ND series

[FirstDownB]

I have some unconventional thoughts on the Purdue-Notre Dame football series going forward and was curious to hear others' perspectives.

I grew up in northern Indiana and rooted for ND as a child and went to several games, but once I stepped on campus in WL my heart was turned to gold and black. However, many of my friends and classmates remained fans of the leprechaun. As a student the rivalry forced you to choose sides.. either you love Purdue and hate ND or vice versa. This created a lot of school pride for many when we were winning or at least competitive. You know, "F the Irish".. that sort of thing. But, that mindset also drove a wedge between Purdue and the casual ND fan. In my opinion that is one reason why many people in the state have no internal conflict with rooting for both ND and IU. They never meet on the field. You don't HAVE TO choose one side or the other. There is no animosity.

Now, granted while we are winning 2 or 3 games a year our attendance is going to suck no matter what. But what about if/when we are back to winning 6 or 7 games? I think one of the things that drove out Danny Hope was that he sort of became Notre Dame's (and Wisconsin's) bitch. After the Tiller years Purdue fans had started standing up to ND fans, writing checks with our mouths only to find there was nothing in the bank to back it up. This hurt a lot of pride in the fan base and some of the big time donors especially. I wonder if Hope would have ever been fired if ND was not on the schedule and we were simply dealing with the W/L record and not the wounded egos.

I don't think you are ever going to pry the unaffiliated masses in the state of Indiana away from Notre Dame. Just IMO I just don't see that happening. And what the Tiller years showed us is that there were just enough Purdue fans in the state to fill up Ross-Ade if all the stars aligned (good team, fun to watch, attractive schedule, etc.). I think that will be even more of a challenge next time we have a good team since all of our games are now televised in HD.

For all the good that comes with having ND on the schedule regularly, there seems to be an equal amount of downside. It brings a bump in attendance (although many are opposing fans), provides some good exposure (although not much positive when you are regularly losing), and can energize the fan base (but also drive potential casual fans away from Purdue and drive unrealistic expectations). Unlike the rivalry with IU, I'm not convinced there is any intrinsic or necessary about a ND/Purdue rivalry.

In summary, I think having ND as a rival is a good idea on the surface, and in the past the positives outweighed the negatives. But perhaps the time has passed. Maybe some time before the series resumes in 2020 we will will be competitive again and actually be able to assess this better.

 

[indianphil]

Series resumes in 2020? If we look to have anything, ND will find an excuse to cancel the game. I personally believe that the BIG is better off without them. We are at nine conference games and at some point probably 10 so we and other BIG teams dont have problems filling their schedules.

As for St. Arrogance...the best to them in the ACC because they will have to choose a conference sometime IMHKO.

 

[RegionWarrior101]

I have some unconventional thoughts on the Purdue-Notre Dame football series going forward and was curious to hear others' perspectives.

I grew up in northern Indiana and rooted for ND as a child and went to several games, but once I stepped on campus in WL my heart was turned to gold and black. However, many of my friends and classmates remained fans of the leprechaun. As a student the rivalry forced you to choose sides.. either you love Purdue and hate ND or vice versa. This created a lot of school pride for many when we were winning or at least competitive. You know, "F the Irish".. that sort of thing. But, that mindset also drove a wedge between Purdue and the casual ND fan. In my opinion that is one reason why many people in the state have no internal conflict with rooting for both ND and IU. They never meet on the field. You don't HAVE TO choose one side or the other. There is no animosity.

Now, granted while we are winning 2 or 3 games a year our attendance is going to suck no matter what. But what about if/when we are back to winning 6 or 7 games? I think one of the things that drove out Danny Hope was that he sort of became Notre Dame's (and Wisconsin's) bitch. After the Tiller years Purdue fans had started standing up to ND fans, writing checks with our mouths only to find there was nothing in the bank to back it up. This hurt a lot of pride in the fan base and some of the big time donors especially. I wonder if Hope would have ever been fired if ND was not on the schedule and we were simply dealing with the W/L record and not the wounded egos.

I don't think you are ever going to pry the unaffiliated masses in the state of Indiana away from Notre Dame. Just IMO I just don't see that happening. And what the Tiller years showed us is that there were just enough Purdue fans in the state to fill up Ross-Ade if all the stars aligned (good team, fun to watch, attractive schedule, etc.). I think that will be even more of a challenge next time we have a good team since all of our games are now televised in HD.

For all the good that comes with having ND on the schedule regularly, there seems to be an equal amount of downside. It brings a bump in attendance (although many are opposing fans), provides some good exposure (although not much positive when you are regularly losing), and can energize the fan base (but also drive potential casual fans away from Purdue and drive unrealistic expectations). Unlike the rivalry with IU, I'm not convinced there is any intrinsic or necessary about a ND/Purdue rivalry.

In summary, I think having ND as a rival is a good idea on the surface, and in the past the positives outweighed the negatives. But perhaps the time has passed. Maybe some time before the series resumes in 2020 we will will be competitive again and actually be able to assess this better.

It is not up to us; I think ND dropped us and Michigan and Michigan State to play more National games, specifically in the Southeast to extend their recruiting footprint and give them credibility.

 

[FirstDownB]

It is not up to us; I think ND dropped us and Michigan and Michigan State to play more National games, specifically in the Southeast to extend their recruiting footprint and give them credibility.

Where did I state it was Purdue's decision? I am questioning/pondering whether the break is necessarily a bad thing for Purdue and whether it is a good idea to try to maintain this rivalry into the future. Not sure how set in stone the 2020-2026 (sans 2022-2023) stretch of games is, but Purdue can certainly make a decision not to continue beyond that.

 

[RegionWarrior101]

Where did I state it was Purdue's decision? I am questioning/pondering whether the break is necessarily a bad thing for Purdue and whether it is a good idea to try to maintain this rivalry into the future. Not sure how set in stone the 2020-2026 (sans 2022-2023) stretch of games is, but Purdue can certainly make a decision not to continue beyond that.

Oh I thought you were suggesting there was a benefit to have them on the schedule and that we didn't want to play them anymore. And there were a lot of pros- you could photograph our stadium and it would look full for photographs/posters. Local businesses could make some money. It might be a night game and provide for a longer tailgate. Now we still stink so if we are going to go 2-10, we may as well with a nice gate.

 

[TC4THREE]

I would like for the entire Big Ten to refuse to play them in football. Make them play all their road games outside of the Midwest. They recruit nationally anyway so don't make it any easier for them to recruit the Midwest by giving them away games in Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, etc.

The unfortunate part is, you will never get all the Big Ten teams to agree to it. If we were to tell ND to go pound sand, IU would then schedule them. It would need to be something that is unilaterally agreed upon in order to work and I think they already have series scheduled against us, MSU, and Ohio State in the next ten years. Maybe Michigan too.

One more note, I think ND's home schedule has become much less attractive with all the ACC opponents. Maybe that's just because they haven't had FSU or Clemson at home yet but with teams like Georgia Tech and Wake Forest instead of more local teams like Michigan State and Purdue the ticket market up here wasn't nearly as crazy as it was in the past. They still sell out but when they were to host a Big Ten team I could never find tickets for face value. Aside from opener against Texas, I saw tickets available asking for face (which means you can get them for even less than that) for every game. Even USC.

 

[FirstDownB]

Oh I thought you were suggesting there was a benefit to have them on the schedule and that we didn't want to play them anymore. And there were a lot of pros- you could photograph our stadium and it would look full for photographs/posters. Local businesses could make some money. It might be a night game and provide for a longer tailgate. Now we still stink so if we are going to go 2-10, we may as well with a nice gate.

I should have stated my assumptions up front. But it was already too long-winded as is! LOL

The "conventional wisdom" I was putting up for debate is the belief that playing ND consistently and maintaining the rivalry is a net good thing for Purdue. I think there are some underappreciated negative aspects, such as capping our potential fan base, particularly in northern Indiana.

 

[TC4THREE]

It is not up to us; I think ND dropped us and Michigan and Michigan State to play more National games, specifically in the Southeast to extend their recruiting footprint and give them credibility.

They dropped us because they have to play something like 5 ACC games every year now so they can have a place for the rest of their sports to compete while still being able to call themselves independent. They could've kept their Big Ten rivalries in lieu of their national ones but games like USC and Stanford allows them to play out west every year and helps them in recruiting as does the ability to go play in Texas or Georgia in any given year.

 

[TC4THREE]

Also it's worthy of noting that ND has started taking on some MAC teams in future schedules which is something they have been looking down their noses at Big Ten teams for doing in the past. This is in addition to their annual rivalry with Navy.

 

[Onaway]

I think the series should die and Purdue should cancel the 2020 game. I would include all the other sports we play them in too. There is no value for them to play us so kill the series.

All the Big10 guys in my office use to talk nd football but since they have quit playing you rarely hear them mentioned. Regionally their campus is still in the state but their athletic program has moved out.

 

[FLAG HUNTER]

Notre Dame is usually a good team, stadium is full, was always good for Purdue to play them, I hope the series starts back up.

 

[RRH1]

ND @ Northwestern in 2018 and Wisconsin is talking to ND about a couple future games.

 

[wawasee]

Big Ten schools charge more for the Notre Dame game. So it is a good money maker game. ACC was a better fit for the other sports. And yes the recruiting footprint grew. I did see the Irish are playing in the Big Ten for hockey.

 

[TC4THREE]

Big Ten schools charge more for the Notre Dame game. So it is a good money maker game. ACC was a better fit for the other sports. And yes the recruiting footprint grew. I did see the Irish are playing in the Big Ten for hockey.

The exploding television revenue means that whatever extra money was made off ticket sales for Notre Dame games is a luxury and not a necessity. It's nice to have that gate every other year but we can survive off the 50k we drew for Virginia Tech also. I don't even believe the Notre Dame game was a sellout the last couple times they played at Purdue.

As for hockey, I wish we had let ND hockey rot in whatever-the-hell conference they were playing in. Delaney is using them to help hockey make more money on BTN and I get that but I'd rather just let ND play their ACC schedule every year in all sports and not schedule them in anything unless they want to bring their only one real asset to the table in the football program. ND without the football program will make the Big Ten very little money.

 

[boiler2288]

The exploding television revenue means that whatever extra money was made off ticket sales for Notre Dame games is a luxury and not a necessity. It's nice to have that gate every other year but we can survive off the 50k we drew for Virginia Tech also. I don't even believe the Notre Dame game was a sellout the last couple times they played at Purdue.

As for hockey, I wish we had let ND hockey rot in whatever-the-hell conference they were playing in. Delaney is using them to help hockey make more money on BTN and I get that but I'd rather just let ND play their ACC schedule every year in all sports and not schedule them in anything unless they want to bring their only one real asset to the table in the football program. ND without the football program will make the Big Ten very little money.

2011 official attendance was 61,555 for ND. 2013 official attendance was 61,127. We have not come close to those attendance figures for home games in Ross Ade during the DH regime. Bottomline is ND game with PU was a money maker and was basically the ONLY saturday of the fall each year that PU was ever relevant. Losing this rivalry game has made PU inconsequential and unimportant in power 5 college arena discussion. Essentially we are a laughing stock throughout the entire country. I was at the 2013 31-24 home loss to ND and sports shows the following days analyzed, disected and discussed that game on internet, tv and radio. Has ESPN or any news source even mentioned PU football since that game except to ridicule us? Losing ND series was and remains a DISASTER!

 

[FirstDownB]

2011 official attendance was 61,555 for ND. 2013 official attendance was 61,127. We have not come close to those attendance figures for home games in Ross Ade during the DH regime. Bottomline is ND game with PU was a money maker and was basically the ONLY saturday of the fall each year that PU was ever relevant. Losing this rivalry game has made PU inconsequential and unimportant in power 5 college arena discussion. Essentially we are a laughing stock throughout the entire country. I was at the 2013 20-16 home loss to ND and sports shows the folloing days analyzed, disected and discussed that game on internet, tv and radio. Has ESPN or any news source even mention PU football since that game except to ridicule us? Losing ND series was and remains a DISASTER!

This is more of a reflection of how far the program has fallen than anything. There would be plenty of media attention if we won regularly and were fun to watch. Remember ESPN Game Day in 2004? (who can forget) We had 5 games that year with >64,000 attendance and not a single one was ND.

 

[boiler2288]

This is more of a reflection of how far the program has fallen than anything. There would be plenty of media attention if we won regularly and were fun to watch. Remember ESPN Game Day in 2004? (who can forget) We had 5 games that year with >64,000 attendance and not a single one was ND.

I would tend to agree that maintaining an ND vs PU series would not be beneficial if we are were always on the shortend of a blowout. However, even in down years when we staged miraculous upsets of ND ranked teams such as (1974, 1984, 1997, 2004), we were part of the national discussion and it was fun,exciting to be engaged. I've heard talk of scheduling a "new" home/away rivalry game with likes of VT, KY, Louisville, Cincinnati being mentioned.Believe me, no body I know could care less about that kind of manufactured "rivalry". I retired to CA about 10 yrs ago and used to enjoy talking about my alma mater to folks who used to be curious about our team and the "Shillelagh" trophy/history. I now try and avoid discussions about PU and am embarrased by what has transpired in football

 

[TC4THREE]

Someone else said it for me. Our recent attendance has more to do with how bad we are than anything else. Also, the capacity of the stadium is now over 5k less than it used to be. No doubt Notre Dame would be an attendance boost for one game every two years but we don't live and die by that money anymore.

 

[IrishBlooded]

Nothing for nothing. But the B1G is swimming in cash with the various agreements. Just looking at the 2013 numbers (which should have had enough time to have impacts on every school by now). Purdue (and every other school in the B1G) made 25.7 million, 7.6 million from the B1G network alone. And every school made another 10.9 million from the ESPIN / ABC agreement.

ND has never given out the official dollar amount agreement of the NBC deal. Most think it is somewhere between 12 and 16 million / year. So money wise, Purdue is sitting on a gold mine just for conference affiliation. As far as scheduling. ND (with the exception of 2015) has had at least 1 B1G conference school on every regular season schedule since before Rockne. And has upcoming games against the B1G:

2017: MSU
2018: at MSU
2020: at Purdue
2021: Purdue
2022: at Ohio State
2023: Ohio State
2024: at Purdue
2025: Purdue
2026 / 27: MSU 1 at each

Realistically as others have pointed out. The problem for ND is in recruiting. They already battle every midwest school for every top tier midwest recruit. So why use precious games to continue to battle for those? When they can instead play games where there are even more top tier athletes such as Texas, California, Florida, Georgia, Carolina, etc. And instead use the home games in S. Bend to lure the kids to ND and sell them on the program. In football the B1G is a great conference. But nationally it is Ohio State / Michigan conference and a bunch of other schools from the last century. ND already battles projecting that same vibe as is. Why spend more games playing those schools?

While playing the ACC schedule obviously doesn't pit ND against the strongest conference in the country. The ACC made some huge upgrades in coaching this last offseason. So it will be interesting to see if / how much that helps. Personally I think ND is making the right move with the ACC deal.

But I do agree I miss those Joe Tiller teams vs ND. Just wish ND would have had a real coach for those years. Could have played a much better game against them.

 

[SMSMHSHCCND]

The exploding television revenue means that whatever extra money was made off ticket sales for Notre Dame games is a luxury and not a necessity. It's nice to have that gate every other year but we can survive off the 50k we drew for Virginia Tech also. I don't even believe the Notre Dame game was a sellout the last couple times they played at Purdue.

As for hockey, I wish we had let ND hockey rot in whatever-the-hell conference they were playing in. Delaney is using them to help hockey make more money on BTN and I get that but I'd rather just let ND play their ACC schedule every year in all sports and not schedule them in anything unless they want to bring their only one real asset to the table in the football program. ND without the football program will make the Big Ten very little money.

Yeah, this isn't true - at all. As a whole, their athletic program is one of the best in the country. Probably their weakest program is baseball and they are 3-0 against Big 10 teams (Michigan, Michigan State, and Indiana). They are just outside of the top 25. They would add a tremendous amount of revenue, which is why the Big 10 would take them in a heartbeat. That's not even mentioning what it would do on the academia side of the argument.

 

[TC4THREE]

Yeah, this isn't true - at all. As a whole, their athletic program is one of the best in the country. Probably their weakest program is baseball and they are 3-0 against Big 10 teams (Michigan, Michigan State, and Indiana). They are just outside of the top 25. They would add a tremendous amount of revenue, which is why the Big 10 would take them in a heartbeat. That's not even mentioning what it would do on the academia side of the argument.

This is all well and good, but I'm talking about sports that make money. Notre Dame Lacrosse and a quarter might buy you a cup of coffee somewhere. The dollars are in 2 sports and they wouldn't be bringing the one that they are known for to the table.

As for academics, they aren't AAU and don't bring as much to the table in way of research compared to others in the Big Ten. It's a very good and expensive undergraduate education but they have a very different focus than most Big Ten schools. You can argue if that's good or bad but they don't really fit the academic profile. Their academics won't prevent them from getting in if they ever want to but I'm guessing from the Big Ten perspective that Rutgers and Maryland were far better additions academically due to the research aspect.

http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/colleges-with-highest-research-and-development-expenditures/

Would the Big Ten take them? Sure. If they brought football. I very much doubt they'd ever have an arrangement like they've had in the Big East or ACC where they allow Notre Dame to use them for all their "other" sports and then keep their football program to themselves. I am disappointed that they allowed them in for hockey only but I think that was a situation where both sides were using the other side to land in a better spot. I assume Notre Dame will still have home hockey games televised on NBCSN and just have so higher profile opponents (in terms of tv ratings) when they play in the Big Ten and the Big Ten will add a good program to help with the credibility of the league and will likewise have more attractive matchups to put on BTN when ND plays at a Big Ten venue.