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Trade War with China

Here’s the thing: winning a war that doesn’t need to be “fought” isn’t really winning at all. When you create conflict where none needs to exist, it’s foolish to run around worrying about winning and losing that conflict.

Really? China has been taking over world markets through unfair, government sponsored targeted strategies for a very long time. For example:
Aluminum: https://www.wsj.com/articles/aluminum-market-holding-china-to-account-1513108607

They have stolen trade secrets for years.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/23/chinese-theft-of-trade-secrets-is-on-the-rise-us-doj-warns.html

They have manipulated their currency to maintain a competitive advantage for their companies.
 
Really? China has been taking over world markets through unfair, government sponsored targeted strategies for a very long time. For example:
Aluminum: https://www.wsj.com/articles/aluminum-market-holding-china-to-account-1513108607

They have stolen trade secrets for years.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/23/chinese-theft-of-trade-secrets-is-on-the-rise-us-doj-warns.html

They have manipulated their currency to maintain a competitive advantage for their companies.

if supporters think some trade aspects are unfair,
consider other countries viewing 100-times the unfairness in the u.s. dollar being the primary reserve currency for years, the petrodollar, etc

this is a be careful what you wish for scenario
 
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Really? China has been taking over world markets through unfair, government sponsored targeted strategies for a very long time. For example:
Aluminum: https://www.wsj.com/articles/aluminum-market-holding-china-to-account-1513108607

They have stolen trade secrets for years.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/23/chinese-theft-of-trade-secrets-is-on-the-rise-us-doj-warns.html

They have manipulated their currency to maintain a competitive advantage for their companies.
Yeah, and their economy still isn’t great considering their resources and manpower. They have also artificially cooked their books for years to project and show better economic growth, yet Chinese continue to invest almost entirely overseas.

It is a “war” that didn’t need fighting, and is damaging our economy.
 
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Yeah, and their economy still isn’t great considering their resources and manpower. They have also artificially cooked their books for years to project and show better economic growth, yet Chinese continue to invest almost entirely overseas.

It is a “war” that didn’t need fighting, and is damaging our economy.

I guess it’s a matter of perspective. If you own or work for a company that had your proprietary information stolen by the Chinese, you would feel differently.
They can make products cheaper for three major reasons, one being they have little to no R n D costs.
 
I guess it’s a matter of perspective. If you own or work for a company that had your proprietary information stolen by the Chinese, you would feel differently.
They can make products cheaper for three major reasons, one being they have little to no R n D costs.
And as long as they're stealing ideas, they'll always be a step behind. So BFD. I think you two are seriously overestimating how much they steal, first of all, and how much they're able to do with that which they do steal, secondly. I mean, FFS we've had aircraft carriers for damn near a century, and they still haven't figured out how to do that right, even with our help.

But again, let's keep harming our own economy to have a war with an inferior opponent with natural economic disadvantages (Communism). Makes total sense.
 
I guess it’s a matter of perspective. If you own or work for a company that had your proprietary information stolen by the Chinese, you would feel differently.
They can make products cheaper for three major reasons, one being they have little to no R n D costs.
So their intellectual property theft accounts for 90+ % of their R & D costs ?
Just silly.
 
The Senate is Republican controlled. You believe Fox News as near as I can tell.
Concerning the Senate Intelligence Committee 85 page report on election interference, Fox News reports
"The senators noted the Russians' social media effort was a 'vastly more complex and strategic assault on the United States than was initially understood,' with planning well underway in 2014.
The report said the Russians' social media campaign was 'overtly and almost invariably supportive' of Trump and designed to harm Democrat Hillary Clinton."

So, as they say, GTFO with that weak sh*t...

As I said before, you really believe that Russia spending $100,000 on Facebook swung the election for Trump?
I'd love to see what % of the voting public even has FB accounts and even if they do, what % actually looks at the political ads.
Again, the Russians didn't uncover any secret dirt on Hilary that wasn't already well known by Republican operatives.
Hilary's problem was there was too much dirt there to begin with.
 
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I agree totally that the overall Russian impact is impossible to gauge because there were so many activities. I felt that a huge impact in the rust belt was that HRC assumed she would easily carry those states. That was well documented.

there is also no doubt the Russian wave of FB ads touched a lot of people. One datapoint I would like to know is thru social media how many total ads, emails, tweets, etc were sent in total and how many did the Russians send. I would guess that as a % the Russians were small. Does anyone have any data like this?

If the lefties main complaint on Russian interference in our election is that they utilized Facebook too much, then they're reaching even more than they did with Stormy.
 
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As I said before, you really believe that Russia spending $100,000 on Facebook swung the election for Trump?
I'd love to see what % of the voting public even has FB accounts and even if they do, what % actually looks at the political ads.
Again, the Russians didn't uncover any secret dirt on Hilary that wasn't already well known by Republican operatives.
Hilary's problem was there was too much dirt there to begin with.
That was not the extent of what Russia did. I'd say you can't be that stupid, but based on your posting history...
 
1) There were NO polls showing Clinton winning by anywhere NEAR a landslide. Final CONSENSUS was 4-5 %.
2) There were about 2,900,000 more Americans " fed up " with Trump compared to Hillary, that showed up to vote in Nov., 2016
3) Too bad the Trump media didn't take any " shots" at Hillary " at every opportunity " Oh, wait......
4) your recognition that Trump ( said and did stupid things) might rank right up there with the Sun's out in the day and the moon's out at night.....
But, to your credit, there's acknowledgement given.

2) And 90% of those 2,900,000 are lefty libs living in la la land California.
3) The "Trump Media".. You mean the 1 station (Fox) that is pro-Trump, pro-conservative, compared to ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, etc that are all pro-Lib and pro-Democrat? And in an election fight, aren't you supposed to take shots at your opponent? That's how this works.
 
Oh, and the Dow LOST 255+ today (10/18)
" Thank you Mr. President " ?????????

Are you one of those morons like Bill Maher who is hoping for a recession just so Trump doesn't get credit for a strong economy? Way to cut off your nose...oh, never mind. You wouldn't understand.
 
That was not the extent of what Russia did. I'd say you can't be that stupid, but based on your posting history...

But you're claiming Russia made up lies about Hilary that hurt her? What lies did they make up and spread? What news did they report that didn't already exist.
The whole.. "But Russia" claim from the libs is comical.
 
Yeah, and their economy still isn’t great considering their resources and manpower. They have also artificially cooked their books for years to project and show better economic growth, yet Chinese continue to invest almost entirely overseas.

It is a “war” that didn’t need fighting, and is damaging our economy.

China is an oppressive, dictatorial communist country with a government run economy geared towards dominating first Southeast Asia and ultimately the world. We better wake up!

https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinese-military-official-takes-swipes-at-america
 
But you're claiming Russia made up lies about Hilary that hurt her? What lies did they make up and spread? What news did they report that didn't already exist.
The whole.. "But Russia" claim from the libs is comical.
The only comical thing, here, is your proposition that Russian Intel had to include NEW disparaging content in its millions of internet transmissions, to have had an effect in its mission.
Seventeen U.S. Intelligence Agencies signed off on the reports of the Russians' massive effort.
Whatever you do, don't read anything about it.
Then we'd all miss your next "review " about it.
 
Are you one of those morons like Bill Maher who is hoping for a recession just so Trump doesn't get credit for a strong economy? Way to cut off your nose...oh, never mind. You wouldn't understand.
Are you one of those morons like Bill Maher who is hoping for a recession just so Trump doesn't get credit for a strong economy? Way to cut off your nose...oh, never mind. You wouldn't understand.
The answer to your question is NO - I'm not Bill Maher. And NO I,m not hoping for a recession. Call my investment bankers for confirmation.
So, since my answer is NO......
I guess that I'M NOT CUTTING OFF (MY) NOSE, NOW AM I ??? HUH ???? AM I ???
" (I) wouldn't understand " , you ask ??
It's not always easy understanding juvenile trash-talking.
Been a long time since any of us, here, were in the 6th grade.
 
The answer to your question is NO - I'm not Bill Maher. And NO I,m not hoping for a recession. Call my investment bankers for confirmation.
So, since my answer is NO......
I guess that I'M NOT CUTTING OFF (MY) NOSE, NOW AM I ??? HUH ???? AM I ???
" (I) wouldn't understand " , you ask ??
It's not always easy understanding juvenile trash-talking.
Been a long time since any of us, here, were in the 6th grade.

So, as a prudent and astute investor, you should be cheering for Trump and what's he's doing for the US economy. Since he's been in office, your investments have done really well (at least, they should be) because his administration has created a much friendlier business, investment, regulatory and tax environment domestically while renegotiating or getting us out of bad international agreements.
Again, as an investor, how can you not applaud Trump?
 
Bonefish1: This is a start to understanding how rumors, false news, and fake information spreads and the results. People actually believed that Hillary Clinton and other prominent people were aiding in the running of a pedophile ring from the basement of a D.C. restaurant which did not even have a basement.

Here is an article on how false information spreads on the internet. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-38156985

This article is about the man who actually got a gun and went to D.C. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38205885
 
So, as a prudent and astute investor, you should be cheering for Trump and what's he's doing for the US economy. Since he's been in office, your investments have done really well (at least, they should be) because his administration has created a much friendlier business, investment, regulatory and tax environment domestically while renegotiating or getting us out of bad international agreements.
Again, as an investor, how can you not applaud Trump?
I don't recall reading posts on here complaining that the economy was in dire straits. Rather, the generally worst thing said about it is that the status of the economy was an ongoing positive since Obama began the turnaround during his first term.
Last month BBC did a pretty good brief assessment of the American economy which seems pretty consistent with that view.
 
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They are so far from dominating the world in any way, it’s not even funny. This isn’t the USSR FFS. You guys are stuck in the 50s... politically, ideologically, etc.

I suggest you get out of your bubble and do some real research about China. They are a much bigger threat than Russia.
 
I suggest you get out of your bubble and do some real research about China. They are a much bigger threat than Russia.
"Get out of my bubble." That's rich. Ever been to China? I've been there four times, myself. Among the two dozen or so other Asian countries I've been to and the other two that I've lived in for at least six months of my life. Have you ever left Attica, Bruce?

I said nothing of Russia. But I would expect you to wave the Red herring of China around... as long as we're worried about someone else with a different skin color and eyes, we can just ignore all the things that are wrong right here. Classic fomentation of xenophobia that's been played out dozens of times by leaders around the world who mean to rule just like Dear Leader Trump. Nothing's wrong with America - we're making it great again! If only those damn Mexicans and Chinese would get out of our way!!
 
Maybe liberals, although I don't really fear them, more like, just find them annoying.
Remember high school math ?
If we define Set1 as all American citizens who don't approve of Trump, there are numerous subsets, one of which can be defined as CONSERVATIVES who don't approve of Trump.
Are those that find themselves in that particular subset additionally annoying to you ??
 
"Get out of my bubble." That's rich. Ever been to China? I've been there four times, myself. Among the two dozen or so other Asian countries I've been to and the other two that I've lived in for at least six months of my life. Have you ever left Attica, Bruce?

I said nothing of Russia. But I would expect you to wave the Red herring of China around... as long as we're worried about someone else with a different skin color and eyes, we can just ignore all the things that are wrong right here. Classic fomentation of xenophobia that's been played out dozens of times by leaders around the world who mean to rule just like Dear Leader Trump. Nothing's wrong with America - we're making it great again! If only those damn Mexicans and Chinese would get out of our way!!

Lived in China for 4 and Mexico for 7. Lighten up will ya
 
So their intellectual property theft accounts for 90+ % of their R & D costs ?
Just silly.
I'd say 90% is about right.
It's pretty easy to get a first year engineer to copy parts, programs and systems from an existing machine.
A machine you already know does the job.
 
Hard to be "light" in the face of ignorance, Bruce.

This is what happens too much of the time on these boards when there are differences of opinions. Rather than having an objective conversation about the disagreement, liberals resort to race baiting and name calling. Have a nice day.
 
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And as long as they're stealing ideas, they'll always be a step behind. So BFD. I think you two are seriously overestimating how much they steal, first of all, and how much they're able to do with that which they do steal, secondly. I mean, FFS we've had aircraft carriers for damn near a century, and they still haven't figured out how to do that right, even with our help.

But again, let's keep harming our own economy to have a war with an inferior opponent with natural economic disadvantages (Communism). Makes total sense.

I have no clue how far along China is with building and designing an aircraft carrier but I know they have stolen patented ideas from a number of American manufacturers, copied the design, manufactured and sold the equipment, and profited in doing so. There is a World Intellectual Property Organization for a reason.
I would imagine an aircraft carrier would take a long time to copy piece by piece. And you have to have one in your possession to do so.
 
This is what happens too much of the time on these boards when there are differences of opinions. Rather than having an objective conversation about the disagreement, liberals resort to race baiting and name calling. Have a nice day.
gr8indoorsman isn't a liberal. He's a conservative that didn't' give up everything decent about himself to become a Trump boot-licker. Right wing media has convinced most of you guys that anyone willing to act decently in standing up to the most corrupt and destructive President this country has ever seen is an enemy.
 
I'd say 90% is about right.
It's pretty easy to get a first year engineer to copy parts, programs and systems from an existing machine.
A machine you already know does the job.
The percentage of China's total R & D outlay that would involve theft of design info that a first yr. engineer could acquire....

WOULD BE LESS THAN 1%

C,mon...
High-tech products needing high-tech R & D don't depend on almost a TOTAL need for industrial espionage.
90% is silly. Whatever it is is too much, but it ain't 90%.
 
gr8indoorsman isn't a liberal. He's a conservative that didn't' give up everything decent about himself to become a Trump boot-licker. Right wing media has convinced most of you guys that anyone willing to act decently in standing up to the most corrupt and destructive President this country has ever seen is an enemy.

I'm pretty sure there's only 1 right wing media outlet (Fox News) compared to all the rest that lean decidedly left and liberal. The ratio is at least 5:1.
 
This is what happens too much of the time on these boards when there are differences of opinions. Rather than having an objective conversation about the disagreement, liberals resort to race baiting and name calling. Have a nice day.
I'm not a liberal, Bruce. Just calling it like I see it. You've repeatedly demonstrated ignorance on a number of subjects around here. Don't like it? It's pretty simple: ignorance is your choice, and it's easy to fix. It's not an insult to be "ignorant" of things, Bruce.
 
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I have no clue how far along China is with building and designing an aircraft carrier but I know they have stolen patented ideas from a number of American manufacturers, copied the design, manufactured and sold the equipment, and profited in doing so. There is a World Intellectual Property Organization for a reason.
I would imagine an aircraft carrier would take a long time to copy piece by piece. And you have to have one in your possession to do so.
They've built one. Took them basically 50 years to do it, and they still don't know how to work it very well. Chinese weapon designs are notoriously second-rate, even when they're based on Russian or European tech that they either stole or purchased. And that's my point. They can steal designs, but they don't have the thinkers who came up with them, partly because their system does not reward creativity. It rewards conformity. Creative thinkers flee for places where they can create. It is a doomed system, as the Soviet Union was before them. They can never get ahead... all they can do is catch up or stay even. If America is to be "great" again, it need not concern itself with economic boot-lickers, but instead recognize them for what they are, take advantage of what they can (with cheap parts for our tech, for example) and let them wallow about as they will.

Trump declared this trade war to provide another outlet for your xenophobia, and you guys are just lapping it up.
 
They've built one. Took them basically 50 years to do it, and they still don't know how to work it very well. Chinese weapon designs are notoriously second-rate, even when they're based on Russian or European tech that they either stole or purchased. And that's my point. They can steal designs, but they don't have the thinkers who came up with them, partly because their system does not reward creativity. It rewards conformity. Creative thinkers flee for places where they can create. It is a doomed system, as the Soviet Union was before them. They can never get ahead... all they can do is catch up or stay even. If America is to be "great" again, it need not concern itself with economic boot-lickers, but instead recognize them for what they are, take advantage of what they can (with cheap parts for our tech, for example) and let them wallow about as they will.

Trump declared this trade war to provide another outlet for your xenophobia, and you guys are just lapping it up.

China has tripled its GDP in the last 10 years. They made a lunar landing this year. They continue to educate their young people here with more and more of them returning to China than ever before. They don't have to catch us to become a significant problem for us and the world. In that regard It is foolish to say that they will never be able progress enough to become the major influence in the world. By stealing our IP they are closing the gap in technology. You are viewing China from 30 years ago. Arrogant Liberals like you can only play the race card, TDS card, etc. Sick
 
China has tripled its GDP in the last 10 years. They made a lunar landing this year. They continue to educate their young people here with more and more of them returning to China than ever before. They don't have to catch us to become a significant problem for us and the world. In that regard It is foolish to say that they will never be able progress enough to become the major influence in the world. By stealing our IP they are closing the gap in technology. You are viewing China from 30 years ago. Arrogant Liberals like you can only play the race card, TDS card, etc. Sick
China today is similar to what the USA was in 1913, just as we did with Europe a little over 100 years ago, all they need to do is sit back an let us implode.
 
China has tripled its GDP in the last 10 years. They made a lunar landing this year. They continue to educate their young people here with more and more of them returning to China than ever before. They don't have to catch us to become a significant problem for us and the world. In that regard It is foolish to say that they will never be able progress enough to become the major influence in the world. By stealing our IP they are closing the gap in technology. You are viewing China from 30 years ago. Arrogant Liberals like you can only play the race card, TDS card, etc. Sick

if fairness is the goal

China will stop:
- stealing IP
(keeping in mind its also u.s. companies providing them the spec/prints seeking a low $ quote).

China will in return have:
- their turn having the yuan replace the u.s. dollar as major reserve currency
- global military presence/bases equal to the u.s.
 
if fairness is the goal

China will stop:
- stealing IP
(keeping in mind its also u.s. companies providing them the spec/prints seeking a low $ quote).

China will in return have:
- their turn having the yuan replace the u.s. dollar as major reserve currency
- global military presence/bases equal to the u.s.
The reserve currency thing is the most staggering aspect of American politics today. How is it’s importamnce so misunderstood? I hear constantly low taxes is Econ 101, the benifits of borrowing money in your own currency is basic math. You can’t have low taxes and still have everything we have today without it, the problem for the Zimbabwe’s of the world is at the end of the day the borrow in US$ not Z$
 
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