When first is last, expect a tumble

[Born Boiler]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

Yikes

 

[BoilerDeac]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

Furst may transfer after this season. If not, hopefully he starts next year and gets big, big minutes.

 

[Boiler Buck]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

Call the CMP show. Good luck.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Much like Ethan, teams are sagging off Caleb and using that defender on Zach. So far he hasn't made them pay much.
Transfer or play big, big minutes.
Sure.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

Whenever Furst gets his ability back from the Mon Stars, then I’ll be on board. But dude has not looked the same since FDU. Very timid, not as aggressive. He’s lost whatever it was that made him Mr Indiana Bball.

TKR and Gillis are playing way better, and I’d rather them play right now. Hell, maybe even try Berg at the 5 to spell Big Z over Furst. I hope he can get it back cuz he’d be a great weapon, but something’s off with him and he’s not produced at all this whole year.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

Furst is an amazing kid. Better than most on this board know. Unfortunately he’s sort of a tweener and is stuck behind the NPOY.

 

[Chi-Boiler]

When do we get the 5-page thread debating how many minutes Chase Martin is getting?

 

[Do Dah Day]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

DAmn, we must be last in the B1G!~!!!

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Furst is an amazing kid. Better than most on this board know. Unfortunately he’s sort of a tweener and is stuck behind the NPOY.

I don’t think anyone has thought Furst is not a good kid on here. He is not currently playing good basketball, I have no clue why. I hope he can figure it out before years end

 

[qazplm]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

Gillis is far and away playing better than Furst or TKR so not sure the wisdom of invoking him. He doesn't just shoot threes very well but he's very aggressive on the boards and can switch screens on defense more than the other two can.

If you are comparing TKR and Furst, I suppose you can make the argument for more time for Furst sure, but so far it's not like Furst has done much this season to suggest he should start and if I was going to sit TKR from the starting lineup, I'm much more likely to replace him with Gillis for bigger teams or Heide for smaller ones than Furst.

 

[rjmpu82]

Most of us have thoughts on who should be playing more. Last year it was Newman, this year Colvin. I am not disagreeing with either of those positions. Two facts need to be considered. No one here is privy to what happens during practice or in the locker room. No one here has coached a college team to the level Painter has the past two years. We may not always agree with his rotations and methods, but he has put Purdue in position to win a national championship the past two seasons. I am hoping this is the year we break thru.

 

[BoilerDeac]

I don’t think anyone has thought Furst is not a good kid on here. He is not currently playing good basketball, I have no clue why. I hope he can figure it out before years end

Hard to play well in very limited and inconsistent minutes. Just a logjam at his position, unfortunately.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Hard to play well in very limited and inconsistent minutes. Just a logjam at his position, unfortunately.

Yup. That’s what practice is for though, try to prove it there if mins are limited

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Hard to play well in very limited and inconsistent minutes. Just a logjam at his position, unfortunately.

I’d call it a good problem to have. Edey, Gillis, and TKR give Purdue possibly the best front court rotation in the country with Furst providing nice depth.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Hard to play well in very limited and inconsistent minutes. Just a logjam at his position, unfortunately.

He has been in the program long enough to separate himself from his competition. Are others working harder? I really like Furst's talent and want him to shine. But the logjam will not necessarilly be alleviated next year if Edey and Gillis move on. If Berg continues to improve and the feshmen are as good as advertised, you have a new logjam.

In the end, it's a "problem" that the so-called blue bloods typically have.

 

[jdbrees922]

This is the time of year for shorter practices, they don’t go real hard and mostly walk through type of practices. You don’t need someone getting banged up or have a twisted ankle happen.

 

[Born Boiler]

DAmn, we must be last in the B1G!~!!!

Last place? Not quite. Next-to-last place beat us in rebounds and in turnovers and almost in points, getting within two and finishing eight back where Illinois won by 18. Damn.

Rutgers outrebounded Purdue 36-32 and turned over Purdue 15-10, yet no adjustments were made for the two players most responsible. They still played their full 39 minutes, while another forward who actually rebounds better and takes better care of the ball got just two minutes.

Kaufman-Renn and Gillis had more turnovers at Rutgers (6) than Furst has had in all 10 Big Ten games (4). Kaufman-Renn and Gillis combined for three rebounds (3) at Rutgers, needing 39 minutes just to match Furst’s average in Big Ten play despite getting only 9 minutes per game.

And so just who is “not currently playing good basketball?” Who is “far and away better?” Numbers, please.

Furst is shooting better and rebounding more per minute than Kaufman-Renn in Big Ten play, as detailed above, and though Gillis has played 211 minutes to Furst’s 91 against the conference, “aggressive on the boards” Gillis has totaled only 34 rebounds to Furst’s 30.

So, who needs to play more against the bigger teams? It’s as simple as 6-foot-5 vs. 6-foot-10.

 

[Born Boiler]

When do we get the 5-page thread debating how many minutes Chase Martin is getting?

Soon as he wins Mr. Basketball, starts 33 games here on two top-ranked teams, then gets cut to two damned minutes.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Soon as he wins Mr. Basketball, starts 33 games here on two top-ranked teams, then gets cut to two damned minutes.

I'm curious, because Furst has been one of my favorite players since I watched him play multiple games in high school. Why do you think he isn't playing more?

 

[spoilerdave]

Most of us have thoughts on who should be playing more. Last year it was Newman, this year Colvin. I am not disagreeing with either of those positions. Two facts need to be considered. No one here is privy to what happens during practice or in the locker room. No one here has coached a college team to the level Painter has the past two years. We may not always agree with his rotations and methods, but he has put Purdue in position to win a national championship the past two seasons. I am hoping this is the year we break thru.

I second this with a stat I saw on a Purdue Meme today...

700 games at Mackey with an 82.6% winning percentage

Under Painter it's an 85.6% winning percentage with 67 straight sellouts.

I think Coach is doing just fine making decisions and doesn't need our help.

 

[Born Boiler]

I'm curious, because Furst has been one of my favorite players since I watched him play multiple games in high school. Why do you think he isn't playing more?

Good question for the powers that be.

The switch with Kaufman-Renn as Edey’s backup seemed fine, if Berg makes folks too nervous, but Furst inexplicably got dropped from his time at forward, where he’d started but the rotation has been limited to Kaufman-Renn and Gillis with cameos by Heide. Since Gillis is most effective from the perimeter, playing some at the three would fit, but that’s an even bigger jam with Loyer, Heide, Morton and … dare I say it … Colvin. So, small we go, wasting Furst and leaving Edey virtually alone for interior rebounds. Smith and Jones beat people to bricks.

We at least enjoy enough talent to adjust when a couple guys are off, and we should have at Rutgers, if not a few other games where Furst could’ve lifted us inside, given more time.

Tighter rotations tend to make for tighter legs come March, which we know well, so I’d like seeing all 10 get minutes … enough to go hard and actually need showers later. After games.

 

[qazplm]

Last place? Not quite. Next-to-last place beat us in rebounds and in turnovers and almost in points, getting within two and finishing eight back where Illinois won by 18. Damn.

Rutgers outrebounded Purdue 36-32 and turned over Purdue 15-10, yet no adjustments were made for the two players most responsible. They still played their full 39 minutes, while another forward who actually rebounds better and takes better care of the ball got just two minutes.

Kaufman-Renn and Gillis had more turnovers at Rutgers (6) than Furst has had in all 10 Big Ten games (4). Kaufman-Renn and Gillis combined for three rebounds (3) at Rutgers, needing 39 minutes just to match Furst’s average in Big Ten play despite getting only 9 minutes per game.

And so just who is “not currently playing good basketball?” Who is “far and away better?” Numbers, please.

Furst is shooting better and rebounding more per minute than Kaufman-Renn in Big Ten play, as detailed above, and though Gillis has played 211 minutes to Furst’s 91 against the conference, “aggressive on the boards” Gillis has totaled only 34 rebounds to Furst’s 30.

So, who needs to play more against the bigger teams? It’s as simple as 6-foot-5 vs. 6-foot-10.

1. You play a lot more minutes, you get a lot more turnovers. So not sure why you are looking just at one game. So let's look at conference only stats since you seem to want to limit it there.

2. PPG Gillis triples up Furst despite not playing triple as many minutes. Same with assists. 3p shooting percentage 52 percent to 0. FT percentage 85 to 71. The only thing they are about even on is rebounds. Gillis is also a better defender for smaller wings than Furst is by a large margin (or TKR for that matter).

3. TKR plays fewer minutes but exactly double Furst. The two are rather similar, Furst better a little bit at shooting the ball, TKR better at rebounding.

There is no metric by which Furst exceeds the other two by such a degree as to warrant the idea that somehow Painter is being stupid in giving the other two more time. Certainly not Gillis. Given the rough equity you could make an argument to give Furst some of TKRs minutes I suppose but nothing to suggest to this point a significant change would occur if you did so to the overall result.

I might sit TKR as a starter but it would be against smaller teams and then I'd go Gillis.
Furst certainly has value and is needed. We only have four players who can guard on the interior so he's going to be important. But his output so far is not so above the other two to support the argument you are making.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Last place? Not quite. Next-to-last place beat us in rebounds and in turnovers and almost in points, getting within two and finishing eight back where Illinois won by 18. Damn.

Rutgers outrebounded Purdue 36-32 and turned over Purdue 15-10, yet no adjustments were made for the two players most responsible. They still played their full 39 minutes, while another forward who actually rebounds better and takes better care of the ball got just two minutes.

Kaufman-Renn and Gillis had more turnovers at Rutgers (6) than Furst has had in all 10 Big Ten games (4). Kaufman-Renn and Gillis combined for three rebounds (3) at Rutgers, needing 39 minutes just to match Furst’s average in Big Ten play despite getting only 9 minutes per game.

And so just who is “not currently playing good basketball?” Who is “far and away better?” Numbers, please.

Furst is shooting better and rebounding more per minute than Kaufman-Renn in Big Ten play, as detailed above, and though Gillis has played 211 minutes to Furst’s 91 against the conference, “aggressive on the boards” Gillis has totaled only 34 rebounds to Furst’s 30.

So, who needs to play more against the bigger teams? It’s as simple as 6-foot-5 vs. 6-foot-10.

Evan Miya tracks a stat called Adjusted Team Efficiency Margin which basically tracks team +- per possession adjusted for all other players on the court at any given time. Edey is at 45.3. Gillis is at 40.6. TKR is at 31.9. Furst is at 12.0. (Unadjusted +- looks worse for Furst with the only negative value of any player in the rotation). I agree with Painter on this one.

From what I can see, Furst is a great teammate and a quality young man, but you have to play the players who give you the best chance to win and from what I have seen this season, Furst is fourth best at the 4/5 positions.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

A 6-foot-10 Indiana Mr. Basketball warrants more than 2 minutes in a game … especially when the other two forwards are combining for 6 turnovers and only 3 rebounds in their 39 minutes.

The starter doesn't show up half the time. The backup tends to disappear after making a three or two because he’s too short to rebound or defend against most Big Ten frontcourts.

Halfway through the Big Ten schedule, playing peers, as opposed to Eastern Kentucky or Jacksonville, the starter has gone scoreless twice in the 10 league games and scored just three points three times. Aside from one shining moment, 23 at home against the Illini, he has a grand total of 35 points in the other nine conference games.

Against the Big Ten, the 6-9 sophomore is averaging 5.8 points and 4.4 rebounds in 18.0 minutes, shooting .467 from the field and .609 on free throws. The 6-5 senior backup averages 7.9 points and 3.4 rebounds in 21.1 minutes, shooting .576 from the floor and .846 at the line in only 13 attempts. Combined, the two have 21 turnovers, 19 assists, three steals and six blocks in 10 league games.

Meanwhile, riding the pines for all but 9.1 minutes per Big Ten game is the program’s 6-10 junior Indiana Mr. Basketball, averaging 2.5 points and 3.0 rebounds while shooting .556 and .714 with four turnovers, five assists, one steal and two blocks.

With four double-digit scorers elsewhere in the lineup, the focus for the forward spot is rebounding and defense. One rebounds at a higher rate, takes better care of the ball and is a greater presence than the other two … when allowed to play.

TKR and Gillis are at the 4 because they shoot the 3 better. A lot better. 44 and 51 percent to 22 percent. My guess is CMP also thinks that they are better at feeding Zach.

So, Caleb is at the 5. Behind the NPOY, who sometimes plays lots of minutes (too many in my opinion if we’re trying to keep him fresh for March, but that’s another thread) in tight games.

I am as big a fan of Furst as there is on this board. I want him to get more minutes, just like you. But he’s GOT to improve that 3 ball % if he wants to be a 4. Or if he wants a shot at the NBA someday.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

1. You play a lot more minutes, you get a lot more turnovers. So not sure why you are looking just at one game. So let's look at conference only stats since you seem to want to limit it there.

2. PPG Gillis triples up Furst despite not playing triple as many minutes. Same with assists. 3p shooting percentage 52 percent to 0. FT percentage 85 to 71. The only thing they are about even on is rebounds. Gillis is also a better defender for smaller wings than Furst is by a large margin (or TKR for that matter).

3. TKR plays fewer minutes but exactly double Furst. The two are rather similar, Furst better a little bit at shooting the ball, TKR better at rebounding.

There is no metric by which Furst exceeds the other two by such a degree as to warrant the idea that somehow Painter is being stupid in giving the other two more time. Certainly not Gillis. Given the rough equity you could make an argument to give Furst some of TKRs minutes I suppose but nothing to suggest to this point a significant change would occur if you did so to the overall result.

I might sit TKR as a starter but it would be against smaller teams and then I'd go Gillis.
Furst certainly has value and is needed. We only have four players who can guard on the interior so he's going to be important. But his output so far is not so above the other two to support the argument you are making.

Yep.

Boiling it down, TKR and Gillis are better at playing with Zach. So Caleb plays mostly when Zach is on the bench. Which isn’t a lot.

 

[Dryfly88]

He has been in the program long enough to separate himself from his competition. Are others working harder? I really like Furst's talent and want him to shine. But the logjam will not necessarilly be alleviated next year if Edey and Gillis move on. If Berg continues to improve and the feshmen are as good as advertised, you have a new logjam.

In the end, it's a "problem" that the so-called blue bloods typically have.

Yep, this is exactly what happens at the big boy programs. We are getting ourselves closer to that kind of program. Not there yet, but making good progress. With that comes the Colvin/Furst discussions. If CMP continues to recruit at a high level we will see more of these discussions in the future and I'm perfectly fine with that!!

 

[BoilerAndy]

Good question for the powers that be.

The switch with Kaufman-Renn as Edey’s backup seemed fine, if Berg makes folks too nervous, but Furst inexplicably got dropped from his time at forward, where he’d started but the rotation has been limited to Kaufman-Renn and Gillis with cameos by Heide. Since Gillis is most effective from the perimeter, playing some at the three would fit, but that’s an even bigger jam with Loyer, Heide, Morton and … dare I say it … Colvin. So, small we go, wasting Furst and leaving Edey virtually alone for interior rebounds. Smith and Jones beat people to bricks.

We at least enjoy enough talent to adjust when a couple guys are off, and we should have at Rutgers, if not a few other games where Furst could’ve lifted us inside, given more time.

Tighter rotations tend to make for tighter legs come March, which we know well, so I’d like seeing all 10 get minutes … enough to go hard and actually need showers later. After games.

I wish we all knew what is going on in practice. Furst has played very well at times since his freshman year, and I expected he would be All-B1G before he finished his career at Purdue. Above, New Pal expressed the image of Furst that I have always had. So I can't believe he is any kind of disruption to the team. There have been times when Painter admits that he should have played someone more, but got caught up in the moment and missed the opportunity. Hopefully that's what happened here.

 

[boilerzz]

Am I the only one who read the first couple of sentences and thought the OP was talking about Xavier Booker?

 

[ImRonBurgandy?]

Imo Furst has the most athletic talent of any 4 we have. Not sure its really close. That being said he lacks the aggressiveness of TKR and Gillis. Along with that, he doesn't finish all that well nor does he shoot well from deep.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Imo Furst has the most athletic talent of any 4 we have. Not sure its really close. That being said he lacks the aggressiveness of TKR and Gillis. Along with that, he doesn't finish all that well nor does he shoot well from deep.

Add to that poor hands where he can't hold the ball through contact, susceptible to turnovers when double teams come, and little to no vertical lift in his jump off standing 2 feet. With the recruits coming in he has a real challenge here for floor time next year. Best of luck to him..

 

[Born Boiler]

1. You play a lot more minutes, you get a lot more turnovers. So not sure why you are looking just at one game. So let's look at conference only stats since you seem to want to limit it there.

2. PPG Gillis triples up Furst despite not playing triple as many minutes. Same with assists. 3p shooting percentage 52 percent to 0. FT percentage 85 to 71. The only thing they are about even on is rebounds. Gillis is also a better defender for smaller wings than Furst is by a large margin (or TKR for that matter).

3. TKR plays fewer minutes but exactly double Furst. The two are rather similar, Furst better a little bit at shooting the ball, TKR better at rebounding.

There is no metric by which Furst exceeds the other two by such a degree as to warrant the idea that somehow Painter is being stupid in giving the other two more time. Certainly not Gillis. Given the rough equity you could make an argument to give Furst some of TKRs minutes I suppose but nothing to suggest to this point a significant change would occur if you did so to the overall result.

I might sit TKR as a starter but it would be against smaller teams and then I'd go Gillis.
Furst certainly has value and is needed. We only have four players who can guard on the interior so he's going to be important. But his output so far is not so above the other two to support the argument you are making.

1. Your evaluation of their numbers is lacking in numbers and accuracy.

2. Here’s their actual averages per minute in this season’s Big Ten play, since that’s against perennial peers, represents two-thirds of each season’s schedule and leads to hanging banners …

Points -- Gillis .374; Kaufman-Renn .322; Furst .275.

Rebounds -- Furst .330; Kaufman-Renn .244; Gillis .161.

Assists -- Gillis .057; Furst .055; Kaufman-Renn .039.

Steals -- Furst .011; Gillis .009; Kaufman-Renn .006.

Blocks -- Kaufman-Renn .033; Furst .022; Gillis .000.

Turnovers -- Gillis .043; Furst .044; Kaufman-Renn .067.

Total Minutes (10 Games) -- Gillis 211; Kaufman-Renn 180; Furst 91.

 

[Tommaker]

how many minutes Chase Martin is getting?

NOT ENOUGH.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

When do we get the 5-page thread debating how many minutes Chase Martin is getting?

Should be playing 50+

 

[qazplm]

1. Your evaluation of their numbers is lacking in numbers and accuracy.

2. Here’s their actual averages per minute in this season’s Big Ten play, since that’s against perennial peers, represents two-thirds of each season’s schedule and leads to hanging banners …

Points -- Gillis .374; Kaufman-Renn .322; Furst .275.

Rebounds -- Furst .330; Kaufman-Renn .244; Gillis .161.

Assists -- Gillis .057; Furst .055; Kaufman-Renn .039.

Steals -- Furst .011; Gillis .009; Kaufman-Renn .006.

Blocks -- Kaufman-Renn .033; Furst .022; Gillis .000.

Turnovers -- Gillis .043; Furst .044; Kaufman-Renn .067.

Total Minutes (10 Games) -- Gillis 211; Kaufman-Renn 180; Furst 91.

Using the points per minute stat isn't particularly persuasive because it assumes all minutes are equal and it presumes that if you simply double minutes played you will double stats. Neither are true. Coming in and playing against backups or at the end of the game is not the same as playing against starters or at the beginning of the game.

Colvin shot three threes in a few minutes at the end of a game against the bench. Does that mean he'd have done the same if he played those same minutes starting the game? Of course not.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Using the points per minute stat isn't particularly persuasive because it assumes all minutes are equal and it presumes that if you simply double minutes played you will double stats. Neither are true. Coming in and playing against backups or at the end of the game is not the same as playing against starters or at the beginning of the game.

Colvin shot three threes in a few minutes at the end of a game against the bench. Does that mean he'd have done the same if he played those same minutes starting the game? Of course not.

A lot of posters def think that about Colvin 😂

 

[Chi-Boiler]

A lot of posters def think that about Colvin 😂

And Waddell apparently.

 

[Boiler Buck]

NOT ENOUGH.

Most accurate post on board ...lol

 

[Born Boiler]

Using the points per minute stat isn't particularly persuasive because it assumes all minutes are equal and it presumes that if you simply double minutes played you will double stats. Neither are true. Coming in and playing against backups or at the end of the game is not the same as playing against starters or at the beginning of the game.

Colvin shot three threes in a few minutes at the end of a game against the bench. Does that mean he'd have done the same if he played those same minutes starting the game? Of course not.

Furst has 33 starts in his Purdue career, virtually all at forward for teams ranked as high as No. 1, so we know full well what he does when given time, just as his numbers still show. He’s certainly not been playing with the walk-ons at garbage time. He’s only being regarded and treated as such by fans who refuse to acknowledge actual production while merely parroting subjective observations that are grossly inaccurate.

When this team has struggled most, first look at Furst’s minutes and his performance.

For those happy with the showings at Rutgers, then consider another game -- Nebraska. That one only cost first place in the Big Ten and in the national polls. Purdue got beaten up inside and out and was blown out 88-72 by a middle-of-the-pack team. Gillis was great on the perimeter, making five threes for 16 points in his 29 minutes, but Edey got no help inside and was held to 15 points and seven rebounds. Kaufman-Renn was shut out, failing to get off even one shot from the field and missing his only free throw in his 15 minutes. He did have five rebounds. Gillis had just one. Furst had three rebounds and three points, making his only shot and only free throw, with no turnovers … but he got only six minutes.

Then there was Northwestern, a 92-88 loss in overtime. A defensive gem. Kaufman-Renn had three points and two rebounds in his 13 minutes, missing all three of his shots from the floor and half of his six free throws with three turnovers, while Gillis scored four to go with six rebounds and two turnovers in 29 minutes. Furst played only 11 of the 45 minutes yet also had four points and six rebounds … but with none of Purdue’s 17 turnovers.

Garbage time? Yeah, sure. Given more time, we’d see better results for the team.

 

[Born Boiler]

NOT ENOUGH.

I agree. When he plays, everyone’s happy. Very happy at Our House.