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Migrants invading Europe

lol at invading.
I listen to a lot of podcasts (while commuting, working in the yard, etc.). BBC World Service has a really good podcast of it documentaries. Two of their recent episodes were about the immigrant crisis in Europe. Really good stuff. Also, their episode about the former Russian agent that was assassinated via polonium was also really great.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02nq0lx/episodes/downloads
 
I'm curious BGB, does it not strike you that there's a certain level of abject desperation to cause folks to risk their lives like this? Do you not empathize with that at least somewhat? I'd have more respect for you (not much, but more than the zero I do now) if you at least showed some empathy, and then talked about deportation.
 
I'm curious BGB, does it not strike you that there's a certain level of abject desperation to cause folks to risk their lives like this? Do you not empathize with that at least somewhat? I'd have more respect for you (not much, but more than the zero I do now) if you at least showed some empathy, and then talked about deportation.
qaz, I have great sympathy for these people. I am very sincere about that but the harsh reality is that Europe is being overwhelmed. Europe has myriad No Go Zones as firm evidence that these Islamic migrants do not assimilate. And even if they were all Lutherans and Catholics, the vast numbers of them cannot be accommodated. Greece is bankrupt. What are they supposed to do with hundreds of thousands of starving aliens?

The sad fact of life is that the more migrants that Europe accepts, the more other Africans will try to migrate to Europe.
 
It's funny, I remember Europe didn't have problems with Africans back when they were carving up the entire continent without regard to tribal or political or religious lines, draining them of natural resources, and then when that was done or the politics changed to make such acts less acceptable, they more or less pulled out with only token assistance in some cases.

Just like Europe destroyed the middle east by "creating" states like Iraq that were bound to fracture, or Yugoslavia if you want a "leftist" example of the same really bad idea.

But now it's just a "sad fact of life" that the fruits of those decisions have returned to haunt them.
 
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It's funny, I remember Europe didn't have problems with Africans back when they were carving up the entire continent without regard to tribal or political or religious lines, draining them of natural resources, and then when that was done or the politics changed to make such acts less acceptable, they more or less pulled out with only token assistance in some cases.

Just like Europe destroyed the middle east by "creating" states like Iraq that were bound to fracture, or Yugoslavia if you want a "leftist" example of the same really bad idea.

But now it's just a "sad fact of life" that the fruits of those decisions have returned to haunt them.
I don't refute anything that you said. But I think we agree that if Europe continues allowing migrants in, more will follow. If Europe stops allowing them in, they'll stop coming.
 
I don't refute anything that you said. But I think we agree that if Europe continues allowing migrants in, more will follow. If Europe stops allowing them in, they'll stop coming.

Yes, if they build a giant wall around Europe, surround it with a firey moat, and then place fireproof alligators in the moat, migrants will probably stop coming in.
 
Yes, if they build a giant wall around Europe, surround it with a firey moat, and then place fireproof alligators in the moat, migrants will probably stop coming in.
No, you do what the British are starting to do. (1) Don't allow them in. (2) Those who sneak in get sent back where they came from.

No giant wall. No firey moat. No alligators.
 
No, you do what the British are starting to do. (1) Don't allow them in. (2) Those who sneak in get sent back where they came from.

No giant wall. No firey moat. No alligators.

Yes, because up until now, Europe always let folks in and never deported anyone or tried to keep people out.
 
It's funny, I remember Europe didn't have problems with Africans back when they were carving up the entire continent without regard to tribal or political or religious lines, draining them of natural resources, and then when that was done or the politics changed to make such acts less acceptable, they more or less pulled out with only token assistance in some cases.

Just like Europe destroyed the middle east by "creating" states like Iraq that were bound to fracture, or Yugoslavia if you want a "leftist" example of the same really bad idea.

But now it's just a "sad fact of life" that the fruits of those decisions have returned to haunt them.
Brilliantly well said. An unforeseen ramification of European Imperialism and interference.
 
Brilliantly well said. An unforeseen ramification of European Imperialism and interference.

I mean not brilliant, it's pretty much admitted/indisputable now by most people...obviously, it was a different time, mentality back then on so many levels. I admit it's hard to apply modern sensibilities in judgment given the thinking of the time...still, in hindsight massive European intervention in Africa and the Middle East is so overwhelmingly tied to many of the geopolitical problems the world faces today that it's somewhat amazing, even if now clearly obvious/predictable.

I don't think the world would be sunshine and puppies if they'd refrained. I don't think Africa would be a nirvana, or the Sunni/Shia divide would be saved...and it's not like the US and the Soviet Union didn't do our own share of using the proxies of the Cold War in a similar way...but I think there are key places you can look to that would be different...

I doubt you'd see an Iraq War
You wouldn't have apartheid
I think you'd see one or two nations in Africa at least rise to a higher "level" than any nation there has now (there'd be an analogous Brazil or two in there since while we've meddled in South American affairs, it's been nowhere near the level of European involvement in Africa).

It's just very interesting the way actions echo decades or even centuries later.
 
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Yes, because up until now, Europe always let folks in and never deported anyone or tried to keep people out.
Your post evades the issue.
Yes, because up until now, Europe always let folks in and never deported anyone or tried to keep people out.
qaz, you're evading the issue. The inconvenient truth is that the more migrants that Europe accepts, the more others will try to follow them. Please address that topic.

This link is interesting. How do the German people feel about 600 migrants moving into their neighborhood?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...mns-right-wing-riots-in-front-asylum-shelter/
 
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it's not an "issue." It's a statement in a vacuum that presupposes that the only correct answer is zero migration.
 
lol at swarms, I suppose my first proposal is not to refer to them as if they are insects.
FYI the Prime Minister of England used exactly the same term to describe the migrants and was harshly criticized by the liberal Labour Party leader for doing so.

qaz, I have posted that I favor the British plan to block these immigrants from entry and to deport those who sneak in. I have repeatedly asked you to describe the policy that you endorse but you duck the question every time. One last time, what should be done with the swa...., er, large numbers of migrants who are coming to Europe without an invitation?
 
perhaps what should be done is that Europe should take responsibility for the damage they've done to an entire continent (as well as a sub-continent), but that's not going to happen, is it?

It would require sacrificing wealth built on the backs of colonialism.
 
perhaps what should be done is that Europe should take responsibility for the damage they've done to an entire continent (as well as a sub-continent), but that's not going to happen, is it?

It would require sacrificing wealth built on the backs of colonialism.
Holy Cow, is it possible for you to provide a straight answer? Let's deal with the here and now, OK?

A boatload of 200 Libyans migrants arrive at the shore of Sicily, delivered by human traffic goons who made them pay every cent they have to make the trip. The 200 are now in Italy. What should the Italian government do with these people? And the next 200? And the next 200?
 
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Holy Cow, is it possible for you to provide a straight answer? Let's deal with the here and now, OK?

A boatload of 200 Libyans migrants arrive at the shore of Sicily, delivered by human traffic goons who made them pay every cent they have to make the trip. The 200 are now in Italy. What should the Italian government do with these people? And the next 200? And the next 200?

I'm talking about the "here and now." Europe should ask itself, why are they coming here? What role/responsibility did we have in creating the Africa of today? What does that mean for how we deal with the issues Africa is dealing with that are causing this migration of desperate people from countries we once ran? Does that mean we take these folks in? Does it mean we provide technical, monetary, and other aid? Build infrastructure?

Or does it mean we send em all back and let them deal with the problems we had a large hand in making?

We all know what your answer is.
 
I'm talking about the "here and now." Europe should ask itself, why are they coming here? What role/responsibility did we have in creating the Africa of today? What does that mean for how we deal with the issues Africa is dealing with that are causing this migration of desperate people from countries we once ran? Does that mean we take these folks in? Does it mean we provide technical, monetary, and other aid? Build infrastructure?

Or does it mean we send em all back and let them deal with the problems we had a large hand in making?

We all know what your answer is.
You are NOT talking about here and now. Here and now is boatloads of migrants coming to Italy and Greece every week. qaz, what do you advocate doing with the migrants?

http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-refugees-cross-macedonia-serbia-heading-eu-100532746.html

http://news.yahoo.com/italian-navy-rescues-4-400-migrants-off-libya-152758848.html
 
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You are NOT talking about here and now. Here and now is boatloads of migrants coming to Italy and Greece every week. qaz, what do you advocate doing with the migrants?

http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-refugees-cross-macedonia-serbia-heading-eu-100532746.html

http://news.yahoo.com/italian-navy-rescues-4-400-migrants-off-libya-152758848.html

Yep, I'm talking about the here and now. The here and now is the result of past actions. The decisions on what to do in the here and now should also reflect past actions and responsibilities. Whether that means taking in some OR it means figuring out Europe's role in a larger solution to the issues that are driving folks to Europe , I don't care which they take, probably a little of both.

Your solution is send em all back home because if you don't the entirety of Africa will move to Europe. There needs to be a larger European response, and the answer is not build a wall and a moat, nor is it send them all back home and wash your hands of it. If Europe didn't have the long, sordid history then maybe they could justify your idea of simply rounding em up and sending them back and washing their hands of it.

They can't...so they either need to come up with a plan (just like we do by the way) of determining criteria for staying, or for contributing to solving the issues in the areas of Africa that are problematic and are sending these refugees. They took over the continent before, drained it of it's wealth, stunted it's growth, and then left. They can come back and this time repair some of the damage, or they can let some folks in who are fleeing persecution or war or abject conditions. They will not collapse, the entire African continent is not going to empty into Europe.

They might gasp become more multicultural and I know how horrible that idea is to you.
 
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qaz, you're right. I apologize. Germany needs many more moslem migrants. Munich has a severe shortage of moslems and Holy Cow, let's send another million to Stuttgart ASAP.


Dude, just to help, don't try an have an intelligent conversation with qaz, it's not possible.

For example, when you ask a question, all he can do is talk about the past. Then you ask a different question, and he says he just wants to talk about the "here and now". He's a lawyer, he doesnt hold cogent thoughts, he is all about shucking and jiving. I've tried, it gets very frustrating. Just trying to save you the trouble. Go have an argument with your stove, it will probably be more coherent.
 
If you scroll up in this thread qaz claimed the "here and now" to be the period of colonialism and imperialism of European powers during the 1700s and 1800s. So it's really all relative. If you look at the time between mass extinctions., it was like moments ago.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Earths-five-mass-extinction-events.html

Exactly.

Listen, I'm sure he's a good dude. I have a brother-in-law lawyer that is one of my best friends, but he's the exact same. He only cares about winning arguments, not intellectual honesty. We talk and debate stuff all the time and it always just goes around in circles because he's always shifting, trying not to "lose".
 
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I'm late to the conversation, but since the request is for a "here and now" answer, here's some thoughts.

1. Provide humane aid to the refugees - food, shelter, etc., and do so in a way that does not dehumanize them.

2. Actually address the root cause of the situations that cause them to become refugees in the first place. Yes, this is expensive and yes, it is likely impossible to end all of the causes. However, it is possible to reduce a great deal of refugee-ism by improving conditions in the places they leave.

3. For refugees whose situation can't be improved in the places they left, there must be a way to incorporate them fully into life in a new location. This means that countries beyond Europe will have to step up, too.
 
qaz, you're right. I apologize. Germany needs many more moslem migrants. Munich has a severe shortage of moslems and Holy Cow, let's send another million to Stuttgart ASAP.

lol Except that's exactly what they are doing, taking in more immigrants, and so are several other European countries. I'm sure they will collapse any day now.
 
I'm late to the conversation, but since the request is for a "here and now" answer, here's some thoughts.

1. Provide humane aid to the refugees - food, shelter, etc., and do so in a way that does not dehumanize them.

2. Actually address the root cause of the situations that cause them to become refugees in the first place. Yes, this is expensive and yes, it is likely impossible to end all of the causes. However, it is possible to reduce a great deal of refugee-ism by improving conditions in the places they leave.

3. For refugees whose situation can't be improved in the places they left, there must be a way to incorporate them fully into life in a new location. This means that countries beyond Europe will have to step up, too.

Don't waste your time.
 
I'm late to the conversation, but since the request is for a "here and now" answer, here's some thoughts.

1. Provide humane aid to the refugees - food, shelter, etc., and do so in a way that does not dehumanize them.

2. Actually address the root cause of the situations that cause them to become refugees in the first place. Yes, this is expensive and yes, it is likely impossible to end all of the causes. However, it is possible to reduce a great deal of refugee-ism by improving conditions in the places they leave.

3. For refugees whose situation can't be improved in the places they left, there must be a way to incorporate them fully into life in a new location. This means that countries beyond Europe will have to step up, too.
I'm late to the conversation, but since the request is for a "here and now" answer, here's some thoughts.

1. Provide humane aid to the refugees - food, shelter, etc., and do so in a way that does not dehumanize them.

2. Actually address the root cause of the situations that cause them to become refugees in the first place. Yes, this is expensive and yes, it is likely impossible to end all of the causes. However, it is possible to reduce a great deal of refugee-ism by improving conditions in the places they leave.

3. For refugees whose situation can't be improved in the places they left, there must be a way to incorporate them fully into life in a new location. This means that countries beyond Europe will have to step up, too.
Of course, those are very logical and humane measure to address the crisis. And I'd have no problem with making permanent asylum for Christians, Jews and anyone other than a moslem. What is unacceptable is Merkel's lunacy of bringing in jihad monsters to prey upon you own population and spread their Islamic mind rot.
 
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Your assumption that all Muslims are terrorists hell-bent on destruction and terrorism is both uninformed and asinine.

Whether Muslim or Christian or Jewish or Atheist or whatever, these people are human beings and deserve to be treated as human beings. Right now, many of them are being treated like animals. That's unacceptable.
 
Your assumption that all Muslims are terrorists hell-bent on destruction and terrorism is both uninformed and asinine.

Whether Muslim or Christian or Jewish or Atheist or whatever, these people are human beings and deserve to be treated as human beings. Right now, many of them are being treated like animals. That's unacceptable.
What is asinine is your childish distortion of my comments. I did not say that ALL moslems are terrorists and obviously most are not. Pastor Joe, I was not previously aware that you were such an intellectual coward. Shame on you for your dishonest post.

The lunatic Islamic cult advocates killing infidels to gain access to an houri of 72 virgins in paradise. And Allah also throws in a handful of young boys for the switch hitters. Now perhaps one tenth of one percent of these Mecca-groveling goons are dumb enough and so weary of their dreary, pussyless plight that they actually become suicide bombers, jet hijackers, etc.

That's the problem Pastor Joe. If you magnanimously offer asylum to 10,000 Islamic refugees, you have no way to ferret out the dozen or so who will go jihad on you.
 
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What is asinine is your childish assumption. I did not say that ALL moslems are terrorists and obviously, most are not. Pastor Joe, I was not previously aware that you were such an intellectual coward. Shame on you for posting such nonsense.

The lunatic Islamic cult advocates killing infidels to gain access to an houri of 72 virgins in paradise. And Allah also throws in a handful of young boys for the switch hitters. Now perhaps one tenth of one percent of these Mecca-groveling goons are dumb enough and so weary of their dreary, pussyless plight that they actually become suicide bombers, jet hijackers, etc.

That's the problem Pastor Joe. If you magnanimously offer asylum to 10,000 Islamic refugees, you have no way to ferret out the dozen or so who will go jihad on you.
A good example.....

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U.S. Attorney for Minnesota Andrew Luger, at Monday’s press conference said Minnesota “has a terror recruitment problem” involving the local Somali population but didn’t say how the Somalis got to Minnesota.

In announcing the arrests of six Minnesota men charged with making repeated attempts to join the ISIS jihadist army in Syria, U.S. Attorney Andrew Luger made a stunning admission Monday.

“To be clear, we have a terror-recruitment problem in Minnesota,” he said at a press conference Monday in Minneapolis. “This case demonstrates how difficult it is to put an end to recruiting here.”

Luger said the case against the six was broken open only after one of their own changed his mind and decided to cooperate with officials. He said his office regularly reaches out and seeks those who want “to break the cycle of terror recruiting in Minnesota.”

Ground zero for the problem is the Minneapolis-St. Paul region, home to America’s largest Somali community. This community didn’t form through normal immigration. It has been created by the U.S. government through its systematic relocation of Somali refugees from their war-torn East African homeland into communities across the U.S.

Minnesota has been the most frequent depository for the Somali refugees but certainly not the only one. Other large Somali communities have been created in Columbus, Ohio, in Lewiston, Maine and San Diego, California, in Texas and other Southern states.

The Cedar Riverside neighborhood of Minneapolis has received so many Somalis over the years that it is now known as “Little Mogadishu.”

One of the men arrested, in a conversation recorded by an FBI source, described his feelings toward his adopted homeland, the United States: “The American identity is dead. Even if I get caught, whatever, I’m through with America. Burn my ID,” he said, according to a transcript filed with the case.

Somalis are radicalized in mosques, over the Internet, and from person to person contact.


Luger said there is no one person, “no master recruiter, radicalizing your son, your brother, your neighbor,” and he admitted ISIS recruitment is not only being conducted by strangers over the Internet.

“It could be their best friend right here in town,” he said. And Somali community leaders have said both young men and women are at risk of being radicalized in Minnesota.

That begs the question: If there is an acknowledged problem with Somalis joining foreign terrorist organizations, why does the U.S. government continue to import more Somalis into the United States?

But listening to Luger, and the establishment media reports about the arrests, one would never know that this problem is one of the government’s own making, say critics of the program.

Most Americans aren’t aware that the Somalis were transported to Minnesota, Maine, Ohio, Texas, California, Tennessee, Kentucky, Georgia, North Carolina, Washington and other states by the U.S. government, at taxpayer expense, with the help of the United Nations and nine resettlement agencies.

One of the FBI’s own counter-terrorism experts warned Congress in February that it is impossible to screen the incoming refugees from broken, war-torn countries, such as Syria and Somalia, where the U.S. military does not have “boots on the ground.”

Since 1991, the U.S. State Department has imported more than 100,000 Muslim Somalis straight from United Nations refugee camps into U.S. cities and towns. They arrive at a rate of 5,000 to 12,000 per year, according to State Department figures.


image: http://www.wnd.com/files/2014/09/somali_refugees.jpg




Somali pipeline to U.S. often goes through Kenya

The largest of these refugee camps is in Kenya and holds many young men with ties to the al-Shabab Islamic terror group that has been trying to spread shariah law throughout east Africa. Since the rise of ISIS in Syria and Iraq, the young Somalis coming to the U.S. have also become attracted to that notoriously brutal organization.

Many of the Somali refugees are housed in a complex of refugee camps at Dadaab, Kenya, designed for 90,000 people. It now holds more than 250,000 Somalis, according to the U.N., making it one of the world’s largest and most cramped refugee centers.

Following the April 2 slaughter of 148 Christians by al-Shabab terrorists at a university in Kenya, the Kenyan government just last week announced it has put the United Nations on notice: Either close down the Somalian refugee camps within 90 days or the Kenyan government will move in and close down the operation.

Dadaab is about 60 miles from Kenya’s border with Somalia.

Kenya has now started building a wall on its border to keep Somali terrorists from crossing into its territory to carry out attacks. The university slaughter was the second major attack in less than two years on Kenyan soil, coming on the heels of the September 2013 attack on the Westgate Mall, where al-Shabab killed 67 people, again targeting Christians.

CNN reported in 2013 that it was easy for al-Shabab jihadists to cross the border, sneak into the camps at Dadaab and pose as refugees.

“(Kenyan) authorities believe that during the build-up to the Westgate siege, Al-Shabaab operatives traveled from Somalia through the panya routes and hid among the refugees in the camp in northeast Kenya,” according to the CNN report.

The establishment media’s coverage of the six arrests Monday has not pointed out that the male suspects were either refugees or children of refugees, who entered the country through the U.S. government’s refugee resettlement program. The Associated Press, for example, in its report Monday did not mention the men were Islamic or the refugee connection.

Charged are Mohamed Abdihamid Farah, 21; Adnan Abdihamid Farah, 19; Abdurahman Yasin Daud, 21; Zacharia Yusuf Abdurahman, 19; Hanad Mustafe Musse, 19; and Guled Ali Omar, 20.

Watch this CBS Minneapolis affiliate’s report on the local Somali community’s problems with radicalization, but no mention of how the Somalis arrived in their state, or why they keep coming.


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U.S. Attorney goes to bat for Somali Muslims

Luger, the U.S. attorney in Minnesota who announced the arrests Monday, has taken an activist stance in support of perceived civil rights violations involving Somali refugees. In December he announced his office was suing the north metro city of St. Anthony, Minnesota, for rejecting the construction of a proposed Islamic center, according to a report in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune.

Proponents point out that of the 100,000 Somalis transplanted into America, the vast majority have shown no interest in terrorism. But critics say the program needs tightening up.

Former Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., introduced legislation last year that would revoke the citizenship of any American caught leaving the country to fight for a foreign terrorist organization. The legislation got nowhere but refugee watchdog Ann Corcoran believes it should be revived.

"I would let them go and revoke their passports so they can never come back," Corcoran said on blog at Refugee Resettlement Watch. "Now we will have to pay for their incarceration and a charade of rehabilitation (besides having raised them on the taxpayer’s dime)."


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/feds-admit-terror-recruiting-problem-among-refugees/#PZUDtK8WBLfhZPr3.99
 
What is asinine is your childish assumption. I did not say that ALL moslems are terrorists and obviously, most are not. Pastor Joe, I was not previously aware that you were such an intellectual coward. Your distortion of my comments is dishonest.

The lunatic Islamic cult advocates killing infidels to gain access to an houri of 72 virgins in paradise. And Allah also throws in a handful of young boys for the switch hitters. Now perhaps one tenth of one percent of these Mecca-groveling goons are dumb enough and so weary of their dreary, pussyless plight that they actually become suicide bombers, jet hijackers, etc.

That's the problem Pastor Joe. If you magnanimously offer asylum to 10,000 Islamic refugees, you have no way to ferret out the dozen or so who will go jihad on you.
 
What is asinine is your childish distortion of my comments. I did not say that ALL moslems are terrorists and obviously most are not. Pastor Joe, I was not previously aware that you were such an intellectual coward. Shame on you for your dishonest post.

The lunatic Islamic cult advocates killing infidels to gain access to an houri of 72 virgins in paradise. And Allah also throws in a handful of young boys for the switch hitters. Now perhaps one tenth of one percent of these Mecca-groveling goons are dumb enough and so weary of their dreary, pussyless plight that they actually become suicide bombers, jet hijackers, etc.

That's the problem Pastor Joe. If you magnanimously offer asylum to 10,000 Islamic refugees, you have no way to ferret out the dozen or so who will go jihad on you.

Intellectually dishonest, eh?

In the post to which I responded, you said that you "have no problem making permanent asylum for...anyone other than moslems (sic)." In the very next sentence, you refer - without any qualification or limitation - to those Muslims as "jihad monsters." I doubt I'm the only reader who read that to be a statement of your opinion of all Muslims.

I'm not intellectually dishonest - I'm trying to be ethically consistent. People are people, and you can't just ignore that and pretend they don't exist. In your own example, if 12/10,000 are bad guys, you are suggesting that declaring 99.88% of that group to be unwelcome and undeserving of basic human treatment is the only way to prevent the bad guys. That's ludicrous. My guess - and it's only a guess - is that if you took a random sampling of 10,000 of any ethnic or national group, there would be 10-12 criminals. So should we keep all of them out? Close the borders completely and say, "To hell with all of you?"
 
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