Nice to see Josh talking up his guys...
Haarms
- Thread starter punaj
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Interesting shooting form ... palm on the ball ... elbow out ... hand rotated onto the outside...
Maybe just where it happened to be caught coming into position.
Maybe just where it happened to be caught coming into position.
I notice some concerns as well and it is just hard to tell without knowing the angle. When you say "coming into position"...THAT is "a" key to consistency. It is important that all passes are brought into roughly that right nipple (but out from chest) for a right handed shooter. THAT is the alignment and it is good for coaches and when pairing up that players receive low, high, left side and right side passes to ALWAYS bring the ball into position prior to lift.THAT is alignment for left and right. Trying to find the shooting pocket without that vertical alignment will create inconsistencies. The elbow should be slightly out so that you do NOT lock the shoulders. As Ernie Hobbie would stress (easier to understand than Baumgartner) right handed shooter can practice lift with right thumb going above right eye...and you will notice a slight bend out of the elbow. Ball should not be on palms, but on shooting "pads" as you alluded.
Many of these things are really hard to see without knowing the angle of the shot and where the pic is taken and so I can't state for a fact that Haarms has some issues in many shooting areas. However, when I first noticed the picture and I wasn't going to type on this you will see that his guide hand "appears" to be too much on top of the ball...rather than on the side with a perpindicular placement of the thumbs. Here is a pic of Smooge and you can see his off hand is on the side of the ball whereas with Matt Haarms ti doesn't appear so...this forces Haarms to shoot "through" his off hand instead of having it as a guide...
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There's so many talented players in college/NBA with poor shooting form, that's it's hard to really have too much concern over it. Shawn Marion, Lonzo Ball, Tawshayn Prince (whom had a release identical to Haarms), but they were all very successful. It's never too late to try to work on it, and it should be addressed at some point, but if he's consistent with it and it goes in, kudos. It's all about muscle memory.
muscle memory is huge and that is why proper muscle memory is really important. Still, a person can become a good shooter with poor form...it is just that proper technique he would be even better. There is an anatomy issue in shooting correct...just like holding a pencil without fatigue...or throwing a fastball. No every one that smokes get cancer either, but not smoking makes you less likely. I remember Wally Jones...and he had poor form...same with reggie miller...and so forth. Good form will not make you a good shooter, becasue as you say...it needs practiced...but practicing bad form is much less efficient and why a coach in high school would allow it is beyond my wildest imagination. No way should Terone and Ronnie had as many adventures shooting jump shots or Ft's as they did. Imagine shooting a 100 shots and all of them were "however" to get into the lift point...what if there were 4 ways...did you just get 25 shots of practice 4 times for muscle confusion?
But yes muscle memory is good, but muscle memory of proper technique is much better..and we didn't even talk about footwork...
Agreed... noticed the same guide issue as well.I notice some concerns as well and it is just hard to tell without knowing the angle. When you say "coming into position"...THAT is "a" key to consistency. It is important that all passes are brought into roughly that right nipple (but out from chest) for a right handed shooter. THAT is the alignment and it is good for coaches and when pairing up that players receive low, high, left side and right side passes to ALWAYS bring the ball into position prior to lift.THAT is alignment for left and right. Trying to find the shooting pocket without that vertical alignment will create inconsistencies. The elbow should be slightly out so that you do NOT lock the shoulders. As Ernie Hobbie would stress (easier to understand than Baumgartner) right handed shooter can practice lift with right thumb going above right eye...and you will notice a slight bend out of the elbow. Ball should not be on palms, but on shooting "pads" as you alluded.
Many of these things are really hard to see without knowing the angle of the shot and where the pic is taken and so I can't state for a fact that Haarms has some issues in many shooting areas. However, when I first noticed the picture and I wasn't going to type on this you will see that his guide hand "appears" to be too much on top of the ball...rather than on the side with a perpindicular placement of the thumbs. Here is a pic of Smooge and you can see his off hand is on the side of the ball whereas with Matt Haarms ti doesn't appear so...this forces Haarms to shoot "through" his off hand instead of having it as a guide...
As long as it goes in often, I will be happy to just grin and bear it while mumbling to my grandson that "I see what he does, but you need to make an effort to do it right..." and watch him give me that "Yeah, right" look that teens are so natural with...
His shot looked really smooth to me in the tapes from the ISU game.
It'll be interesting to see how his year goes. I think he can be a complete matchup nightmare if he controls his body well reading people's comments on him (I have not seen him play yet personally).
Also, the "Be Special" tag line they've been using on social media....I mean, "special" is the best word we could come up with? We're special! It doesn't really scream killer, intimidating Big Ten program.
With total respect to those who support Haas being more athletic, how many times has a great big man taken the game over and how many times has a great slasher/shooter taken a game over?
In all cases you need a good cast for that to happen, but the bigs depend on getting the ball which may or may not happen and the guards already have the ball and so a crucial element to taking over is having the ball...
I agree with that, but to my knowledge no creature has existed that was Haas size with JJ athletic ability not even Shaq imo. The other poster said it best when he said unicorn
BingoIn all cases you need a good cast for that to happen, but the bigs depend on getting the ball which may or may not happen and the guards already have the ball and so a crucial element to taking over is having the ball...
Wonder if his potential & development curve will be closer to Myers Leonard of IL or Haas of Purdue? Hope the former, but if so he won't be here long in that scenario.....but it sure would be a welcomed addition if he can develop that welll and that fast.
Can't teach the athleticism, and height. So for Haarms case, he just need to bulk up and be physical.
Can't wait the Haa(m)s Express to develop this year!!
Boiler Up!
Can't wait the Haa(m)s Express to develop this year!!
Boiler Up!
i won't complain if it leads haarms to similar shooting streaks
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i won't complain if it leads haarms to similar shooting streaks
I saw Reg too. Criticism of his form is much ado about nothing.
criticism of his form is warranted...criticism of his results is not. Teach 100 kids the right fundamentals and if you can find another 100 with the same physical attributes and don't teach them the right things and I guarantee you those taught will shoot better. This thread was never about whether someone could be effective shooting the ball with poor technique...it was about shooting better with better technique. Haarms has shot well and I doubt anyone on here has been a big as fan of him as me...before he played his first game...but the picture suggests problems in form.
Coaches should work on shooting...just like timing off screens, setting your man up for screens , reading D...all the little things hidden from the average fan that make a huge difference in the outcome...else why have a coach to do anything other than roll the ball out on the court.
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what is your max age/experience level to change form...
you expect the staff to start altering it?
Well, I was with Ernie Hobbie in Mackey and suppose to work with Cardinal. He was the guru and I wanted to learn the differences between him ...the little I knew about Mount and Keller (both little) and Dick Baumgartner. Instead, Brian was tied up and Mike Robinson came out. I basically listened and passed the ball to Mike as Ernie instructed Mike on technique. Ernie did his "no stance, no chance" comment quite a bit with Mike and concentrated with Mike pushing off the floor. He started out with Mike shooting one handed in front of the goal...and slowly moved him back until he was shooting one handed beyond the FT line. He worked with Mike on coming out of the chair. There was grip, lift and "get it going to the basket", but I seem to recall a bit more leg work with Mike. Now Ernie was a regular for Gene, and coach K at Duke ...as well as Hurley's dad and sons. I had been more familiar with Baumgartner, but what I saw frmo Mike in his improvment was simply amazing. He had Mike moving out to where he was standing on the baseline out of bound and stroking it...making him get more out of his legs adn Mike was either a junior or senior at Purdue at that time (it would have been when Cardinal was there...and the two forwards that were recruited that got FRank in trouble....names escape me were on the other end).
Ernie and Dick had both worked with people in the NBA that were trying to improve and so I really don't know the max age. Minor adjustements can happen during the season, but perfecting it requires summer work or just a lot of time in the gym. What was so disappointing was that the miracle in Mackey I personally witnessed was not practiced by Mike as I left there thinking Mike would really be able to stroke it this year, but Mike never increased the muscle memory doing the right things. This was during a summer and after a Keady camp with Ernie being there.
Completely agree with what you said in principle, but I don't think there's enough data to make any assertion on his technique. And from this angle, I would contend that his form looks good.
I always wonder how good people like that would have been with good form...
Guess I just don't get form doesn't matter...
I understand one can be successful with bad form, but I still think it matters.
I believe if you make a repeatable motion you can be successful in sports even if the form is not ideal. My analogy is golf where there are many bad form swings that result in winning tournaments. One example is Jim Furyk. There are many other examples.
This is not really that complicated that I should repeat myself. Form is crucial to become the best you can be, but some can become great with poor form. The concept discussed is getting confusing and it shouldn't...
In general, it takes 120 days at 500 shots a day of the new form. 200/day won't do it. Somewhere in-between might. And every time a shooter goes back to his old form, he needs at least 15 more days. The problem becomes one of not playing ANY games/scrimmages/anythinh other than just shot after shot.
ok interesting. sounds like the answer is yes then.
so being an early enrollee since last year suggests he may already be trying to change . wonder if it changes much by next year
that makes stephens intriguing too then,
considering his dads teachings, coupled with the purdue staff. doesnt appear his altered much either (season 2 pictured)
That is the first thing I noticed about Haarms is that Kendall was on top of the ball as well. If you know of a shooting instructor that teaches that, tell me who it is since I have never encountered that approach. My biggest area I thought Kendall could improve upon while at Purdue was his footwork. Kendall would over stride and shoot somewhat sideways. Almost all people want the shooter square to the basket prior to shooting, but there was a guy in the ABA (I know Al Rhodes from Warsaw years ago had him at a clinic...back when he had Grose?) that was concerned only with landing square with the idea of squaring while in the shot. I can't mentally accept that as a good approach either.ok interesting. sounds like the answer is yes then.
so being an early enrollee since last year suggests he may already be trying to change . wonder if it changes much by next year
that makes stephens intriguing too then,
considering his dads teachings, coupled with the purdue staff. doesnt appear his altered much either (season 2 pictured)
What I don't know and my money says you don't know is how much work the staff puts into form. That is the reason why Ernie was there and a couple of years ago we read about Basil, Dakota and other working with a shooting coach. Coaches are limited in how much work they can do off season and during the season there are soooooooo many team things to do. My understanding is that it is the individual (like Biggie) that must put in the extra time outside of practice for individual skills.
What is confusing for me is that it appears you think fundamentals in shooting are not important? I disagree with that. What I have stated, and given examples of were players that were very effective, but had poor form. Are you suggesting that the guide hand be placed on top of the ball rather than the side and whichever is taught has similar effectiveness?
i have a question for you are you a basketball coach, did you play basketball in HS if u answer yes to both questions u must also be a shooting coach bcuz u have an opinion on Matt harms shot as well as my son and it’s ok u have ur opinion but at this point in there lives as season approaches u suggest right now to change his form to shoot it correctly bcuz it looks awkward how he holds the ball to shoot it. Just so u no yes the coaches work on fundamentals skills and shooting with those who needs them. I have spoken to several shooting coaches and let me tell u what most of them told me just about my son on shot is keep shooting the ball get many reps up as often as he can. They didn’t suggest right now to try to change his shot but suggested for my son to get shots up everyday bcuz from what they told me no shot is perfect as long as u have confidence in it keep shooting it right or wrong way bcuz last I checked it’s many many players in the NBA that don’t shoot much Rondo, Ben Simmons, can’t shoot or shoot awkwardly and they making millions of dollars doing what they do. I no what my son problem is he lost confidence in his shot bcu to him it didn’t feel right and he was a very good shooter during his first 2 years of HS than something went wrong we’re he just lost all confidence in his shot. What I no is this at this point right now for my son no matter how he is shooting his ahot or how he is releasing it I’m glad he is shooting the ball now bcuz his confidence is coming back and shooting is a lot about confidence and as long as he has that I’m happy with that and in due time he will b consistent shooting his shot. Bottom line Matt harms shot works for him and at 20 years old u cannot simply suggest that they should change it bcuz how he shots it as long as it’s going in consistently he will b fine. Helping the team win probably is more on his mind than how he shoots the ball.
Thanks again for the perspective you bring having a son on the team. Always enjoy reading your posts.
I am no coach, but I played in high school and way too much at the co-rec while I should have been in class at Purdue. All I can really add to this is that yes, confidence is huge. I played with guys that had ugly form, but when they were hot they were on fire. For me personally, when I wasn't feeling it I would get in my head, the basketball felt heavy, and nothing went in... other days it felt like everything was good and the basketball was light as air.
I have no proof of this, but there can't be much time for individual shooting in practice. If you are good enough to play college ball, I can't think coaches are going to waste time teaching shooting, form, etc when there are so many other things to do with offense/defense. But kids have to put in the time on their own... 100s to 1000s of shots a day, imo.
We had a young man come into the Purdue program a few years back. Couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. He was such a poor shooter that most teams wouldn't even guard him. They sent him to all the best shooting coaches, but none seemed to be of any help. If I remember right, they even took him over to the great Rick Mount. My point is, all the coaching in the world cannot help a kid with his shooting if he has no confidence. I believe that confidence is 80 % of shooting. There's a place where the confidence is so great during a game where the player realizes that he can't miss, it's called "The Zone " . It happens seldom for some players and often for others. The great shooters seemed to be in the zone more often than not. But what I'm saying is that it's a feeling of extreme confidence that the player knows when it's happening. Once you've been there you you want to get back!!
I will try to address as much as I can. played...coached...not a declared shooting coach as a title, but probably more capable than many HS coaches today. You mention confidence and yes THAT is huge. I have a brother-in-law that was drafted by the Celtics...and he was not a shooter (he couldn't teach it either) and a player I coached that led the state in scoring at 30.8 pts/game BEFORE the three point shot...and I can tell you his shot was not perfect and needed constant attention. That mental approach of confidence lies in a different category than proper technique. As has been said more times than needed for comprehension...a person can have poor technique and be effective...NOBODY is debating that. What has been discussed is the potential improvement in effectiveness in doing the right things...and YES...nobody is perfect or has a perfect shot. What you will also notice if you read my posts is that my initial comments were that it was hard to know about Matt's shot without seeing the angle he was shooting. 70 boiler said it appeared he had his palm on the ball rather than his shooting pads...which I think all would say is NOT good...IF the picture is accurate and not misleading. I commented that having the guide hand on top of the ball is not the best approach...but NONE of that says that being improper is indicative of not being efficient as a shooter.
AS you have been told in other threads where you took exception was that nobody is perfect and as good as a player is...there is always room to improve an Achilles Heel. I think everyone sees a very high ceiling for Nojel and feel comfortable that he will be a VERY good player for Purdue and hope he makes a living in the NBA for a long time. None of that suggests a player is not good, because every single player on Purdue is a really good player...even the ones that never hit the court. Glenn Robinson was a great player...one of the best ever for Purdue, but many would say his defense could improve. That doesn't mean he never worked on it or was bad...just a potential area for improvement
no disagreement in the value of confidence in all of sports...and huge in shooting. That player should shoot well in practice, but maybe not in the game. FWIW...it is RARE to see people work on their own with concentration and speed when by themselves and so as others have also said...muscle memory is crucial as well. This whole thread is not about who is a great shooter and who is not and the MANY variables that can go into making a shooter better with proper techniques than improper technique. NONE of this suggests that all shooter will proper technique will be great shooters or that improper technique shooters will be poor shooters. There are always exceptions to anything we find...but exceptions should be treated as exceptions. Proper technique is very important. Proper practice of proper technique for muscle memory is very important...and CONFIDENCE that it will go in is crucial as well...
U hit it on the nail. My son lost all confidence his senior year in HS. He would not shoot the ball bcuz it didn’t feel right to him he tried fixing it on his own I tried helping him his Trainer tried helping him but nothing seemed to work it was very frustrating trying to figure it out but I’ll say this he never stop working on it spent hours everyday and night working on it and somewhat slowly it was kinda getting better. We were trying to help him b4 he got to purdue in June to fix it and we’ll lets say they saw it for themselves and a couple workouts in they saw that his shot didn’t look to good and immediately took action. Form shooting working on his footwork positioning his body how he was releasing whatever they broke it down for him till he started getting comfortable and confident in shooting it. For my son it was just a matter of him shooting his shot same way no matter how he was shooting it bcuz in practice he wasn’t shooting the ball at all. At WUG he took all but 1 3 point attempt and it went in and to me I had always said if he makes 1 than it’s just a matter of time he will start gaining confidence in shooting his shot. We all figured out what was his problem and all the coaches got film on him so he can now see himself shooting it and put a plan in place to help him fix just some minor things with his shot and it seem to have worked. It still may not b perfect how he shooting it but to me I’m so happy now that he has gained confidence in shooting it and to me that is half the battle. Now any team that goes under balls screens on him better beware he now has Confidence to shoot it and if he start hitting his shot consistently boy will he b a matchup nightmare to defend. 6”7 guard 225 pounds of solid muscle that can play and defend 4 positions and now has confidence in his shot all I will say that’s good for purdue and bad for the opposing teams they will face. I’m ready for some basketball and tonight I’ll be in the gym representing my son wearing my son jersey and cheering on the basketball team to victory. There is a video out there of my son taking to reporters after the exhibition game against IS and he even talked about how he gained confidence especially after the WG how he just got in gym consistently working on his shot and how that has helped him get more comfortable and confident in shooting his shot. I see good things happening this season with this team.
Shaq is the most dominant player I've never seen. He couldn't hit free throws like Isaac either.
How many championships did Kobe and Wade win without Shaq? He couldn't hit free throws like Isaac either.
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