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woggy718

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Before some info got leaked out about the "secret" scrimmage today. I think the rules around these things are just plain dumb.

From Jeff Goodman: Purdue beat Dayton by about 10 points in today’s scrimmage. Vince Edwards and Caleb Swanigan (double-double) looked good for Boilermakers.
 
Before some info got leaked out about the "secret" scrimmage today. I think the rules around these things are just plain dumb.

From Jeff Goodman: Purdue beat Dayton by about 10 points in today’s scrimmage. Vince Edwards and Caleb Swanigan (double-double) looked good for Boilermakers.
CSwanigan is going to be a beast for the Boilers. IF the pg situation works out, and I hate to write this, the Boilees are going to be a top 15 team this year. Plus, I think CS plays two years for you guys. damn..
 
IF the pg situation works out, and I hate to write this, the Boilees are going to be a top 15 team this year.

Thanks for the classy, respectful, post...this is what I can't figure out about you guys from #Bentley, er, Peegs...You're all "Purdue doesn't have elite point guard play"...."Purdue will suck without an elite point guard" ...What Purdue needs serviceable point guard play...they know the zone and press are coming...you guys at #Bentleys, sorry...Peegs, have had an "elite" point guard for four years and have, what again ? a S16, no show, and a 1 and out..tell SNU I said "hi"...
 
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Before some info got leaked out about the "secret" scrimmage today. I think the rules around these things are just plain dumb.

From Jeff Goodman: Purdue beat Dayton by about 10 points in today’s scrimmage. Vince Edwards and Caleb Swanigan (double-double) looked good for Boilermakers.
Travis Miller is saying that he saw reports from the "twitter-sphere" that Hammons didn't play. (Take it with a grain of salt, considering his source.) No reason was given, but since it was only a secret scrimmage, I don't read much into it.

In general, I don't draw many conclusions from this secret scrimmage, but I've heard enough over the past three weekends to believe that Biggie will be tough on the boards and that Vince will be more aggressive this season.
 
Thanks for the classy, respectful, post...this is what I can't figure out about you guys from #Bentley, er, Peegs...You're all "Purdue doesn't have elite point guard play"...."Purdue will suck without an elite point guard" ...What Purdue needs serviceable point guard play...they know the zone and press are coming...you guys at #Bentleys, sorry...Peegs, have had an "elite" point guard for four years and have, what again ? a S16, no show, and a 1 and out..tell SNU I said "hi"...

All elite player positions are important. However, "IF" two teams are both very good and it comes down to a last second shot, the PG usually already has the ball and is somewhat protected by the refs. However, there may be 35+ minutes where that key position is in another position. "Good" teams can pass the ball generally and more often than not have versatile players. As others have mentioned that decreases the importance of an elite PG. There is a reason why college teams are bigger than high school teams and a reason why pro teams are bigger yet. A great, scoring PG is valuable like a great scoring whatever position, but in the last couple of minutes it could be a difference. IF a team is not very good, an elite PG will not carry them, nor will any other position. There must be some capable help
 
All elite player positions are important. However, "IF" two teams are both very good and it comes down to a last second shot, the PG usually already has the ball and is somewhat protected by the refs. However, there may be 35+ minutes where that key position is in another position. "Good" teams can pass the ball generally and more often than not have versatile players. As others have mentioned that decreases the importance of an elite PG. There is a reason why college teams are bigger than high school teams and a reason why pro teams are bigger yet. A great, scoring PG is valuable like a great scoring whatever position, but in the last couple of minutes it could be a difference. IF a team is not very good, an elite PG will not carry them, nor will any other position. There must be some capable help
I agree, but I also think that a talented wing can play that role and if he is a good ball handler, it isn't too tough to get him the ball to initiate the offense. I think that Vince Edwards may be emerging as a player who can be the goto guy at crunch time. He's not perfect for that role, but surround him with AJ, Swanigan, and a couple of shooters and he'll be tough to stop, IMO.
 
CSwanigan is going to be a beast for the Boilers. IF the pg situation works out, and I hate to write this, the Boilees are going to be a top 15 team this year. Plus, I think CS plays two years for you guys. damn..

Don't count on it.......
 
I agree, but I also think that a talented wing can play that role and if he is a good ball handler, it isn't too tough to get him the ball to initiate the offense. I think that Vince Edwards may be emerging as a player who can be the goto guy at crunch time. He's not perfect for that role, but surround him with AJ, Swanigan, and a couple of shooters and he'll be tough to stop, IMO.
I'm not worried at this time. My point was that a PG (the best ball handler) who is elite (good/great scorer) has that edge for a last second shot. Good teams are versatile and have other players that can pick it up, but the PG's are the best ballhandlers with the best chance of making a plays in the final seconds. Others are usually not as good of ball handlers as the clock is winding down and many times receive a pass to get going...that is all. I had a discussion on twitter 1-2 months ago with
Bobby R.
@uklefty22
Writer for Barstool, KSR and Today'sU. New York Giants, Knicks, Orioles and Kentucky with a touch of bourbon and Natty Light. Reality TV lover.

where he just thinks Purdue will not be any good without an elite PG...
 
I'm not worried at this time. My point was that a PG (the best ball handler) who is elite (good/great scorer) has that edge for a last second shot. Good teams are versatile and have other players that can pick it up, but the PG's are the best ballhandlers with the best chance of making a plays in the final seconds. Others are usually not as good of ball handlers as the clock is winding down and many times receive a pass to get going...that is all. I had a discussion on twitter 1-2 months ago with
Bobby R.
@uklefty22
Writer for Barstool, KSR and Today'sU. New York Giants, Knicks, Orioles and Kentucky with a touch of bourbon and Natty Light. Reality TV lover.

where he just thinks Purdue will not be any good without an elite PG...

I think that depends on your definition of good. Can they compete for a B1G title and deep tourney run without an elite PG? I think so. I think where it probably hurts most is late tourney games where you're playing teams that have talent to equal, or even better our own at most positions.

If this is a UK guy no doubt his definition of 'good' is also probably skewed a bit.
 
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I'm not worried at this time. My point was that a PG (the best ball handler) who is elite (good/great scorer) has that edge for a last second shot. Good teams are versatile and have other players that can pick it up, but the PG's are the best ballhandlers with the best chance of making a plays in the final seconds. Others are usually not as good of ball handlers as the clock is winding down and many times receive a pass to get going...that is all. I had a discussion on twitter 1-2 months ago with
Bobby R.
@uklefty22
Writer for Barstool, KSR and Today'sU. New York Giants, Knicks, Orioles and Kentucky with a touch of bourbon and Natty Light. Reality TV lover.

where he just thinks Purdue will not be any good without an elite PG...
So an elite point guard gives you the end of game edge. IU thinks they have that elite point guard. No question he likes to take the shot. The answer is to pound them into submission the other 39 minutes of the game so the last second shot means nada.
 
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So an elite point guard gives you the end of game edge. IU thinks they have that elite point guard. No question he likes to take the shot. The answer is to pound them into submission the other 39 minutes of the game so the last second shot means nada.
The example that I would give is OSU. D'Angello Russell was great last season in late game situations, but so was Evan Turner in 2010 from the 3 or 4 position. Elite talent is the key, IMO. I don't think that Edwards is on the same level that Turner was, but he has a similar skill set.
 
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I think that depends on your definition of good. Can they compete for a B1G title and deep tourney run without an elite PG? I think so. I think where it probably hurts most is late tourney games where you're playing teams that have talent to equal, or even better our own at most positions.

If this is a UK guy no doubt his definition of 'good' is also probably skewed a bit.
I agree
 
So an elite point guard gives you the end of game edge. IU thinks they have that elite point guard. No question he likes to take the shot. The answer is to pound them into submission the other 39 minutes of the game so the last second shot means nada.
pretty much what I said...I agree... :)
 
The example that I would give is OSU. D'Angello Russell was great last season in late game situations, but so was Evan Turner in 2010 from the 3 or 4 position. Elite talent is the key, IMO. I don't think that Edwards is on the same level that Turner was, but he has a similar skill set.

you don't?

I can definitely foresee Vince being as good with the ball as Evan Turner was at OSU, just as long as he stays aggressive.
 
I think that depends on your definition of good. Can they compete for a B1G title and deep tourney run without an elite PG? I think so. I think where it probably hurts most is late tourney games where you're playing teams that have talent to equal, or even better our own at most positions.

If this is a UK guy no doubt his definition of 'good' is also probably skewed a bit.

Ironically, I think UK's best PG (Tyler Ulis) didn't play enough in crucial times, and that was a big part of the reason UK came up short.

Also, I agree that although it can be a deciding factor late in games and especially at tourney time....it doesn't necessarily need to be the PG. Somebody else on the wing that gets the ball enough could make the difference.

JMHO
 
you don't?

I can definitely foresee Vince being as good with the ball as Evan Turner was at OSU, just as long as he stays aggressive.
All I am saying is that Turner won national player of the year awards in 2010 and I don't think it's fair to use Turner as an example without qualifying that I'm not suggesting that Edwards will put up Turner-like numbers.
 
ET plays guard and forward in the NBA, including some time at PG. Vince isn't at his level, but he could approach it and potentially get there. If Vince could develop that wicked crossover ET used constantly that last year he played at OSU, that'd be a good start :).
 
I agree, but I also think that a talented wing can play that role and if he is a good ball handler, it isn't too tough to get him the ball to initiate the offense. I think that Vince Edwards may be emerging as a player who can be the goto guy at crunch time. He's not perfect for that role, but surround him with AJ, Swanigan, and a couple of shooters and he'll be tough to stop, IMO.

I agree. Your "go to" player doesn't necessarily have to shoot the last shot.
 
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I agree. Your "go to" player doesn't necessarily have to shoot the last shot.
I agree with you (he could be a decoy), but not sure that is what he was saying. I think he is saying an elite player other than a PG elite could still be the difference "IF" you can get the ball to him...

BoilerDaddy said:
I agree, but I also think that a talented wing can play that role and if he is a good ball handler, it isn't too tough to get him the ball to initiate the offense. I think that Vince Edwards may be emerging as a player who can be the goto guy at crunch time. He's not perfect for that role, but surround him with AJ, Swanigan, and a couple of shooters and he'll be tough to stop, IMO.
 
I agree with you (he could be a decoy), but not sure that is what he was saying. I think he is saying an elite player other than a PG elite could still be the difference "IF" you can get the ball to him...

BoilerDaddy said:
I agree, but I also think that a talented wing can play that role and if he is a good ball handler, it isn't too tough to get him the ball to initiate the offense. I think that Vince Edwards may be emerging as a player who can be the goto guy at crunch time. He's not perfect for that role, but surround him with AJ, Swanigan, and a couple of shooters and he'll be tough to stop, IMO.
That's right. As an example, there is no player in NBA history that I would rather have with the ball in his hands with seconds to go than Michael Jordan, a two guard rather than a point guard.

But, I also agree with Chuch. A factor that makes Edwards a great option is that he can pass, as well as score. Back to the Jordan example, I saw Jordan break down the defense and hit a player like Steve Kerr for a last second 3 more than once. Jordan wasn't a decoy in that case; he was a playmaker.
 
That's right. As an example, there is no player in NBA history that I would rather have with the ball in his hands with seconds to go than Michael Jordan, a two guard rather than a point guard.

But, I also agree with Chuch. A factor that makes Edwards a great option is that he can pass, as well as score. Back to the Jordan example, I saw Jordan break down the defense and hit a player like Steve Kerr for a last second 3 more than once. Jordan wasn't a decoy in that case; he was a playmaker.
yeah, Mike could occupy 2 to 3 people...like Bird in that position as well. Actually, Vince did exactly that to win his sectional his senior year and I think the guy may have "banked" it from the baseline. ;) Kerr was deadly, not a bad choice... :)
http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...comes-first-purdue-freshman-edwards/12648385/
LAFAYETTE — Everyone knew Vince Edwardswould take the final shot.

Middletown High School trailed Greater Miami Conference rival Wilmington by two points with 12 seconds to play in an Ohio High School Athletic Association Division 1 district championship game.

The Middies presumably would put their season in the hands of Edwards, their Purdue-bound senior. He brought the ball up the floor, but when Wilmington swarmed him, Edwards turned and whipped the heroic opportunity across the court.

"For me, my job was to put the ball in his hands and trust him to make the shot," Edwards said of longtime friend and teammate Cal Shouse. "I told myself he was definitely going to be open.

"I saw four different-colored jerseys, turned around, threw him the ball, and he hit the shot."

Shouse's banked-in 3-pointer with no time on the clock lifted Middletown to a 54-53 victory. Edwards' eighth assist of the night complemented his 20 points and five rebounds.
 
That's right. As an example, there is no player in NBA history that I would rather have with the ball in his hands with seconds to go than Michael Jordan, a two guard rather than a point guard.

But, I also agree with Chuch. A factor that makes Edwards a great option is that he can pass, as well as score. Back to the Jordan example, I saw Jordan break down the defense and hit a player like Steve Kerr for a last second 3 more than once. Jordan wasn't a decoy in that case; he was a playmaker.

My point was, I want the guy with the best decision making and the ability to execute on that decision, with the ball in his hands at the end of the game. For MJ, that decision usually was a shot 9 times out of 10. But for other closers (Lebron, Magic) many times a pass to an open teammate was the best decision. Basically, I trust Vince to make the right call, and get the job done.
 
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I'm not worried at this time. My point was that a PG (the best ball handler) who is elite (good/great scorer) has that edge for a last second shot. Good teams are versatile and have other players that can pick it up, but the PG's are the best ballhandlers with the best chance of making a plays in the final seconds. Others are usually not as good of ball handlers as the clock is winding down and many times receive a pass to get going...that is all. I had a discussion on twitter 1-2 months ago with
Bobby R.
@uklefty22
Writer for Barstool, KSR and Today'sU. New York Giants, Knicks, Orioles and Kentucky with a touch of bourbon and Natty Light. Reality TV lover.

where he just thinks Purdue will not be any good without an elite PG...

Is that why Lebron has the ball in his hands in close games...bc he is the best ball handler on their team? It's about having an ability to create your own shot at that point. Purdue has that in Davis and he proved it in two games last year.
 
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My point was, I want the guy with the best decision making and the ability to execute on that decision, with the ball in his hands at the end of the game. For MJ, that decision usually was a shot 9 times out of 10. But for other closers (Lebron, Magic) many times a pass to an open teammate was the best decision. Basically, I trust Vince to make the right call, and get the job done.
we teach to hit the open man and if that person is capable in that position ti is a good play. We don't however want an open big man running the court to necessarily get the ball at mid court and fumble it trying to do something he may not be able. Same with passing the ball to an open man that can't shoot as the clock is winding down. I agree that IF the person open is capable, give him the ball. We must remember though there is a reason WHY that man is open. I agree with your sentiment with my qualifications. I would not want Vince driving into the lane and rather than have a contested shot, pass it to someone out in the perimeter that was not a good shooter and now faced with that task. Most pros can make a basket, many high school and some college can't outside their allowed shot area. As I watched the player bank it in after Vince's pass, I knew it was lucky and sometimes luck wins. Anyone that has followed anything I've written on Vince back to his high school days know I consider him a very versatile player who is a better passer than many his size. More often than not Vince will make good decisions, but being a little more selfish than last year may serve him well this year.

Bottom line, hit the man with the best chance of making the basket and that is a combination of "WHO" and where on the court. I agree with you, but added a few qualifiers as well. when Davis drove in the lane to beat IU last year. That was a call Matt made knowing he was going to get close to the rim and if fouled...the shooter Purdue may want at that time of the game. Matt also knew he would get a shot off...a decent chance to make the shot and a low risk of a turnover with that call

One thing every coach wants in the closing seconds is to get a good shot off, not a picked off pass or a turnover. Rarely is a "good" shot allowed, but any shot is better than no shot and that is why an elite PG has a little advantage in the closing seconds over an elite player in a different position, but having an "elite" player is always nice and advantage to make the play, create for others capable and if the conditions are right to even be a decoy, but all that is due to the elite player. I think the rule emphasis also plays more to the PG, the better dribbler and ball handler than other positions and so a slight edge to the pg due to rule emphasis.

Purdue can be very good without an elite PG, if the PG is solid in all phases and on the same page. I hope Purdue has that this year and think they could. :)
 
Is that why Levrin has the ball in his hands in close games...bc he is the best ball handler on their team? It's about having an ability to create your own shot at that point. Pursue has that in Davis and he proved it in two games last year.

not sure what you are saying, nor know who Levrin is. I don't think only a ball handler is needed? Read my recent post and see if I answer your question? I addressed your comment on Davis and IU and in that situation is what not about creating a shot as knowing it would be as it happened. the other Davis win was an open three that the other team dared him to shoot..playing the odds and he hit it. I don't disagree with needing an elite player or even a player that is not elite, but can create a shot ONCE he gets the ball. My point is, that PG's in general (like cornerbacks in football) are usually really solid athletes that can create shots. Being undersized typically they are used to creating more shots than many positions and I think the rule emphasis helps them. I do not think I can ever make a statement that addresses all scenarios, but hopefully explained myself better in my other recent post. :)
 
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not sure what you are saying, nor know who Levrin is. I don't think only a ball handler is needed? Read my recent post and see if I answer your question? I addressed your comment on Davis and IU and in that situation is what not about creating a shot as knowing it would be as it happened. the other Davis win was an open three that the other team dared him to shoot..playing the odds and he hit it. I don't disagree with needing an elite player or even a player that is not elite, but can create a shot ONCE he gets the ball. My point is, that PG's in general (like cornerbacks in football) are usually really solid athletes that can create shots. Being undersized typically they are used to creating more shots than many positions and I think the rule emphasis helps them. I do not think I can ever make a statement that addresses all scenarios, but hopefully explained myself better in my other recent post. :)

Corrected in my post: Should have read Lebron (was typing on my phone).

I just don't think that is an appropriate blanket statement. Not all good PG's are good at creating their own shot. As good as John Stockton was, I don't think he would be considered a great player at creating his own shot. MJ was the epitome of that and he was definitely not a PG.

It has more to do with the makeup of your team rather than individual skill. Purdue doesn't need a PG like that because of the type of offense that it runs (motion) which creates open shots for everyone through the movement of the off ball handlers and the ball. A system like IU's requires a pg like Ferrell to create his own shot because that's their system. I'll be highly interested in seeing what Crean's system looks like next season as he doesn't appear to have that type of player in his system next season. Going back through IU's recruiting, Crean hasn't recruited a PG to replace Ferrel, so I'm not sure what his plan is. He appears to have a ton of lengthy shooters but his system almost REQUIRES a pg like Ferrell to make things happen. IF he doesn't get that, I wonder how IU's offense will fare.
 
Corrected in my post: Should have read Lebron (was typing on my phone).

I just don't think that is an appropriate blanket statement. Not all good PG's are good at creating their own shot. As good as John Stockton was, I don't think he would be considered a great player at creating his own shot. MJ was the epitome of that and he was definitely not a PG.

It has more to do with the makeup of your team rather than individual skill. Purdue doesn't need a PG like that because of the type of offense that it runs (motion) which creates open shots for everyone through the movement of the off ball handlers and the ball. A system like IU's requires a pg like Ferrell to create his own shot because that's their system. I'll be highly interested in seeing what Crean's system looks like next season as he doesn't appear to have that type of player in his system next season. Going back through IU's recruiting, Crean hasn't recruited a PG to replace Ferrel, so I'm not sure what his plan is. He appears to have a ton of lengthy shooters but his system almost REQUIRES a pg like Ferrell to make things happen. IF he doesn't get that, I wonder how IU's offense will fare.
fully understand the phone. every team composition provides different things, My point is that a PG day in day out has some advantages over other positions in a general sense with exceptions always being the case. Kinda like the QB that can pass and run when it is 3rd and 7 on the 7 yard line with one more play.

Crean wants to run and so I expect him to always recruit well 1-3 and not so much on the 4 and 5 spot. No doubt losing Yogi will leave a huge hole...a huge hole for IU unless filled wiht something we all are not seeing at this time.
 
we teach to hit the open man and if that person is capable in that position ti is a good play. We don't however want an open big man running the court to necessarily get the ball at mid court and fumble it trying to do something he may not be able. Same with passing the ball to an open man that can't shoot as the clock is winding down. I agree that IF the person open is capable, give him the ball. We must remember though there is a reason WHY that man is open. I agree with your sentiment with my qualifications. I would not want Vince driving into the lane and rather than have a contested shot, pass it to someone out in the perimeter that was not a good shooter and now faced with that task. Most pros can make a basket, many high school and some college can't outside their allowed shot area. As I watched the player bank it in after Vince's pass, I knew it was lucky and sometimes luck wins. Anyone that has followed anything I've written on Vince back to his high school days know I consider him a very versatile player who is a better passer than many his size. More often than not Vince will make good decisions, but being a little more selfish than last year may serve him well this year.

Bottom line, hit the man with the best chance of making the basket and that is a combination of "WHO" and where on the court. I agree with you, but added a few qualifiers as well. when Davis drove in the lane to beat IU last year. That was a call Matt made knowing he was going to get close to the rim and if fouled...the shooter Purdue may want at that time of the game. Matt also knew he would get a shot off...a decent chance to make the shot and a low risk of a turnover with that call

One thing every coach wants in the closing seconds is to get a good shot off, not a picked off pass or a turnover. Rarely is a "good" shot allowed, but any shot is better than no shot and that is why an elite PG has a little advantage in the closing seconds over an elite player in a different position, but having an "elite" player is always nice and advantage to make the play, create for others capable and if the conditions are right to even be a decoy, but all that is due to the elite player. I think the rule emphasis also plays more to the PG, the better dribbler and ball handler than other positions and so a slight edge to the pg due to rule emphasis.

Purdue can be very good without an elite PG, if the PG is solid in all phases and on the same page. I hope Purdue has that this year and think they could. :)

I think we're on the same page. Everything you described falls under "decision making" which was my primary point.
 
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