Recruiting … Chicago what a novel idea!!

[njm8845]

You would have to be an idiot to think I meant Indy had more absolute players than Chicago, which has a population 3 or 4 times the size of Indy. And again. picking 1 random rivals 250 list proves nothing. Look up a list showing all P5 or Div 1 signees over a 5 year period.

No one is arguing that we should only recruit in-state. I am arguing that we have a better chance at recruiting the BEST players from this state, than we do the best players from other states, which Danny Hope proved so spectacularly. We aren't getting a Kerrigan or Kawann out of Florida or Georgia. We will get them only if we are on them first, or they grew up fans of Purdue, or their parents went to Purdue, or they went to our camps, etc.

I guess I'm an idiot then. But say what you mean and we won't have these embarrassing mixups. The point is, I think I've proven that IN does not produce even the per capita talent of surrounding states. I didn't choose the 2016 Rivals 250 randomly; I chose it because you said you wanted recent data. So I pulled the most recent data I could. I'll look into your most recent request.

I think we agree more than we disagree - I'm not saying we should ignore IN either. But I'm not bent out of shape if we make Ohio or Chicago or even Florida a priority. Good recruiters are good recruiters. It's not like if Hope had decided to focus on Indiana, then suddenly all those 3 stars he pulled from Florida would have been 4 star Indiana kids.

For 2015, the best in the state of indiana would be ranked 26th best in Texas. He would be ranked 33rd in Florida. So I think it's very reasonable for Purdue to focus on those areas. Just because Hope failed doesn't mean he had the wrong approach. We can't invalidate everything he did. Tiller famously focused on Texas and that was a resounding success. There's a reason schools like Michigan host camps in the south - there's a ton of talent. And notice I didn't say per capita, because quantity is what matters.

Kerrigan wasn't a huge recruit, and Hope got several recruits of his ranking out of Florida, so I'm not sure why you bring him specifically up.

 

[njm8845]

Here's a distribution of college football players from 11-15.
http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2013/9/11/4718442/college-football-state-texas-california-florida
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2015/4/15/8143431/states-most-players-recruits

In terms of absolute numbers, Indiana ranks 34th out of 51 (including DC). I will continue to say that absolute numbers are what matter. Per capita is bragged about by people who can't compete on absolute terms. It's small town thinking.

Anyway, I took the data provided and divided by the millions of residents in each state. The result: Indiana ranked 22 in per capita talent. Still not great - Middling. Right above Kansas. Would anyone say that Kansas produces a ton of talent? DC is ranked number 1 per capita.

The problem with this is that there's no weighting of the different stars. Producing a 5 star talent should be worth more than producing a 3 star talent.

 

[Bippus33]

Of course Purdue's always going to have players from Indiana. Some will be pro. What we need to examine is the amount of pros Indiana produces compared to other states. The talent just isn't there.

I just don't understand the sentiment that we need to lock down Indiana and everything will be fine. Maybe in basketball that's true, but in football I think we need a broader approach.

Like I said, if hazell was dedicated to getting Ohio, I'd take that. Really I'd take anything that resembles a well thought out plan.

I do not recall anyone saying that only Indiana has to be recruited and all is well but when you loose instate talent that are Three, Fours or who can play power 5 it sends a message to other solid recruits that are on the perimeter of Indiana.
Everybody bitched when Tillers classes consistently ranked low and he of all proved that he could make hay out of state of Indiana and the Chicago Land area but...................We don't have a Tiller for a coach.......

 

[Bippus33]

You would have to be an idiot to think I meant Indy had more absolute players than Chicago, which has a population 3 or 4 times the size of Indy. And again. picking 1 random rivals 250 list proves nothing. Look up a list showing all P5 or Div 1 signees over a 5 year period.

No one is arguing that we should only recruit in-state. I am arguing that we have a better chance at recruiting the BEST players from this state, than we do the best players from other states, which Danny Hope proved so spectacularly. We aren't getting a Kerrigan or Kawann out of Florida or Georgia. We will get them only if we are on them first, or they grew up fans of Purdue, or their parents went to Purdue, or they went to our camps, etc.

Right ON NEW PAL!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bippus33]

Here's a distribution of college football players from 11-15.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2015/4/15/8143431/states-most-players-recruits

In terms of absolute numbers, Indiana ranks 34th out of 51 (including DC). I will continue to say that absolute numbers are what matter. Per capita is bragged about by people who can't compete on absolute terms. It's small town thinking.

Anyway, I took the data provided and divided by the millions of residents in each state. The result: Indiana ranked 22 in per capita talent. Still not great - Middling. Right above Kansas. Would anyone say that Kansas produces a ton of talent? DC is ranked number 1 per capita.

The problem with this is that there's no weighting of the different stars. Producing a 5 star talent should be worth more than producing a 3 star talent.

So.....How are those numbers currently working in Purdue`s favor in or out of Indiana and The Chicago Land Area??

 

[Bippus33]

This. The seeds were planted for this a long, long time ago.

Danny Hope almost wholly ignored Indiana....maybe worse than Hazell has and it hurts us to this day. Not putting all the blame for where we are on Hope but while his win/loss record is better than our current coach he didn't do the fan base any favors at moving the program forward.

Think back to some of our better players when we were good from like 1997-2006. Where were they from? It wasn't from the "state of Purdue" They were from Indiana. Mike Neal. Ryan Kerrigan. Ryan Baker. Ka'waan Short. Anthony Spencer. Bernard Pollard. Stanford Keglar.

Outside of that, the list is bigger of guys who were better than average contributors from the state.

Whoever the next guy is HAS to get back to cultivating those relationships with in state coaches. We have to land 1-2 of the top 5 in IN and maybe 5 of the top 10 and a few other decent prospects from the state if we want to get back to where we were when we were winning 8-9 games a year. Indiana football talent has come a LONG way over the past 10 years too....which sucks....it directly coincides with the time that we weren't getting top in state talent.

pBoiler18.....Could not have said it better...My family were never big fan`s of Alex Agase but he once told a group that his players from beyond the mid-west had talent and his players from Indiana "Gave a Damn!"

 

[Bippus33]

You're right, I didn't think you were talking per capita because you never mentioned that phrase. Once again, that's even more absurd if you think we should lock down Indiana because it has high per capita talent. Absolute quantity is what matters here, not a qualified quantity based on state population.

But let's go down that per capita road anyway...

IL: 3 / 12.9M = .24
IN: 3 / 6.5M = .46
OH: 11/ 9.9M = 1.1
MI: 8 / 9.9M = .81

Uh oh, even going by talent per million residents, Indiana is nothing special. And again, the southern states, especially in per capita terms, blow out the midwest in terms of talent.

So once again, I'm not sure how anyone can claim with a straight face that Indiana produces a "ton of talent".
Yes it's one list. Would you like for me to look at other years as well? At what point will the sample size make you reject your original statement? You're right, I don't live in Indy. But sometimes being further from the situation helps one to see things more clearly.

I agree that by location alone, it's easier to recruit Indiana than other states. But in a state that doesn't have a lot of talent to begin with (not to mention fighting with ND and IU for the best), I think the coach needs a more progressive philosophy than "Oh I'll just focus on Indiana - since they're the easiest kids to get". Chicago is an obvious place, and I'm really disappointed in how we've recruited Ohio, especially since we were told that Hazell had a lot of connections there.

And Why are we having to fight with IU for talent???????

 

[Bippus33]

!

It is not a lot of talent, but we need to get the 2nd-5th best players in the state every year. Reality is when we get that Parade All-American he is going to go to ND, Ohio State, Michigan. We need to not focus everything on Indiana, but start beating IU again with in-state players as well as not letting other mid-level teams come in and take players. Indiana has been good to Purdue historically. Not saying NOT to recruit Texas or Florida or Ohio, but make sure we get the players in-state who are pretty good.

Well stated 101!!!

 

[Bippus33]

Right, so let's look at the data in a different way. This is from ESPN's 2015 rankings:

IN
Best prospect rating: 81
10th best rating: 76
20th best: 74
30th best: 65

IL
Best: 93
10th: 79
20th: 77
30th: 75

OH
Best: 90
10th: 80
20th: 78
30th: 77

MI
Best: 83
10th: 76
20th: 74
30th: 72

PA
Best: 83
10th: 79
20th: 76
30th: 75

It appears that Indiana neither has the top end talent nor depth of surrounding states. No matter how much Indiana residents want this to be true, IN does not produce a ton of talent in football.

And we aren't even getting those.......Thank you for making my point!!!!! We don't win anywhere anymore!!!
Sorry for the Trump-ism......

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Right, so let's look at the data in a different way. This is from ESPN's 2015 rankings:

IN
Best prospect rating: 81
10th best rating: 76
20th best: 74
30th best: 65

IL
Best: 93
10th: 79
20th: 77
30th: 75

OH
Best: 90
10th: 80
20th: 78
30th: 77

MI
Best: 83
10th: 76
20th: 74
30th: 72

PA
Best: 83
10th: 79
20th: 76
30th: 75

It appears that Indiana neither has the top end talent nor depth of surrounding states. No matter how much Indiana residents want this to be true, IN does not produce a ton of talent in football.

wow, states that are 2 and 3 times our size have more football players. Groundbreaking stuff there.

We've had 5 first round picks in the last 40 years. 4 were from Indiana. Think that's a coincidence?

 

[Bob the Boiler]

I cannot believe we aren't getting the recruits with our "One Brick Higher" motto. What do these kids want?

 

[njm8845]

More football players = more chance that Purdue gets one. Georgia has 2 P5 schools. Ohio has 1. Indiana has 3. Any logical coach will recruit where there's a lot of absolute talent, not per capita talent. Per capita talent doesn't matter except to make residents of small states feel better about themselves.

Let's look at your point more closely.

From 1998 to 2004, generally considered Purdue's good years, we had 25 players drafted. 5 were from Indiana, which is 20%.

From 2006 to 2015, generally considered relatively bad years, we had 18 players drafted. 9 were from Indiana, which is 50%.

My point has been this whole time that we'll always get Indiana kids. But when Purdue's good, our roster is supplemented with talent from states who live and breathe football - texas, florida and ohio.

One more way to look at it: Of the 12 officially in Purdue's "Cradle of QB's", 3 are form Indiana. That's 25%. I don't know how many ways I have to prove that getting IN talent isn't critical to Purdue's success. We need top end talent, period. A good recruiter will get that, no matter where they're from. The problem is that we've had poor recruiters for over a decade now.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

Of course Purdue's always going to have players from Indiana. Some will be pro. What we need to examine is the amount of pros Indiana produces compared to other states. The talent just isn't there.

I just don't understand the sentiment that we need to lock down Indiana and everything will be fine. Maybe in basketball that's true, but in football I think we need a broader approach.

Like I said, if hazell was dedicated to getting Ohio, I'd take that. Really I'd take anything that resembles a well thought out plan.

With the current coaches at OSU, MSU, Michigan, and others like Cincy getting the Ohio players, that leaves Hazell with the "left over's" in Ohio and we've seen where his left over's have left the Boiler program. If he had one ounce of integrity, he'd resign immediately.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

More football players = more chance that Purdue gets one. Georgia has 2 P5 schools. Ohio has 1. Indiana has 3. Any logical coach will recruit where there's a lot of absolute talent, not per capita talent. Per capita talent doesn't matter except to make residents of small states feel better about themselves.

Let's look at your point more closely.

From 1998 to 2004, generally considered Purdue's good years, we had 25 players drafted. 5 were from Indiana, which is 20%.

From 2006 to 2015, generally considered relatively bad years, we had 18 players drafted. 9 were from Indiana, which is 50%.

My point has been this whole time that we'll always get Indiana kids. But when Purdue's good, our roster is supplemented with talent from states who live and breathe football - texas, florida and ohio.

One more way to look at it: Of the 12 officially in Purdue's "Cradle of QB's", 3 are form Indiana. That's 25%. I don't know how many ways I have to prove that getting IN talent isn't critical to Purdue's success. We need top end talent, period. A good recruiter will get that, no matter where they're from. The problem is that we've had poor recruiters for over a decade now.

Once again, you are missing the point: we have a competitive advantage with Indiana kids that we do not have in Florida or Texas. We are just another school in those states, whereas local kids are much, much more likely to want to come Purdue.

You think Woodson or Jeff George (bluest of blue chip recruits) would have come to Purdue if they were from Florida? No. Kerrigan or Kawann if they were from Texas? Not likely. We had built in advantages in recruiting all those guys.

And it looks like this trend will continue: of the kids ranked 4-10 in the 2017 class by 247 in Indiana, all who have P5 offers, we have offered exactly 1 of them. So I guess Hazell agrees with your strategy.

 

[RegionWarrior101]

I cannot believe we aren't getting the recruits with our "One Brick Higher" motto. What do these kids want?

Is that still a thing? Purdue football marketing like University marketing (Makers All) is a disaster. Even the things that stick (Boiler Up!) was a Joe Tiller thing. So Hazell I remember "One Brick Higher," "A Players get A's," even this year basketball has "Remember the name" but they haven't done much with that with regards to marketing.

Hazell is great for a gimmick. I know his pregame speech at Marshall gave me chills and motivated me to go outside and cut the lawn.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Is that still a thing? Purdue football marketing like University marketing (Makers All) is a disaster. Even the things that stick (Boiler Up!) was a Joe Tiller thing. So Hazell I remember "One Brick Higher," "A Players get A's," even this year basketball has "Remember the name" but they haven't done much with that with regards to marketing.

Hazell is great for a gimmick. I know his pregame speech at Marshall gave me chills and motivated me to go outside and cut the lawn.

He must have given himself chills also, since he was wearing his jacket and turtleneck on a 90 degree day.

Was that "the bridge" speech? With a modern day Lombardi like Hazell, it's hard to keep them all straight.

 

[RegionWarrior101]

He must have given himself chills also, since he was wearing his jacket and turtleneck on a 90 degree day.

Was that "the bridge" speech? With a modern day Lombardi like Hazell, it's hard to keep them all straight.

The Marshall one incorporated a key... Was it a gate speech? Maybe it was a bridge. I laughed thinking about the GA who had to go to Ace hardware with petty cash to buy a key and a lanyard as props. Bring it back and have DH dissatisfied with the size and go back for the bigger one. Then the thought to pack it in his luggage. We have had some doosies- the Northface puffy vest and turtleneck, Hope with his whistle- what is this, practice? The vest thing drives me crazy, and it shouldn't, but the individualism of it all. Funny how Saban and Sweeney and Urban Meyer and Stoops all dressed like the rest of the staff.

On a semi related note it is like the story about Kiffin at Tennessee where it was recruiting weekend and the coaches started ripping off their shirts like Hulk Hogan.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

The Marshall one incorporated a key... Was it a gate speech? Maybe it was a bridge. I laughed thinking about the GA who had to go to Ace hardware with petty cash to buy a key and a lanyard as props. Bring it back and have DH dissatisfied with the size and go back for the bigger one. Then the thought to pack it in his luggage. We have had some doosies- the Northface puffy vest and turtleneck, Hope with his whistle- what is this, practice? The vest thing drives me crazy, and it shouldn't, but the individualism of it all. Funny how Saban and Sweeney and Urban Meyer and Stoops all dressed like the rest of the staff.

On a semi related note it is like the story about Kiffin at Tennessee where it was recruiting weekend and the coaches started ripping off their shirts like Hulk Hogan.

Needless to say, someone changed the locks on Haze.

Maybe he switched to a Dickie for the Marshall game due to the heat, instead of wearing a real turtle neck? That's another funny visual...

 

[RegionWarrior101]

Needless to say, someone changed the locks on Haze.

Maybe he switched to a Dickie for the Marshall game due to the heat, instead of wearing a real turtle neck? That's another funny visual...

I think he had the sleeves at Marshall but the visual of him like Cousin Eddie in Christmas Vacation with the dickie is great.

 

[nat100]

I think he had the sleeves at Marshall but the visual of him like Cousin Eddie in Christmas Vacation with the dickie is great.

He wore the sleeves at UC in 2013 when it was 100 degrees on the field.

 

[PalmCoastFl]

Of course Purdue's always going to have players from Indiana. Some will be pro. What we need to examine is the amount of pros Indiana produces compared to other states. The talent just isn't there.

I just don't understand the sentiment that we need to lock down Indiana and everything will be fine. Maybe in basketball that's true, but in football I think we need a broader approach.

Like I said, if hazell was dedicated to getting Ohio, I'd take that. Really I'd take anything that resembles a well thought out plan.

The top five or six programs out of the Indy area alone are WORTH LOCKING DOWN. We have some really good programs as well as talent level. I would put on par with the Cinci area for programs.

 

[threeeputtt]

I know it was a different time but Purdue needs to bring in an aggressive Ron Meyer type-as recruiting coordinator . Under "The Ripper" in the 60's Meyer was responsible for getting more Chicago area talent to WL than any other BIG10 school or ND for that matter-all that was needed was an AD (Red Mackey) or Pres (Hovde) to look the other way. Someone like Chris Ash(now Rutgers HC) was like when he recruited Chicago for Bret Bielma or a young guy like Chris Partridge at Mich-a guy willing to work 24-7 and visit every HS in suburbs and Chicago Public/Cathlic Leagues. I doubt anyone from PU under Hazell has stepped foot or showed his face in a HS in the West Suburban Conference, DuPage Valley or North Suburban Conference ( these are large 3,000 enrollment schools on average) in several years

You nailed it. Ron Meyer was a key. The other: Indiana shares 3 power 5 schools in ND, Indiana and Purdue diluting the state. So, logically, Chicago is STILL a key with bordering states. Michigan only has 2 power 5's, Illinois 2 and Wisconsin one.

 

[njm8845]

Once again, you are missing the point: we have a competitive advantage with Indiana kids that we do not have in Florida or Texas. We are just another school in those states, whereas local kids are much, much more likely to want to come Purdue.

You think Woodson or Jeff George (bluest of blue chip recruits) would have come to Purdue if they were from Florida? No. Kerrigan or Kawann if they were from Texas? Not likely. We had built in advantages in recruiting all those guys.

And it looks like this trend will continue: of the kids ranked 4-10 in the 2017 class by 247 in Indiana, all who have P5 offers, we have offered exactly 1 of them. So I guess Hazell agrees with your strategy.

No, I understand your point completely. The fact that we already have advantages in Indiana, coupled with the fact that it isn't rich in talent, means it'd be silly to focus on this state when there's so much more to gain in focusing on talent rich States where our name isn't anywhere near as well known.

Re-read my last post. You cherry pick a few big names, (although kerrigan wasnt a huge recruit) but I showed with stats that Purdue not only can get good recruits from far away States, but also that Purdue is a better football team when it gets major out of state talent. That's why it's imperative to build the brand outside of Indiana.

And hazell very well may agree with "my" plan, but that doesn't mean it's wrong... He's ineffective at whatever he does. I also don't advocate ignoring Indiana. Although I also proved earlier that the 4-10 ranked recruits in Indiana would be ranked much much lower in good football States.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

No, I understand your point completely. The fact that we already have advantages in Indiana, coupled with the fact that it isn't rich in talent, means it'd be silly to focus on this state when there's so much more to gain in focusing on talent rich States where our name isn't anywhere near as well known.

Re-read my last post. You cherry pick a few big names, (although kerrigan wasnt a huge recruit) but I showed with stats that Purdue not only can get good recruits from far away States, but also that Purdue is a better football team when it gets major out of state talent. That's why it's imperative to build the brand outside of Indiana.

And hazell very well may agree with "my" plan, but that doesn't mean it's wrong... He's ineffective at whatever he does. I also don't advocate ignoring Indiana. Although I also proved earlier that the 4-10 ranked recruits in Indiana would be ranked much much lower in good football States.

Apparently, Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Iowa, Nebraska, Stanford, Indiana, Syracuse, Cincinnati, and Virginia disagree with you and Hazell:
https://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/rankings/rank-3599

My point is, we will not be good without getting NFL players out of Indiana, who will almost always be ranked in the top 10 in the state. As it stands now, we will not sign a top 10 in-state player in either 2016 or 2017. We signed 1 in 2015 and 1 in 2014.

The 2014 Indiana class had FOUR 4 star WRs- we got NONE of them.

The Indiana 2016 top 20 were all 3 star players, yet we are signing a truck load of 2 stars from CA ,TX, NC, FL, LA, etc.
This is insanity.

 

[njm8845]

Apparently, Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Iowa, Nebraska, Stanford, Indiana, Syracuse, Cincinnati, and Virginia disagree with you and Hazell:
https://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/rankings/rank-3599

My point is, we will not be good without getting NFL players out of Indiana, who will almost always be ranked in the top 10 in the state. As it stands now, we will not sign a top 10 in-state player in either 2016 or 2017. We signed 1 in 2015 and 1 in 2014.

The 2014 Indiana class had FOUR 4 star WRs- we got NONE of them.

The Indiana 2016 top 20 were all 3 star players, yet we are signing a truck load of 2 stars from CA ,TX, NC, FL, LA, etc.
This is insanity.

So would you say that OSU, Stanford, et al have a focus on Indiana? That's the only way they would disagree with me. I'm betting it's much more likely that they have a "take the best talent no matter where they're from" policy, which is what I've been advocating from the start.

We will not be good if we do not have NFL players. At least we agree there. However I proved earlier that Purdue is a good football team when we supplement the IN talent with talent from states good at football.

Agree also that our recruiting sucks and that we shouldn't settle for 2* kids. I don't know who would argue otherwise.

I think you need to go back and read my post two prior to this one. Because you're obviously failing to grasp my point.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

So would you say that OSU, Stanford, et al have a focus on Indiana? That's the only way they would disagree with me. I'm betting it's much more likely that they have a "take the best talent no matter where they're from" policy, which is what I've been advocating from the start.

We will not be good if we do not have NFL players. At least we agree there. However I proved earlier that Purdue is a good football team when we supplement the IN talent with talent from states good at football.

Agree also that our recruiting sucks and that we shouldn't settle for 2* kids. I don't know who would argue otherwise.

I think you need to go back and read my post two prior to this one. Because you're obviously failing to grasp my point.

All those programs, all currently better than ours, offered those instate players, who were all rated higher than the majority of the players in our class.

If we do not focus on Indiana, we will not get the NFL players in the state, which is what we are doing right now.

Of course we need to recruit elsewhere, but we have a competitive advantage on the instate kids, and to fail to sign any of the top 10 two years in a row is pathetic. I know 2017 isn't over yet, but we haven't offered 4-10 yet, and we aren't getting 1-3.

And to correct you on Kerrigan, he was the #4 player in the state, way higher than anyone we are getting now.

 

[njm8845]

Here's the issue.
Outcome 1 - Don't recruit any NFL kids.
Outcome 2 - Recruit NFL talent from Indiana.
Outcome 3 - Recruit NFL talent from all over the midwest, supplemented with Texas/Georgia/Florida.

You're pushing hard for Outcome 2. Why not push for Outcome 3? That's the key to success. Indiana talent will only get Purdue so far. If you're content winning 5/6 games a year, which is admittedly light years ahead of where we are now, then that's the way to go. But to get to the 8/9 wins a year, Purdue needs to attract talent from the major football states.

From 1998 to 2004, generally considered Purdue's good years, we had 25 players drafted. 5 were from Indiana, which is 20%.

From 2006 to 2015, generally considered relatively bad years, we had 18 players drafted. 9 were from Indiana, which is 50%.

Let's say you're studying for the ACT. You're really good at math (you have a competitive advantage there) but you suck at reading comprehension. How are you going to split your study time? Studying math has decreasing returns. Same with recruiting Indiana. Now, Hazell is a horrible recruiter, all across the board. But any decent recruiter is going to get good talent out of Indiana, due to the so-called "competitive advantage". But focusing more and more time there also has decreasing returns. The majority of recruiting efforts should go to states where we DON'T have a competitive advantage - because that's where the biggest gains can be made.

Also, Kerrigan was rated a 5.6 by rivals. In 2014 we had 2 others at that rating, 2 at 5.7, and 1 at 5.8 (Robinson). In 2015 we had 4 at 5.6. In 2016 we had 3 at 5.6.

So I'm not sure how you're correcting me... as I said, Kerrigan was not some stud recruit worth bragging about. Unless you think that we have several studs in each of the past few years. Kerrigan ended up being an awesome player, but his success doesn't prove some larger point about how recruiting Indiana is good. I don't care where the kids are from.

Once again - only 3 of the 12 in the Cradle are from Indiana.

 

[Boiler79]

Here's the issue.
Outcome 1 - Don't recruit any NFL kids.
Outcome 2 - Recruit NFL talent from Indiana.
Outcome 3 - Recruit NFL talent from all over the midwest, supplemented with Texas/Georgia/Florida.

You're pushing hard for Outcome 2. Why not push for Outcome 3? That's the key to success. Indiana talent will only get Purdue so far. If you're content winning 5/6 games a year, which is admittedly light years ahead of where we are now, then that's the way to go. But to get to the 8/9 wins a year, Purdue needs to attract talent from the major football states.

From 1998 to 2004, generally considered Purdue's good years, we had 25 players drafted. 5 were from Indiana, which is 20%.

From 2006 to 2015, generally considered relatively bad years, we had 18 players drafted. 9 were from Indiana, which is 50%.

Let's say you're studying for the ACT. You're really good at math (you have a competitive advantage there) but you suck at reading comprehension. How are you going to split your study time? Studying math has decreasing returns. Same with recruiting Indiana. Now, Hazell is a horrible recruiter, all across the board. But any decent recruiter is going to get good talent out of Indiana, due to the so-called "competitive advantage". But focusing more and more time there also has decreasing returns. The majority of recruiting efforts should go to states where we DON'T have a competitive advantage - because that's where the biggest gains can be made.

Also, Kerrigan was rated a 5.6 by rivals. In 2014 we had 2 others at that rating, 2 at 5.7, and 1 at 5.8 (Robinson). In 2015 we had 4 at 5.6. In 2016 we had 3 at 5.6.

So I'm not sure how you're correcting me... as I said, Kerrigan was not some stud recruit worth bragging about. Unless you think that we have several studs in each of the past few years. Kerrigan ended up being an awesome player, but his success doesn't prove some larger point about how recruiting Indiana is good. I don't care where the kids are from.

Once again - only 3 of the 12 in the Cradle are from Indiana.

Outcomes 2 and 3 have been his point the entire time. If the SEC, ACC, Stanford, Michigan, OSU, and ND recruit Indiana, we probably should as well. we should have a presence in all of the top conferences in Ohio, Indy and Chicagoland.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Here's the issue.
Outcome 1 - Don't recruit any NFL kids.
Outcome 2 - Recruit NFL talent from Indiana.
Outcome 3 - Recruit NFL talent from all over the midwest, supplemented with Texas/Georgia/Florida.

You're pushing hard for Outcome 2. Why not push for Outcome 3? That's the key to success. Indiana talent will only get Purdue so far. If you're content winning 5/6 games a year, which is admittedly light years ahead of where we are now, then that's the way to go. But to get to the 8/9 wins a year, Purdue needs to attract talent from the major football states.

From 1998 to 2004, generally considered Purdue's good years, we had 25 players drafted. 5 were from Indiana, which is 20%.

From 2006 to 2015, generally considered relatively bad years, we had 18 players drafted. 9 were from Indiana, which is 50%.

Let's say you're studying for the ACT. You're really good at math (you have a competitive advantage there) but you suck at reading comprehension. How are you going to split your study time? Studying math has decreasing returns. Same with recruiting Indiana. Now, Hazell is a horrible recruiter, all across the board. But any decent recruiter is going to get good talent out of Indiana, due to the so-called "competitive advantage". But focusing more and more time there also has decreasing returns. The majority of recruiting efforts should go to states where we DON'T have a competitive advantage - because that's where the biggest gains can be made.

Also, Kerrigan was rated a 5.6 by rivals. In 2014 we had 2 others at that rating, 2 at 5.7, and 1 at 5.8 (Robinson). In 2015 we had 4 at 5.6. In 2016 we had 3 at 5.6.

So I'm not sure how you're correcting me... as I said, Kerrigan was not some stud recruit worth bragging about. Unless you think that we have several studs in each of the past few years. Kerrigan ended up being an awesome player, but his success doesn't prove some larger point about how recruiting Indiana is good. I don't care where the kids are from.

Once again - only 3 of the 12 in the Cradle are from Indiana.

OK- I will make this really simple for you: Which of our best teams didn't have several NFL players from Indiana? Because that's where we are headed with your approach.

it's much easier to "focus" on Indy and Fort Wayne (and Chicago for that matter) than it is Florida or Texas due to their proximity. We can have assistants at practices all over metro Indy and be home in time for supper.

And don't bring up Hazells incompetence, because if he can't recruit his own backyard, he ain't going into Texas and beating Baylor, UT, TCU, or Texas a&m for anyone.

 

[njm8845]

First of all, I agree hazell will be incompetent no matter where he goes; I'm not sure what your point is there.

Just because it's easier to focus on Indy doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

Our best teams had NFL players from Indiana. So did our worst teams. Our best teams had NFL players from good football States. Our worst teams did not.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

First of all, I agree hazell will be incompetent no matter where he goes; I'm not sure what your point is there.

Just because it's easier to focus on Indy doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

Our best teams had NFL players from Indiana. So did our worst teams. Our best teams had NFL players from good football States. Our worst teams did not.

My point is if he can't recruit in-state kids, he's not going into Texas and beating the P5 schools that I mentioned above.

Your whole argument is flawed: it is NOT a given that we will have NFL players from Indiana. We are well on the way to a 2nd consecutive strike out on the top 10 players from the state, who coincidentally keep committing to schools that regularly kick our ass on the field. Weird.

I take it you were a fan of Danny Hope's "futuristic" recruiting in FL and GA?

 

[pb1941]

My point is if he can't recruit in-state kids, he's not going into Texas and beating the P5 schools that I mentioned above.

Your whole argument is flawed: it is NOT a given that we will have NFL players from Indiana. We are well on the way to a 2nd consecutive strike out on the top 10 players from the state, who coincidentally keep committing to schools that regularly kick our ass on the field. Weird.

I take it you were a fan of Danny Hope's "futuristic" recruiting in FL and GA?

Hazell not going to recruit for the next coach so get over it. Thanks to no nuts Burk we are stuck with this excuse of a head coach and if we can count the # of wins on one hand it will be a good year.

 

[lbodel]

I think you guys are arguing in circles.

Recruiting is heavily about time and energy. Hope had "ties" to Florida - but Florida requires a 2+ hour flight, driving to and from the airport, waiting in the airport, renting a car, etc. and then driving to wherever the recruit is (probably not across the street from the airport). So basically you're taking up 7-8 hours of just travel to get to and from the state of Florida.

It's not like we were landing 4 and 5 stars from Florida on the regular with Hope. We were landing 3 star prospects (if that).

Nobody is saying that Indiana is just stacked with talent and we can put together entire recruiting classes with Indiana talent.

But when it comes to filling out your recruiting classes, recruiting in Indiana and the surrounding states is 100 times more logical than it is in Florida if what you're after are 3 star guys. And when it comes to recruiting a 4 star guy, Purdue's going to do that more likely based on relationship building than a kid dreaming of playing at Purdue (ala Ohio State). It's hard to do relationship building across the country. You can go see a kid in-person weekly in Indianapolis, the region, etc. if you want.

Purdue's #1 problem is not top-line talent. Our top 20 players are not amazing, but they are at least good enough to compete against the mid-level Big Ten teams. What we do not have is DEPTH. We haven't had depth for 10+ years. This is what has absolutely killed us. In football, you simply do not play 20 guys in a game. And it's also a grueling game that you get worn out as the season progresses (when's the last time we ended the season on an upswing? It's usually downhill every single year - no coincidence).

It's pretty basic - look at a team like IU. They have been better than us for the last few years. However, their top-line talent is really NOT much different than us. Their recruiting classes are not top 20, etc.

So what's the difference? DEPTH.

Purdue's last 3 classes - 41 out of 68 of the signees were 2 star recruits (60%).

IU's last 3 classes - 19/69 of the signees were 2 star recruits (28%).

Again, IU is NOT pulling in a bunch of 4 star recruits - they had TWO in those three classes. They're just all solid 3 star recruits. That's simply where the difference is.

And when you need to "fill out classes" - doing so in your region is a hell of a lot easier than it is trekking to a place like Florida, Georgia, etc. This is what Tiller did. He had his "high hanging fruit" that were the Texas guys he had an in with, every now and then some other national kids, and then some higher ranked guys around Michigan, Ohio, PA, etc. But he filled out his classes from the Midwest and Indiana.

In our 2016 class, we had 17 two star recruits. One of them was from Indiana and the surrounding states. If you include PA, you get a total of 2 out of 17 from the Midwest. That just is horrible recruiting strategy that you're spending that kind of time recruiting kids from all over the country - to get a 2 star player.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I think you guys are arguing in circles.

Recruiting is heavily about time and energy. Hope had "ties" to Florida - but Florida requires a 2+ hour flight, driving to and from the airport, waiting in the airport, renting a car, etc. and then driving to wherever the recruit is (probably not across the street from the airport). So basically you're taking up 7-8 hours of just travel to get to and from the state of Florida.

It's not like we were landing 4 and 5 stars from Florida on the regular with Hope. We were landing 3 star prospects (if that).

Nobody is saying that Indiana is just stacked with talent and we can put together entire recruiting classes with Indiana talent.

But when it comes to filling out your recruiting classes, recruiting in Indiana and the surrounding states is 100 times more logical than it is in Florida if what you're after are 3 star guys. And when it comes to recruiting a 4 star guy, Purdue's going to do that more likely based on relationship building than a kid dreaming of playing at Purdue (ala Ohio State). It's hard to do relationship building across the country. You can go see a kid in-person weekly in Indianapolis, the region, etc. if you want.

Purdue's #1 problem is not top-line talent. Our top 20 players are not amazing, but they are at least good enough to compete against the mid-level Big Ten teams. What we do not have is DEPTH. We haven't had depth for 10+ years. This is what has absolutely killed us. In football, you simply do not play 20 guys in a game. And it's also a grueling game that you get worn out as the season progresses (when's the last time we ended the season on an upswing? It's usually downhill every single year - no coincidence).

It's pretty basic - look at a team like IU. They have been better than us for the last few years. However, their top-line talent is really NOT much different than us. Their recruiting classes are not top 20, etc.

So what's the difference? DEPTH.

Purdue's last 3 classes - 41 out of 68 of the signees were 2 star recruits (60%).

IU's last 3 classes - 19/69 of the signees were 2 star recruits (28%).

Again, IU is NOT pulling in a bunch of 4 star recruits - they had TWO in those three classes. They're just all solid 3 star recruits. That's simply where the difference is.

And when you need to "fill out classes" - doing so in your region is a hell of a lot easier than it is trekking to a place like Florida, Georgia, etc. This is what Tiller did. He had his "high hanging fruit" that were the Texas guys he had an in with, every now and then some other national kids, and then some higher ranked guys around Michigan, Ohio, PA, etc. But he filled out his classes from the Midwest and Indiana.

In our 2016 class, we had 17 two star recruits. One of them was from Indiana and the surrounding states. If you include PA, you get a total of 2 out of 17 from the Midwest. That just is horrible recruiting strategy that you're spending that kind of time recruiting kids from all over the country - to get a 2 star player.

Well said. The entire top 20 of Indiana's 2016 class were 3 stars, yet Haze and his band of idiots are traipsing around the globe signing 2 stars, though I'm sure each and every one of them are "diamonds in the rough."

 

[George Utley]

Do schools like Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin say that they must lock down their state to be successful?

Absolutely, categorically, 100%, yes.

 

[njm8845]

Purdue's last 3 classes - 41 out of 68 of the signees were 2 star recruits (60%).

IU's last 3 classes - 19/69 of the signees were 2 star recruits (28%).

I don't want the goal of Purdue football to be like IU. Yes, Purdue needs more depth. They also need playmakers. And big uglies. And anything else that can help a football team win.

If you're arguing that recruiting Indiana is critical to fill out a roster, then I agree. But at some point, like at the end of the Tiller era, we're going to get bored with 6/7 wins every year. And that's because you need top talent to be where I want the program to be.

Just like Purdue has seemingly never succeeded without an NFL QB, it also has never succeeded without top tier talent at other positions. I wish the state of Indiana provided that, but I don't think it does.

It's well worth the time and cost to send coaches to areas with huge talent pools. That's why Michigan travels to Florida for spring break. "But Purdue doesn't have the name brand of Michigan!" - this is even more reason to plant ourselves down there. Obviously, they need to return with more than 2* prospects in tow. Unfortunately, we haven't had a good recruiter in about a decade. However, failing to recruit in football hotbeds doesn't mean that recruiting in hotbeds is always doomed to fail. We just need the right man for the job.

 

[Like_a_Boss]

Has anyone mentioned that Hazell recruits the state of Purdue? It isn't on a map, so I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly it includes.

 

[lbodel]

I don't want the goal of Purdue football to be like IU. Yes, Purdue needs more depth. They also need playmakers. And big uglies. And anything else that can help a football team win.

If you're arguing that recruiting Indiana is critical to fill out a roster, then I agree. But at some point, like at the end of the Tiller era, we're going to get bored with 6/7 wins every year. And that's because you need top talent to be where I want the program to be.

Just like Purdue has seemingly never succeeded without an NFL QB, it also has never succeeded without top tier talent at other positions. I wish the state of Indiana provided that, but I don't think it does.

It's well worth the time and cost to send coaches to areas with huge talent pools. That's why Michigan travels to Florida for spring break. "But Purdue doesn't have the name brand of Michigan!" - this is even more reason to plant ourselves down there. Obviously, they need to return with more than 2* prospects in tow. Unfortunately, we haven't had a good recruiter in about a decade. However, failing to recruit in football hotbeds doesn't mean that recruiting in hotbeds is always doomed to fail. We just need the right man for the job.

You missed the point.

IU has beaten us the last few years. They're a better football than we are.

You have to be AS GOOD AS IU IS before you can be BETTER THAN IU IS.

And IU is NOT the only example. It's just an easy one because: 1) We're familiar with it. 2) They probably have more "disadvantages" than we do - or at least very similar ones (in the same conference, have to recruit against big schools, do not have the allure of other Big Ten schools, basketball is bigger, etc. and 3) They are STILL recruiting better than us.

It's just baffling to hear a Purdue fan rip IU - when they've been better than us the last few years. I guess denial is the first step. You can't act like you're better than someone when you're not. Yes, the ultimate goal is not to win 5 games a year. But Purdue is NEEDING to do what IU IS doing to get on the right track. Recruiting two star recruits nationally isn't going to do it and hasn't done it for the last several years. Our recruiting is basically no different than it was under Hope - and quite frankly it's worse. The strategy of ignoring the Midwest is NOT working, yet is working for other schools.

 

[lbodel]

Has anyone mentioned that Hazell recruits the state of Purdue? It isn't on a map, so I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly it includes.

This is from an ESPN Q&A:

You have signees from Texas, Florida, Virginia, Arkansas and other states. What is your geographic strategy?

DH: First of all, recruit the state of Purdue, which is the six states that are close to us. And then outside of our area, we’ll hit Texas, Georgia and Florida. Those are the three primary areas we try to emphasize based on the numbers. Those three states were the only ones other than Ohio and California that had over 100 players sign Division I scholarships last year. So we based a lot of things off of that. And then a lot has to do with the ties to our university.


So I guess they are Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and....?

4 out of our 23 commitments this year are from those states.

 

[Bippus33]

OK- I will make this really simple for you: Which of our best teams didn't have several NFL players from Indiana? Because that's where we are headed with your approach.

it's much easier to "focus" on Indy and Fort Wayne (and Chicago for that matter) than it is Florida or Texas due to their proximity. We can have assistants at practices all over metro Indy and be home in time for supper.

And don't bring up Hazells incompetence, because if he can't recruit his own backyard, he ain't going into Texas and beating Baylor, UT, TCU, or Texas a&m for anyone.

Amen!!!!!