Vince and Biggie running the high ball screen....
- Thread starter bonefish1
- Start date
Not sure if I like Vince in that position to make decisions/reads with ball.
Maybe CE since he can get to the rim or DM since he is great passer and can hit pull up J.
I definitely think Purdue should do this with Biggie more so he can pop and hit 3 or dive to rim if that is open.
I agree with CE and CS doing more ball screens. Those two are on another level when they are working off of each other.
I think that Vince and Swanigan are similar enough that defenses normally could just switch without creating a bad mismatch.
I was thinking that VE is a good enough ball handler that he should be able to take most 4's and 5's off the dribble and either get to the rim, draw a foul or kick out to a shooter. If they don't hedge on him, VE can shoot an open 3 (of course, that's assuming we're getting good Vince).
I see no reason it couldn't be run with any of the three (Vince Carsen Dakota). I think it would be done when Haas is out.
I don't want VE put in that position.
Vince, with his questionable handles, is a turnover waiting to happen. He's not very good at ballhandling and passing into the post. Frankly, I'm tired of the good Vince/bad Vince routine. Why can't Purdue get good Vince every game?
Personally, I think it's all mental with him.
I'd rather see Mathias running it with his mid range jumper and passing ability. He has the ability to hit Biggie if the big hedges out too far to protect the guard on the three.
Mathias doesn't have the ability to get to the rim at will (one of the options that needs to be available in the pick & roll) like CE does. The coaches also seem so slow to go to things like this more often. What are they waiting for: it's February!
Yes. Mathias does a nice job with ball screens. I agree that he is the most likely to reward Biggie for the screen.
Yes.....wouldn't mind seeing more of the Biggie Boiler Boogie down the stretch this year.
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would have to be done without Haas..and it always comes down to the perimeter threat with the ball. It would have to be a set...special occasion becasue Purdue runs off ball screens typically. Whoever had the biggest and slowest defender on biggie or Vince along with the most expected to make a shot if not covered would be the set. Besides the ball handler needing to be a threat on the perimeter and have an ability to drive, it also requires the screener to be able to hit the jump shot...and ALL that is dependent on have a big mistamatch in quickness with the defender that is originally covering the screener. ONCE refs get their head out of their a$$ and start calling the game real and eliminate the touch fouls, then that scenario will lose some of its effect because that is also a perfect time to double as is any ball screen. I know you know all that...
Agree with the mental part. But at this point, with a 3 year body of work, I think you have to accept you're not going to get the good/locked-in VE every game and simply work around it.
On the bright side I think this team knows or is at least learning who it can count on in tough situations like in a hostile road environment or in crunch time of a close game.
So you think John Stockton could 'get to the rim at will'? If you think that, you don't truly understand the immense options when it comes to high ball screens. A jump shot is just as effective and I would argue just as effective as getting to the rim because it allows the big man to work down along with pulling the defender on the big out more which puts more stress on the backside help to collapse on that rolling big.
I agree, but DM has scored a lot more at the rim this year than previous years, probably just an experience thing of knowing when to attack, when to pull up for a jumper and when a big is baiting you into the lane so they can swat your shot.
I do think CE is the best to the rim option and would like to see him take it more aggressively at bigs to draw fouls as opposed to worrying about getting a shot blocked.
NBA D is different than college D. Every NBA team has 2-3 guys who can protect the rim, most college teams have 1, if that. PU gets killed on the high ball screen because it opens the lane and forces teams to help which leaves someone open.
We'll see a ton of that tonight where an iu guy will make some crazy drive to the hole, the D will collapse, and he'll throw a 25 foot pass back out past the 3 pt line for a jumper.
With yogis gone, there shouldn't be anyone on IU who we can't guard one on one outside of maybe Bryant beating one of our bigs in a drive. Even if Blackmon or Morgan get a step, forcing IU to take a two instead of a three is always a favorable outcome. It's the 3 that gets them wins. We absolutely cannot collapse on drives.
Johnson, Blackmon, Jr., Newkirk, Jones, and Green are undoubtedly collectively quicker than C. Edwards, Thompson, Mathias, Albrecht, and Cline, so guarding them one-on-one/man-to-man isn't going to be as manageable as you might expect.
While that may be true, therr are ways to defend rhat deny the ball handler a chance to get going towards the basket.
While that may be true, once again, more often than not, those guys are trying to get the defense to collapse for a kick out for an open 3. In other words, they aren't looking to score and for the few times I see us getting beat off the dribble, allowing a 2 is favorable compared to allowing an open 3 over the course of a whole game.
There were a few possessions tonight were they were clearly scored on because they were chasing them around in man rotations when a 1-3-1 or 2-3 would have stifled IU for a few possessions. They beat IU without doing that (or using much in the way of pick & rolls, save for Mathias with Swanigan out of a time-out) or shooting well from three but against better competition, they'll need more adjustments defensively.
This discussion got me curious about how many times Biggie sets ball screens within Purdue's motion offense, so I kept track last night. Biggie played 29 minutes against IU, and here is my tally for how many times he screened for each ball handler (I very well could have missed one or two):
Dakota: 4 times + 2 additional times he slipped the screen & dove to the hoop before setting it (like that last 3pt play).
PJ: 3 times + 1 slip + 1 where PJ denied the screen
Carsen: 3 times
Cline: 1
Vince: 3
Spike: 1
I don't know what this tells us (if anything), but I thought I'd share since I kept track. About halfway through the game, I wished I had marked the play outcome as well because there were some buckets and at least 1 TO from these plays.
Dakota: 4 times + 2 additional times he slipped the screen & dove to the hoop before setting it (like that last 3pt play).
PJ: 3 times + 1 slip + 1 where PJ denied the screen
Carsen: 3 times
Cline: 1
Vince: 3
Spike: 1
I don't know what this tells us (if anything), but I thought I'd share since I kept track. About halfway through the game, I wished I had marked the play outcome as well because there were some buckets and at least 1 TO from these plays.
I guess in my mind, when I imagine CE and Swanigan (or it could be Haas or VE) in pick-and-roll action, I envision the other three players being spread out on the wings instead being in their usual starting positions in the motion offense. That's what I need to clarify.
I know I'm probably arguing semantics here, but good/bad Vince typically only applies to his literal offensive game. As pointed out after the Maryland game, he rarely has an unimpressive stat line after FG attempts. And like it or not, some of it has to do with match ups.
VInce is averaging over 5 rebounds a game (2nd on the team), over 3 assists per game (2nd on the team), 3rd on the team in blocks and 4th in steals.
Man, trying not to hurt myself with my self back-patting, but that high pick role with Biggie/DM sealed the game. Great play call by MP and great read by both DM and Biggie.
They knew Bryant would overhedge giving Biggie the open dive to the hole. Thing of beauty to watch it work.
They knew Bryant would overhedge giving Biggie the open dive to the hole. Thing of beauty to watch it work.
This is why he was recruited as a stretch 4 nd had so much success there. The 3 has been a lot more challenging for him.
Actually there was no pick and roll, Biggie slipped well before Dakota was close and the help side was all behind the three point line. The ball was in the best passers hand that also has an inbetween game and a chance to isolate Biggie with help coming from Morgan that left Vince (who had been shooting well) on the baseline wide open. If the pick and roll was the major intent, Matt might have selected Carsen who actually scored better than Dakota and had a better chance of getting to the rim. IU had extended their defense all game on shooters and this was no exception. None of this says that Dakota couldn't have used a pick and roll as the first intent, but with the ball in the best passers hands and high IQ...I suspect Matt thought they would still play tight on everyone and isolate Biggie inside. Dakota actually led Biggie too much (maybe biggie slipped a little earlier than Dakota thought, but also allowed a better passing angle) but those mitts grabbed it anyway. No doubt Morgan thought he had to hug Vince too much (he could have played off a little more) and it left Morgan too far away for the help D. It was also nice that the set started with Carsen dribbling to the left side of the court so that Dakota had his strong hand to go with. It has been my observation that with all things equal (said this a few times) I think Matt prefers to get some lefties...isn't Eastern a lefty? This helps balance out the court between strong hands since a typical offense has over 70% of the offense starting with a pass to the right wing.
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Now none of us know exactly what the thoughts were in the slip by Biggie. However, we do know that Carsen made a handoff, not a pass and so the intent was to take the ball to Dakota and get it in Dakota's hands. We know any pick and roll would have to involve Biggie or Vince...and that Vince was shooting better from the outside as Biggie was looking tired. We know that Carsen is the quickest and has teh best chance to actually get to the rim "if" that was the desire. We know that if Carsen was to have the ball in his hands that would free Dakota one of the most consistent shooters on the perimeter as a key perimeter shooter. We know that a pick and roll with Vince would place Biggie on the perimeter in a game that he had not shot particularly well. Therefore, it is my belief that Matt thought it would be a hard hedge and that the slip was called out and if covered, then the inbetween player with good decision making still had the ball... if the pass could not be made. Now some could say that Matt just didn't want the ball in Carsen's hands being a freshman in teh closing seconds, but I think all along he thought the slip would be there.
