Plagiarism

[Bruce1]

Some groups will go to any length in an attempt to detract from their opponent. In this case talking about family values, work ethic, etc is so generic that it doesn't come close to any definition that I have found. There are plenty of opportunities to attack Trump that are real. This is a joke. I can't believe it received any coverage from the press. On the other hand ......I guess I can

http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism/

 

[Beeazlebub]

 

[buygreekbonds]

Let's be realistic. Neither woman wrote her own speech.

 

[qazplm]

Some groups will go to any length in an attempt to detract from their opponent. In this case talking about family values, work ethic, etc is so generic that it doesn't come close to any definition that I have found. There are plenty of opportunities to attack Trump that are real. This is a joke. I can't believe it received any coverage from the press. On the other hand ......I guess I can

http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism/

lol

I give that attempt a 2. You don't even believe what you just wrote. You know she or someone on the staff pulled that straight from Michelle Obama's speech. We don't know what other parts of the speech were direct or near direct lifts from other speeches yet, but you know folks are looking into it right now.

 

[qazplm]

Let's be realistic. Neither woman wrote her own speech.

LMAO if Michelle Obama had lifted portions of a speech by Nancy Reagan or Laura Bush, she'd be absolutely vilified. No benefit of the doubt, no maybe some speechwriter let her down, she'd be personally crucified, mocked, attacked.

No one suggested by the way that Michelle wrote her own speech. We know a speechwriter who now writes for Hillary wrote it. The differences are: a) it wasn't lifted from other speeches, b) no one lied and said Michelle wrote it all on her own.

 

[qazplm]

And I was right, she also stole from Marva Collins:

Melania: "Always trust yourself, think for yourself, act for yourself, speak for yourself. Be yourself!"

 

[buygreekbonds]

Michelle Obama: “…the world as it should be.” In 2008, the aspiring First Lady was accused by bloggers of lifting lines for her DNC speech from Saul Alinsky. Alinsky wrote, in Rules for Radicals (emphasis added): “The standards of judgment must be rooted in the whys and wherefores of life as it is lived, the world as it is, not our wished-for fantasy of the world as it should be.” Michelle Obama said: “And Barack stood up that day, and he spoke words that have stayed with me ever since. He talked about ‘the world as it is‘ and ‘the world as it should be.'” (Perhaps Mr. Obama who left out the attribution.)

Joe Biden: “My ancestors who worked in the coal mines…”. Biden was found to have borrowed heavily from the oratory — and the biography — of British Labour Party leader Neal Kinnock, without attribution. In addition, it was discovered he had committed plagiarism while in law school. The scandal helped bring down Biden’s presidential campaign in 1988 — though Biden’s angry outburst at a reporter — “I think I probably have a much higher IQ than you do, I suspect” — didn’t help, either.

 

[qazplm]

Michelle Obama: “…the world as it should be.” In 2008, the aspiring First Lady was accused by bloggers of lifting lines for her DNC speech from Saul Alinsky. Alinsky wrote, in Rules for Radicals (emphasis added): “The standards of judgment must be rooted in the whys and wherefores of life as it is lived, the world as it is, not our wished-for fantasy of the world as it should be.” Michelle Obama said: “And Barack stood up that day, and he spoke words that have stayed with me ever since. He talked about ‘the world as it is‘ and ‘the world as it should be.'” (Perhaps Mr. Obama who left out the attribution.)

Joe Biden: “My ancestors who worked in the coal mines…”. Biden was found to have borrowed heavily from the oratory — and the biography — of British Labour Party leader Neal Kinnock, without attribution. In addition, it was discovered he had committed plagiarism while in law school. The scandal helped bring down Biden’s presidential campaign in 1988 — though Biden’s angry outburst at a reporter — “I think I probably have a much higher IQ than you do, I suspect” — didn’t help, either.

lol

Fail on first attempt.

Biden clearly plagiarized and he lost a chance at the presidency for it. You know, consequences and stuff.

 

[SDBoiler1]

lol

Fail on first attempt.

Biden clearly plagiarized and he lost a chance at the presidency for it. You know, consequences and stuff.

So Melania Trump is disqualified from being First Lady? LOL

 

[qazplm]

So Melania Trump is disqualified from being First Lady? LOL

Not really...it's not about her. I doubt she wrote that speech. It's about incompetence and it's about doubling down on a lie.

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/19/12221654/melania-trump-rickroll

 

[terminalg92]

Some groups will go to any length in an attempt to detract from their opponent. In this case talking about family values, work ethic, etc is so generic that it doesn't come close to any definition that I have found. There are plenty of opportunities to attack Trump that are real. This is a joke. I can't believe it received any coverage from the press. On the other hand ......I guess I can

http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism/

I don't think there's much question that some sentences were lifted, given that they're almost word-for-word identical, which would be highly unlikely from mere chance.

That said, I do agree that a lot of these speeches are so generic that they certainly "rhyme" with each other even when there's not direct copying involved. They play it so safe that it ends up as just a broad feel-good message that could apply to almost anyone giving the speech.

IMO to minimize damage the Trump campaign simply needs to acknowledge that this happened, identify what flaw in their process allowed it to occur and how that flaw will be fixed, and move on. Is the Trump campaign smart enough to do this though? We'll see but history shows they are more likely to double-down and say that the media is rigging the system against them lol.

 

[Bruce1]

I don't think there's much question that some sentences were lifted, given that they're almost word-for-word identical, which would be highly unlikely from mere chance.

That said, I do agree that a lot of these speeches are so generic that they certainly "rhyme" with each other even when there's not direct copying involved. They play it so safe that it ends up as just a broad feel-good message that could apply to almost anyone giving the speech.

IMO to minimize damage the Trump campaign simply needs to acknowledge that this happened, identify what flaw in their process allowed it to occur and how that flaw will be fixed, and move on. Is the Trump campaign smart enough to do this though? We'll see but history shows they are more likely to double-down and say that the media is rigging the system against them lol.

I watched and listened to the two videos and saw differences. The theme of course is the same. I am sure that you could find lots of speeches prior to Michelle that said the same thing. Not plagiarism.

 

[qazplm]

I watched and listened to the two videos and saw differences. The theme of course is the same. I am sure that you could find lots of speeches prior to Michelle that said the same thing. Not plagiarism.

I'm going to start calling you "A river in Egypt."

 

[TOKenBoiler]

Not really...it's not about her. I doubt she wrote that speech. It's about incompetence and it's about doubling down on a lie.

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/19/12221654/melania-trump-rickroll

First it was the blues, then soul and then rap; now its hokey sentimentality and self-affirmations...when will this cultural appropriation stop?

The RICKROLL was priceless, though.

 

[terminalg92]

I watched and listened to the two videos and saw differences. The theme of course is the same. I am sure that you could find lots of speeches prior to Michelle that said the same thing. Not plagiarism.

CNN showed the text of several sentences side-by-side last night, sentences that were 95% identical. I don't have that in front of me but I'm sure it's Google-able.

The odds are really tiny that two independently-written First-Lady-to-be speeches would have so many sentences with such exact overlap.

EDIT: here it is:

 

[LSLBoiler]

Zzzzzzzzzzz.....

 

[qazplm]

Zzzzzzzzzzz.....

lol if Michelle Obama had done it, you'd be awake.

 

[TOKenBoiler]

lol if Michelle Obama had done it, you'd be awake.

And it would be just as ridiculous. But, I guess this is to be expected during political silly season.

 

[qazplm]

And it would be just as ridiculous. But, I guess this is to be expected during political silly season.

as I said above, the issue isn't with Melania. I don't care about what she wrote or didn't write. The issue is with the incompetence of the campaign, and the doubling-down on lying about what happened instead of just saying, hey looks like she (or more likely a speechwriter) took some liberties, we let that person go (obviously not Melania).

Obama campaigned on how well-run his actual campaign was. If this had happened, that would have taken a serious hit...deservedly.

 

[Purdue97]

CNN showed the text of several sentences side-by-side last night, sentences that were 95% identical. I don't have that in front of me but I'm sure it's Google-able.

The odds are really tiny that two independently-written First-Lady-to-be speeches would have so many sentences with such exact overlap.

EDIT: here it is:

Politicians borrow from others all the time. Dems try to mimick JFK, Reps try to mimick Reagan. Nothing new here. A lot of these politician speeches, along with graduation speeches, are really similar.

If this was something really technical, science related, profound, or something new I could see it. That said, this is the message every parent should be talking to their kid. The topic is so general in nature hard to take this seriously. I had better not tell my godson to dream, have a willingness to work hard for his dreams, and to treat people with respect. Would get labelled a plagiarist. Get real.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

LMAO if Michelle Obama had lifted portions of a speech by Nancy Reagan or Laura Bush, she'd be absolutely vilified. No benefit of the doubt, no maybe some speechwriter let her down, she'd be personally crucified, mocked, attacked.

No one suggested by the way that Michelle wrote her own speech. We know a speechwriter who now writes for Hillary wrote it. The differences are: a) it wasn't lifted from other speeches, b) no one lied and said Michelle wrote it all on her own.

Obama and Biden have both lifted parts of other speeches. Who gives a rats ass?

 

[TOKenBoiler]

Obama campaigned on how well-run his actual campaign was. If this had happened, that would have taken a serious hit...deservedly.

It did happen, but Deval Patrick covered his behind. I'd get this more as a story if Melania were cribbing someone's life experiences and passing them off as her own a la Biden...or maybe...maybe...if she were plagiarizing something more than this generic feel good crap.

And, I don't believe the media would be making a big deal out of this if it were Michelle. They're in full "destroy Trump at all costs" mode.

 

[qazplm]

It did happen, but Deval Patrick covered his behind. I'd get this more as a story if Melania were cribbing someone's life experiences and passing them off as her own a la Biden...or maybe...maybe...if she were plagiarizing something more than this generic feel good crap.

And, I don't believe the media would be making a big deal out of this if it were Michelle. They're in full "destroy Trump at all costs" mode.

Huh? The media spent the hour after her speech talking about what a great job she did. It was only after the plagiarism came out that things changed. What evidence do you have for "destroy Trump at all costs mode??"

 

[Purdue97]

If I was concerned about anything the first lady or possible first lady did /would do, it would be more along the lines of wondering why in her bio she reportedly claims a college degree when she reportedly does not have one.

So if that story is true she obviously lied. That said, if this story blows up, expect Republicans to blow it off, and expect Democrats who simply do not care how much Clinton lies to blow it out of proportion.

Just not sure I care to much what a First Lady/Presumptive First Lady does or does not do. Less of a concern than a VP to me.

 

[terminalg92]

Politicians borrow from others all the time. Dems try to mimick JFK, Reps try to mimick Reagan. Nothing new here. A lot of these politician speeches, along with graduation speeches, are really similar.

If this was something really technical, science related, profound, or something new I could see it. That said, this is the message every parent should be talking to their kid. The topic is so general in nature hard to take this seriously. I had better not tell my godson to dream, have a willingness to work hard for his dreams, and to treat people with respect. Would get labelled a plagiarist. Get real.

Sure the concepts are similar in these generic speeches, which is what I said too. But the point is it's a clown show for a presidential campaign to directly lift exact sentences from a competitor's recent speech, and then to deny that it even happened after the fact. A clown show. Had the campaign simply admitted what happened and owned it, the story would be over already. But thus far that hasn't been the MO of the Trump campaign, which is just one important reason why he's struggled to expand his base.

At least from my lifetime, the President that Trump reminds me most of is Richard Nixon, for reasons such as this. If Trump were running as an Independent and the Republicans had nominated a really strong candidate, I don't think Trump would even be polling at 10%.

 

[TOKenBoiler]

Huh? The media spent the hour after her speech talking about what a great job she did. It was only after the plagiarism came out that things changed. What evidence do you have for "destroy Trump at all costs mode??"

The media helped Trump get the nomination, but now his press is decidedly negative. Granted, I didn't have this study when I wrote what I wrote...just my eyeball test.

http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-presidential-primaries/

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

Sure the concepts are similar in these generic speeches, which is what I said too. But the point is it's a clown show for a presidential campaign to directly lift exact sentences from a competitor's recent speech, and then to deny that it even happened after the fact. A clown show. Had the campaign simply admitted what happened and owned it, the story would be over already. But thus far that hasn't been the MO of the Trump campaign, which is just one important reason why he's struggled to expand his base.

At least from my lifetime, the President that Trump reminds me most of is Richard Nixon, for reasons such as this. If Trump were running as an Independent and the Republicans had nominated a really strong candidate, I don't think Trump would even be polling at 10%.

is there a copyright on the speech or something? what is this? Words like these are spoken a million times a day. Do I owe somebody if I write "select * from table" too? lol...wtf

 

[Toast.]

But the point is it's a clown show for a presidential campaign to directly lift exact sentences from a competitor's recent speech, and then to deny that it even happened after the fact. A clown show.

He claimed that he would hire the 'best people' for everything, but can't even organize his campaign properly. It doesn't reflect well on how he'd run a country, not that much really does. I mean, he's implying Obama is an ISIS sympathizer, a Kenyan, and a terrible President, but now Melania is directly lifting lines from the Obama's to communicate her values... LOL.

 

[terminalg92]

is there a copyright on the speech or something? what is this? Words like these are spoken a million times a day. Do I owe somebody if I write "select * from table" too? lol...wtf

Copyright infringement is a red herring, at least to anything I've said in this conversation.

 

[destewart]

lol

I give that attempt a 2. You don't even believe what you just wrote. You know she or someone on the staff pulled that straight from Michelle Obama's speech. We don't know what other parts of the speech were direct or near direct lifts from other speeches yet, but you know folks are looking into it right now.

A heartbeat from the President the last 8 years has been a serial "Plagarist" first found guilty in college and repeatedly caught during almost a half century as a Senator and Presidential candidate prior to ascending to the Vice Presidency. Of course we are not talking about his wife being guilty of plagiarism , just the man occupying the office.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

I thought the plagiarism thing was a boring media talking point, but man, Melania Trump is a terrible public speaker. In the battle of First __________, she'll be last amongst Michelle Obama (who is pretty damn good), and Bill Clinton (who is pretty damn good). I have no idea if Gary Johnson is even married.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Huh? The media spent the hour after her speech talking about what a great job she did. It was only after the plagiarism came out that things changed. What evidence do you have for "destroy Trump at all costs mode??"

Go onto yahoo.com and look at how many hit pieces are on there in a normal day. It's a regular barrage of negative articles. Mainstream media (outside of Fox) is 100% behind HRC and will try to make Trump look bad whenever possible. Sometimes his damage is self-inflicted, but some of the bile is just outrageous and over-the-top.

 

[qazplm]

The media helped Trump get the nomination, but now his press is decidedly negative. Granted, I didn't have this study when I wrote what I wrote...just my eyeball test.

http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-presidential-primaries/

I don't really find that surprising though. He got lightweight coverage to start because the media didn't think he was serious. As he kept winning, I think they were kind of in a can this be happening mode. I think once he got the nomination, and once the media was criticized for going so light on him, they course-corrected. Also, he's said/done some crazy stuff which should generate negative coverage.

 

[destewart]

I thought the plagiarism thing was a boring media talking point, but man, Melania Trump is a terrible public speaker. In the battle of First __________, she'll be last amongst Michelle Obama (who is pretty damn good), and Bill Clinton (who is pretty damn good). I have no idea if Gary Johnson is even married.

Yep! Every time I visit the Slovenian kinfolk they comment about my speech in the native tongue! Dws

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Yep! Every time I visit the Slovenian kinfolk they comment about my speech in the native tongue! Dws

I acknowledge that there's obviously a language barrier there, and maybe that's all it was, but I wasn't really talking about her mastery of the language. It was the sullen tone, the mechanical appearance of shifting between teleprompters and the inability to squeeze out even a single word without reading it. Again, I acknowledge that it is not her native language and that she undoubtedly is less comfortable in that setting because of it, but the speech was anything but inspiring. I wouldn't have put her up there as a speaker.

 

[destewart]

I acknowledge that there's obviously a language barrier there, and maybe that's all it was, but I wasn't really talking about her mastery of the language. It was the sullen tone, the mechanical appearance of shifting between teleprompters and the inability to squeeze out even a single word without reading it. Again, I acknowledge that it is not her native language and that she undoubtedly is less comfortable in that setting because of it, but the speech was anything but inspiring. I wouldn't have put her up there as a speaker.

We all see things different. Independent of the plagiarism issue I thought she was poised and spoke from the heart about her love for this country (a common message from legal immigrants who became naturalized citizens. Of course everyone thinks it is easy to speak to 18,000 people . . . . Until they try it!

 

[BoilerBiker]

Go onto yahoo.com and look at how many hit pieces are on there in a normal day. It's a regular barrage of negative articles. Mainstream media (outside of Fox) is 100% behind HRC and will try to make Trump look bad whenever possible. Sometimes his damage is self-inflicted, but some of the bile is just outrageous and over-the-top.

during the whole election cycle, fox news & radio has had as much or maybe more negative trump talk than other media.
obviously that has changed more recently when it is apparent he is the actual representation for conservatives.

 

[Purdue97]

Sure the concepts are similar in these generic speeches, which is what I said too. But the point is it's a clown show for a presidential campaign to directly lift exact sentences from a competitor's recent speech, and then to deny that it even happened after the fact. A clown show. Had the campaign simply admitted what happened and owned it, the story would be over already. But thus far that hasn't been the MO of the Trump campaign, which is just one important reason why he's struggled to expand his base.

At least from my lifetime, the President that Trump reminds me most of is Richard Nixon, for reasons such as this. If Trump were running as an Independent and the Republicans had nominated a really strong candidate, I don't think Trump would even be polling at 10%.

I pretty much agree with what you stated. I think they would be better off firing the speech writer that either wrote or reviewed the speech. Have some accountability.

That said, with what you write in your post, much of it can be stated about Clinton as well. That is why the election is as close as it is right now(email, foundation issues, Benghazi, not being truthful to congress). Typical politicians-just deny everything.

That is why I am rolling with a third party. Unfortunately, none of the options are as good as Perot was.

 

[Purdue97]

I thought the plagiarism thing was a boring media talking point, but man, Melania Trump is a terrible public speaker. In the battle of First __________, she'll be last amongst Michelle Obama (who is pretty damn good), and Bill Clinton (who is pretty damn good). I have no idea if Gary Johnson is even married.

Well, I will admit that I only saw part of the speech but thought she did pretty well considering she is not a public figure, English is probably her fourth language, and she was not addressing people in her home country.

That said, as far as a public speaker goes-nobody is worse than Hilary Clinton-and we are talking about President there.. I think lessons investing in a speech coach would have done her well. She just sounds like she is barking and/or yelling the whole time.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Well, I will admit that I only saw part of the speech but thought she did pretty well considering she is not a public figure, English is probably her fourth language, and she was not addressing people in her home country.

That said, as far as a public speaker goes-nobody is worse than Hilary Clinton-and we are talking about President there.. I think lessons investing in a speech coach would have done her well. She just sounds like she is barking and/or yelling the whole time.

Hillary Clinton barking? You can't be serious! Uhhhh....