Is the Ronnie Johnson Effect in full effect?

[axeman014]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Painter weighs in attitude and personality more than he used to out of fear of getting a couple locker room-busting guys? Don't get me wrong, I think work ethic and team chemistry are extremely important, and our current team chemistry is unbelievable and it's part of why we are so fun to watch. But surely mean, talented, athletic guys with aggressiveness is important and should factor a little more than it has been. I'm not saying Painter isn't recruiting athletic, talented guys, please don't misinterpret me. I'm just asking if we are passing on guys who may not be a 1000% perfect fit out of fear that one or two bad apples could negatively effect our entire team. Certainly RJ doesn't deserve all the blame in the past, but boy have things turned around ever since he and his brother left. I don't think I need to explain how much our team chemistry has improved since then.

I certainly don't want to sacrifice team chemistry, but what's the balance between getting a coachable player that will have great work ethic that will develop into a decent player in the future vs a guy who is flat out talented now but who may not be a 100% match for chemistry?

 

[TC4THREE]

I think he does and he should. I don't think RJ is the only example either, just the worst.

 

[BoilerDeac]

Uhh, weatherford seemed to be a pretty raw athlete with a "little mean attitude"

How did that work out?

You know, you can get coachable players that are also aggressive and 'mean spirited' or whatever.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[BBG]

Uhh, weatherford seemed to be a pretty raw athlete with a "little mean attitude"

How did that work out?

You know, you can get coachable players that are also aggressive and 'mean spirited' or whatever.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Weatherford also got in trouble off of the court before he really even got here if I remember right. So he may not be the best example.

Scott I would say fits your description but even then Painter tried to get him to stay and Scott himself said he regretted leaving.

But moot point anyway really....

 

[axeman014]

Weatherford also got in trouble off of the court before he really even got here if I remember right. So he may not be the best example.

Scott I would say fits your description but even then Painter tried to get him to stay and Scott himself said he regretted leaving.

But moot point anyway really....

You guys are absolutely correct, Weatherford was a tough, aggressive kid. Surely Painter saw Chris Kramer-like potential in him. But, let's be honest, he wasn't exactly highly recruited because he didn't have the all around package to be a really good D1 player. His upside was his work ethics and his coachable approach that might have one day translated into a decent player. He was a good Indiana High School basketball player, and I hope he does extremely well in college, but I'm not sure Purdue will ever get over the hump to win in March with him or players like Kline. I think Painter was so sick of the Ronnie Johnson-like attitude that he reached on some guys because of their work ethic and positive personality, rather then getting some guys were sheer athleticism and psychical capabilities. Yes, positive personality and sheer talent are not mutually exclusive, but it seem Paint has tipped the scale a little bit.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

Doesn't JT fit this mold a little? Although I would say he has already shown he does have some BB skills.....plus he had a lingering injury from HS as well. Like Chevy, I'm hoping to get to see more of what he can do this year.....love the attitude I've seen from him so far despite the little time he has had on the court.

 

[Dryfly88]

You guys are absolutely correct, Weatherford was a tough, aggressive kid. Surely Painter saw Chris Kramer-like potential in him. But, let's be honest, he wasn't exactly highly recruited because he didn't have the all around package to be a really good D1 player. His upside was his work ethics and his coachable approach that might have one day translated into a decent player. He was a good Indiana High School basketball player, and I hope he does extremely well in college, but I'm not sure Purdue will ever get over the hump to win in March with him or players like Kline. I think Painter was so sick of the Ronnie Johnson-like attitude that he reached on some guys because of their work ethic and positive personality, rather then getting some guys were sheer athleticism and psychical capabilities. Yes, positive personality and sheer talent are not mutually exclusive, but it seem Paint has tipped the scale a little bit.

It's Cline not Kline and WTH are you talking about? Ryan was one of the top shooting guards in the country coming out of HS and has shown nothing but positive signs so far.

 

[Statey]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Painter weighs in nice attitude and personality more than he used to out of fear of getting a couple locker room-busting guys? Don't get me wrong, I think work ethic and team chemistry are extremely important, and our current team chemistry is unbelievable and it's part of why we are so fun to watch. But surely mean, talented, athletic guys with aggressiveness is important and should factor a little more than it has been. I'm not saying Painter isn't recruiting athletic guys, please don't misinterpretation me. I'm just saying given some of our recent pick ups, like Kline and Weatherford, and some of our potential recruits out there, I get the feeling Painter really wants coachable nice guys more than other teams do.

Let's call this the Ronnie Johnson Effect--the fear of getting one or two bad apples that negatively effect our entire team. Certainly RJ doesn't deserve all the blame, but boy have things turned around ever since he and his brother left. I don't think I need to explain this any further...

I absolutely don't want to get back to our bad chemistry days, but I think we need some mean, tough guys to win. Where's the balance between getting a guy who is flat out talented, athletic, aggressive, and mean vs getting nice coachable kids that will have great work ethic? Honestly, I'm not sure the work ethic/nice guy thing will get us very far in terms of winning basketball games. It wins games in the Big Ten, but we never/would never match up against athletic teams in March. We need aggressive, mean players that want to get after people. I'm not saying we need the dirty types that Mich State get, who will literally punch other players and yell at opposing coaches, but a little mean attitude, raw athleticism, and aggressive play would get us a little further.

Perhaps Painter is overlooking guys because of the Ronnie Johnson Effect. Perhaps we need to risk it and go after some tough, athletic kids that other programs seem to have.

He absolutely should value attitude and a team mentality; why wouldn't he? That said, I'm not clear on the point of your question. Are you suggesting he values that too much in the post-RJ world? If you're trying to connect this to recent recruiting news (i.e. 2017 recruits going to other schools), I don't think this is all that relevant. If Painter were offering less and less scholarships after RJ because he refined his "baseline" for attitude, etc., then this would be a valid discussion. But I don't know that that's true. As it relates to 2017, Painter went after a lot of guys, offered them scholarships, and in many cases was one of the final teams a kid was considering. In other words, Painter didn't rule out these most recent commits, in the end they ruled Purdue out.

 

[bonefish1]

I want mean, talented guys who absolutely hate to lose. Guys like Grob, Cardinal, Chad Austin, Kramer, Kenny Lowe. I think Biggie has a mean streak in him as well.

 

[BBG]

I want mean, talented guys who absolutely hate to lose. Guys like Grob, Cardinal, Chad Austin, Kramer, Kenny Lowe. I think Biggie has a mean streak in him as well.

I think VE has a similar attitude. Not necessarily "mean" ... but the hating to lose.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

I think VE has a similar attitude. Not necessarily "mean" ... but the hating to lose.

BScott had some of that "ultra-competitiveness," but CMP couldn't get him on the same page enough....also need guys who aren't afraid to take the big shot, and I agree that VE has that in him....so does CS and RC......looking forward to seeing whether CE falls in that paradigm.

It's a good team right now.

 

[vilehoopster]

B. Scott was not ultra competitive; he was "ultra-get-points-ative." If he was competitive and wanted his team to win the game, he would have reversed the ball to the other side of the court (like Painter tried continually to teach him) and kept the offense moving, instead of just driving, almost every time (not an exaggeration) and trying to rack up points and assists. Also, if he was a team-first player, he would have played solid team defense, and not continually gone for steals that left his teammates out to dry and get them fouls, mostly our 5-man.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

B. Scott was not ultra competitive; he was "ultra-get-points-ative." If he was competitive and wanted his team to win the game, he would have reversed the ball to the other side of the court (like Painter tried continually to teach him) and kept the offense moving, instead of just driving, almost every time (not an exaggeration) and trying to rack up points and assists. Also, if he was a team-first player, he would have played solid team defense, and not continually gone for steals that left his teammates out to dry and get them fouls, mostly our 5-man.

Vile, we'll probably disagree somewhat on this, which is fine. One can be competitive with flaws, and being competitive doesn't necessarily mean high BB IQ (to resurrect a topic from the past); JMO. I also think it certainly got the best of him like with the run-in he had in HS.

I didn't intend to imply Scott was a team-first player.....think he was used to taking over, and trying to do it himself, maybe not knowing how to trust his teammates.....and that in part was why he couldn't fit in with what CMP needed from him. Led to a lot of frustration, no doubt.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Painter weighs in nice attitude and personality more than he used to out of fear of getting a couple locker room-busting guys? Don't get me wrong, I think work ethic and team chemistry are extremely important, and our current team chemistry is unbelievable and it's part of why we are so fun to watch. But surely mean, talented, athletic guys with aggressiveness is important and should factor a little more than it has been. I'm not saying Painter isn't recruiting athletic guys, please don't misinterpretation me. I'm just saying given some of our recent pick ups, like Kline and Weatherford, and some of our potential recruits out there, I get the feeling Painter really wants coachable nice guys more than other teams do.

Let's call this the Ronnie Johnson Effect--the fear of getting one or two bad apples that negatively effect our entire team. Certainly RJ doesn't deserve all the blame, but boy have things turned around ever since he and his brother left. I don't think I need to explain this any further...

I absolutely don't want to get back to our bad chemistry days, but I think we need some mean, tough guys to win. Where's the balance between getting a guy who is flat out talented, athletic, aggressive, and mean vs getting nice coachable kids that will have great work ethic? Honestly, I'm not sure the work ethic/nice guy thing will get us very far in terms of winning basketball games. It wins games in the Big Ten, but we never/would never match up against athletic teams in March. We need aggressive, mean players that want to get after people. I'm not saying we need the dirty types that Mich State get, who will literally punch other players and yell at opposing coaches, but a little mean attitude, raw athleticism, and aggressive play would get us a little further.

Perhaps Painter is overlooking guys because of the Ronnie Johnson Effect. Perhaps we need to risk it and go after some tough, athletic kids that other programs seem to have.

This post has some sauce!

 

[GoatStatus]

Vile, we'll probably disagree somewhat on this, which is fine. One can be competitive with flaws, and being competitive doesn't necessarily mean high BB IQ (to resurrect a topic from the past); JMO. I also think it certainly got the best of him like with the run-in he had in HS.

I didn't intend to imply Scott was a team-first player.....think he was used to taking over, and trying to do it himself, maybe not knowing how to trust his teammates.....and that in part was why he couldn't fit in with what CMP needed from him. Led to a lot of frustration, no doubt.

I agree just because you are competitive doesn't mean you can't be stupid. I don't personally think Bryson is stupid but at times he played stupid.

 

[TC4THREE]

I want mean, talented guys who absolutely hate to lose. Guys like Grob, Cardinal, Chad Austin, Kramer, Kenny Lowe. I think Biggie has a mean streak in him as well.

What a great idea! I was leaning towards guys who like to lose but you convinced me otherwise!

 

[Heller]

You guys are absolutely correct, Weatherford was a tough, aggressive kid. Surely Painter saw Chris Kramer-like potential in him. But, let's be honest, he wasn't exactly highly recruited because he didn't have the all around package to be a really good D1 player. His upside was his work ethics and his coachable approach that might have one day translated into a decent player. He was a good Indiana High School basketball player, and I hope he does extremely well in college, but I'm not sure Purdue will ever get over the hump to win in March with him or players like Kline. I think Painter was so sick of the Ronnie Johnson-like attitude that he reached on some guys because of their work ethic and positive personality, rather then getting some guys were sheer athleticism and psychical capabilities. Yes, positive personality and sheer talent are not mutually exclusive, but it seem Paint has tipped the scale a little bit.

The thing about Weatherford is he was never going to be a pro. The best thing he could do for himself was to find a school that would allow him to get the best education he could without the workload of a major college D1 basketball program. Leaving was best for him and best for Purdue.

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

The thing about Weatherford is he was never going to be a pro. The best thing he could do for himself was to find a school that would allow him to get the best education he could without the workload of a major college D1 basketball program. Leaving was best for him and best for Purdue.

Wow. This bunkering is starting to get a little scary. The truth is that he should have never been offered a D1 scholarship. Painter failed Purdue by offering. Painter then failed the kid by having him leave. If you think his life will be enriched by not getting a Purdue degree, then...whatever. You guys will excuse away anything.

 

[TC4THREE]

Wow. This bunkering is starting to get a little scary. The truth is that he should have never been offered a D1 scholarship. Painter failed Purdue by offering. Painter then failed the kid by having him leave. If you think his life will be enriched by not getting a Purdue degree, then...whatever. You guys will excuse away anything.

You need to follow college basketball. Kids transfer out of programs everywhere like they change socks.

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

You need to follow college basketball. Kids transfer out of programs everywhere like they change socks.

Not many top tier D1 coaches offer kids that can't play basketball. We're special that way.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

I want mean, talented guys who absolutely hate to lose. Guys like Grob, Cardinal, Chad Austin, Kramer, Kenny Lowe. I think Biggie has a mean streak in him as well.

Those guys are no brainers.

Where it gets interesting is when looking at a guy like PJ Thompson. I knew people close to his high school who thought the world of PJ as a person. From a character perspective, he was exactly the kind of kid you want in your program, yet his only high major offer was Purdue and he had to wait until Spring of his senior year to get it.

Given a choice between PJ or another RJ, I would take PJ every time in a heartbeat.

 

[Heller]

Not many top tier D1 coaches offer kids that can't play basketball. We're special that way.

Every single program has kids like that occasionally. Crean has them regularly. As far as making an excuse it's more like maybe the kid wants to play and he's not going to at Purdue. Plus there were some issues with how he practiced form what I heard. So a solution was for him to leave. I also watched some of his play in AAU where he played with Cline and he had potential.

 

[TC4THREE]

Not many top tier D1 coaches offer kids that can't play basketball. We're special that way.

Again I say, you need to watch college basketball.

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

Again I say, you need to watch college basketball.

To gain a little perspective, I'd suggest you start watching teams other than Purdue (including the teams Purdue plays). Maybe even, and I know this is probably a bridge too far, try to watch some teams that aren't in Indiana.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Wow. This bunkering is starting to get a little scary. The truth is that he should have never been offered a D1 scholarship. Painter failed Purdue by offering. Painter then failed the kid by having him leave. If you think his life will be enriched by not getting a Purdue degree, then...whatever. You guys will excuse away anything.

I don't know too much about Weatherford, but there are times when Painter will offer a guy that he thinks has the potential. Painter offered Carsen Edwards when he was a 2 star and pretty much off the radar. He offered Weatherford a couple weeks after he had a really good AAU tournament and showed potential. From what I can tell, in those two examples he had one hit and one miss.

In Weatherford's case, Painter thought he saw some Chris Kramer in him and from a perspective of speed and strength the comparison was accurate. In other ways, it became clear that he is no Chris Kramer. I am certain that when Painter offered Weatherford he made his expectations clear and it was also clear that Weatherford made some very poor off the court decisions last season. Time to move on. Weatherford leaves with a year of free education. He got his shot and he knew what he was getting into. He has no reason to complain.

 

[TC4THREE]

To gain a little perspective, I'd suggest you start watching teams other than Purdue (including the teams Purdue plays). Maybe even, and I know this is probably a bridge too far, try to watch some teams that aren't in Indiana.

I do. Clearly your comments indicate you don't.

 

[Dryfly88]

Not many top tier D1 coaches offer kids that can't play basketball. We're special that way.

Nash: Here is a link to the list of kids transferring just this year. I'm not justifying Weatherford or any transfer for that matter, it's just fair to point out that transfers happen everywhere. Just look at the list of schools on here. Many of the "major" programs have them every year. Lots of different reasons and sometimes, yes, it's because they can't play at the high D1 level. It isn't unique to Purdue.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14390188/college-basketball-transfer-list

 

[nagemj02]

"Plus there were some issues with how he practiced form what I heard. So a solution was for him to leave."

I'm not disagreeing with you Heller and I also thought it was a mistake for Painter to even offer him but what were the issues with the way Weatherford practiced? I'm just curious what that means.