In State Recruits

[tjreese]

If Purdue can contain the dr

I think we are close to complete agreement, which is no surprise as we are both from the same town. What I don't agree with is that everyone's opinion doesn't count. For me it does if only to establish a baseline from which the person is coming from. It's hard to correct a faulty opinion if I think is unknown. Once again I will add that perspective has a lot to do with whether an opinion is right or wrong as well. For people who grew up in a middle to upper class school system, inclusion of certain groups such may seem unnecessary. This is the premise behind things such as affirmative action in the workplace. For me, a middle class white male, it seemed unfair to be placed towards the back of the line in the hiring process. But for a minority or a female during the mid 80's, it absolutely seemed necessary to break through the barriers that existed at the time. Perspective changes the validity of these types of opinions and is no different in public schools where finding is scarce and relies upon compliance.

I think an opinion that the earth is flat needs to be corrected. But I am open to ones reasoning to belief such a thing. I am often wrong and may be in this matter as well. But without sharing opinions, we limit ourselves in available data to make have an educated opinion. I was for then war in Iraq at the time and today it seems it was perhaps a mistake. We evolve as we learn if we are open minded enough to accept that we can be wrong. I think that's important in education as well. To stifle a child's opinion limits that child to possible data and prevents them from the willingness to share and to accept being wrong, which ultimately leads to correction under the right circumstances.

In my opinion we are about to see the best season Purdue has ever had under Painter and that hopefully will prove to be a valuable opinion.

If Purdue can contain the dribble this very easily could be his best team. One of my brother-in-laws boss was Rick Haynes a black man that was one of the head negotiators for the Iranian hostage situation. Prior to Carter appointing him to that position he was the head of personnel for Cummins in Columbus, IN.

In the 70s he took the approach that he wasn't going to just hire a black person to fill a position as was common practice. Instead, they would hire qualified blacks as it wasn't fair to those qualified to have someone not qualified to fill a quota. I had a lot of respect for that position.

Relative to the war. "I was for then war in Iraq at the time and today it seems it was perhaps a mistake."

All, I know is the pullout was a mistake. A person that makes an effective, great pass that leads to a missed layup shouldn't result that the pass was a mistake...unless it was obvious that person could never make a basket. The war ended up being a mistake...whether that conclusion had to be is up for debate.

I really don't want a waitress (jsut an example) determining which way to place an I beam absent some resolution of the forces...that opinion is not needed. There are a lot of examples where the opinions should not be counted, but that is not to say those same people couldn't have very valid opinions in other areas. In 99% of the potential subjects my opinion would not be very important...and I understand that and don't need my ego stroked.

 

[Do Dah Day]

If Purdue can contain the dr

If Purdue can contain the dribble this very easily could be his best team. One of my brother-in-laws boss was Rick Haynes a black man that was one of the head negotiators for the Iranian hostage situation. Prior to Carter appointing him to that position he was the head of personnel for Cummins in Columbus, IN.

In the 70s he took the approach that he wasn't going to just hire a black person to fill a position as was common practice. Instead, they would hire qualified blacks as it wasn't fair to those qualified to have someone not qualified to fill a quota. I had a lot of respect for that position.

Relative to the war. "I was for then war in Iraq at the time and today it seems it was perhaps a mistake."

All, I know is the pullout was a mistake. A person that makes an effective, great pass that leads to a missed layup shouldn't result that the pass was a mistake...unless it was obvious that person could never make a basket. The war ended up being a mistake...whether that conclusion had to be is up for debate.

I really don't want a waitress (jsut an example) determining which way to place an I beam absent some resolution of the forces...that opinion is not needed. There are a lot of examples where the opinions should not be counted, but that is not to say those same people couldn't have very valid opinions in other areas. In 99% of the potential subjects my opinion would not be very important...and I understand that and don't need my ego stroked.

but ... but ... but ... I love my opinion far more than I like your facts!

 

[proudopete]

If Purdue can contain the dr

If Purdue can contain the dribble this very easily could be his best team. One of my brother-in-laws boss was Rick Haynes a black man that was one of the head negotiators for the Iranian hostage situation. Prior to Carter appointing him to that position he was the head of personnel for Cummins in Columbus, IN.

In the 70s he took the approach that he wasn't going to just hire a black person to fill a position as was common practice. Instead, they would hire qualified blacks as it wasn't fair to those qualified to have someone not qualified to fill a quota. I had a lot of respect for that position.

Relative to the war. "I was for then war in Iraq at the time and today it seems it was perhaps a mistake."

All, I know is the pullout was a mistake. A person that makes an effective, great pass that leads to a missed layup shouldn't result that the pass was a mistake...unless it was obvious that person could never make a basket. The war ended up being a mistake...whether that conclusion had to be is up for debate.

I really don't want a waitress (jsut an example) determining which way to place an I beam absent some resolution of the forces...that opinion is not needed. There are a lot of examples where the opinions should not be counted, but that is not to say those same people couldn't have very valid opinions in other areas. In 99% of the potential subjects my opinion would not be very important...and I understand that and don't need my ego stroked.

I get your pint but we aren't talking about waitresses. These are kids with undetermined futures. How is a teacher suppose to guide them if they don't have data to make an educated decision?
Politics aside. I try to listen more than I speak so that I may learn not only what the othe person knows, but also what it is they clearly don't know. Yiu know a lot about basketball so when you type, I read. As far as wars and hostages, I only know what you say you know and I don't really have the knowledge to determine if it is valid or just opinion. I agree the pullout was probably not a good idea. But had it not been for the invasion and the mistakes made during and after the invasion, pulling out wouldn't have even been an option. History tells us that we gained nothing in that war unless one was an arms dealer or soldier of fortune. My main point by using that war was that at the time, I didn't think it through. I was a lifelong conservative and my President said let's go and I followed. Today I see the damage it has done to my friends and and neighbors and they most likely will never be right again. Too big of a price in my opinion.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Today I see the damage it has done to my friends and and neighbors and they most likely will never be right again. Too big of a price in my opinion.

Totally agree. The damage to a generation of our young (mostly) men is so far greater than the benefit that may have been gained. I have two sons in the military. One deployed today. Why? I just think about the phrase: "We have bigger fish to fry." Five tours in Iraq, two in Afghanistan, one in S.Korea. A destroyed marriage and a damaged second one, a severely wounded soul, totally disenchanted families. Friends who have PTSD and and are threats to themselves and their loved ones every day. These are two guys with master's degrees in very challenging areas, high skills, fluent in Arabic and Spanish, and both just want to buy some land and raise food for their families. War has a far greater affect on those of us here than those who send our young men over there have any understanding of.

 

[Born Boiler]

Glancing back through this conversation, any real wonder why someone would want to leave Indiana?

Just kidding ... except kids have always talked about leaving home. Some do. Some don’t. Nothing new about that. Television and “social” media have no more influence than dragging laundry home.

And, frankly, a lot of other states routinely produce a lot more basketball talent than Indiana, including our immediate neighbors to the west, north and east. That’s why our “all-stars” only play Kentucky’s.

As for 1980s prominence, Purdue had three AP Top Ten finishers, three Big Ten championship teams and eight 20-win seasons while extending its Big Ten record streak to 22 years of upper- division finishes, plus a Final Four appearance that featured the 7-foot Boilermaker who would be the No. 1 pick in that year’s NBA Draft. We can only wish we could be haunted by our 1980s.

Indiana, on the other hand, got limited exposure in those days. Indiana is nowhere to be found in the Top Ten list for the most-watched NCAA championship games from 1975 to 2015 (except for top-rated Indiana … State). https://www.statista.com/statistics/219645/ncaa-basketball-tournament-games-by-tv-ratings/ Apparently many of their fans lack electricity as well as teeth.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Excellent. well written and on target. I will simply throw a couple of terms out there.
1. MORE THAN ANYTHING - Anti-intellectualism is the best way to be cool and popular. How many kids are sent to expensive sports camps and have special trainers? How many are sent to expensive academic camps and have special tutors? Where's the emphasis. Do the QB and cheerleader win Queen and King? What to the NHS President and Valedictorian win during their school days?
2. Most (not many, most) parents are not as involved as you have been and yes, most do rely on the schools to teach things parents should be teaching, but aren't.
3. Teaching to the test is the way to get high test scores which is the way to get more money .... don't think, just regurgitate. This crushes the thought-process and reduces the ability to filter and make personal choices. Creative thinking is not a good thing when it comes to test scores.
4. The meager resources that are provided to schools these days are stretched into areas that were not there 40 years ago. Unfunded mandates that do not address education of most of the students.

I agree with this in almost every facet. I will point out that over 50% of the state budget is dedicated to education. The shear size of the task dictates this. This makes efficient use for the funding imperative and supports stopping test based funding metrics ASAP.
The building blocks of the human mind are established in the first 4 years of life. It should therefore is the responsibility of the parents to educate their child in those first four years. Knowledge of and acceptance of that responsibility will match a map of higher socioeconomic levels to a T. No politician will say that because he does not want to lose the votes of the masses. Get politicians out of education. They simply do not have our children's best interest at heart.

 

[tjreese]

I get your pint but we aren't talking about waitresses. These are kids with undetermined futures. How is a teacher suppose to guide them if they don't have data to make an educated decision?
Politics aside. I try to listen more than I speak so that I may learn not only what the othe person knows, but also what it is they clearly don't know. Yiu know a lot about basketball so when you type, I read. As far as wars and hostages, I only know what you say you know and I don't really have the knowledge to determine if it is valid or just opinion. I agree the pullout was probably not a good idea. But had it not been for the invasion and the mistakes made during and after the invasion, pulling out wouldn't have even been an option. History tells us that we gained nothing in that war unless one was an arms dealer or soldier of fortune. My main point by using that war was that at the time, I didn't think it through. I was a lifelong conservative and my President said let's go and I followed. Today I see the damage it has done to my friends and and neighbors and they most likely will never be right again. Too big of a price in my opinion.

No problem and very fair. I understand. One thing I tried to make a point is that the results do not always indicate the approach was bad. I do NOT know if the war was a mistake. I liked the idea of controlling their education by being there particularly since I knew the social reform that would take place. It may or may not have been a good idea to go to war, but it was a bad idea to give a date and pull out once there. I doubt anyone debates that it was a good idea to give a date for the pullout and then do it, but there can be all kinds of reasonable people debate whether the war should have been started. THAT was essentially what I was saying...not to judge the result by the intention as sometimes execution is the problem.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

Get your 5 minutes of fame on YouTube. The selfie generation. College kids thinking they are entitled to have their grandparents make their college "free" through taxation.

LOL what!? hold the phone...grandparents are dumping 20T in interest bearing debt on their grandkids. Tell me who is entitled?

 

[tjreese]

LOL what!? hold the phone...grandparents are dumping 20T in interest bearing debt on their grandkids. Tell me who is entitled?

fully understand the 20T and debt, but that is NOT all on grandparents as there are many entitled young parents and such. TRue point on the future though

 

[proudopete]

No problem and very fair. I understand. One thing I tried to make a point is that the results do not always indicate the approach was bad. I do NOT know if the war was a mistake. I liked the idea of controlling their education by being there particularly since I knew the social reform that would take place. It may or may not have been a good idea to go to war, but it was a bad idea to give a date and pull out once there. I doubt anyone debates that it was a good idea to give a date for the pullout and then do it, but there can be all kinds of reasonable people debate whether the war should have been started. THAT was essentially what I was saying...not to judge the result by the intention as sometimes execution is the problem.

With all during respect. The same person who began the war also set the date for withdrawal. So one way or another that person is to blame. I'll let you choose which one you blame him for as your perspective is clearly different from mine.

 

[tjreese]

With all during respect. The same person who began the war also set the date for withdrawal. So one way or another that person is to blame. I'll let you choose which one you blame him for as your perspective is clearly different from mine.

Perhaps I need to read what I wrote again as I thought I wrote that (1)I didn't know if the war was a mistake and that reasonable people could debate that. I also think I said that (2)announcing a date and then pulling out was a mistake that I didn't think was debatable. Lastly, I tried to state that (3)results due to poor execution doesn't make the thought a bad idea. Perhaps I never wrote those three things and instead was blaming "him" whoever that missing person was? I will need to read again when I get a chance...

 

[BoilerAndy]

LOL what!? hold the phone...grandparents are dumping 20T in interest bearing debt on their grandkids. Tell me who is entitled?

I already did.

Everyone is to blame for the debt. We all -- including the college kids -- put these people in office. And only 5% of the voters think the national debt is top priority.

 

[proudopete]

Perhaps I need to read what I wrote again as I thought I wrote that (1)I didn't know if the war was a mistake and that reasonable people could debate that. I also think I said that (2)announcing a date and then pulling out was a mistake that I didn't think was debatable. Lastly, I tried to state that (3)results due to poor execution doesn't make the thought a bad idea. Perhaps I never wrote those three things and instead was blaming "him" whoever that missing person was? I will need to read again when I get a chance...

That's exactly what you wrote. But you're trying to cherry pick parts out of the whole by only focusing on the withdrawal. The withdrawal was part of the whole which was the war and you yourself said the withdrawal being a bad idea isn't debatable. Thus as it was part of the whole which was the war, the war was a bad idea. Did you think we would just occupy a democracy that we created and that didn't want us there anymore? That wouldn't be much of a democracy, would it? That would be a bad idea as well and knowing what we know now about the effects on tens of thousands of young men and women, I don't think it's debatable.
What exactly did you expect to get out of that war? Peace?

 

[BoilerAndy]

That's exactly what you wrote. But you're trying to cherry pick parts out of the whole by only focusing on the withdrawal. The withdrawal was part of the whole which was the war and you yourself said the withdrawal being a bad idea isn't debatable. Thus as it was part of the whole which was the war, the war was a bad idea. Did you think we would just occupy a democracy that we created and that didn't want us there anymore? That wouldn't be much of a democracy, would it? That would be a bad idea as well and knowing what we know now about the effects on tens of thousands of young men and women, I don't think it's debatable.
What exactly did you expect to get out of that war? Peace?

"Did you think we would just occupy a democracy that we created and that didn't want us there anymore?"

Where do you get that crazy idea? Who is this "they" you are referring to? You can argue the wisdom of the war, but to say "they didn't want us there" speaks mainly for the terrorists. Do you really think that civilized Iraqis wanted US troops to leave?

The withdrawal, as executed, was not part of the war. It was poorly executed by people with contempt for the military and with absolutely no concept of history.

As for the effects on the returning men and women, look at what they returned to. Illegal aliens and refugees from the Middle East are higher priority than our people who served their country. They are treated like crap by their own government. Why wouldn't they be suffering?

 

[tjreese]

I already did.

Everyone is to blame for the debt. We all -- including the college kids -- put these people in office. And only 5% of the voters think the national debt is top priority.

"WE" , well at least "THEY" are to blame as you said. The mess was created by us as we hit the snooze and went back to sleep

 

[tjreese]

That's exactly what you wrote. But you're trying to cherry pick parts out of the whole by only focusing on the withdrawal. The withdrawal was part of the whole which was the war and you yourself said the withdrawal being a bad idea isn't debatable. Thus as it was part of the whole which was the war, the war was a bad idea. Did you think we would just occupy a democracy that we created and that didn't want us there anymore? That wouldn't be much of a democracy, would it? That would be a bad idea as well and knowing what we know now about the effects on tens of thousands of young men and women, I don't think it's debatable.
What exactly did you expect to get out of that war? Peace?

What I wrote I'm happy that you agree is what I wrote. The conclusions YOU drew are NOT the only considerations or events as a result. I've explained this enough and would be happy to pick it up again sometime, but I'm sure this is boring on a basektball forum. Whatever chance at peace there would be by having forces there as in so many other places in the world for years and years is greater than the alternative for this group of people still living in 800 AD. Without a "MIND" change reproduction of the last several hundred of years will continue. It is not as though problems only existed as a result of the war. Problems existed prior to the war and have for years and years all across the globe. The stakes are getting higher and higher and historically it has been shown that there has always been growth sought by the sword. Historically, there is no evidence to support peace without a peaceful country intervening to create the conditions for peace and no evidence those living in 800 AD are capable by themselves of creating and living in peace...NONE.

Again, I'm reminded that making a nice pass to a cutting player going to the basket that fumbles the pass out of bounds doesn't mean it was a bad idea to pass the ball (it could, but it doesn't by itself mean that) to that player, but merely means the execution was bad...even if some think that pass shouldn't have been made "SINCE" it was fumbled...

 

[proudopete]

What I wrote I'm happy that you agree is what I wrote. The conclusions YOU drew are NOT the only considerations or events as a result. I've explained this enough and would be happy to pick it up again sometime, but I'm sure this is boring on a basektball forum. Whatever chance at peace there would be by having forces there as in so many other places in the world for years and years is greater than the alternative for this group of people still living in 800 AD. Without a "MIND" change reproduction of the last several hundred of years will continue. It is not as though problems only existed as a result of the war. Problems existed prior to the war and have for years and years all across the globe. The stakes are getting higher and higher and historically it has been shown that there has always been growth sought by the sword. Historically, there is no evidence to support peace without a peaceful country intervening to create the conditions for peace and no evidence those living in 800 AD are capable by themselves of creating and living in peace...NONE.

Again, I'm reminded that making a nice pass to a cutting player going to the basket that fumbles the pass out of bounds doesn't mean it was a bad idea to pass the ball (it could, but it doesn't by itself mean that) to that player, but merely means the execution was bad...even if some think that pass shouldn't have been made "SINCE" it was fumbled...

Once again, Iraq became a democracy after our invasion. The people of this democracy didn't want our forces there and would not assure our soidiers immunity from war crimes if they stayed.
You are comparing Iraq with past situations and I assume you mean Japan and Germany as I cannot think of other nations we have occupied after a war. There are stark differences in these comparisons I don't think you are considering. For one, there is a 60 gap which is enough time for many changes in the world. The period between the civil war and WWII is approximately the same length. Second, Japan attacked us and Germany was invading many countries across Europe. Iraq didn't attack us and they were not invading other countries. We were playing the role of Germany in this case as we invaded them.
It all comes back to my in rial premise of perspective playing a huge role in an opinion being right or wrong. You see the invasion as right based on your interpretation of the situation, and I on the other hand see it as wrong. You may very well be right in your circle of life as you debate it amongst like minded individuals and the same goes for me.
I think the difference is that when I look at the whole, the invasion, the reasons given for the invasion, the deaths on both sides, the results we see today both in Iraq and at home, I am not sure there is enough sponnabkw data available for a 'reasonable mind' to make a convincing argument. Perhaps you do or perhaps you are just clinging to past beliefs that may not be true? I am not sure which it is. But right or wrong, I still feel your opinion is valuable as it provides data needed to make an educated decision. An idea such as a pass can be a good decision and it can fall apart in the procedure. But if the end result is a turnover, then there was something in the procedure that went wrong and it is likely due to a variance in reality compared to the initial thought process. The same can be said for the war. It may have sounded like a way to create freedom in Iraq and peace in the region? But it's obvious that that costs were not considered accurately and that the thought of a free Iraq not wanting our soldiers there hadn't been considered as well.

 

[atmafola]

It is prevalent in every aspect of life. A combination of entitlement, no delayed gratification (per the internet or texting ... info immediately available ... replies made immediately), not taking responsibliity for ones' actions, and self-centerdness. Most drivers will agree that drivers today want everyone to drive the way THEY want them to drive. Trophy for every player, frustration if one needs to wait for anything (microwave, credit cards). How are people when they are waiting in line?

Many educators and psychiatrists feel that narcissim (self-centerdness) and lack of taking responsibility for ones actions are the greatest changes in people over the past 20 years.

not many posts I disagree with. But this one reads like one of those usual old men criticizing the young. That attitude is as old as time. Anytime you find yourself criticizing how the new world is different from what the one you remembered, stop yourself. There's a good chance you are being judgemental and hypocritical. That also applies to posts criticizing other posts, like mine is doing.

 

[atmafola]

If Purdue can contain the dr

I

Relative to the war. "I was for then war in Iraq at the time and today it seems it was perhaps a mistake."

All, I know is the pullout was a mistake. A person that makes an effective, great pass that leads to a missed layup shouldn't result that the pass was a mistake...unless it was obvious that person could never make a basket. The war ended up being a mistake...whether that conclusion had to be is up for debate.

I really don't want a waitress (jsut an example) determining which way to place an I beam absent some resolution of the forces...that opinion is not needed. There are a lot of examples where the opinions should not be counted, but that is not to say those same people couldn't have very valid opinions in other areas. In 99% of the potential subjects my opinion would not be very important...and I understand that and don't need my ego stroked.

to some of us, (although I had the benefit of having a more global and less US-centric background), the Iraqi war never made sense from the start. For us, it looked like a case of bad group think on a national scale. Like I said back then, Saddam Hussein may be a strong-man dictator (partly because his country required that type of leadership), but he wasn't suicidal. The positions we were ascribing to him here in the US necessarily required him to be psychotically erratic and positively suicidal. I just didn't see that when I viewed the totality of his actions. All I saw was a dictator of a restless country desperate for self-preservation. The reasons given for the war seemed so obviously flimsy and nonsensical, I just kept wondering why others weren't seeing it. And don't get me started on the adequacy of the plans for the war and post war efforts, or the unnecessary rush to war.

 

[tjreese]

to some of us, (although I had the benefit of having a more global and less US-centric background), the Iraqi war never made sense from the start. For us, it looked like a case of bad group think on a national scale. Like I said back then, Saddam Hussein may be a strong-man dictator (partly because his country required that type of leadership), but he wasn't suicidal. The positions we were ascribing to him here in the US necessarily required him to be psychotically erratic and positively suicidal. I just didn't see that when I viewed the totality of his actions. All I saw was a dictator of a restless country desperate for self-preservation. The reasons given for the war seemed so obviously flimsy and nonsensical, I just kept wondering why others weren't seeing it. And don't get me started on the adequacy of the plans for the war and post war efforts, or the unnecessary rush to war.

you forgot to add the cost of political correctness to the effort as well. Still, this situation was NOT new...we just went to sleep by hitting the snooze many times. Smarter people than us (well, people with better intel) will disagree with each other as in this forum...but many were on record begging to be allowed to do the job. I think people need to ask if there was a problem in that area of the world. If not, nothing needed done. If a problem, then what different "might" create a different response? As I said reasonable people can debate if war should have commence (a lot of people thought so). I don't think too many reasonable people can say the pullout execution was a good thing...I do not see that debateable. Obviously there is a difference in pulling out and the execution of pulling out as to a degree of goodness.

 

[proudopete]

you forgot to add the cost of political correctness to the effort as well. Still, this situation was NOT new...we just went to sleep by hitting the snooze many times. Smarter people than us (well, people with better intel) will disagree with each other as in this forum...but many were on record begging to be allowed to do the job. I think people need to ask if there was a problem in that area of the world. If not, nothing needed done. If a problem, then what different "might" create a different response? As I said reasonable people can debate if war should have commence (a lot of people thought so). I don't think too many reasonable people can say the pullout execution was a good thing...I do not see that debateable. Obviously there is a difference in pulling out and the execution of pulling out as to a degree of goodness.

You keep saying the pullout being a good thing isn't debatable but I for one feel your opinion is flawed. I have mentioned at least twice that we made an agreement with a democracy to remove our forces as they were no longer wanted there. Reasonable people, it would seem would feel follow if through with an agreement between two democracies is a good thing. You have not even tried to provide a reason as to why it isn't.
I also think your premise that these people live in the year 800 A.D. Is seriously flawed as well. There is no eveidnece to support that premise and it is merely another diversion on your part used to support what appears to be a flawed perspective when speaking about people in the Middle East. I can asure you that many areas in the Middle East are just as modern or more so than our own country and specifically Kokomo Indiana. Anyone in the security feild can tell you that these people have used technology in ways that we haven't even considered befor hand. Perhaps they choose to not plant themselves in front of the TV drinking alcohol while dressing their women provocatively like we do here. I don't really see that as a bad thing as many things we do here in future land are exactly what has landed us in the situation we find ourselves in today.

 

[mathboy]

Let's move this stuff off the basketball board folks. Doesn't belong here.

More than one problem has come from pulling out too soon or too late!

 

[BoilerAndy]

Let's move this stuff off the basketball board folks. Doesn't belong here.

More than one problem has come from pulling out too soon or too late!

You're being naughty.

 

[Do Dah Day]

not many posts I disagree with. But this one reads like one of those usual old men criticizing the young. That attitude is as old as time. Anytime you find yourself criticizing how the new world is different from what the one you remembered, stop yourself. There's a good chance you are being judgemental and hypocritical. That also applies to posts criticizing other posts, like mine is doing.

You are welcome to your opinion. There is an awfully lot of peer-reviewed and highly valid evidence to support that road-rage is a new attitude, that hitchhikers were usually successful years ago, that earning rewards builds a better "character" than being handed a participation trophy, that employers (probably mostly old guys) are sick and tired of new employees feeling entitled to things that one would need to work for to earn in the past. An almost total rejection of delayed gratification cannot be disputed - see credit cards, drive throughs, microwaves, fast food, texting, ad infinitum. I may be old, but I have children from 21 through 46. I see , hear, discuss, experience a lot of this new world. And I care about how my kids act, interact, succeed, fail, and contribute to society.
There may be aspects of life in the '80's and '90's that are not as good as these days, but my post was to highlight a shift in specific attitudes which contribute toward the subject at hand.
And please don't tell me to stop thinking the way I think... you are not entitled to do that.

 

[atmafola]

You are welcome to your opinion. There is an awfully lot of peer-reviewed and highly valid evidence to support that road-rage is a new attitude, that hitchhikers were usually successful years ago, that earning rewards builds a better "character" than being handed a participation trophy, that employers (probably mostly old guys) are sick and tired of new employees feeling entitled to things that one would need to work for to earn in the past. An almost total rejection of delayed gratification cannot be disputed - see credit cards, drive throughs, microwaves, fast food, texting, ad infinitum. I may be old, but I have children from 21 through 46. I see , hear, discuss, experience a lot of this new world. And I care about how my kids act, interact, succeed, fail, and contribute to society.
There may be aspects of life in the '80's and '90's that are not as good as these days, but my post was to highlight a shift in specific attitudes which contribute toward the subject at hand.
And please don't tell me to stop thinking the way I think... you are not entitled to do that.

of course you have missed the point completely. change is change. I get it you may not like it. it may feel weird and different to you. But doesn't make change bad or good. It's just change. Personally, I'm fascinated by how things are different now compared to the past. But I am nowhere presumptuous enough to call one better than other. We could all do without judgement you attach to change. There's nothing that makes what you find familiar better or worse than what those in another era or from another background find familiar. That you and your fellas moan about it at work says more about you guys. Perhaps y'all are just entitled and like to moan. At least you have that in common with us young folks.

 

[BoilerAndy]

You are welcome to your opinion. There is an awfully lot of peer-reviewed and highly valid evidence to support that road-rage is a new attitude, that hitchhikers were usually successful years ago, that earning rewards builds a better "character" than being handed a participation trophy, that employers (probably mostly old guys) are sick and tired of new employees feeling entitled to things that one would need to work for to earn in the past. An almost total rejection of delayed gratification cannot be disputed - see credit cards, drive throughs, microwaves, fast food, texting, ad infinitum. I may be old, but I have children from 21 through 46. I see , hear, discuss, experience a lot of this new world. And I care about how my kids act, interact, succeed, fail, and contribute to society.
There may be aspects of life in the '80's and '90's that are not as good as these days, but my post was to highlight a shift in specific attitudes which contribute toward the subject at hand.
And please don't tell me to stop thinking the way I think... you are not entitled to do that.

Agree. Anyone who thinks that attitudes and behaviors haven't changed has their head in the sand. If you say that after looking at inner city public schools in the 1960's and look at them today, you are being dishonest.

Maybe we are saying the same thing that grandpa said about our generation. But that doesn't mean grandpa was wrong.

 

[BoilerAndy]

of course you have missed the point completely. change is change. I get it you may not like it. it may feel weird and different to you. But doesn't make change bad or good. It's just change. Personally, I'm fascinated by how things are different now compared to the past. But I am nowhere presumptuous enough to call one better than other. We could all do without judgement you attach to change. There's nothing that makes what you find familiar better or worse than what those in another era or from another background find familiar. That you and your fellas moan about it at work says more about you guys. Perhaps y'all are just entitled and like to moan. At least you have that in common with us young folks.

You bring up a good point. But don't be afraid to judge change. Hitler represented change. Hurricanes represent change. Treatments for disease represent change. Helping 3rd world nations feed themselves represents change. Change is obviously not just change.

 

[Do Dah Day]

of course you have missed the point completely. change is change. I get it you may not like it. it may feel weird and different to you. But doesn't make change bad or good. It's just change. Personally, I'm fascinated by how things are different now compared to the past. But I am nowhere presumptuous enough to call one better than other. We could all do without judgement you attach to change. There's nothing that makes what you find familiar better or worse than what those in another era or from another background find familiar. That you and your fellas moan about it at work says more about you guys. Perhaps y'all are just entitled and like to moan. At least you have that in common with us young folks.

I missed NO POINT. I get you loud and clearly (an adverb!). Loss of respect ... you really think that is neither bad nor good? It doesn't feel weird or different ... it feels like lack of respect. Lack of basic social interaction skills. Is that judgement? Like this paper is more well-written than that one, and this one deserves and A and that deserves a C? Is lack of respect ever good, even if it is unfamiliar? Interesting. And that is total Bullshit that people who have worked many years and done great work to earn a promotion or a raise are ENTITLED to moan ... that one sentence causes me to disrespect most of what you say. Showing -up most days for six months does not ENTITLE you to a raise.

 

[Do Dah Day]

of course you have missed the point completely. change is change. I get it you may not like it. it may feel weird and different to you. But doesn't make change bad or good. It's just change.

The mere use of the phrase "of course you have missed the point" is an indication of your lack of respect for my thoughts .... go look in your mirror.

 

[atmafola]

The mere use of the phrase "of course you have missed the point" is an indication of your lack of respect for my thoughts .... go look in your mirror.

go read the last sentence of my original response to you. I was poking fun at myself for being guilty of the same thing I was criticizing you for. Isn't it interesting that you take issue with being called entitled but have no qualms calling others that. I deliberately worded the last two sentences of my previous response to make that point to you.

 

[atmafola]

You bring up a good point. But don't be afraid to judge change. Hitler represented change. Hurricanes represent change. Treatments for disease represent change. Helping 3rd world nations feed themselves represents change. Change is obviously not just change.

great points.

 

[Do Dah Day]

go read the last sentence of my original response to you. I was poking fun at myself for being guilty of the same thing I was criticizing you for. Isn't it interesting that you take issue with being called entitled but have no qualms calling others that. I worded my last response on purpose that way to point make that point to you.

I guess vietnam jungles, buddies falling into pits with bamboo spears sitcking up to spear them, losing JFK, RFK, and MLK, enduring Nixon as well as the four Kent State students dying from our National Guard has made me feel like there are things others can never understand.

 

[atmafola]

I guess vietnam jungles, buddies falling into pits with bamboo spears sitcking up to spear them, losing JFK, RFK, and MLK, enduring Nixon as well as the four Kent State students dying from our National Guard has made me feel like there are things others can never understand.

and I won't dare presume to understand those things or denigrate them. Perhaps you could show similar deference to other perspectives that are different from yours. Of course, you are not obligated to.

 

[Do Dah Day]

and I won't dare presume to understand those things or denigrate them. Perhaps you should show similar deference to other perspectives that are different from yours.

OK, I promise I'll try hard to understand how not giving to get is a good thing, that giving with no expectation of getting is not a good thing, that road rage over stopping to help someone with a flat tire is a good thing, that expecting an employee to work harder than others to get the promotion is a bad thing ... I'll try really hard, I promise.

 

[atmafola]

OK, I promise I'll try hard to understand how not giving to get is a good thing, that giving with no expectation of getting is not a good thing, that road rage over stopping to help someone with a flat tire is a good thing, that expecting an employee to work harder than others to get the promotion is a bad thing ... I'll try really hard, I promise.

Thats's a great start. I am not sure how much success you'd have. Those are not even the aspects of what you initially wrote that I objected to. But I'd be glad if as you suggested, you become more willing to try and understand different perspectives, even seemingly absurd ones.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Thats's a great start. I am not sure how much success you'd have. Those are not even the aspects of what you initially wrote that I objected to. But I'd be glad if as you suggested, you become more willing to try and understand different perspectives, even seemingly absurd ones.

namaste

 

[mathboy]

What the hell is this piss-storm in a tea cup all about?

Doesn't sound like basketball to me. Let's drop it. Too many people are acting offended by others seeking to offend. No reason in the world for anyone to get into this pointless argument on this board.
Gees... I wish basketball would start soon and get everyone's minds focused on something other than picking on each other here.

 

[atmafola]

namaste

had to google that. Thanks for teaching me something new. Goodnight and thanks for engaging in this discussion.

 

[Do Dah Day]

had to google that. Thanks for teaching me something new. Goodnight and thanks for engaging in this discussion.

May the goodness that is within you shine out to all around you .... always a worthy intent.

 

[tjreese]

You keep saying the pullout being a good thing isn't debatable but I for one feel your opinion is flawed. I have mentioned at least twice that we made an agreement with a democracy to remove our forces as they were no longer wanted there. Reasonable people, it would seem would feel follow if through with an agreement between two democracies is a good thing. You have not even tried to provide a reason as to why it isn't.
I also think your premise that these people live in the year 800 A.D. Is seriously flawed as well. There is no eveidnece to support that premise and it is merely another diversion on your part used to support what appears to be a flawed perspective when speaking about people in the Middle East. I can asure you that many areas in the Middle East are just as modern or more so than our own country and specifically Kokomo Indiana. Anyone in the security feild can tell you that these people have used technology in ways that we haven't even considered befor hand. Perhaps they choose to not plant themselves in front of the TV drinking alcohol while dressing their women provocatively like we do here. I don't really see that as a bad thing as many things we do here in future land are exactly what has landed us in the situation we find ourselves in today.

Actually I said the execution of the pullout was bad. I agree with Mathboy and have tried to get this back on basektball. Nothing has changed in what I said. We didn't have to leave how we did and it was a mistake. There is much I could write, but there is no reason...AND this is a basketball forum and this has went on with the only single positive thing that you typing more realizing that sometimes it requires more typing to qualify that which you wish to say...which is ironic in how this started...