Just for conversation and debate...

[bonefish1]

First off, I'm not saying this would EVER happen, so before some of you go off the deep end, please recognize I'm just bringing this up because I'm bored at this very moment.

Let's say MBob and Saban ink a deal and Saban agrees to leave Bama and comes to PU on a 5 yr contract and says that when the 5 yrs is up, he's retiring and passing the reigns.

1) Would Saban be able to get PU into playoff contention?
2) Would he be able to win a NC?
3) If so, would the future of PU football change forever or is "Purdue is what it is"?
4) Would someone like Urban Meyer or Harbaugh get the same results as Saban?

Again, in no way, shape, or form am I suggesting this would, could or should happen. I'm just opening the question of whether it's truly all about the coach or not.

 

[Indy_Rider]

I believe really good coaches can win pretty much anywhere. Some places it's easier to get recruits than others, but a really good coach will figure out how to win regardless. Does it mean National Championship success, no, but they will always be in the conversation.

I'd love to be in the conversation.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

If you are limiting to 5 years, Purdue doesn't make the playoffs. Saban, no matter how good he would recruit, would still need a win over Michigan or OSU in the Big Ten Title Game to make the playoffs. Add to the idea that the very first time Purdue loses, they are out of contention. Programs like OSU and Alabama are the only teams that essentially have a built in gift-loss to make in the playoffs.

As much as Saban is a great coach, you have to remember his stops of being highly successful came at LSU (with huge built in advantages) and Alabama (arguably one of the most storied programs in the history of college football prior to Saban even being there). It wasn't like Saban went in to Kentucky and built it from the ground up...there was history (even some recent-ish history) of Alabama being good and the south always will remember Paul Bryant. Heck, from 2003 - 2006, Mike Shula had a run of 49 - 10. I think Harbaugh would be the most successful at Purdue considering his outlook and take on recruiting. He would be able to find the hidden advantages and in-roads with recruits that other coaches would miss.

 

[FirstDownB]

First off, I'm not saying this would EVER happen, so before some of you go off the deep end, please recognize I'm just bringing this up because I'm bored at this very moment.

Let's say MBob and Saban ink a deal and Saban agrees to leave Bama and comes to PU on a 5 yr contract and says that when the 5 yrs is up, he's retiring and passing the reigns.

1) Would Saban be able to get PU into playoff contention?
2) Would he be able to win a NC?
3) If so, would the future of PU football change forever or is "Purdue is what it is"?
4) Would someone like Urban Meyer or Harbaugh get the same results as Saban?

Again, in no way, shape, or form am I suggesting this would, could or should happen. I'm just opening the question of whether it's truly all about the coach or not.

1) Would Saban be able to get PU into playoff contention?
Not within 5 years, but the talent and depth would be there after 5 years for another coach to continue the build. Think Wisconsin or Iowa level.
Recruiting would skyrocket. He has the name recognition and the rings. We'd be up there in talent one level below UM and OSU with the likes of MSU and UW.
2) Would he be able to win a NC?
No chance.
3) If so, would the future of PU football change forever or is "Purdue is what it is"?
He wouldn't get us to "big boy" level, but once you enter perennial contender status the image of the program changes with it. See Baylor, Oregon, Michigan State, etc.
4) Would someone like Urban Meyer or Harbaugh get the same results as Saban?
Probably. Same concept. 3 and 4 star recruits would follow any of these coaches.

 

[TC4THREE]

What if it rained beer?

 

[ossim]

The answer is no to all the above. He did manage to get himself routed by Purdue while at MSU though.

 

[bonefish1]

The answer is no to all the above. He did manage to get himself routed by Purdue while at MSU though.

So, what you're saying is that regardless of who the coach is, Purdue will never be a NC caliber program (or maybe once in a great while when all the stars align?)

 

[indianphil]

Saban didnt do it a MSU with all the MSU advantages available and wholesale local talent. To me Saban is a guy who fell in slop rather than made it. Really, this is a question that we should ask the BOT...will they make the money commitment to chase a National Championship

If you look at the Wisconsin model, Ole Barry recruited some dussies up there in building the program. They had a star halfback caught selling dope at a grade school for example. Academics...no problem. Money...no problem. We would have to put up with some of this to climb really quickly up the ladder.

There are so many factors that mix in here, that the head coach is really not the end all in this debate.

 

[bonefish1]

Saban didnt do it a MSU with all the MSU advantages available and wholesale local talent. To me Saban is a guy who fell in slop rather than made it. Really, this is a question that we should ask the BOT...will they make the money commitment to chase a National Championship

If you look at the Wisconsin model, Ole Barry recruited some dussies up there in building the program. They had a star halfback caught selling dope at a grade school for example. Academics...no problem. Money...no problem. We would have to put up with some of this to climb really quickly up the ladder.

There are so many factors that mix in here, that the head coach is really not the end all in this debate.

I don't think you can argue that MSU is in a much better situation than Purdue, particularly when Dantonio get then program turned around. During the Tiller days, the MSU and PU programs were equivalent but they've really separated themselves in the last 10 years.

 

[Bigohh]

I don't think you can argue that MSU is in a much better situation than Purdue, particularly when Dantonio get then program turned around. During the Tiller days, the MSU and PU programs were equivalent but they've really separated themselves in the last 10 years.

What an understatement. The real question is WHY? Did MSU allocate more resources to football than Purdue or did Purdue just make bad choices in allowing JT to retire on the job and dictate an unsuccessful heir to his throne. I think it may have been a combo.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

What an understatement. The real question is WHY? Did MSU allocate more resources to football than Purdue or did Purdue just make bad choices in allowing JT to retire on the job and dictate an unsuccessful heir to his throne. I think it may have been a combo.

Again, I don't think JT retired on the job. I think it was a factor of seeing no matter what he put in to it, he was never going to get any more support or what he needed to be successful. At the tail end of his career, what would you expect? Had the fund and the support been there, I would venture to say Tiller probably would have coached until about 2012, Purdue would have 5-6 more bowl games under their belts, and we as fans wouldn't be seeing 15k in the stands for home games.

 

[bonefish1]

Again, I don't think JT retired on the job. I think it was a factor of seeing no matter what he put in to it, he was never going to get any more support or what he needed to be successful. At the tail end of his career, what would you expect? Had the fund and the support been there, I would venture to say Tiller probably would have coached until about 2012, Purdue would have 5-6 more bowl games under their belts, and we as fans wouldn't be seeing 15k in the stands for home games.

This is probably pretty close to the truth. Burke was probably so giddy that Tiller got the program to national prominence without breaking the bank that Burke didn't think that it needed continued investment and financial commitment, that it was on cruise control. He probably told JT "Here's our budget for football. This is what we have to work with. Now go out there, do the best you can and at least get us to another Sun bowl and we'll consider that successful".
Well, look where that got us.

 

[ossim]

So, what you're saying is that regardless of who the coach is, Purdue will never be a NC caliber program (or maybe once in a great while when all the stars align?)

Certain things would need to happen for Purdue to be a consistent NC caliber program.
1) Notre Dame has to be so terrible that they lose their tv deal and are no longer the flagship football program of Indiana
2) Purdue has to find some shady boosters that can skirt the NCAA rules without being caught. Either that or just a single really large transparent one that dumps millions into athletics.
3) Facilities are not only improved but the campus itself becomes a more attractive place for athletes - be it academically or culturally


Keep in mind Nick Saban left MSU after a ten win season because he knew he was always going to have the disadvantages of playing second fiddle to Michigan or Ohio State in the Big Ten.

 

[Bigohh]

Again, I don't think JT retired on the job. I think it was a factor of seeing no matter what he put in to it, he was never going to get any more support or what he needed to be successful. At the tail end of his career, what would you expect? Had the fund and the support been there, I would venture to say Tiller probably would have coached until about 2012, Purdue would have 5-6 more bowl games under their belts, and we as fans wouldn't be seeing 15k in the stands for home games.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Mine is based on observing that JT seemed to not be shy in criticizing the fans and the adm. to some extent but if the situation was as you surmise, he needed to say hey if we want to keep being successful here is what we need to do. I believe he was a moderately successful coach at WY with an innovative offense who lucked out by getting a kid who was injured and dropped by major programs (Brees) and caught lightning by the tail. His next selection (Orton) was less successful as he became more conservative on offense and the program slipped into the middle of the pack. His selection of his successor (Hope) was to maintain that middle of the pack mentality and it seemed to work. Unfortunately, MB with the help of some people (Grigson, Tressel, Smith, etc.) who should have been better evaluators of coaches decided to try to break the middle of the pack scenario and hire a move ahead dynamic coach. Unfortunately they whiffed on their selection and here we are at the bottom of the barrel.

 

[boilermaker75]

You have your opinion and I have mine. Mine is based on observing that JT seemed to not be shy in criticizing the fans and the adm. to some extent but if the situation was as you surmise, he needed to say hey if we want to keep being successful here is what we need to do. I believe he was a moderately successful coach at WY with an innovative offense who lucked out by getting a kid who was injured and dropped by major programs (Brees) and caught lightning by the tail. His next selection (Orton) was less successful as he became more conservative on offense and the program slipped into the middle of the pack. His selection of his successor (Hope) was to maintain that middle of the pack mentality and it seemed to work. Unfortunately, MB with the help of some people (Grigson, Tressel, Smith, etc.) who should have been better evaluators of coaches decided to try to break the middle of the pack scenario and hire a move ahead dynamic coach. Unfortunately they whiffed on their selection and here we are at the bottom of the barrel.

JT did not select Hope. That was entirely Morgan and forced onto Joe.

 

[ossim]

Yup. Tiller wanted Spack to succeed him. It was MB who selected Hope.

JT didn't retire on the job. He was never a strong recruiter to begin with. But what he had when he first came in was an ace staff that could. A lot of guys who would eventually become college head coaches and NFL assistants. The mediocrity towards the end of the Tiller era coincided with the rotating door of assistants because we wouldn't pony the money up to retain the good ones.

Also we didn't regress with Orton. We had a 9-3 season that was a field goal away from being another rose bowl team. That was also while other teams had 6 years to scheme against the spread offense.

 

[tigerchump]

First off, I'm not saying this would EVER happen, so before some of you go off the deep end, please recognize I'm just bringing this up because I'm bored at this very moment.

Let's say MBob and Saban ink a deal and Saban agrees to leave Bama and comes to PU on a 5 yr contract and says that when the 5 yrs is up, he's retiring and passing the reigns.

1) Would Saban be able to get PU into playoff contention?
2) Would he be able to win a NC?
3) If so, would the future of PU football change forever or is "Purdue is what it is"?
4) Would someone like Urban Meyer or Harbaugh get the same results as Saban?

Again, in no way, shape, or form am I suggesting this would, could or should happen. I'm just opening the question of whether it's truly all about the coach or not.

Lets remember that Big Ten teams have won only four National Titles in football since about 1960,with Michigan winning in 1997 and OSU taking all of the marbles in 1968,2002,and 2014.Those teams have always had more talent than Purdue and just about everyone else in the league.I think its remotely possible the stars could align just right and the Boilermakers could put together a team with guys like Brees,Alstott,Alford,Light,Hardwick,Stratton,Colvin,Phillips,Woodson,Sweigertetc.,but probably not,no matter who our coach is.The coach means a lot,but there is more to it.You must have great coaching,talent,guys that stay out of trouble,and your share of the breaks.Its very tough to do.

 

[Bigohh]

JT did not select Hope. That was entirely Morgan and forced onto Joe.

BS I don't know your sources but mine disagree with you. Spack might have been JT's first choice but after realizing that he was not a viable candidate he settled on Hope and pushed him hard with MB. MB thought he had a successful plan after bringing in MP as GK's heir. Unfortunately, neither has been a great hire but obviously MP has been better than Hope.

 

[Bigohh]

Yup. Tiller wanted Spack to succeed him. It was MB who selected Hope.

JT didn't retire on the job. He was never a strong recruiter to begin with. But what he had when he first came in was an ace staff that could. A lot of guys who would eventually become college head coaches and NFL assistants. The mediocrity towards the end of the Tiller era coincided with the rotating door of assistants because we wouldn't pony the money up to retain the good ones.

Also we didn't regress with Orton. We had a 9-3 season that was a field goal away from being another rose bowl team. That was also while other teams had 6 years to scheme against the spread offense.

Actually, under Orton, we were a fumble by Orton away from being a top 10 team. That was the day the Purdue football program died. I still blame JT for not raising enough h_ll if indeed keeping good assistants was a money issue. He sure was not shy about blaming facilities, fans, etc.

 

[bonefish1]

Actually, under Orton, we were a fumble by Orton away from being a top 10 team. That was the day the Purdue football program died. I still blame JT for not raising enough h_ll if indeed keeping good assistants was a money issue. He sure was not shy about blaming facilities, fans, etc.

I thought we were already Top 10 during "the fumble". ESPN Game Day was on campus, it was a night game, Orton was the leading Heisman candidate at the time and then.....he tries to gain a couple extra yards instead of sliding. We also dropped an easy interception late in the game that would have sealed it but the Orton fumble literally changed the course of the program.
team layed an egg against Michigan the following week and it's been downhill since.

 

[Bob the Boiler]

I thought we were already Top 10 during "the fumble". ESPN Game Day was on campus, it was a night game, Orton was the leading Heisman candidate at the time and then.....he tries to gain a couple extra yards instead of sliding. We also dropped an easy interception late in the game that would have sealed it but the Orton fumble literally changed the course of the program.
team layed an egg against Michigan the following week and it's been downhill since.

I was at that game. I believe we were #5 in the country at the time. We didn't even need the extra yards. I could have puked after that play.

 

[boilermaker75]

BS I don't know your sources but mine disagree with you. Spack might have been JT's first choice but after realizing that he was not a viable candidate he settled on Hope and pushed him hard with MB. MB thought he had a successful plan after bringing in MP as GK's heir. Unfortunately, neither has been a great hire but obviously MP has been better than Hope.

My source is JT.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Actually, under Orton, we were a fumble by Orton away from being a top 10 team. That was the day the Purdue football program died. I still blame JT for not raising enough h_ll if indeed keeping good assistants was a money issue. He sure was not shy about blaming facilities, fans, etc.

Purdue was a top 5 team at that point.

 

[Fan4Life]

I think Saban could get Purdue to that position.

Comparisons to what Saban accomplished while at MSU are misguided. He was a smaller name coach when he arrived there and had to build up the talent - which he did.

His name holds much more cache now than when he went to either MSU or LSU - this brings recruits immediately. Maybe not Alabama level, but top 10-15 rankings. Then he gets to coach them, and he is a really good coach.

I've read some people say that we can't win consistently until ND joins a conference or falls farther down. I disagree. Any program can win with the right combination of coaching, talent, and resources.

 

[ghostoffatjack]

Maybe I am recalling this different but my memory has an Assistant Coach from Wisconsin being MB choice to replace Tiller but JT would not agree to having him on staff for a year as he rode off to the sunset and fish!

 

[boilermaker75]

Maybe I am recalling this different but my memory has an Assistant Coach from Wisconsin being MB choice to replace Tiller but JT would not agree to having him on staff for a year as he rode off to the sunset and fish!

Or was it the Assistant Coach from Wisconsin that balked at that idea? I don't remember. Next time I get an opportunity I'll inquire.

 

[boiler2288]

You have it pretty close. Paul Chryst consulted with Barry Alvarez when MB contacted him and Alvarez recmmended he pass on the job and if he stayed at Wisky, he would "punch his ticket" next time HC position opened up.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

The answer is no to all the above. He did manage to get himself routed by Purdue while at MSU though.

and then there was this "classic" in 1997