I know people like to talk about Tillers recruiting falling off. I know the one year he smoked it with Indiana landing the top 8 players? While Baker and Tardy panned out the Indiana boys were wasted scholarships. I know I might have missed a kid but off top of my head can't think. The rule coming down about schools using their own airports really killed Tiller in Texas where he was killing it early on.
Tiller recruiting/Purdue airport
- Thread starter takedownboiler
- Start date
Recruits used to get direct flights to our airport and on our planes I believe. Can't remember the whole story.
The NCAA banned charter and private planes, which as an aviation school I'm sure Purdue was able to leverage quite easily. Instead, recruits flying into Purdue would need to travel via a public airline, the closest of which is Indianapolis. I'm not sure what the NCAA's motivation was, but to me it seems to have created an inequality, as schools located near commercial airports can get recruits on campus much more easily and quickly.
I was not aware of this until know, but it's a good observation and does seem to coincide with a drop in performance on the field from around 2005ish onward.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43898-2004Aug5.html
Additionally we could land our planes at Podunk airfield in the middle of nowhere Texas. Now the players have to get to an airfield that has commercial traffic. Hits us on both ends.
On a lesser note, Indy doesn't have the most direct flights.
Yes. This is interesting. But I think it's just an excuse.
Did a little research. Purdue and IU are short on flights
Alabama, auburn, ole miss don't have airports. Clemson too
I stopped my search after looking at those 4. Those four seemed to have figured out the travel issues.
I Do agree that we aren't in the same class as those schools. So a recruit is more likely to pass on a trip to Purdue if travel is an issue.
We should still be able to go 6-6 with driving people up from Indy!!!
Did a little research. Purdue and IU are short on flights
Alabama, auburn, ole miss don't have airports. Clemson too
I stopped my search after looking at those 4. Those four seemed to have figured out the travel issues.
I Do agree that we aren't in the same class as those schools. So a recruit is more likely to pass on a trip to Purdue if travel is an issue.
We should still be able to go 6-6 with driving people up from Indy!!!
Or keeping kids in Indiana from looking elsewhere. The kicker for me is not the Indiana kid who goes to ND or OSU or Michigan, but the Indiana kid who goes to Virginia Tech or another mid-level major conference school.
I remember talking to Coach Tiller at the time, and he thought that it was an enormous blow to our recruiting. A big part of the problem was that, prior to the rule-change, we could pick up a player after his Friday game, or on Saturday morning, and get him on campus for a full weekend of recruiting activities. Once the change was in place, that simply wasn't possible for recruits from many parts of the country.
As everyone discussed, the rule limits traffic through commercial airports AND made it difficult to get players from just about anywhere to Purdue before a NOON start.
Tiller hated noon starts (Thanks Morg for the noon starts). I'm guessing if Tiller had his way most or all of the games would have started at 3:30 or later. (Thanks for the lack of lights)
Ok a few things....
1. We did bring some recruits in directly to the Purdue airport. But to say we were brining a significant percentage of our recruits in this way is just not true. It's not like Purdue had a fleet of private jets bringing these people in every week. This was used rather sparingly.
2. Purdue's not the only place in the country that doesn't have a commercial airport. Many schools are in the same predicament as Purdue. Someone mentioned above several other major schools that have their closest airport 1+ hour away. It's not like our nearest airport was 3 hours away. And not only is Indy 1 hour away, but Chicago is 2 hours away where you can fly from almost anywhere in the country non-stop. Is it ideal? No. But again, it's not just a rule that affected Purdue.
3. I'm not a big fan of Burke, but not everything can just be blamed on Burke. Any Purdue game on TV Burke has almost no control over. He can beg and plead to change a time here or there, but it likely won't happen.
Actually it is a catch 22 in that the poor quality uninteresting teams games are scheduled at noon and the contenders games are scheduled later in the day. Purdue has to work their way out of the basement to land big time games. I still harken back to the Wisky night game where Orton laid Purdue football on the ground.
IU has more night games than we do. Do you think that's a coincidence?
But again, it's such a weird argument. Because we don't have lights, we don't have as many night games, so we have more day games, so we can't recruit as well because recruits cannot fly directly to West Lafayette via private and have to fly to Indianapolis or Chicago? I mean that's quite a string of cause/effect....
Would Purdue get a BTN night game if we had permanent lights? Could. But for the most part, TV coverage doesn't care about that as much. And again, the Big Ten Conference TV deal basically puts most of our games on during the day. It's not just Purdue games that are at noon. Five of Wisconsin's home games this year were at 11 am ET. They have permanent lights.
Look, I'm not disagreeing with you on individual points. I've made it abundantly clear that I think it's silly that when you put all of that money into the renovation in 1999 - why not add lights? Why leave the south end zone untouched? Meanwhile, they're talking about expansion to 80,000 seats - which was a moronic idea that statistics would never support thinking it would be a good idea.
But the notion that if we had lights, we would have all of these night games, which would make our recruiting better because our recruiting has been hurt by not using private planes - it's a lot of excuses that just don't amount to much, in my opinion.
Our recruiting blows cause of the program we have put into place with unsuccessful coaches. Not because we can't fly in 1 recruit on a private jet a weekend.
I mean it's true to an extent. The Big Ten in general does not play many night games (and like you said, they're usually good match-ups or featuring one of the best teams in the league). Almost all Big Ten games are in the noon/3:30 time slot. There's 1-2 games after that time.
Just to give you an idea....
Purdue had 5 noon games, Michigan State had 4.
Purdue had three 3:30 games, Michigan State had 2.
Purdue had 0 night games, Michigan State had 1 (against Oregon).
So even if you do have a good team like Michigan State - you're not necessarily looking at significantly different game times, whether you're good or have lights.
It is important to keep in mind that until spring of 2004, Purdue WAS a commercial airport. Several different carriers tired to make a go of it flying out of West Lafayette, but there simply wasn't enough traffic. After losing our commercial-airport status, we got hit with the double whammy a few months later when the NCAA made its private plane ruling.
Did it really hurt that much? I don't remember if it was a connecting flight to Chicago or Indy.
The amount of time it takes to make a connecting flight is longer than just driving from Indy (you're looking at 1+ hour of connecting time, plus the flight). So from a time perspective, not sure if it really changed much…just added having to pick someone up.
I'd also add that today there are a lot more flight options to Indy than there was in 2004.
The explanation has to start with the understanding that the best time to get a recruit on campus is for a game day experience (assuming you are good and the stadium is full - which was true back then). Further, the best place for any school to recruit is within a 3 hour drive of campus. Schools in talent rich areas (TX, FL, LA, CA, GA, AL, OH, MI, PA) were not affected as much by this rule as many of their recruits could play Friday night, get up Saturday morning and get to the campus by car in a couple of hours. IN, particularly back then, did not have much high D1 talent. Joe was "making his living" in TX. The Purdue airport gave us an advantage over other schools in the Midwest that were recruiting TX kids. Because we had the airport on campus, and the aircraft, we would have a plane pick up a half dozen kids in TX that all lived within an hour of each other (at a central location) and get them up here after their games on Friday, and in plenty of time to experience a full game day experience. It gave us an advantage over other schools in the B1G that were also recruiting the same kids from TX; because we could get them on campus for a game day experience, and the other schools could not.
Once the rule changed, the advantage we had for those kids - versus other schools farther than a car drive that were also recruiting the same kids (that did not have an airport and planes on campus and available) - was lost.
That was Joe's point.
Once the rule changed, the advantage we had for those kids - versus other schools farther than a car drive that were also recruiting the same kids (that did not have an airport and planes on campus and available) - was lost.
That was Joe's point.
You are spot-on, BoilerFamily! And regarding lbodel's earlier query about where the connections to/from Purdue's airport were located, that varied from carrier to carrier (and there were several over the years). I do not recall that there was ever a flight to Indy (although others may remember that). I made many, many connecting flights to Chicago, and to Detroit in later years.
On the positive side, having an airport and a fleet of planes allows coaches to get on a plane and get to a player's location quickly, smooze the prospect and get back home quickly. I wonder if we utilize that advantage to any extent?
Hawks!!!, I spent some time as a professor at Iowa. I do not recall that during my time there that the University had a commercial airport. I had to fly in and out of Des Moines. I assume that when you say "just about every school in the country deals with these issues," (i.e., losing commercial certification, coupled with the NCAA rules change) you are not including Iowa.
P.S., Did RAGBRAI a couple of times, and also crossed the state another time on a San Francisco-to-Maine ride one summer.
P.S., Did RAGBRAI a couple of times, and also crossed the state another time on a San Francisco-to-Maine ride one summer.
There are no lights at RA? Not slamming just surprised and surprised I never realized this.
Is there a story why? Just deemed unnecessary? Is it the only BIG stadium without lights?
I guess ND didn't have them till the 90's and your program historically has been good so no harm done but that just strikes me as as very odd. How much money could it cost to install lighting?
Is there a story why? Just deemed unnecessary? Is it the only BIG stadium without lights?
I guess ND didn't have them till the 90's and your program historically has been good so no harm done but that just strikes me as as very odd. How much money could it cost to install lighting?
No there are not, and please feel free to slam away, we deserve it. It's not why we suck, but it is one of the many symptoms of the disease known as "Chronic Morgiatic Burkitis", which we contracted in 1992.
Basketball games have become major recruiting weekends (out of football season). This is probably somewhat to do with this kind of rule change. As someone in the DC region, many of Maryland's biggest recruits take their official visits on a basketball weekend.
It's just as football game weekends are big recruiting weekends for basketball (out of basketball season).
.... uh ....
It's not an "excuse".
NCAA rules changes affected recruiting. that's a fact.
Do we need to adjust? Yes. Is it irrelevant? no.
No.
No.
And, no.
I think my biggest problem is that Purdue fans like to point to things and act like we're the only ones affected.
Like you said, we need to adjust based on it - just like other programs have to.
Aside from this issue, it still baffles me that between Hope and now Hazell, Midwest recruiting has not been a focal point. Hazell talks about "State of Purdue" BS, but the recruiting classes have not shown any of that emphasis.
I think Hazell would like to do that but he's getting killed on two fronts 1) He is a really slow trigger. So by the time he offers around the "State of Purdue" he's late to the party and 2) his results stink and he's not a good enough salesman to sell hope or some mythical future.
I have zero doubts if we had a decent coach in here right now, we could land a lot of midwestern recruits ( I know I know chicken and egg). Look at Stoops at Kentucky. Get had a quick trigger and could sell it. The piper may be calling him to pay up soon but he hit the ground hot. If Hazell came out of the gate firing in 2013 instead of taking a long ass time with his review process I bet we'd see a more clearly defined and fertile "State of Purdue"
Not making excuses . . . there are no excuses, recruiting is hard work and staff has to find a way to succeed. Simply explaining what Joe's point was about the airport issue.
Tiller had a "plan" and he executed on that plan. First, he put the compass point at WL and drew a circle with a 300 mile radius. Second, he went hard into states that did not have a dominant state school that locked up all the talent (Connecticut and New Jersey). Third, he recruited TX hard. He tried to land 4 to 5 top shelf immediate impact players per year. He knew if he did that, after a few years, he would have 20 plus of them on the roster at any given time. For the other good but not immediate impact players, he red shirted them, then played them on special teams for a couple of years . . . then they were front line contributors as in their 4th and 5th years.
It was a good plan, he executed the plan . . . and it produced results on the field.
Tiller had a "plan" and he executed on that plan. First, he put the compass point at WL and drew a circle with a 300 mile radius. Second, he went hard into states that did not have a dominant state school that locked up all the talent (Connecticut and New Jersey). Third, he recruited TX hard. He tried to land 4 to 5 top shelf immediate impact players per year. He knew if he did that, after a few years, he would have 20 plus of them on the roster at any given time. For the other good but not immediate impact players, he red shirted them, then played them on special teams for a couple of years . . . then they were front line contributors as in their 4th and 5th years.
It was a good plan, he executed the plan . . . and it produced results on the field.
I agree with that. There was a plan that was realistic.
One of my biggest critiques of both Hope and Hazell has been...
1. Operating without a plan (or realistic plan). Hazell has this "State of Purdue" garbage that came up out of nowhere. Yet, his recruiting classes do not remotely fit the "State of Purdue" plan he presents. Nor does it seem like he's trying (see some of the people we've not recruited under our noses).
2. Not recruiting the midwest. Neither coach has done well with this, let alone really tried. And even within the state, you've seen IU have an emphasis on recruiting in-state and making it the "Hoosier" state. I've mentioned camps before. Purdue doesn't have an overnight camp for anyone except QBs. How many guys are going to come from a talent-rich area like Ft. Wayne to an early morning day camp? Probably not many. And even if you only want to do day camps, have a camp IN Ft. Wayne, the region, Indianapolis, etc. to get people exposed to you.
The lack of vision for recruiting by both of these coaches shows up in their results.
Ibodel, I share the same concerns as you but others think we are crazy.......Go figure.....
This thread made me appreciate just how well Tiller's Texas strategy worked for us. What is great about Texas is a lot of those players fit in very well with the culture of Purdue. Basically we were taking a kid from a medium sized town in Texas and moving them to a medium sized town in Indiana ex) Landon Johnson and Gilbert Gardner.
The more I think about it, the more concerning it is that we will not be able to recreate that success as the Midwest has seen population migration to the Southern States and recruiting for the remaining football talent is insanely competitive.
The more I think about it, the more concerning it is that we will not be able to recreate that success as the Midwest has seen population migration to the Southern States and recruiting for the remaining football talent is insanely competitive.
