of the most profound changes in the document included downgrading the emperor’s status to that of a figurehead without political control and placing more power in the parliamentary system, promoting greater rights and privileges for women, and renouncing the right to age war, which involved eliminating all non-defensive armed forces.

Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Read this from the Dept of State and then see if you still think the US failed in nation building in Japan (don't slink away and hide like Bob would):

In 1947, Allied advisors essentially dictated a new constitution to Japan’s leaders. Some of the most profound changes in the document included downgrading the emperor’s status to that of a figurehead without political control and placing more power in the parliamentary system, promoting greater rights and privileges for women, and renouncing the right to age war, which involved eliminating all non-defensive armed forces.

Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

We’ve been over this: they dictated a constitution. They did NOT create a new government nor change the structure other than limiting Imperial power. The Diet existed. The various ministries existed. Industry, schools, and infrastructure all existed throughout the country.

In Afghanistan, most of the population couldn’t even read numbers, let alone words. Government and infrastructure was extremely limited. There was no standing military. There were no ministries or departments.

It’s a bullshit comparison, and you are completely wrong here. No matter how many times you say “we wrote a constitution”, that does not, REPEAT, NOT constitute nation building akin to what we have attempted in Iraq and ESPECIALLY Afghanistan.

 

[Riveting]

We’ve been over this: they dictated a constitution. They did NOT create a new government nor change the structure other than limiting Imperial power. The Diet existed. The various ministries existed. Industry, schools, and infrastructure all existed throughout the country.

In Afghanistan, most of the population couldn’t even read numbers, let alone words. Government and infrastructure was extremely limited. There was no standing military. There were no ministries or departments.

It’s a bullshit comparison, and you are completely wrong here. No matter how many times you say “we wrote a constitution”, that does not, REPEAT, NOT constitute nation building akin to what we have attempted in Iraq and ESPECIALLY Afghanistan.

No need to shout. Your original point was that the US has always failed in nation building.

You don't think this qualified as nation building: downgrading the emperor’s status to that of a figurehead without political control and placing more power in the parliamentary system, promoting greater rights and privileges for women, and renouncing the right to age war, which involved eliminating all non-defensive armed forces.

If not, what was it?

 

[gr8indoorsman]

No need to shout. Your original point was that the US has always failed in nation building.

You don't think this qualified as nation building: downgrading the emperor’s status to that of a figurehead without political control and placing more power in the parliamentary system, promoting greater rights and privileges for women, and renouncing the right to age war, which involved eliminating all non-defensive armed forces.

If not, what was it?

We defeated them in war, and then dictated the terms of their REconstruction. Emphasis on the prefix. It was not even close to Afghanistan or even Iraq, where we dictated constitution but also had to entirely change the structure of government along with replace the entire regime and spent our own money on constructing their infrastructure (we did not replace individual members of the Diet nor ministers other than those we charged with crimes).

The scope of what we did in Japan doesn’t approach “nation building”.

 

[Riveting]

We defeated them in war, and then dictated the terms of their REconstruction. Emphasis on the prefix. It was not even close to Afghanistan or even Iraq, where we dictated constitution but also had to entirely change the structure of government along with replace the entire regime and spent our own money on constructing their infrastructure (we did not replace individual members of the Diet nor ministers other than those we charged with crimes).

The scope of what we did in Japan doesn’t approach “nation building”.

We 'reconstructed', ie rebuilt, Japan into a vastly different nation.

Do you also not consider W. Germany as nation building?

Those two nations are now among the strongest and most successful democracies on the planet.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

We 'reconstructed', ie rebuilt, Japan into a vastly different nation.

Do you also not consider W. Germany as nation building?

Those two nations are now among the strongest and most successful democracies on the planet.

Nah, I’m done here. What I am talking about just isn't even registering with you. I'll stop wasting my time with you (again) now.

 

[Riveting]

Nah, I’m done here. What I am talking about just isn't even registering with you. I'll stop wasting my time with you (again) now.

Come on, don't hide.

I still want to know how our nation building in Germany and S. Korea were both failures.

 

[Bruce1]

The Brits pulled out all military support except for embassy security in 2014. That’s the comedy of their right wing taking umbrage with the US leaving.

The Brits had 750 troops in Afghanistan in July of this year. Embassy support?

“At the peak of the war, there were 9,500 British troops in Helmand Province alone, and Camp Bastion grew to the size of Reading.

In 2011, when US Special Forces killed Bin Laden, then Prime Minister David Cameron announced the withdrawal of hundreds of British troops.

He also signalled his intention to end all British combat missions in Afghanistan by the end of 2014.

The vast majority of British combat troops left Afghanistan in October that year, with Camp Bastion handed over to Afghan forces.

However, around 750 people remained in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand.

In July 2021, Boris Johnson announced all remaining British troops would be brought home.”

the above is from this

When did British troops leave Afghanistan and will they be going back?

The devastating fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban has led to fresh questions over the role of international troops in the 20-year-long war.

metro.co.uk

 

[gr8indoorsman]

The Brits had 750 troops in Afghanistan in July of this year. Embassy support?

“At the peak of the war, there were 9,500 British troops in Helmand Province alone, and Camp Bastion grew to the size of Reading.

In 2011, when US Special Forces killed Bin Laden, then Prime Minister David Cameron announced the withdrawal of hundreds of British troops.

He also signalled his intention to end all British combat missions in Afghanistan by the end of 2014.

The vast majority of British combat troops left Afghanistan in October that year, with Camp Bastion handed over to Afghan forces.

However, around 750 people remained in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand.

In July 2021, Boris Johnson announced all remaining British troops would be brought home.”

the above is from this

When did British troops leave Afghanistan and will they be going back?

The devastating fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban has led to fresh questions over the role of international troops in the 20-year-long war.

metro.co.uk

Combat troops left in 2014. That's what I said. Yes, I got the nature of the remaining troops wrong, you're right about that. Doesn't change the point that the far right Brits are decrying this when they haven't lifted a substantive finger in Afghanistan in nearly a decade.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Come on, don't hide.

I still want to know how our nation building in Germany and S. Korea were both failures.

There's a marked difference between "hiding" and "choosing to no longer engage with someone who is incapable of processing what is being discussed."

 

[Crayfish57]

Too many to count, most accomplished by white males.

AGAIN, were any of those 5000 your family, friends, or yourself? No? Spoken like someone with no skin in the game. You and a few right wing British politicians believe we should’ve stayed there because it isn’t your family and it isn’t UK tax dollars being spent.

And we know Biden was just executing the deal Trump brokered to release 5000 Taliban detainees in exchange for safe US pull out. Funny how none of you ass clowns is talking about THAT.

Whats with all your skin in the game? Are any of the soldiers drafted that have been over there? For as big of an ''ass clown'' as you are it is funny you calling someone else that. What is your skin in the game?