OT: Dakich vs. Frank Kaminsky
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I am with DD on this one. Frank is crying that he was exploited and left college owing money (for rent). There are hundreds of kids out there that freak out when they get a scholly to play D1. It is as if they made it. Walk-ons that put in the same amount of work without the same benefits. The trips, connection, experience, and a degree. Everything was set up for him to succeed. If he was good enough, he could have left early. The argument is tired. College put millions into the facilities and provide constant coaching, physical training, and mentoring. The individual training attention and physical training (including diet/workout plans) are never factored in. The free gear and travel is also often ignore. Colleges also use the major sports to help fund the other sports that couldn't support themselves, allowing other kids (who are often more appreciative) to fulfill their dreams and play collegiatly for free (or atleast partially paid for). The athletes have devalued the value of an education while those that are buried in dedt would have given anything for even a chance to play for a free education. There is a lot of entitlement, but their are other avenues that pay. They could take a year after school and work a normal job while training on their own. They could also play overseas or D-league. But they don't. Why? Because of what collegiate ball offers.
Frank should've stayed in the dorms, and he wouldn't be in debt.
Frank is wrong here, as a former full ride division one athlete in the last 6 years I can tell you that the money for housing can be used on and off campus, and usually the athletic department has deals with housing close to campus for athletes. Frank's debt is his own problem but he is given Tuition, Housing, Food, and additional monetary help to live very comfortably. I will say that I agree that student athletes are exploited but don't lie about your quality of life.
I would like to also add that Dakich is wrong regarding the amount of time the student athlete works as well. No major division 1 athlete works 20 hours or less in a week, I don't care what compliance or the school says, at my peak I way either at practice or in the weight room 8 hours per day. Average I would imagine to be around 5-6 hours per day. This includes weekends. Do the math. I was not unhappy nor did I feel like I was being taken advantage of, but the drive to succeed in a competitive environment was the motivator.
I get the sentiment of revenue and how players feel that they should get a cut of the pie, but I have ZERO sympathy for players like Kaminsky. I'd gladly trade my tens of thousands in debt from tuition if he'd like.
If they want to be paid then pay them ... but then nothing is given to them. They pay tuition, pay for housing, buy their books, buy their own meals, pay for transportation to away games, buy uniforms, et al. They will pretty quickly gain an appreciation for what is being given to them.
I do not sympathize much with Frank Kaminsky on this one but........
I truly believe that players that play on teams that bring in large amounts of revenue should be compensated in other ways besides just free college.
For instance the NCAA could make IRA contributions (or some sort of pension) for players that they would not be able to take out until retirement say age 67.
1.) Would keep cash out of immature college players hands.
2.) Could be a useful teaching tool for college players about money management.
3.) Would help prepare players for the short-term and the long-term.
Side not.
If the school were to contribute $3000 (per year) to all players whose teams bring in revenue then by the time they were to retire players could easily have $100,000 plus in some form of retirement plan
I truly believe that players that play on teams that bring in large amounts of revenue should be compensated in other ways besides just free college.
For instance the NCAA could make IRA contributions (or some sort of pension) for players that they would not be able to take out until retirement say age 67.
1.) Would keep cash out of immature college players hands.
2.) Could be a useful teaching tool for college players about money management.
3.) Would help prepare players for the short-term and the long-term.
Side not.
If the school were to contribute $3000 (per year) to all players whose teams bring in revenue then by the time they were to retire players could easily have $100,000 plus in some form of retirement plan
The entire problem with this argument is that it's always basically focused on a handful of top level athletes, not the vast majority that are going to college to get a degree that they are getting for free.
Exactly right. The school uses that revenue to upgrade facilities and such, well they are supposed to, but full ride athletes are not entitled to anything. As others have pointed out, they get virtually everything paid for so the debt Frank has, is his own fault. I have no sympathy for him.
And to top it off, some of the ones complaining they need to be compensated are the ones that are going to be making millions when they get in the NBA. Cry me a river that for a couple years you have to live within your full ride scholarship means.
It's not "for free". They trade their time as athletes and performance in games for that education. The value they receive is proportionate to the quality of education they choose to receive by choice of degree programs and educational abilities.
Athletes don't need to be paid. NCAA just needs to let them use their likeness to make money. Also it will let a lot of them know how little their likeness is actually worth.
If they are doing sponsorships and what not with their likeness, I'm sure a coach would have no problem benching them if it negatively affects their performance.
If they are doing sponsorships and what not with their likeness, I'm sure a coach would have no problem benching them if it negatively affects their performance.
yes. the likeness rule is the only legit gripe. The rest of it is nonsense.
Haven't seen the details on this feud. But, I don't get why Frank the Tank would complain. He's in the league and should be able to pay off any debts he has from college fairly easy. He's living the dream that only a handful of student-athletes obtain. Now if Brian Butch, Joe Krabbenhoft, Greg Stiemsma, or (insert other Badger big white stiff here) were to complain, I could understand as they don't have an NBA contract to pay their debts.
I have a coworker who is a former football player D1 and what DD is saying is accurate. He got checks from the university for housing etc.
Part of the athletic scholarship comes in the form of grants that normal students qualify for. Part of this grant qualification requires the university to "estimate" the costs to the student so they can fund them. They would always over estimate so university would take their cut to cover the bill and the remainder would go to their bank account.
Frank picked the wrong hill to die on for this battle. Maybe he shouldn't have spent so much money on the GoPro body harness camera and used it to pay his bills.
Part of the athletic scholarship comes in the form of grants that normal students qualify for. Part of this grant qualification requires the university to "estimate" the costs to the student so they can fund them. They would always over estimate so university would take their cut to cover the bill and the remainder would go to their bank account.
Frank picked the wrong hill to die on for this battle. Maybe he shouldn't have spent so much money on the GoPro body harness camera and used it to pay his bills.
As a coworker of mine likes to say, "it's an elective position. If you don't like your job, quit. "
What's often overlooked as part of the benefits an athlete receives is the guaranteed stage by going to a university. It is free advertising and free training for a future job as far as money goes, granted you do give up your time. Frank made some comment about what if he just wanted to go to play basketball and not for school, the easy solution is then go pro overseas. Chances are quite a few of those kids and possibly Frank Kaminski would never have made it to the NBA if they just went straight overseas and that is earnings unaccounted for as far as what they are gaining by attending a college over a pro team. I don't know how you place a monetary value on the free advertising you get for your brand nor the training and learning provided to you other than the cost of tuition, books, etc. I've known plenty of division 1 athletes personally and the amount of money they get for housing and food and so on is way more than enough for these guys to live comfortably.
I forget who it was, but a former Purdue football player was on twitter the other day talking about this and one of his good points were that yes the education is free but the amount of time required of you and the traveling associated with being an athlete makes it very difficult to pick a degree that would help you down the road. His reference was to basketball and football players and I do agree with him there that they certainly do make it tough for a college athlete to obtain some of the more challenging degrees while in school. There is significant pressure to perform while playing the money making sports like football and basketball and can easily see that coaches and advisers would steer a player towards an easier degree knowing what kind of stress they will be put under.
I forget who it was, but a former Purdue football player was on twitter the other day talking about this and one of his good points were that yes the education is free but the amount of time required of you and the traveling associated with being an athlete makes it very difficult to pick a degree that would help you down the road. His reference was to basketball and football players and I do agree with him there that they certainly do make it tough for a college athlete to obtain some of the more challenging degrees while in school. There is significant pressure to perform while playing the money making sports like football and basketball and can easily see that coaches and advisers would steer a player towards an easier degree knowing what kind of stress they will be put under.
These players are worth NOTHING without the brand they represent. If Frank Kaminsky never plays at Wisconsin or another major college brand, nobody cares about him whatsoever. These players mistakenly think that they make the brand when in reality the opposite is true. I love Robbie Hummel and Caleb Swanigan as much as anyone else here but if they had chosen to play elsewhere I was still going to watch Purdue games and I wasn't going to tune in anywhere else to watch them play outside of Purdue.
The best tweet Dakich made yesterday was asking about the Hansbrough jersey for the FW Mad Ants compared to his UNC jersey. Same player but you see his value, or lack thereof, without the UNC brand he played for in college.
One further bit of evidence. Nobody watches the NBA minor league system. It's barely televised. Nobody really attends games. It makes almost no money even though the teams and rosters are more talented from top to bottom than most NCAA tournament teams. Why? Because nobody cares unless the brands are involved.
To be brutally honest, most all of these athletes get far too much already. Far more than they are worth.
The best tweet Dakich made yesterday was asking about the Hansbrough jersey for the FW Mad Ants compared to his UNC jersey. Same player but you see his value, or lack thereof, without the UNC brand he played for in college.
One further bit of evidence. Nobody watches the NBA minor league system. It's barely televised. Nobody really attends games. It makes almost no money even though the teams and rosters are more talented from top to bottom than most NCAA tournament teams. Why? Because nobody cares unless the brands are involved.
To be brutally honest, most all of these athletes get far too much already. Far more than they are worth.
My beef is North Carolina, Ole Roy gets the title and $900,000 or so bonus money. The kids get hats and shirts. Roy can leave if he wants to tomorrow with no repercussions. The kids are not allowed to transfer.
This sounds about like any other school that would win the national title to me. My only beef with UNC is that the academic scandal they haven't been punished for.
As for coaches making so much money, how is that any different than the business world? Go check out the CEO salaries at various companies. The people in charge of anything that is worth a bunch of money are going to make a bunch of money.
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That was my biggest disagreement with DD. Working out, watching film, and solo time in the gym would far exceed the twenty hours. With that being said, there are students that work just as many hours to help pay for school and still graduate with debt. Not to mention, they get tudors to help with their studies. Frank is barking up the wrong tree. Those that hate DD were glad to see them go at it, but DD clearly won the argument. This was a really enjoyable thread to read. Kudos to the OP!
First, I would like to thank the actual D1 athletes that shared their personal perspectives. I was not a D1 athlete so it is good to hear from those who have had that life experience.
My personal view is that Dakich is right for the most part. Does the NCAA use top level student athletes to make money? Sure. But I also feel D1 full scholarship athletes get a lot in return, including a lot of intangible things that money can't buy. Things like national exposure. Do you think Frank would be where he is today if he had gone to places like Wofford or Hofstra or even Vermont? He was a 3 star recruit I believe that didn't play significant minutes until he was a junior, so Wisconsin got no real return on Frank for his first two years but he continued to get an education and the chance to improve under a good coach at a good university. Besides exposure, they get all types of connections that can help them after their college days or playing days are over. Guys like Frank didn't live poorly during his 4 years on campus. Unless you are a Jordan or James, you don't get to start at the top. Frank, like most of the rest of us, had to earn his way and will have to continue to do so. That is the way the real world works. Hard for me to feel sorry for him.
My personal view is that Dakich is right for the most part. Does the NCAA use top level student athletes to make money? Sure. But I also feel D1 full scholarship athletes get a lot in return, including a lot of intangible things that money can't buy. Things like national exposure. Do you think Frank would be where he is today if he had gone to places like Wofford or Hofstra or even Vermont? He was a 3 star recruit I believe that didn't play significant minutes until he was a junior, so Wisconsin got no real return on Frank for his first two years but he continued to get an education and the chance to improve under a good coach at a good university. Besides exposure, they get all types of connections that can help them after their college days or playing days are over. Guys like Frank didn't live poorly during his 4 years on campus. Unless you are a Jordan or James, you don't get to start at the top. Frank, like most of the rest of us, had to earn his way and will have to continue to do so. That is the way the real world works. Hard for me to feel sorry for him.
A very good point.
I watched a video of a couple of Purdue players being measured for nice suits, I read an article on how many pairs of shoes they receive, etc. Clothes, shoes, etc for these athletes are very expensive because the athletes can not wear "off the rack" and this is on top of full scholarships, etc. It would be very interesting to know how much a basketball player at a Big Ten school actually gets in monetary value for all that he receives.
For a player to train on their own with private quarterback coaches, to have the diaticians, physical therapists, tutors, access to top of the line facilities, training, and on hand medical staff the value would eclipse a millions dollars over four years easy. Not to mention the exposure and being seen on national television and travel. The student athletes live very well compared to the normal student paying for their education. The problem is when athletes compare themselves to professionals and their lifestyles. It doesn't work that way. There are plenty of other options, but none even come close to comparing to the value of an education. The overwhelming majority of collegiate athletes go on to use their degree to earn a living outside of sports. Paying players is an awful idea and it would make college athletes lose their amateur status, which would cause a ton of issues for the NCAA. If they want paid, that is their right to want to get paid for their services. But it absolutely should not come from the NCAA outside of the stipends they get now.
Now the transfer restrictions have always bugged me, I've always thought if the coach leaves, the players should be free to leave with out having to sit out. As much as we all love Purdue, the truth is a lot of athletes commit to a university for the coach as much as anything. Being a former college athlete who went through three coaching changes, the coach can make your experience or ruin it.
I did not mesh with the third coach and combined with constant injury issues. I hung it up, walked away from my scholarship and transferred to Purdue. I just could not be successful as an athlete or student under that coach and I knew it.
I don't think suits are part of their deal. Travel windsuits, yes. They have to pay for dress clothes. Anything the athletes wear has to be branded by Purdue or Nike (the outfitter). Exceptions to the rule may be golf or baseball, etc. Like khaki pants for a golfer.
It is tough because you need a "one size fits all" rule from the NCAA and it is not the same. Florida State could probably kick players something like $5,000 for spending money which is not a lot, but could help kids out. Florida Gulf Coast could not afford that same grant money. I am not saying pay the players, but I have liked the idea of giving a little more if possible, especially for the revenue some players bring to some schools.
In the business world the employees are also paid, stock options or 401K, may have incentive bonuses, are given vacations. UNC is a public institution. It is apples to oranges to compare the two. Also wouldn't the CEO be the AD? Isn't it odd that the CEO would make less than the head of the sales department?
And athletes are given scholarships, stipends, food/nutrition, facilities, training, coaching, gear, travel, etc.
And I would consider each program within an athletic department it's own entity and therefore each coach the CEO of that entity. That's not to say the coach doesn't have to answer to anyone but so does a CEO. The coach/CEO generally control the day-to-day activities though and get judged on their results. That AD isn't going to step in demand a certain player start or that the coach MUST try zone defense.
I see the food and nutrition aspect and athletes do get better food than the average kid in dorms Travel though is to play for that school; it is not like a paid vacation. Now if you are a Michigan football player going to Rome for Spring ball, that is different or Purdue playing in Spain. Not everyone gets to go on those trips.
Well I'll disagree. I would bet that the student athletes very much enjoy going to play in November tournaments in Maui, Cancun, or some other such destination. I also would venture a guess nobody on Purdue's team felt burdened by going to play at Madison Square Garden at the expense of the school this season. Just because they play a game doesn't mean there is no value and often they do things at some of these destinations rather than just play games. I think I saw a few weeks back on twitter that our baseball team stopped by to see the LinkedIn operations while they were out on a road trip in California on spring break. It is not a paid vacation but it is a great opportunity that has value (aka...a benefit).
This is not even really my point though. The stuff they do get far exceeds their value in most every case. They are a part of what generates the revenue but they are not the reason for it. That's like saying if an assembly line that makes a luxury automobile went on strike that that company would lose the ability to manufacture that automobile. They are providing a service that is replaceable. If they aren't agreeable to filling that role, others generally will. The automobile still gets made. The sport still gets played. The money still rolls in. Just go ahead and take your favorite Purdue athlete and ask yourself if you'd still be a Purdue fan if they had played elsewhere and you'll tell yourself how replaceable these guys are. Did anyone become a Purdue fan just because Robbie Hummel played here? Did we lose a bunch of fans when Gary Harris chose Michigan State?
i agree with TCs larger point of brand value > individual value
I think back to the baseball strike and replacement players. the fact they even considered that shows how strong team loyalty can be (albeit greedy owners also). I would guess college team loyalty to be many times stronger than the typical pros
I think back to the baseball strike and replacement players. the fact they even considered that shows how strong team loyalty can be (albeit greedy owners also). I would guess college team loyalty to be many times stronger than the typical pros
I bet nobody has ever noticed this so I'm going to have to be the one to point it out.
Has anyone ever noticed both Dan Dakich AND Frank kaminsky like attention? I know. I didn't believe it at first.
I've been saying this for years... My only difference is I'd rather see retirement payout at 40 or 50 max. many of these guys go back to poor areas and don't have great jobs and many are so broken down, they are disabled by 40s. it sickens me to see the coaches and ADs making millions. I hear all the great things the schools do for them but it's not enough long term...
Rant:
Solution seems to be. Let them choose college or nba. Right out of high school..Do away with the one and done.
If you feel you're being robbed, don't do it, don't go to college.
Take your arse where the whining is acceptable, NBA
A huge percentage of people that watch you play. Would gladly accept the college education.Room and board, tutors, nutritionist, Rockstar status come on. Cry Me a River
Solution seems to be. Let them choose college or nba. Right out of high school..Do away with the one and done.
If you feel you're being robbed, don't do it, don't go to college.
Take your arse where the whining is acceptable, NBA
A huge percentage of people that watch you play. Would gladly accept the college education.Room and board, tutors, nutritionist, Rockstar status come on. Cry Me a River
At what point do they accept some responsibility for how their life turned out instead of blaming others? If they move to a bad area after college, is that the athletic director's fault? If they don't find/keep a good job, is that on the coach?
TC you do realize that many of the degrees these athletes get don't prepare them for any type of meaningful career. I once asked three BSU profs, one Econ, one humanities and one poli sci, what one would do with a GS degree. None of them could think of a single thing. So while everyone wants to say they get a free education my answer would be in what? They aren't all Matt Keifer or Matt Waddell or even Robert Smith of OSU.
Many of these kids "go home" which is a bad area / hood / inner city. Not moving there. Just going home with nothing to show for 2-4 years of college. You and I take for granted going to school to learn / get a degree. Many of these kids only have hoops / sports and they are full time athletes in college. The schools / coaches are making millions on the backs of inner city youth. Have some sympathy / empathy please... Maybe some day a couple hundred years from now, inner city life will change but it hasn't yet...
