Edwards should be playing more PF

[BoilerDeac]

Overall, VE has performed nicely in the SF/3 role, but I can't help but think he should still be playing the 4. Him at the 4 stretches defenses, and he can play well out of the high post if/when teams use a zone against Purdue.

Biggie's rebounding at the 4 position is a huge asset, but Vince is pretty good on the boards in his own right.

I like Edwards a lot, but his game isn't predicated on taking guys off the bounce from the perimeter...he doesn't excel at that. In a perfect world, he would be as effective at the SF position as he is as a PF, but I don't think that's the case.

 

[Dryfly88]

I'm interested in others take on this topic and Vince in general. I'm admittedly very disappointed so far this year in his performance. I really thought he would blossom this year and be our go to guy. I haven't given up on that hope but would sure like to see some signs it's coming!

 

[CRBoiler]

To me, there are a few guys who need to look more for opportunities to fake and then pass or drive into the midrange & paint. Edwards, yes, but also Hill, Stephens, others.

It seems to me executing convincing shot and pass fakes and then exploiting the defense when it reacts could make a difference for our team. Some, like Mathias, seem to do it naturally (remember the recent Dakata shot fake then quick pass to AJ for the dunk). Where I came from, coaches taught and we practiced these "fake" skills from almost the beginning (i.e. before even junior high ball), but it doesn't seem like as many kids are doing those things now. Maybe fakes are just less effective at this level? I don't think so though... I remember Luke Hancock from Louisville leaving half a dozen defenders' jock straps on the floor a game from his fakes.

 

[Dryfly88]

To me, there are a few guys who need to look more for opportunities to fake and then pass or drive into the midrange & paint. Edwards, yes, but also Hill, Stephens, others.

It seems to me executing convincing shot and pass fakes and then exploiting the defense when it reacts could make a difference for our team. Some, like Mathias, seem to do it naturally (remember the recent Dakata shot fake then quick pass to AJ for the dunk). Where I came from, coaches taught and we practiced these "fake" skills from almost the beginning (i.e. before even junior high ball), but it doesn't seem like as many kids are doing those things now. Maybe fakes are just less effective at this level? I don't think so though... I remember Luke Hancock from Louisville leaving half a dozen defenders' jock straps on the floor a game from his fakes.

I know this will probably be blasphemy on this board but Bob Knight said many times that the most underutilized moves in basketball are the shot and pass fakes. Probably one of the few things he and I would agree on!!

 

[punaj]

I know this will probably be blasphemy on this board but Bob Knight said many times that the most underutilized moves in basketball are the shot and pass fakes. Probably one of the few things he and I would agree on!!

I think Knight was a brilliant basketball mind, just a dick at times. If he were Purdue's coach all those years I'm sure we'd all love him.

Anyway, back to the OP. I think Biggie is very valuable at the 4. He is averaging more rebounds as a freshman that JJ did as an all American senior and Biggie looks more confident doing it. He just needs more games under his belt to really get the college game - remember he should be a high school senior right now. That gives us the luxury of planning Vince at the 3 and I think he has Hummel type potential with a higher ceiling. Right now it's just that, potential. I really hope both guys figure it out soon because with Hammons out there with them this team could've special this year. I really wish Carsen Edwards gave up his senior year too and was at Purdue playing some PG.

 

[*4purdue*]

Overall, VE has performed nicely in the SF/3 role, but I can't help but think he should still be playing the 4. Him at the 4 stretches defenses, and he can play well out of the high post if/when teams use a zone against Purdue.

Biggie's rebounding at the 4 position is a huge asset, but Vince is pretty good on the boards in his own right.

I like Edwards a lot, but his game isn't predicated on taking guys off the bounce from the perimeter...he doesn't excel at that. In a perfect world, he would be as effective at the SF position as he is as a PF, but I don't think that's the case.

Lol... I remember last year everyone complaining that he was playing out of position and really needs to play at the 3.

 

[rjmpu82]

VInce and RD both need to be more aggressive on the offensive end. I have no clue if it is just their personality or coaching or what, but we need points from both of them. This would help our bigs as well as our stand alone shooters. Vince can penetrate and hit a short pull up if he can't get all the way to the rim. Biggie stays at the 4....I think he is leading the BIG in rebounding...why change that?

 

[BoilerDeac]

VInce and RD both need to be more aggressive on the offensive end. I have no clue if it is just their personality or coaching or what, but we need points from both of them. This would help our bigs as well as our stand alone shooters. Vince can penetrate and hit a short pull up if he can't get all the way to the rim. Biggie stays at the 4....I think he is leading the BIG in rebounding...why change that?

I never said Biggie wasn't doing fine; I think he's been good and can do things you can't teach. He just gets it (although still makes inexperienced turnovers), and is clearly talented.

I just think Purdue might benefit from not playing swanigan and Edwards at the same time as much as they do.

 

[FleeTheScene]

VInce and RD both need to be more aggressive on the offensive end. I have no clue if it is just their personality or coaching or what, but we need points from both of them. This would help our bigs as well as our stand alone shooters. Vince can penetrate and hit a short pull up if he can't get all the way to the rim. Biggie stays at the 4....I think he is leading the BIG in rebounding...why change that?

Ray being more aggressive usually means more bad drives with a blocked layup. I'm ok with him shooting more open threes if he gets them but he hasn't been a great creator lately.

 

[BBG]

Ray being more aggressive usually means more bad drives with a blocked layup. I'm ok with him shooting more open threes if he gets them but he hasn't been a great creator lately.

Wonder if that is because of his injury.

 

[FleeTheScene]

Wonder if that is because of his injury.

It's a good question but he did it a fair amount before his injury too. It's more an issue of decision making more than athleticism I think.

 

[BBG]

It's a good question but he did it a fair amount before his injury too. It's more an issue of decision making more than athleticism I think.

Good point. Defensively he hands down is effective, but offensively I see what you mean.

It's a trade off right, if he works on offense then his defense could suffer. Question is IF that is the case, is that an acceptable thing to have? That is more of a thought provoking rhetorical question than anything else.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

CMP was quoted as saying that Vince has said he enjoys not having to bang with the bigger bodies every game but he enjoyed being able to easily take most 4's off the dribble. He will adjust to the 3 in time and needs to be better at taking advantage of the motion offense when the ball is in his hands and when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

I went back and looked at the Iowa game and it seemed like some guys tend to just float around the arc instead of really working the motion aspects of the offense which requires players to move without the ball. This is why Painter can be heard yelling MOVE when on the offensive end. The Iowa game just highlighted that issue because shots weren't falling and that led to some transition points for Iowa.

Purdue's offensive struggles end when Davis and Edwards understand that they need to move without the ball on the opposite side of the ball. Mathias is really the best at continuing to move without the ball and is why he has been playing more and more as he has relaxed in to his role. The stagnant issues can also be relayed, to a lesser extent to KS and Cline. I really thought KS should have played most of the second half after his showing the first half against Iowa...but he seemed to get lost when Painter lost his TO's and struggled with a strong substitution pattern.

 

[FleeTheScene]

Good point. Defensively he hands down is effective, but offensively I see what you mean.

It's a trade off right, if he works on offense then his defense could suffer. Question is IF that is the case, is that an acceptable thing to have? That is more of a thought provoking rhetorical question than anything else.

Well I don't think any lineup we have out there is gonna have Ray running off screens looking to get an open window to get a shot off like Kendall or Dakota. Ray just need to be smart and not force drives into his defender, and if he beats his man and draws help he needs to pass it to the open man. In the situation that he's the open man, he needs to be confident and take the shot. He's out there for his defense and as long as that's effective and he's not a liability on offense everything is working according to plan. Just have to keep defenses honest.

 

[BoilerDeac]

This. Again. Vince needs to be playing the 4, or him and Biggie on the court at the same time, unless Biggie is playing the 5, should be kept to a minimum.

I have my doubts that Painter is aware of this, but let's hope he makes the change.

 

[TC4THREE]

Could not agree more. Seems plain as day to me but I think many, Painter included, might be wearing blinders when it comes to Swanigan.

 

[FleeTheScene]

I tend to agree more with Neubert on this. We have committed to go against the grain of what teams are doing these days and it should be to our advantage when we execute. Most teams are going to small ball and using stretch 5s to open things up, we went for size and strength. When teams arch up a small guy against Swanigan we should be able to punish them on offense, we haven't found a way to make that happen on a consistent basis. I don't think it's impossible, I think it's probable actually, we're not playing against the Warriors, we're playing against college kids who make mistakes, if we execute I'd take our strategy over small ball.

 

[BoilerDeac]

I tend to agree more with Neubert on this. We have committed to go against the grain of what teams are doing these days and it should be to our advantage when we execute. Most teams are going to small ball and using stretch 5s to open things up, we went for size and strength. When teams arch up a small guy against Swanigan we should be able to punish them on offense, we haven't found a way to make that happen on a consistent basis. I don't think it's impossible, I think it's probable actually, we're not playing against the Warriors, we're playing against college kids who make mistakes, if we execute I'd take our strategy over small ball.

That's definitely a fair point, but it seems as if there isn't enough space down low to have two back to the basket players operate. At this point, that's what Swanigan is, a back to the basket guy.

I know CS can make an open three and has some skills, but he's most effective when his man is on his back, and with Hammons/Haas already doing that, Caleb is going to have to show a lot more to show that he can be an effective 4 man.

REALLY, I guess my issue is that even when it's clear that our "going big" lineup isn't working, Painter doesn't make an adjustment, and the poor play continues.

 

[Dryfly88]

That's definitely a fair point, but it seems as if there isn't enough space down low to have two back to the basket players operate. At this point, that's what Swanigan is, a back to the basket guy.

I know CS can make an open three and has some skills, but he's most effective when his man is on his back, and with Hammons/Haas already doing that, Caleb is going to have to show a lot more to show that he can be an effective 4 man.

REALLY, I guess my issue is that even when it's clear that our "going big" lineup isn't working, Painter doesn't make an adjustment, and the poor play continues.

I agree that Caleb has a lot more to prove in the #4 position. I know that is why he came to PU and I'm sure CMP feels pressure to play him there, but he is struggling. He is slow footed and turns the ball over too much. I believe he is going to be a very good college player but I'm not convinced it will be as a #4. I understand that is where he wants to play because if he has any future in the NBA it won't be as a #5, but that doesn't mean that is in the best interest of this team.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

Caleb is going to have to show a lot more to show that he can be an effective 4 man.
REALLY, I guess my issue is that even when it's clear that our "going big" lineup isn't working, Painter doesn't make an adjustment, and the poor play continues.

Caleb is super effective. In 7 out of the last 9 games he's shot 45% or higher. Wish we could get that effectiveness out of some other guys...

 

[Dryfly88]

Caleb is super effective. In 7 out of the last 9 games he's shot 45% or higher. Wish we could get that effectiveness out of some other guys...

I think his turnovers and poor defense against quicker players is more of a problem. His shooting % is not one of the bigger issues with him I agree.

 

[TC4THREE]

Caleb is super effective. In 7 out of the last 9 games he's shot 45% or higher. Wish we could get that effectiveness out of some other guys...

He averages more than 3 turnovers a game and struggles to guard anyone off the dribble. Glad we don't get that from most other guys.

 

[BoilerDeac]

I agree that Caleb has a lot more to prove in the #4 position. I know that is why he came to PU and I'm sure CMP feels pressure to play him there, but he is struggling. He is slow footed and turns the ball over too much. I believe he is going to be a very good college player but I'm not convinced it will be as a #4. I understand that is where he wants to play because if he has any future in the NBA it won't be as a #5, but that doesn't mean that is in the best interest of this team.

Exactly.

 

[Summy1]

I too like to see Edwards get more minutes at the 4 spot. It wont hurt to have Biggie on the bench some. And I agree that cutting down the rotation could be a good thing. If a player is hot then leave them in the game. Painter tends to sub a lot.

 

[FirstDownB]

I tend to agree more with Neubert on this. We have committed to go against the grain of what teams are doing these days and it should be to our advantage when we execute. Most teams are going to small ball and using stretch 5s to open things up, we went for size and strength. When teams arch up a small guy against Swanigan we should be able to punish them on offense, we haven't found a way to make that happen on a consistent basis. I don't think it's impossible, I think it's probable actually, we're not playing against the Warriors, we're playing against college kids who make mistakes, if we execute I'd take our strategy over small ball.

Problem is on a night when it's not working, it is the definition of insanity to keep trying the same thing and expecting different results. Painter is not going to change bread and butter mid season nor should he. However, we need a bit more of change up to mix in when the opponent is sitting on our fastball.

 

[FleeTheScene]

Problem is on a night when it's not working, it is the definition of insanity to keep trying the same thing and expecting different results. Painter is not going to change bread and butter mid season nor should he. However, we need a bit more of change up to mix in when the opponent is sitting on our fastball.

Eh I might argue that it hasn't worked against a good team yet, not for a full game anyway. I think at this point we have to find a way to make it work with our current rotations. We need these guys to experience different defensive looks and we need painter to prepare them to handle those looks in game.

It would be easy to put Vince in for biggie when a team goes small but that negates our advantages and it gives the opposing team free reign to force us to adjust to whatever they want to do. Plus, due to fouls and other matchups, it might not always be possible. Who knows, I just think we've made our bed and now for better or worse we have to lie in it.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I agree that Caleb has a lot more to prove in the #4 position. I know that is why he came to PU and I'm sure CMP feels pressure to play him there, but he is struggling. He is slow footed and turns the ball over too much. I believe he is going to be a very good college player but I'm not convinced it will be as a #4. I understand that is where he wants to play because if he has any future in the NBA it won't be as a #5, but that doesn't mean that is in the best interest of this team.

Why don't we go high low more, with Hammons high and biggie low?

 

[BoilerFan#35]

Overall, VE has performed nicely in the SF/3 role, but I can't help but think he should still be playing the 4. Him at the 4 stretches defenses, and he can play well out of the high post if/when teams use a zone against Purdue.

Biggie's rebounding at the 4 position is a huge asset, but Vince is pretty good on the boards in his own right.

I like Edwards a lot, but his game isn't predicated on taking guys off the bounce from the perimeter...he doesn't excel at that. In a perfect world, he would be as effective at the SF position as he is as a PF, but I don't think that's the case.

Caleb clogs the paint and doesn't allow him to slash

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Caleb clogs the paint and doesn't allow him to slash

This is the major issue. In the motion offense, Caleb needs to be extended outside the paint more but he is floating down low WAY to much and clogging the lane for AJ and Haas. If Swanigan becomes part of the motion portion of the offense more by setting screens for the wings and then playing at the free throw line extended, it would do wonders. Biggies seems to float way to much in an offense that requires much more patience and discipline.

 

[toddbrewster]

Reading this is one of the reasons I wanted AJ at the 4 and Haas down low for a few minutes per half. However, I don't believe in knocking a kid, especially since I never could do the things Biggie can. Yes, having AJ at the 4 cuts his minutes, but he can observe how AJ plays it. The main thing is Biggie is still young and still learning and he does not need to be criticized by armchair coaches. I have played against other kids (under 30) who have all the talent in the world, but don't have the knowledge on how to use it. Thankfully this is what Matt is doing. Biggie is learning the game and making adjustments. We may lose a couple of games, because of it, BUT we should be ready during tournament time, which is when we will need him most. As I said in the beginning, Biggie is not a 1 and done player. Matt is bringing him along, so he will be ready at tournament time and just as important he and Haas will be a force for the next two years after. We have a real good team this year and I can definitely see being in the elite 8. We need to continue to praise the kids.