Tighten the rotation?

[proudopete]

Although it seems our 10 deep has advantages over many teams. Wearing teams down and specialists at multiple positions.

But I was watching some of our games this week trying to fill a void, and I wondered if it may be a good idea to tighten it up a bit.

I think all 10 guys play of course. But I can see how using Cline and Mathias at opportunity times only, could make us better.

There are areas in our offense that need work for sure, but to win against good opponents, we will need to shut teams down for stretches.

The best 8 guys on defense so far this year are obvious. Rotating mainly these guys and plugging Mathias and Cline in sparingly, seems the natural progression to me.

Anyone else see this?

 

[Boiler Buck]

The Goal is playing in April.....To do so we need to get better on offense with no stretches of not scoring and all guys need to get more tenacious on team D. All 10 guys need PT to accomplish this. And Cline and Mathias draining threes consistently will be a big part of that.

BTW....When you say the best 8 guys on D are obvious -- I hope you do not think Swanigan is in that group...although a passer & great rebounder, his D could stand all the PT he could get to improve.

 

[BoilerFan#35]

No reason to cut two quality players out of the rotation. Last year we cut guys that were not making great decisions. We have 10 quality players don't need to cut anyone.

 

[dumpsterFyre]

No, our depth is an advantage, especially wit the new shot clock (more posessions per game). This is better squad than the 2013 and 2014 squads top to bottom.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

If you follow the majority of games this season, Coach Painter has tightened the rotation in the second half. As the coach, he has the luxury this year of getting guys in to the game in the first half and judging who is and isn't having a good day. Some days, Cline appears to come off the bench and play superior to both Mathias and Stephens. Other days, its the other two or a combination. At times, it has shown that all three are playing well and that is when Purdue is at their most effective.

Coach Painter has the luxury of choosing between 3 (really 4 if you add Edwards) front line players to determine which players or combination of players are playing effectively together. The same could be said for the 1 - 3 positions and the large rotation between PJ, Hill, Davis, Cline, Mathias, and Stephens. There is no reason to cut a player short in quality minutes to maintain their level of preparedness and sharpness to cut down the rotation. At this point in time, all the players Coach Painter has available (save Taylor, Eifert, and Toyra) are able to contribute at a high level against any of the competition the Boilers will see through the rest of the OOC and the B1G season.

 

[slidde01]

Although it seems our 10 deep has advantages over many teams. Wearing teams down and specialists at multiple positions.

But I was watching some of our games this week trying to fill a void, and I wondered if it may be a good idea to tighten it up a bit.

I think all 10 guys play of course. But I can see how using Cline and Mathias at opportunity times only, could make us better.

There are areas in our offense that need work for sure, but to win against good opponents, we will need to shut teams down for stretches.

The best 8 guys on defense so far this year are obvious. Rotating mainly these guys and plugging Mathias and Cline in sparingly, seems the natural progression to me.

Anyone else see this?

No

 

[proudopete]

I agree with all above, that's why I asked.
But here's what I have seen by watching four games in 24 hours.

Our offense gets in a lull at times and I agree that needs to stop. But I think on defense a clear advantage can be seen with a shortened bench, except once again for opportunity minutes. I am not saying we cut Cline and Mathias out of the rotation. But I could see minutes being tightened up, and those are for me the most likely to see a decline.

This team does have scoring droughts at times, but they have also had scoring spurts that have most often come during a defensive surge.

Having Pj and Hill pressuring the ball has worked very well. The post is manned well by Haas and AJ, so that's covered.

Swanigan does have plenty of room for improvement on defense. But his size alone disrupts shots and makes it tougher to get into the lane. Add in his defensive rebounding prowess, and he adds more then he gives up.

That leaves us with the spots most teams will try to take advantage of.

We all know what Ray can and does do. His shot had improved and his driving ability will hopefully. It be hampered by his knee injury.

Edwards has drastically improved on defense in a year. He still gets beat from time to time. But he has the ability to recover often and is getting good at disrupting passes.

Stephens hasn't been the sharpshooter we had hoped for. But his defense has been very solid. Him being on the court has helped us on both ends. Even when he isn't hitting, he has to be guarded. His ability to disrupt shots and his timing on some blocks puts him in above Mathias and Cline IMHO.

Sure we will play the other two and I have no issues with either.

I just see as we get into tighter games with less room for error, a tightening somewhat of the minutes. The area with the abundance of players seem the likely spot to lose those minutes.

 

[TC4THREE]

Mathias has actually played very good defense this year. I would not use it as a reason to cut him out of minutes. Cline has actually done very well too on staying in position. He has some liabilities as far as size goes but if we had cut him out of the rotation in the Pitt game we might not have won it. Particularly with the three shooting specialists off the bench, I think you give them all minutes in the first half of each game and then if one appears to be on fire that night you might lean more heavily to that guy in the 2nd half. None of them hurt us though so I wouldn't go into any game thinking that I'm only going to play Stephens or split minutes between just Stephens and Mathias.

 

[CRBoiler]

If you follow the majority of games this season, Coach Painter has tightened the rotation in the second half. As the coach, he has the luxury this year of getting guys in to the game in the first half and judging who is and isn't having a good day. Some days, Cline appears to come off the bench and play superior to both Mathias and Stephens. Other days, its the other two or a combination. At times, it has shown that all three are playing well and that is when Purdue is at their most effective.

Coach Painter has the luxury of choosing between 3 (really 4 if you add Edwards) front line players to determine which players or combination of players are playing effectively together. The same could be said for the 1 - 3 positions and the large rotation between PJ, Hill, Davis, Cline, Mathias, and Stephens. There is no reason to cut a player short in quality minutes to maintain their level of preparedness and sharpness to cut down the rotation. At this point in time, all the players Coach Painter has available (save Taylor, Eifert, and Toyra) are able to contribute at a high level against any of the competition the Boilers will see through the rest of the OOC and the B1G season.

I'm pretty well aligned with JohnnyDoe on this topic. The approach has been effective, and it's inclusive & fair yet objective in a way the players can understand, which I think is good for preserving team morale.

 

[proudopete]

I forgot to add that with a rotation of mainly Ray, Vince and Stephens, you have 3 positions covered at all times as they each can play the 2,3 or 4 on both ends of the floor.

That allows Painter a ton of options outside of our two locked in postion slots of Pg and center.

Plug Mathias and Cline in there at certain spots and let him see what they can do spreading the floor.

But for a solid defensive game for 40 minutes. I see the main 8 as our main threat.

I am assuming a healthy Ray and only talking about games where we don't jump out to a lead. When we will absolutely have to get some stops in a row to get back into the game.

Those 8 all provide plenty of offensive weapons to score and even more so on the defensive end.

That's all I was saying. I wouldn't be surprised to see it. But with games where one or the other log serious minutes from time to time, like Cline at Pitt.

But when we face Maryland, MSU and maybe Iowa. We are going to need 40 minutes of stiff defense to win.

 

[TC4THREE]

I forgot to add that with a rotation of mainly Ray, Vince and Stephens, you have 3 positions covered at all times as they each can play the 2,3 or 4 on both ends of the floor.

That allows Painter a ton of options outside of our two locked in postion slots of Pg and center.

Plug Mathias and Cline in there at certain spots and let him see what they can do spreading the floor.

But for a solid defensive game for 40 minutes. I see the main 8 as our main threat.

I am assuming a healthy Ray and only talking about games where we don't jump out to a lead. When we will absolutely have to get some stops in a row to get back into the game.

Those 8 all provide plenty of offensive weapons to score and even more so on the defensive end.

That's all I was saying. I wouldn't be surprised to see it. But with games where one or the other log serious minutes from time to time, like Cline at Pitt.

But when we face Maryland, MSU and maybe Iowa. We are going to need 40 minutes of stiff defense to win.

Personally, I think Swanigan is the player that leaves us most vulnerable defensively when he's trying to defend the pick and roll. I also think Mathias plays very good defense and at times he has played great defense this year. Cline has surpassed my expectations defensively which frankly were rather low but I have been pleasantly surprised by how aware he is for a freshman. There's nothing you can do to make him bigger and stronger right now so I could see shying away from him in certain matchups.

 

[Boiler_HD]

The rotation needs tightened when the quality of the bench is low. In our case, any player can have a career night any time out. Depth with quality and experience is difficult to accumulate in college basketball today. We should take advantage of it every chance we get.

 

[gd4now]

At this point in time I think the rotation is fine. I would suggest no change until it is necessary.

What I have noticed is when the starters are replaced the game dynamics change. The defense from the other team has to change and then when they do we bring the starters back in, and they have to change again. It would appear PU keeps them changing over and over and never allows them to get into a flow so to speak.

 

[AZboiler]

I forgot to add that with a rotation of mainly Ray, Vince and Stephens, you have 3 positions covered at all times as they each can play the 2,3 or 4 on both ends of the floor.

That allows Painter a ton of options outside of our two locked in postion slots of Pg and center.

Plug Mathias and Cline in there at certain spots and let him see what they can do spreading the floor.

But for a solid defensive game for 40 minutes. I see the main 8 as our main threat.

I am assuming a healthy Ray and only talking about games where we don't jump out to a lead. When we will absolutely have to get some stops in a row to get back into the game.

Those 8 all provide plenty of offensive weapons to score and even more so on the defensive end.

That's all I was saying. I wouldn't be surprised to see it. But with games where one or the other log serious minutes from time to time, like Cline at Pitt.

But when we face Maryland, MSU and maybe Iowa. We are going to need 40 minutes of stiff defense to win.

If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on Painter not changing rotations until he has a good reason too. Shortening the bench by cutting what I see as one of your best 3 point threats and your best passer is not a good move unless the alternative give you better result. So far that is not the case.

 

[boilerzz]

 

[PU pit bull]

"You mean LOOSEN the rotation.......right?"

 

[Heller]

Cline is not a good defender at this stage. Swanigan makes up for some defensive lapses by being a beast on the boards. Mathias will get plenty of minutes filling different positions.

 

[proudopete]

Well I guess I am the inky one to see it.

I binge watched 3 games in an attempt to lesson the effects of a week between games.

I suppose only time will tell.

I agree with a lot of what was said and today it does S seem broke. It's a good problem to have.

I suppose I just want to curb stomp teams and want 40 minutes of desperation of getting a clean shot for the opponents. I am probably over thinking it.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Well I guess I am the inky one to see it.

I binge watched 3 games in an attempt to lesson the effects of a week between games.

I suppose only time will tell.

I agree with a lot of what was said and today it does S seem broke. It's a good problem to have.

I suppose I just want to curb stomp teams and want 40 minutes of desperation of getting a clean shot for the opponents. I am probably over thinking it.

I would say that binge watching them made you probably look in to some minuscule details and try and FIND a problem to have. Are there some problems? Yes, and Coach Painter has vocalized those at times during the season. Mainly, the issues for the Boiler team at this point in time revolves around not working the ball in the offense and getting the big guys involved. The luxury of the team this year and one they have figured out eventually every game is that the outside shot will ALWAYS be there...whether it is 10 seconds in to the possession or 29 seconds. The key is to make the other team, especially their bigs, defend our bigs for a full possession. When the occurs, you can clearly see how Hammons, Haas, Edwards, and Biggie are able to control games in the second half. It also then allows the outside shooters to have open looks because the wings are forced to help more and more inside.

 

[lbodel]

Although it seems our 10 deep has advantages over many teams. Wearing teams down and specialists at multiple positions.

But I was watching some of our games this week trying to fill a void, and I wondered if it may be a good idea to tighten it up a bit.

I think all 10 guys play of course. But I can see how using Cline and Mathias at opportunity times only, could make us better.

There are areas in our offense that need work for sure, but to win against good opponents, we will need to shut teams down for stretches.

The best 8 guys on defense so far this year are obvious. Rotating mainly these guys and plugging Mathias and Cline in sparingly, seems the natural progression to me.

Anyone else see this?

I think you'll see a lot of playing time by committee - i.e. if we're hurting from the perimeter, Mathias/Cline may get some additional PT. Last year, we saw it a lot with the PG position - depending who matches up best.

I don't think you'll see anyone cut out of the rotation. I certainly don't expect to see a guy like Cline averaging 15 mpg in Big Ten season and would surprised if he averaged 10.

 

[BoilerBulldog]

The comment that Painter shortens the bench in the second half during close games is a great point. I agree with most here that we will keep a 10 man rotation but situationally it will shrink when needed.

 

[boiler62]

Although it seems our 10 deep has advantages over many teams. Wearing teams down and specialists at multiple positions.

But I was watching some of our games this week trying to fill a void, and I wondered if it may be a good idea to tighten it up a bit.

I think all 10 guys play of course. But I can see how using Cline and Mathias at opportunity times only, could make us better.

There are areas in our offense that need work for sure, but to win against good opponents, we will need to shut teams down for stretches.

The best 8 guys on defense so far this year are obvious. Rotating mainly these guys and plugging Mathias and Cline in sparingly, seems the natural progression to me.

Anyone else see this?

 

[boiler62]

If it ain't broke, Don't fix it!

 

[proudopete]

If you watch the Painter interview. He touches on this at the end.

Once again. I am not saying take these two guys out of the rotation.

I just see their minutes overall to be used by other players more so then we have seen thus far.

There will be games that one or both get hot and I can see someone else losing minutes that game.

But I see these two losing the most minutes and probably seeing minutes in the 12-8 minutes left range of each half.

I don't see a lot of difference on offense when compared to Ray, Stephens and Edwards. But the defense has a gap there, albeit a small one. But it does have an overall effect and I can see Painter tightening it up some more over the next two weeks.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

If you watch the Painter interview. He touches on this at the end.

Once again. I am not saying take these two guys out of the rotation.

I just see their minutes overall to be used by other players more so then we have seen thus far.

There will be games that one or both get hot and I can see someone else losing minutes that game.

But I see these two losing the most minutes and probably seeing minutes in the 12-8 minutes left range of each half.

I don't see a lot of difference on offense when compared to Ray, Stephens and Edwards. But the defense has a gap there, albeit a small one. But it does have an overall effect and I can see Painter tightening it up some more over the next two weeks.

To an extent, I think we'll see some tightening against Butler, if for no other reason than that I think Painter will need Davis to be in the game a lot for his defense. Dunham, Jones, and Martin all present match-up challenges. I agree that Cline's minutes will probably be down for the same reason.

 

[arcb102000]

To echo above: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Painter knows what he is doing. Depth is a strength. There is good chemistry on this team. Expanding the playing time keeps players happy and minimizes the likelihood of a transfer. There is nothing wrong with any of those things.

It is a mistake to mess prematurely with success. March is the prize, not December.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

To echo above: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Painter knows what he is doing. Depth is a strength. There is good chemistry on this team. Expanding the playing time keeps players happy and minimizes the likelihood of a transfer. There is nothing wrong with any of those things.

It is a mistake to mess prematurely with success. March is the prize, not December.

I understand what you are saying, but remember that Purdue has essentially gone with a 9 man rotation in every contested game this year. Cline didn't play much against ODU and Florida and Davis missed New Mexico and Pitt.

 

[punaj]

I understand what you are saying, but remember that Purdue has essentially gone with a 9 man rotation in every contested game this year. Cline didn't play much against ODU and Florida and Davis missed New Mexico and Pitt.

CMP said that he goes with the hot hand. Mentioned that Cline didn't play much a few games before Pitt and then came in there and lit it up and got more time that game. Sounds to me that it is a game by game decision.

 

[proudopete]

To echo above: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Painter knows what he is doing. Depth is a strength. There is good chemistry on this team. Expanding the playing time keeps players happy and minimizes the likelihood of a transfer. There is nothing wrong with any of those things.

It is a mistake to mess prematurely with success. March is the prize, not December.

Once again. I am not advocating for a change.
I am merely sharing what I think Painter will do as the season progresses.
We are not going to remain static and we will want to improve.
The OCC is used to tinker around and find out what works and what doesn't.
I think Painter has a good idea of what he has now and I can see Cline and Marhias losing some minutes to players who play better on the defensive end as offensively there isn't a lot of separation.

Some of you people got all out of sorts over this "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" angle.

I highly doubt Painter is a part of that group. He probably sees it as, "we can be better" and is going to continue to go with the best guys overall on both ends as competition gets tighter.

Sure we will see Mathias and Cline every game more then likely. But I bet we see them less and in circumstantial situations.

We can't give every player 20 minutes. That won't work.

 

[CRBoiler]

I can see Cline's minutes going down some unless he makes some more strides on the defensive end, but I think Mathias is part of the core set of players whose minutes will not go down, or not much. He'll get time at both SG and PG. I thought he did quite well last game as back up PG after PJ was injured. His D is good as far as positioning and team D, but he will get beat sometimes 1 on 1. Good thing there are shot blockers backing him. One other good thing: Mathias does not foul much... That's going to be a plus tomorrow if he finds himself guarding Dunham (95% FT shooter).