ADVERTISEMENT

OT: Today is a day to remember

A

arcb102000

All-American
Aug 27, 2006
7,567
2,744
113
June 4th is the 77th anniversary of the beginning of the battle of Midway. It was the decisive event in the Pacific Theater of WW2. The Japanese navy was never the same after the battle. To place things in perspective: there were 3 US aircraft carriers involved in the battle. Each had a squadron of 15 torpedo bombers with a crew of 2. Of 45 planes, 4 survived the battle intact. One pilot from the remaining survived, no gunners did. That's a loss rate of over 90%.

It's important this week to remember the sacrifice made for all of us. God bless the memory of these men.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tjreese, Purdue Grad in Texas, 3generboiler and 23 others
arcb102000 said:
June 4th is the 77th anniversary of the beginning of the battle of Midway. It was the decisive event in the Pacific Theater of WW2. The Japanese navy was never the same after the battle. To place things in perspective: there were 3 US aircraft carriers involved in the battle. Each had a squadron of 15 torpedo bombers with a crew of 2. Of 45 planes, 4 survived the battle intact. One pilot from the remaining survived, no gunners did. That's a loss rate of over 90%.

It's important this week to remember the sacrifice made for all of us. God bless the memory of these men.
Click to expand...

Today is also the 30th anniversary of the massacre in Tienanmen Square. Don't let the Chinese sweep that under the rug.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tjreese and neckster87
arcb102000 said:
June 4th is the 77th anniversary of the beginning of the battle of Midway. It was the decisive event in the Pacific Theater of WW2. The Japanese navy was never the same after the battle. To place things in perspective: there were 3 US aircraft carriers involved in the battle. Each had a squadron of 15 torpedo bombers with a crew of 2. Of 45 planes, 4 survived the battle intact. One pilot from the remaining survived, no gunners did. That's a loss rate of over 90%.

It's important this week to remember the sacrifice made for all of us. God bless the memory of these men.
Click to expand...
Those brave young men died on that beach so that their surviving families could relax on the beaches here. God bless them, their brave heroics, and all that they gave that we might live in freedom.
 
BNIBoiler said:
The 1976 movie "Midway" is one of my favorite movies with one of my favorite actors, Charlton Heston. The battle scenes had me at the edge of my seat. The F6F Hellcat fighter planes and the SBD Dauntless bombers were one hell of machines.
Click to expand...

IIRC, at the battle of Midway, the fighters used were F4F Wildcats and not the Hellcats. The Zero fighter as a superior plane to the Wildcat, but not the Hellcat.

The Battle of Midway is very often misunderstood. An excellent book on the subject is "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully. The book relies upon Japanese as well as American naval records which differentiates itself from most of the others which rely only upon American records. Many things that we believe are true about the battle are not fully correct. You would likely find the book interesting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Schnelk, mathboy and BNIBoiler
arcb102000 said:
IIRC, at the battle of Midway, the fighters used were F4F Wildcats and not the Hellcats. The Zero fighter as a superior plane to the Wildcat, but not the Hellcat.

The Battle of Midway is very often misunderstood. An excellent book on the subject is "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully. The book relies upon Japanese as well as American naval records which differentiates itself from most of the others which rely only upon American records. Many things that we believe are true about the battle are not fully correct. You would likely find the book interesting.
Click to expand...
I had the honor five years ago of re-tracing my Dad's steps in the Battle of the Bulge, where he was a member of the 101st, and where 90% of his outfit perished at the hands of the Germans. Luckily for me, he made it home with just a knee injury and lots of bad memories. Everywhere he fought, I was able to stand. Got to fold the flag at taps at the American Cemetery at Luxembourg. What a humbling experience and honor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: boiler2010, Professor Emeritus, burbo and 7 others
TwinDegrees2 said:
I had the honor five years ago of re-tracing my Dad's steps in the Battle of the Bulge, where he was a member of the 101st, and where 90% of his outfit perished at the hands of the Germans. Luckily for me, he made it home with just a knee injury and lots of bad memories. Everywhere he fought, I was able to stand. Got to fold the flag at taps at the American Cemetery at Luxembourg. What a humbling experience and honor.
Click to expand...
giphy.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boilerbuck
TwinDegrees2 said:
I had the honor five years ago of re-tracing my Dad's steps in the Battle of the Bulge, where he was a member of the 101st, and where 90% of his outfit perished at the hands of the Germans. Luckily for me, he made it home with just a knee injury and lots of bad memories. Everywhere he fought, I was able to stand. Got to fold the flag at taps at the American Cemetery at Luxembourg. What a humbling experience and honor.
Click to expand...
Wow. That’s awesome. Thanks for sharing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dakota Girl
arcb102000 said:
IIRC, at the battle of Midway, the fighters used were F4F Wildcats and not the Hellcats. The Zero fighter as a superior plane to the Wildcat, but not the Hellcat.

The Battle of Midway is very often misunderstood. An excellent book on the subject is "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully. The book relies upon Japanese as well as American naval records which differentiates itself from most of the others which rely only upon American records. Many things that we believe are true about the battle are not fully correct. You would likely find the book interesting.
Click to expand...
I’ll have to check that out. Ian Toll is two books through a trilogy on the war in the Pacific. Fantastic. Very similar in scope and style to Rick Atkinson’s WW2 trilogy in Europe.
 
arcb102000 said:
IIRC, at the battle of Midway, the fighters used were F4F Wildcats and not the Hellcats. The Zero fighter as a superior plane to the Wildcat, but not the Hellcat.

The Battle of Midway is very often misunderstood. An excellent book on the subject is "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully. The book relies upon Japanese as well as American naval records which differentiates itself from most of the others which rely only upon American records. Many things that we believe are true about the battle are not fully correct. You would likely find the book interesting.
Click to expand...
I have a copy of Shattered Sword that I’m ready to start.
You are correct about the F6F not being in combat during the battle of midway. It took 1 year to go from clean sheet to production which was astounding and it’s performance was just as astounding once it was in service.
 
ghostoffatjack said:
‘The Greatest Generation” is quickly leaving us on earth as the world celebrates the 75th Anniversary of Operation Overlord aka D-Day!
Click to expand...
Clearly. I heard a comment today that there are a mere 3 of the Free French who landed on D-Day still surviving. While there were few to begin with (about 200 iirc) it is sobering nonetheless.
 
Having provided hearing healthcare at the VA for the past 19 years I have witnessed the steady loss of our WWII and Korean vets. These were the men of my parent's generation. Nearly all of my uncles were in the military in WWII and all were fortunate enough to return home. People born in the past 30 years have little understanding of the way the war effort affected everyone. Rationing of petroleum, sugar and many items was real and severe. Today we panic because of the potential loss of a ready supply of avacados. Women contributed greatly as factory workers producing the weapons of war. In the 80s I had the opportunity to work with a woman in production at Alcoa who was tough as nails and disliked by most because she pushed you to work harder than most wanted to. She was in her 60s and could out work many younger men . I learned that she had worked on the bomber assembly line at Ford in the Detroit area during the war. Her story was a lot like Forrest Gump's. After the war she married and they opened a sporting goods store in the neighborhood of Haight and Asbury in San Francisco. As the neighborhood became a haven for hippys in the 60s her husband found free love more attractive than a wife. If you know any remnants of this generation talk to them while you still can. When they go some incredible stories will go forever.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tjreese, JeffBoiler, Purdue85 and 1 other person
ghostoffatjack said:
‘The Greatest Generation” is quickly leaving us on earth as the world celebrates the 75th Anniversary of Operation Overlord aka D-Day!
Click to expand...
Yes, to be remembered. However, the Soviet victory vs the German Army at Kursk and Stalingrad was the turning point in WWII, not D-Day.
The German Army was on the defensive after losing the Eastern front.
 
typeviic said:
Yes, to be remembered. However, the Soviet victory vs the German Army at Kursk and Stalingrad was the turning point in WWII, not D-Day.
The German Army was on the defensive after losing the Eastern front.
Click to expand...

Don't throw too much credit at the Soviets. With everything coming at him, Hitler attempted to fight the war on too many fronts. Didn't listen to his Generals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tjreese
typeviic said:
Yes, to be remembered. However, the Soviet victory vs the German Army at Kursk and Stalingrad was the turning point in WWII, not D-Day.
The German Army was on the defensive after losing the Eastern front.
Click to expand...
Way to crash a Greatest Generation D-Day thread to tell us how great the Soviets were....ummm...the Communist board...is that way.
 
Boiler_Pete99 said:
Way to crash a Greatest Generation D-Day thread to tell us how great the Soviets were....ummm...the Communist board...is that way.
Click to expand...

I have always wondered if Roosevelt delayed the invasion purposely.
Thus allowing the Russian and Germans to suffer. Thus when the war ended the US would be a real super power.
 
Purdue85 said:
Don't throw too much credit at the Soviets. With everything coming at him, Hitler attempted to fight the war on too many fronts. Didn't listen to his Generals.
Click to expand...
Recognizing the efforts of others is in no way demeaning to those of America. WWII American military deaths are estimated at just over 400,000 while Soviet military deaths were nearly 9,000,000, and over 20,000,000 total deaths.
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/s.../research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war
 
  • Like
Reactions: typeviic and Beeazlebub
70boiler said:
Recognizing the efforts of others is in no way demeaning to those of America. WWII American military deaths are estimated at just over 400,000 while Soviet military deaths were nearly 9,000,000, and over 20,000,000 total deaths.
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/s.../research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war
Click to expand...

?
Where was there a claim of being "demeaning?"
The prior comment gave credit to the Soviets for being "the turning point". I think that's a bit of a stretch, given the relentless assaults on multiple fronts by the allies. It's like a heavyweight taking multiple body blows, then going down with a jab. it wasn't the jab, it was the hundreds of blows before.
 
Purdue85 said:
?
Where was there a claim of being "demeaning?"
The prior comment gave credit to the Soviets for being "the turning point". I think that's a bit of a stretch, given the relentless assaults on multiple fronts by the allies. It's like a heavyweight taking multiple body blows, then going down with a jab. it wasn't the jab, it was the hundreds of blows before.
Click to expand...
I don't believe that is what I said.
Additionally, there is a valid argument that Stalingrad was the turning point. The German summer offensive was very successful. But the 5 month Battle of Stalingrad saw them turned back, never to reach that level of expansion again, with losses of half a million soldiers.
And the above discussion about Midway is also in the mix, of course.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: tjreese
Stalin made a deal with Roosevelt: trade human lives for supplies. Not that he cared much about lives, e.g. the starving of the Ukraine in a time of "peace." So while huge, the Soviet losses were part of the deal, as horrible as that is.

I did read something interesting this morning that I did not know: on D-Day, the losses of the 101st Airborne exceeded that of Pickett's Division at Gettysburg on a percentage basis. And Pickett's Charge is considered one of the most appalling loss rates in American military history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tjreese and Schnelk
typeviic said:
Yes, to be remembered. However, the Soviet victory vs the German Army at Kursk and Stalingrad was the turning point in WWII, not D-Day.
The German Army was on the defensive after losing the Eastern front.
Click to expand...

....and it would have been even sooner if Ike had listened and not played "&*" wet nurse to Monty all the time......then after that we'd have kicked the Russians' behinds back where they belong....all the way to Moscow.....

_________________________________

Seriously, as Arc and others have very well stated and for which I couldn't agree more, we should always remember and honor their courage, bravery, and devotion......thank you to all who have served and whose families have served our nation....

giphy.gif
 
70boiler said:
Please elaborate. I would appreciate some basis or link for your conclusion if possible.
Click to expand...

Surely if you read any history of WW2 you know that this is true. The USA supplied the Soviet Union with supplies, arms and vehicles, sailing into Archangel and Murmansk during WW2. There was no Lend-Lease like we did with Britain. There was a straight-out gift.

Stalin was the only one sustaining a land war against Germany. Thus they were taking the brunt of the losses in 1942-43. The USAAF certainly lost a lot of folks but not in comparison.

Stalin was of the opinion that Roosevelt and Churchill were delaying the invasion and was always pressuring them to invade the Continent.

Without US aid to the Soviets, it is likely that the Eastern Front would have been very different in outcome. Moscow would likely have fallen and the Soviet regime would be in real trouble and perhaps unlikely to survive.

Soviet losses were great, but often because they shot at their own people who they felt were not fighting hard enough. Obviously, many innocent civilians were killed because of religion, ethnicity and by simply being in the middle of a war zone.
 
arcb102000 said:
Surely if you read any history of WW2 you know that this is true. The USA supplied the Soviet Union with supplies, arms and vehicles, sailing into Archangel and Murmansk during WW2. There was no Lend-Lease like we did with Britain. There was a straight-out gift.

Stalin was the only one sustaining a land war against Germany. Thus they were taking the brunt of the losses in 1942-43. The USAAF certainly lost a lot of folks but not in comparison.

Stalin was of the opinion that Roosevelt and Churchill were delaying the invasion and was always pressuring them to invade the Continent.

Without US aid to the Soviets, it is likely that the Eastern Front would have been very different in outcome. Moscow would likely have fallen and the Soviet regime would be in real trouble and perhaps unlikely to survive.

Soviet losses were great, but often because they shot at their own people who they felt were not fighting hard enough. Obviously, many innocent civilians were killed because of religion, ethnicity and by simply being in the middle of a war zone.
Click to expand...

I had read somewhere where Russia made their final WWII payment for supplies during Bush Sr's administration.
I know we were supplying GB with lend lease but I thought we sold equipment to Russia, on a pay when you can basis.
We were in China also at this time. The Chinese paid the Volunteer group directly. The flying Tigers as they were called. I think the US sold the planes to China though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
 
Before this thread gets too bogged down in chest-thumping, it seems appropriate to post the humble words of a great leader (emphasis mine):

THIS DAY is the tenth anniversary of the landing of the Allied Expeditionary Force in Normandy. That combined land-sea-air operation was made possible by the joint labors of cooperating nations. It depended for its success upon the skill, determination and self-sacrifice of men from several lands. It set in motion a chain of events which affected the history of the entire world.

Despite the losses and suffering involved in that human effort, and in the epic conflict of which it was a part, we today find in those experiences reasons for hope and inspiration. They remind us particularly of the accomplishments attainable through close cooperation and friendship among free peoples striving toward a common goal. Some of my most cherished memories of that campaign are those of friendly cooperation with such distinguished military leaders of foreign nations as Field Marshal Montgomery, Admiral Ramsay, Marshal of the Royal Air Force Tedder, Marshal de Lattre de Tassigny, Marshal Juin and Marshal Leclerc. I recall my pleasant association with the outstanding Soviet soldier, Marshal Zhukov, and the victorious meeting at the Elbe of the Armies of the West and of the East.

These lessons of unity and cooperation have by no means been lost in the trying period of reconstruction since the fighting stopped. Rather, we see peoples, once bitter enemies, burying their antagonisms and joining together to meet the problems of the postwar world. If all those nations which were members of the Grand Alliance have not maintained in time of peace the spirit of that wartime union, if some of the peoples who were our comrades-in-arms have been kept apart from us, that is cause for profound regret, but not for despair. The courage, devotion and faith which brought us through the perils of war will inevitably bring us success in our unremitting search for peace, security and freedom.

- President Dwight D. Eisenhower
 
  • Like
Reactions: GoldandBlackintheSaddleAgain and 70boiler
Eisenhower prior to his appointment as Supreme Allied Commander had never been in charge of a unit in combat. He was chosen over others because he had diplomatic ability which was considered a very important and necessary quality for the position.
 
arcb102000 said:
Surely if you read any history of WW2 you know that this is true. The USA supplied the Soviet Union with supplies, arms and vehicles, sailing into Archangel and Murmansk during WW2. There was no Lend-Lease like we did with Britain. There was a straight-out gift.

Stalin was the only one sustaining a land war against Germany. Thus they were taking the brunt of the losses in 1942-43. The USAAF certainly lost a lot of folks but not in comparison.

Stalin was of the opinion that Roosevelt and Churchill were delaying the invasion and was always pressuring them to invade the Continent.

Without US aid to the Soviets, it is likely that the Eastern Front would have been very different in outcome. Moscow would likely have fallen and the Soviet regime would be in real trouble and perhaps unlikely to survive.

Soviet losses were great, but often because they shot at their own people who they felt were not fighting hard enough. Obviously, many innocent civilians were killed because of religion, ethnicity and by simply being in the middle of a war zone.
Click to expand...
I'm aware of most of that, although I am not sure all was gifted. However, to me, that hardly is a situation where " Stalin made a deal with Roosevelt: trade human lives for supplies."
 
Please read the attached link. I refer you to the following statement found there.

"As the Soviet leader Josef Stalin cynically and accurately observed, the United states adhered to a policy of fighting with American money, and American machines, and Russian men."

The author also observes that Roosevelt intended to minimize American people in battle and that the Russians would bear the brunt of the fighting.

That is trading material for lives.

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-now/great-depression-and-world-war-ii-1929-1945
 
arcb102000 said:
Please read the attached link. I refer you to the following statement found there.

"As the Soviet leader Josef Stalin cynically and accurately observed, the United states adhered to a policy of fighting with American money, and American machines, and Russian men."

The author also observes that Roosevelt intended to minimize American people in battle and that the Russians would bear the brunt of the fighting.

That is trading material for lives.

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-now/great-depression-and-world-war-ii-1929-1945
Click to expand...
That just strikes me as a silly argument. Stalin wasn't trading lives for material. The Russians were at war when Hitler chose to attack them in contravention to their non-aggression pact. The Soviets were at that point committed to war, regardless of whether the US supplied material or not. The Soviets were going to lose many lives with or without the material. It seems likely and logical to me that they in fact lost less lives by having access to a greater volume of materials and better materials than they possessed without American assistance. I simply don't understand your statement that Stalin, as reprehensible as he was on many fronts, was trading lives for materials.
Roosevelt... I certainly can see the position that he was selling/giving American materials to the Soviets in the hope of limiting future American deaths. The two sides of the discussion are not the same.
 
Ahh, the unwinnable argument. Without regard to viewpoint all participants in the war did so at great cost. Lost and damaged lives, economic loss, geographic loss. All parties suffered. Forgotten in all war discussions is the loss of innovative minds. Without such loss might cancer have been defeated and other great discoveries lost that might never come to fruition?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tjreese, Jack_Ripper and 70boiler
SIBoiler2 said:
Ahh, the unwinnable argument. Without regard to viewpoint all participants in the war did so at great cost. Lost and damaged lives, economic loss, geographic loss. All parties suffered. Forgotten in all war discussions is the loss of innovative minds. Without such loss might cancer have been defeated and other great discoveries lost that might never come to fruition?
Click to expand...

Estimated 70-85 million dead, or 3% of the global population at that time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT
Top Bottom
Back