PG Justin Coleman
- Thread starter PaBoiler78
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Covering something 1000 times incorrectly really doesn't help. It just makes it very clear how much you don't know. Enlighten me on what Purdue IS running. To be clear, when I say slasher I mean a player capable of taking the ball from the perimeter to the rim with intent scoring or drawing defenders for kicks and dump offs. This becomes extremely effective when executed as on of the myriad options of motion offense. It could be done from any position, some more likely than others, unless you don't have any players with that skill set. Having that skill at the one or two would be good. Having it combination with a perimeter jumper would be great. The only real coaching limitation I see is the ability to recruit the skills required all at once.
They are not the same,when have you ever seen Painter french some one in Macky?
You haven't been paying attention. It isn't just Purdue fans who use it to describe what crean is doing.
So, by your definition of a slashing play, Purdue HAS slashers.
I've seen Vince Edwards do that quite often in his two seasons and saw Mathias do that as well this past season. I also remember seeing Swanigan back his defender down from perimeter areas and then make dump-off passes for assists this past season. I've also seen P.J. Thompson do that in transition but not as much (if at all) in the halfcourt setup. So, by your definition, Purdue has 3 returning slashers next season (V. Edwards, Mathias, Swanigan).
VE has some ability to get to the rim. Mathias almost none and PJ no ability to do so.
Mathias did get to the rim quite a few times in the latter half of the season. I agree that Thompson doesn't seem either quick, crafty, or confident enough (not sure which one) to get to the rim often in the halfcourt but he is a good passer in that setting, so if defenses respected his 2PT shooting more he could draw an extra defender and kick it out or dump it off.
Painter took a chance when he offered Thompson and Weatherford. Thompson has proven that he's capable of being a good role-playing PG. We won't find out whether Weatherford was capable or not, but we might get some insight from his next destination (assuming he transfers to another DI school).
How could Painter's offense not be one that three point shooters could thrive in? With big guys like Hammons, Haas, and Swanigan down low, it should leave tons of open shots for the perimeter. The fact is, other players developed over him when his development stalled out and he then missed time later in the season due to personal problems.
According to HoopsMath.com, only 3.8% of Mathias's shots were at the rim. Mathias most definitely isn't a slasher. He only attacks the rim when he has a clear opening. PJ isn't a slasher either, though he is more of one than Mathias.
Vince Edwards is a versitale offensive player who can score in lots of ways, including attacking the rim, but he's a player who is better off letting the game come to him. He's not a player that would thrive as the primary ball handler in an isolation offense. He's a very important part of what Painter is trying to do, but if Carsen Edwards can step in as a true slasher early in his career, it will help a lot.
That said, Purdue had a national top 10 half court offense this season. Where Purdue really needs dynamic guards is against the press.
Lmao every time PJ shot within 15 feet he got swatted. EVERY TIME! Mathias is crafty and can sometimes catch his guy sleeping but he isn't a slasher. Vince for sure can slash though. Basil hopefully will be able to next season also.
Vince yes when he is at the 4. His drive disappeared when guarded by a 3.
Mathias...no. Not a slasher by any measure.
Biggie...Backing down is not slashing.
Think of Michael Jordan and Julius Erving as the penultimate examples or maybe John Octeus as an example from a realistic point of view.
Who did it this year in the last few minutes when we needed to burn clock down low but still get a good chance at a bucket. The answer is "no one". That's why we blew so many leads late in games.
What slashers? PJ isn't quick enough to penetrate like LJ did. Hill was a slasher, but that is all he could do, making it easy to defend him: just block his path. The only effective slasher we had last year was Vince, who could shoot 3 if they blocked his lane, and slash inside if they came closer to keep him from shooting 3. But when you have to play the starting 3 AND backup 4 while playing more minutes than anybody, he just wouldn't have enough stamina to be slashing so often.
Next year is no better, as Smotherman basically replaces Hill as the extra slasher who won't be shooting 3 any time soon. I wish our guards would drive in more often for pull-up jumpers, which in effect could make up for the lack of slashers.
Pull-up jumpers are nice when the shot clock is running down, but otherwise they are usually an inefficient shot. A rhythm three or a shot at the rim are usually much better options.
Why the hate on PJ???? Look at his stats and you'll realize he did an excellent job of doing what a PG is supposed to do. Where PU suffered was at the 2 and 3 slots offensively.
I don't hate PJ. In fact, I backed him alot this year on this board, he did improve from his frosh yr. which I give him credit for but for a top 25 program I think he's a very good 2nd string PG.
Completely agree. I like PJ, seems like a good person and team player. He just isn't the PG I want playing significant minutes. Love him coming off the bench and hitting a key shot or giving starter a rest.
A big part of the problem with opinions on this board is the way we all watch basketball games. Most of you will focus on the guy with the ball. Me too. When we get pressed, we are all looking at PJ, wondering why he doesn't pass out of the pressure.
I had to force myself to look up court. You have to watch the other players too. Many times when PJ was trapped, it was because the 2-guard or the small forward were sitting up court and not moving to get free.. some of the time, it was PJ's fault. Many times, he had no target to throw a pass to. Be careful in making a rash assessment of his skills as a PG.
I had to force myself to look up court. You have to watch the other players too. Many times when PJ was trapped, it was because the 2-guard or the small forward were sitting up court and not moving to get free.. some of the time, it was PJ's fault. Many times, he had no target to throw a pass to. Be careful in making a rash assessment of his skills as a PG.
I think a big part of the PJ criticism stems from how he fits in with this squad. On some teams, he'd be the perfect PG. On ours, one of his greatest assets--his above average three-point shot--is somewhat duplicative of Mathias, Cline, etc. Unfortunately, what we don't have is someone who can break down the defense consistently or someone who can create his own shot consistently. Therefore, PJ bears the brunt of that frustration.
He's actually an effective, efficient guard. But we need someone who can do the above things, and we need him badly.
He's actually an effective, efficient guard. But we need someone who can do the above things, and we need him badly.
I'd add that the slasher/playmaker I described above doesn't necessarily have to be the PG. Add a wing like that, and all of a sudden, PJ's efficiency becomes a greater asset and much more appreciated.
I saw this, too. It was as if no one wanted the ball because they were afraid to get trapped.
There's some truth to what both of you are saying. PJ had a very good season, but there were times when his weaknesses were exploited. The same could be said for several of his teammates.
I do agree that the thought of redshirting PJ sounds ridiculous. As much as he improved between his freshman and sophomore seasons, I hope that he makes another leap as a junior.
I hope he makes a leap also, but trying to be realistic I don't see that happening. He is a 5'10" (maybe) slow guard. Those are a rare commodity on elite teams. He is steady, makes the easy pass and can hit the open 3. What he doesn't do is create off the dribble or pose a threat to drive to the basket. Because of his strengths and weaknesses he is a good PG to have coming off the bench playing spot minutes.
If somehow he improves his foot speed and athleticism to the basket over the summer then that will be a very pleasant surprise. Otherwise, we will be faced with the same limitations at that position if we are counting on PJ for significant playing time. Unlike many others, I'm not blaming PJ for the press issues. In fact, I'm much more concerned with what our offense can do in the half court with or without PJ in the lineup.
Yep. As far as physical traits go, It's the combination of quicks, finishing, and perimeter shooting skills that make an elite point or two guard. As of this moment, Vince is the only player on the roster to show that kind physical versatility for his position. Assuming more of it does not arrive Painter can only work to maximize our players positives and help them cover for each other's weaknesses. It will be very interesting to see if we can gain skills and abilities and also to see how Painter uses what he does end up with. That's what is fun about coaching. It would be nice to have a superior roster though now and then
I get that his upside is limited, but there is still room for improvement. For example, I think that he has a lot of room for improvement in his midrange game which could help in late shot clock situations. He was a catch and shoot scorer this season, but I think that he is capable of scoring more off the dribble.
I also think that he could benefit from getting a little more aggressive in some situations, such as when he is getting trapped. At times this past season, I felt like he was a bit too passive.
Agreed there is always room for improvement. I think he has a very low ceiling, but I would be very happy to be proven wrong this next season!!
I don't think people are 'hating' on PJ, but the fact is, he's very limited physically for a starting B10 point guard.
He's only 5'10
He's an OK 3 pt shooter, can certainly get hot, but he's inconsistent.
He's a below avg ball handler. Has trouble with the press or good pressure D.
He can't penetrate, can't finish and doesn't draw fouls.
Therefore, he's simply a below avg B10 PG. Which translates to what you get on the court.
Can he feed the post? Yes, but EVERY guard should be able to feed the post. Mathias is actually a better passer and facilitator than PJ, but DM isn't quick enough or have good enough handles to run the point full time.
I like PJ, he's a Boiler and on my team. (I just wish he were 6'4, faster, with good hops, crazy handles and could finish at the rim.....yeh, every fan of every team is looking for those guys)
I understand a lot of the criticism, but I don't get your comment about him being inconsistent from three. He may be inconsistent with the number of attempts that he takes, but that is primarily because he doesn't force bad shots. He had very few bad shooting games with three or more attempts from 3.
I also don't think that he is a bad ball handler, I felt that his size and quickness against the press were what caused him problems, along with his lack of aggression at times. I saw very few turnovers this season while he was actually dribbling the ball. I remember a handful, but that's it.
His first 2 years, PJ has exceeded expectations. He showed a lot of heart. Looking forward to see his progress next year.
One of the most successful PGs in school history was Porter Roberts. I don't believe he led B1G point guards in anything except maybe rebounds. Certainly not shooting %. But he was a winner because he had heart.
Porter Roberts was the classic Purdue Keady/Painter PG: Good defender, but not a good penetrator, finisher and a very below avg outside shooter. Didn't look to create his own shot or do much off the bounce.
Of course, Porter had the Big Dog on his team so impacts things.
I think the most complete package PGs from the last 25 years have been Willie Deane, maybe Barlow, maybe Kenny, maybe Austin. Crump? Teen Wolf?
Who am I missing?
I don't remember Kenny or Willie being big assists true point guards. To me, especially Deane, they were more shooting/combo guards. I thought Cunningham was great a lot of the time but inconsistent otherwise. Roberts didn't need to score with all the options he had around him. And Barlow?.....could have been a great one. Damn.
Just some memories since you brought those names up, fwiw.
Just some memories since you brought those names up, fwiw.
Deane wasn't a point guard for Keady, but I don't think that Painter would hesitate to start him at either guard position. I really think that Painter wants a point guard who can score, but who is patient enough to do so when he has an advantage, much like every other position in Painter's offense. He hasn't found the right guy to do that yet (except LewJack and Octeus to an extent), but he has tried. Among point guards that he has offered are Yogi Ferrell (before Mollock committed), Tyler Ulis, Chasson Randle, and Jalen Brunson. I'm hoping that Carson Edwards is that guy, but only time will tell. I also think that Painter would start two point guards without hesitation if he could land the right two guys (see Villanova for an example of this working).
BTW, the main reason that Purdue has been so post centric in its offense is that Painter has had players that give him his biggest mismatches in the post. If Painter had a transcending talent at point guard, that player would be featured in the offense.
Carson Cunningham was a good PG, just like Lewis Jackson was, but yes, he was not "transcending". However, the way the PG's have been coached/used by Keady and Painter and the style of offense they want to have has not allowed some of them to score as much as they could have and be closer to a transcendent type of player. Deane could have played the 1, but Keady always had Cunningham, Austin Parkinson, or Brandon McKnight there instead during his 3 seasons with the Boilers. Just curious, who's the Kenny that played PG? If you're thinking Lowe, he always played at the 2 or 3.
What point guards do you think have been held back by Painter's style of offense?
Yeah I thought the previous poster was talking about Lowe. Like I said I don't think of either Lowe or Deane as PG's.
Lew Jack he had a little bit of a jumper his senior season. He was fantastic his senior season other than the last minute versus Kansas
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