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Economics of bad football

BoilerStutz

Junior
Jul 14, 2006
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Indianapolis
Looks like Purdue had the largest decrease in college football attendance this year. I am afraid you are about to see the Purdue athletic department in real financial distress. I attended a basketball game a couple of weeks ago and much of the upper arena was empty. I realize there is lots of TV money to go around, but ticket sales still matter. Morgan's decision to focus on the minor sports may turn out to a very big deal.

College football attendance
 
Thats hard to believe given how bad 2013 was.

Morgan has said a couple times that this strategy would lead to more donations from the minor sports, and more money in the long run than if they just focused on FB and MBB. In fairness, I dont know if thats turned out to be true, but Im pretty skeptical.
 
Originally posted by boiler17:

Thats hard to believe given how bad 2013 was.

Morgan has said a couple times that this strategy would lead to more donations from the minor sports, and more money in the long run than if they just focused on FB and MBB. In fairness, I dont know if thats turned out to be true, but Im pretty skeptical.




2013 had decent season ticket sales as several were suckered in by the new era.

Also, better home schedule in 2013
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by nat100:

Originally posted by boiler17:


Thats hard to believe given how bad 2013 was.

Morgan has said a couple times that this strategy would lead to more donations from the minor sports, and more money in the long run than if they just focused on FB and MBB. In fairness, I dont know if thats turned out to be true, but Im pretty skeptical.




2013 had decent season ticket sales as several were suckered in by the new era.

Also, better home schedule in 2013

Posted from Rivals Mobile
yeah, I figured as much but 28% is such a huge dropoff.
 
Just wait until next year... Luckily tennis season ticket sales are up 50%: from 50 to 75.
 
If they bring shoop back, then under 30K average is possible. His offense is just unwatchable.

I would like to know what Burke's plan is to get people back into the stadium.
 
Burke's plan is to reduce the size of the stadium again.
 
Originally posted by Bruce1:
Burke's plan is to reduce the size of the stadium again.
Here is a rendering of his plans for Ross Ade

Perry_football_2.jpg
 
NOW THAT'S FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I needed a good chuckle this morning......................
 
How is it that every Podunk high school can afford lights at their football field but a B1G school can't? Does Purdue's new cricket field have lights?
 
High School stadiums know they need them for every game. Not that I agree with Burke's approach, but its apples to oranges.
 
Originally posted by nat100:



Originally posted by Bruce1:
Burke's plan is to reduce the size of the stadium again.
Here is a rendering of his plans for Ross Ade

ec
If Captain Morgan sticks around much longer, even that "stadium" will be less than half-full.

tight-fisted_ineptness_zps0ebf5b6b.jpg

This post was edited on 12/16 10:38 AM by Courthouse Carp
 
I dont even care about tight fisted anymore. He probably doesnt have any control over that. How about poorly organized and dismissive. He teases us with all the big picture action items, references dates in the future, and those dates come and go with nothing.

If he talks about something, you can be sure there we be no developments about whatever he said for the foreseeable future. When he does act, he just does it, and the first you are hearing is the result.
 
Re: Economics of bad management

Originally posted by boiler17:

I dont even care about tight fisted anymore. He probably doesnt have any control over that. How about poorly organized and dismissive. He teases us with all the big picture action items, references dates in the future, and those dates come and go with nothing.

If he talks about something, you can be sure there we be no developments about whatever he said for the foreseeable future. When he does act, he just does it, and the first you are hearing is the result.
You don't think that those three are interrelated? We can add a whole lot of shortsightedness, along with a healthy dose of unimaginative to that list. Other than that, I'm in complete agreement with you; after all, Captain Morgan did come to us with a ROAD MAP a few weeks ago... what a sinking ship needs with a road map is beyond me.


Mutiny_zps3624de75.jpg


Burke ought to be coming to us with the Yellow Pages, and then let his fingers do the walking.

yellow_pages_zps4b0b3bb9.jpg



Captain Morgan needs to call 1-800-RESOLVE
 
Re: Economics of bad management

Originally posted by Courthouse Carp:

Originally posted by boiler17:

I dont even care about tight fisted anymore. He probably doesnt have any control over that. How about poorly organized and dismissive. He teases us with all the big picture action items, references dates in the future, and those dates come and go with nothing.

If he talks about something, you can be sure there we be no developments about whatever he said for the foreseeable future. When he does act, he just does it, and the first you are hearing is the result.
You don't think that those three are interrelated? We can add a whole lot of shortsightedness, along with a healthy dose of unimaginative to that list. Other than that, I'm in complete agreement with you; after all, Captain Morgan did come to us with a ROAD MAP a few weeks ago... what a sinking ship needs with a road map is beyond me.


ec


Burke ought to be coming to us with the Yellow Pages, and then let his fingers do the walking.

ec
Thats silly. Yes, shortsightedness is perhaps the quality I see in him most. I keep hoping he will show me differently, because it is hardly fair/accurate to judge someone at a distance the way I do him.

He is little more than the kid next door that swears his mom is going to buy the coolest toy next week. Absorbs praise when its due, and deflects criticism as if things are outside of his control.

Why even say anything about the south endzone, relationship between athletic department, putting a front door on Ross Aide, etc. if nothing is going to happen along the timeline he vaugely infers?
 
Re: Economics of bad management

Originally posted by Courthouse Carp:
Originally posted by boiler17:

I dont even care about tight fisted anymore. He probably doesnt have any control over that. How about poorly organized and dismissive. He teases us with all the big picture action items, references dates in the future, and those dates come and go with nothing.

If he talks about something, you can be sure there we be no developments about whatever he said for the foreseeable future. When he does act, he just does it, and the first you are hearing is the result.
You don't think that those three are interrelated? We can add a whole lot of shortsightedness, along with a healthy dose of unimaginative to that list. Other than that, I'm in complete agreement with you; after all, Captain Morgan did come to us with a ROAD MAP a few weeks ago... what a sinking ship needs with a road map is beyond me.


ec


Burke ought to be coming to us with the Yellow Pages, and then let his fingers do the walking.

ec
Hilarius, except for one thing. Can you remove the image of Jack Mollenkopf...he doesn't belong on that ship of fools!
 
Brilliant idea New Pal! MB could partner with Cricket wireless to rename the stadium for a few $$ and it would feature the sounds of crickets before, during, and after games! All to promote the sponsor.
 
Well, high schools don't NEED them. They could play all their games at 8 am Saturday morning, or at 4 pm on tuesday afternoons, but they don't, for some reason.
 
Originally posted by New Pal Boiler:
Well, high schools don't NEED them. They could play all their games at 8 am Saturday morning, or at 4 pm on tuesday afternoons, but they don't, for some reason.


Fair enough.



Responding to another post, I don't think Burke's cheapness is interrelated with his shortsightedness and bad pr skills/dismissive attitude.

I think his higher ups are cheap, and handed him a university with severely neglected facilities when he walked in. So he had a lot to do, not much money to do it with, and[/I] he lacks the vision/overall IQ to execute the plan.
 
Congratulations, Morgan! We now lead the nation in something!

I am going to put the excuses in a hat and pull out the winner of the "excuse of the day." We have: 1. The economy is bad, every team is hurting. 2. We did not have ND or OSU on the schedule so opposing fans can fill our stadium. 3. We have two NFL teams in a 120 mile radius and those people that go to NFL games are not coming to games. 4. We have three other Division 1 teams in our state, plus several more within a 3 hour drive, lot of competition in our market. 5. This fall there were a lot of blockbuster movies out and people were enjoying those. 6. People can watch our exciting product from the comforts of their home or dorm room and make their own nachos.

But am I worried? Of course not. We have a "Road Map" to save us.

Reality check Morgan, you did not take care of football for years. You had the reactionary press box upgrades thanks to the success of Mr. Drew Brees then quit spending on football. The locker room is the same basic thing that Chris Dishman paid for in 1998. The weight room is the same thing it was when Mollenkpf was built in the early 90s. Last year when I peaked in on a home game it had mirrors that were broken by the squat racks. Noblesville HS has one that is 20 times nicer. But Mr. Reaction did not even hire an athletic department strength supervisor until 4-5 years ago.

Whoever the next AD is, my hope is that they will take care of the big 2 sports. I don't dislike girls soccer or baseball or cross country, but reality is when football and men's basketball are humming along, the whole department will reap the benefits. They will be successful = More money. More donors. Recruits get to see an electric atmosphere and will want to come here in ALL sports. When football wins, we all win. The communist Athletic Department where everyone gets their share regardless of what they put in does not work.
 
If you watch South Park, Morgan is like the "Underpants Gnomes"

They stole underpants as part 1, part 2 was blank as there was no plan what to do with them, part 3 was profit.

What we know about the Road Map:

Phase 1: We are going to improve the whole Purdue Athletic Department

Phase 2: ??????

Phase 3: We will be 25/85 or 85/15 or whatever his odd goal was



Underpants Gnomes
 
Re: Congratulations, Morgan! We now lead the nation in something!

Originally posted by RegionWarrior101:
I am going to put the excuses in a hat and pull out the winner of the "excuse of the day." We have: 1. The economy is bad, every team is hurting. 2. We did not have ND or OSU on the schedule so opposing fans can fill our stadium. 3. We have two NFL teams in a 120 mile radius and those people that go to NFL games are not coming to games. 4. We have three other Division 1 teams in our state, plus several more within a 3 hour drive, lot of competition in our market. 5. This fall there were a lot of blockbuster movies out and people were enjoying those. 6. People can watch our exciting product from the comforts of their home or dorm room and make their own nachos.

But am I worried? Of course not. We have a "Road Map" to save us.

Reality check Morgan, you did not take care of football for years. You had the reactionary press box upgrades thanks to the success of Mr. Drew Brees then quit spending on football. The locker room is the same basic thing that Chris Dishman paid for in 1998. The weight room is the same thing it was when Mollenkpf was built in the early 90s. Last year when I peaked in on a home game it had mirrors that were broken by the squat racks. Noblesville HS has one that is 20 times nicer. But Mr. Reaction did not even hire an athletic department strength supervisor until 4-5 years ago.

Whoever the next AD is, my hope is that they will take care of the big 2 sports. I don't dislike girls soccer or baseball or cross country, but reality is when football and men's basketball are humming along, the whole department will reap the benefits. They will be successful = More money. More donors. Recruits get to see an electric atmosphere and will want to come here in ALL sports. When football wins, we all win. The communist Athletic Department where everyone gets their share regardless of what they put in does not work.
This has bothered me for years.
 
People need to get off this "Morgan chooses to focus on minor sports".

Purdue does not focus on minor sports significantly more than any other similar caliber athletic department.

What I do NOT disagree with is that Morgan has been "on the cheap" with many things related to football and men's basketball. But I don't think whether those Olympic sport projects were there or not, it would have been any different for FB/MBB.

Morgan was able to do a coaching transition with Keady's blessing/steering that worked out pretty well for him. You can get an up and coming coach who went to Purdue, had great name recognition by fans, was coached by Keady and wanted to coach at his alma mater - to come in and sit out for a year and then become a coach for a relatively modest amount.

Then Burke tried to do the same thing with Tiller - except Tiller didn't steer towards Hope, Hope didn't go to Purdue, had a little name recognition but certainly not anything close to a connection like Painter, Hope wasn't "coached by" Tiller (although to be fair he worked with him before), etc. It was a complete bust.

Then Painter is coach for a bit, doesn't have what he needs and is entangled in these rules (which apply across the board to sports), etc. and literally has to threaten to leave Purdue in order for the AD to step up.

Then for football, you have to fire a coach and spend competitive money on a new coach - and Hazell wasn't some bust hire, but I don't think he was what we needed when he was hired (I was pretty "meh" on the hire). But again, you're trying to hire a new coach who knows resources hadn't been there - but had to rely on promises, so the fact that the resources weren't there before probably hurt us on some coaching candidates.

So overall, I agree that Burke is quite reactive vs. proactive. And I think he's made a lot of poor decisions. People defend his actions saying there wasn't the money or what not - when both the football and men's basketball situations were magically solved with some extra effort in a relatively short amount of time. So yes, the money and resources are there - it's not that they ARE NOT there because of Olympic sports.

I think Burke has some tremendous positives to his role as athletic director. It is not an easy job by any means and I think he's done some great things and there's always that "better be careful what you wish for" when it comes to pushing someone out or complaining about someone. And while this also falls on his shoulders, I think part of Purdue's problem more-so is the administration that has stayed the same. It's great to have long-standing staff members, but only if they're doing a tremendous job and set-up to do a tremendous job.

For example, Nancy Cross has been a topic of conversation on here. She's a Boilermaker through and through and a nice person in general. Whether she has the skill set to be overseeing fundraising at Purdue - I don't know. However, look at what she's responsible for. She's the senior women's administrator (which is typically 1 job in its own), she oversees fundraising, AND she oversees 5 sports! That's WAY too much responsibility for 1 person to adequately do those jobs.

However, it's also weird because at most institutions, the person who oversees fundraising also oversees other external factors like tickets and marketing. At the end of the day, those 3 intertwine significantly. That's not how it's set up at Purdue.
 
Originally posted by lbodel:
People need to get off this "Morgan chooses to focus on minor sports".

Purdue does not focus on minor sports significantly more than any other similar caliber athletic department.


What I do NOT disagree with is that Morgan has been "on the cheap" with many things related to football and men's basketball. But I don't think whether those Olympic sport projects were there or not, it would have been any different for FB/MBB.

Morgan was able to do a coaching transition with Keady's blessing/steering that worked out pretty well for him. You can get an up and coming coach who went to Purdue, had great name recognition by fans, was coached by Keady and wanted to coach at his alma mater - to come in and sit out for a year and then become a coach for a relatively modest amount.

Then Burke tried to do the same thing with Tiller - except Tiller didn't steer towards Hope, Hope didn't go to Purdue, had a little name recognition but certainly not anything close to a connection like Painter, Hope wasn't "coached by" Tiller (although to be fair he worked with him before), etc. It was a complete bust.

Then Painter is coach for a bit, doesn't have what he needs and is entangled in these rules (which apply across the board to sports), etc. and literally has to threaten to leave Purdue in order for the AD to step up.

Then for football, you have to fire a coach and spend competitive money on a new coach - and Hazell wasn't some bust hire, but I don't think he was what we needed when he was hired (I was pretty "meh" on the hire). But again, you're trying to hire a new coach who knows resources hadn't been there - but had to rely on promises, so the fact that the resources weren't there before probably hurt us on some coaching candidates.

So overall, I agree that Burke is quite reactive vs. proactive. And I think he's made a lot of poor decisions. People defend his actions saying there wasn't the money or what not - when both the football and men's basketball situations were magically solved with some extra effort in a relatively short amount of time. So yes, the money and resources are there - it's not that they ARE NOT there because of Olympic sports.

I think Burke has some tremendous positives to his role as athletic director. It is not an easy job by any means and I think he's done some great things and there's always that "better be careful what you wish for" when it comes to pushing someone out or complaining about someone. And while this also falls on his shoulders, I think part of Purdue's problem more-so is the administration that has stayed the same. It's great to have long-standing staff members, but only if they're doing a tremendous job and set-up to do a tremendous job.

For example, Nancy Cross has been a topic of conversation on here. She's a Boilermaker through and through and a nice person in general. Whether she has the skill set to be overseeing fundraising at Purdue - I don't know. However, look at what she's responsible for. She's the senior women's administrator (which is typically 1 job in its own), she oversees fundraising, AND she oversees 5 sports! That's WAY too much responsibility for 1 person to adequately do those jobs.

However, it's also weird because at most institutions, the person who oversees fundraising also oversees other external factors like tickets and marketing. At the end of the day, those 3 intertwine significantly. That's not how it's set up at Purdue.
Morgan has said point blank that he is focusing more on olympic sports rather than mbb and fb because in the long run, it will produce more professional/wealthy atheletes and lead to more donations. He then criticised fans for not seeing the big picture, in a comment that came off as 'get off my back' and then said football would get additional video boards and other ambiguous amentities that would make Ross Aide 'one of the premeir places in the country to watch a game'. Obviously, those never came about.

This was during several interviews around 2006-2008. I cant prove it, so believe that however much you want.

I think Morgan deserves credit for Tiller, Hope, and Hazell, but Painter was gift wrapped to him.
 
I think you misunderstood lbodel's post. What he meant was that while Purdue spent more on minor sports than it had in the past, it wasnt spending any more than other schools, with similar sized athletic departments.

Now we have to play catch up. And as any purdue aviation student will tell you, It requires a lot more fuel to get from 35,000 feet down to 10,000 feet, and then back up to 35,000 feet, than it would to keep it at 35,000 feet the entire time.
 
Originally posted by New Pal Boiler:
I think you misunderstood lbodel's post. What he meant was that while Purdue spent more on minor sports than it had in the past, it wasnt spending any more than other schools, with similar sized athletic departments.

Now we have to play catch up. And as any purdue aviation student will tell you, It requires a lot more fuel to get from 35,000 feet down to 10,000 feet, and then back up to 35,000 feet, than it would to keep it at 35,000 feet the entire time.
Perhaps, but I dont think so. Lbodel says:

So yes, the money and resources are there - it's not that they ARE NOT there because of Olympic sports.

When in fact, this was Morgans stated goal that he presented as a means of producing more revenue.

I think Morgan thought ticket sales would be revenue neutral enough to keep most of the money coming in.
 
While I think some of the things mentioned are factual and not doubting you, I think they were said in a more vague/come to your own conclusions way. For example, if someone asked why are Olympic sports so important and one of his listed reasons was they produce wealthier alums as one of multiple reasons. No athletic director is going to say point blank "I am focusing on Olympic Sports more than Football because they produce wealthier alums."

But I do understand what you mean about his get off my back type of comments. He gets defensive quickly.
 
Originally posted by lbodel:
While I think some of the things mentioned are factual and not doubting you, I think they were said in a more vague/come to your own conclusions way. For example, if someone asked why are Olympic sports so important and one of his listed reasons was they produce wealthier alums as one of multiple reasons. No athletic director is going to say point blank "I am focusing on Olympic Sports more than Football because they produce wealthier alums."

But I do understand what you mean about his get off my back type of comments. He gets defensive quickly.
Generally agree. Non defensively, I do clearly remember him saying that focusing on non-revenue sports would net the department more money in the long run and that fans were dumb for questioning his staff pay and facilities. That said, that was 8 ish years ago and memory isnt perfect. It was right when I started getting really interested in what his job must be like, didnt know I would come to think he sucks, so I sort of accepted what he said even though it felt wrong.

Plus if you hold up things he says to things he actually does like moving forward with projects by the date he tells people, dude only really means 30% of what he says anyway.
 
The B1G TV money was part of what caused the slump in football IMO and to a lesser extent basketball. While it was great to start getting that kind of money it gave Burke the ability to focus on the non-revenue sports because he knew win, lose or draw in football Purdue would still be getting the TV money so his focus on attendance (which is largely a product of winning) and marketing the football program wavered. The revenue stream for the athletic dept was less dependent on good football and basketball products so maybe he didn't focus on them as much.

His reactionary style, and I believe a little bit of his ego, has also hurt the program. He went cheap on Hope and everyone complained. He then went the opposite direction with Hazell and handcuffed Purdue to him with a bad contract. He's owed 8.8 million if he's fired today and 6.6 million if he's fired after next year. Those are huge buyouts. I think Burke's ego played a part, or I suppose self preservation, in the contract because it was widely known he had already missed on Butch Jones (you don't fly a guy into town in the school's private jet to tell him your thinking about offering him the job). If he missed on Hazell people would have been rumbling that he couldn't get any of his coaching targets so he lost his composure and offered Hazell a deal he couldn't turn down. His buyouts are 2.2 million for every year remaining on the contract (6 years). So he get's everything except performance bonuses if he's fired.

I don't really have a problem with the 2.2 million a year but guaranteeing the enter contract instead of something like 50 or even 75 percent of the remaining amount was bad business. I can't imagine that Hazell was such a hot name after one good season at Kent State that he would have turned down more than 2 million a year with half the contract guaranteed but I think fear of looking unable to get someone hired caused him to lose his cool in the negotiations.

He lowballed the football program with Hope and over corrected with Hazell.
 
Originally posted by BoilerGrad02:

The B1G TV money was part of what caused the slump in football IMO and to a lesser extent basketball. While it was great to start getting that kind of money it gave Burke the ability to focus on the non-revenue sports because he knew win, lose or draw in football Purdue would still be getting the TV money so his focus on attendance (which is largely a product of winning) and marketing the football program wavered. The revenue stream for the athletic dept was less dependent on good football and basketball products so maybe he didn't focus on them as much.

His reactionary style, and I believe a little bit of his ego, has also hurt the program. He went cheap on Hope and everyone complained. He then went the opposite direction with Hazell and handcuffed Purdue to him with a bad contract. He's owed 8.8 million if he's fired today and 6.6 million if he's fired after next year. Those are huge buyouts. I think Burke's ego played a part, or I suppose self preservation, in the contract because it was widely known he had already missed on Butch Jones (you don't fly a guy into town in the school's private jet to tell him your thinking about offering him the job). If he missed on Hazell people would have been rumbling that he couldn't get any of his coaching targets so he lost his composure and offered Hazell a deal he couldn't turn down. His buyouts are 2.2 million for every year remaining on the contract (6 years). So he get's everything except performance bonuses if he's fired.

I don't really have a problem with the 2.2 million a year but guaranteeing the enter contract instead of something like 50 or even 75 percent of the remaining amount was bad business. I can't imagine that Hazell was such a hot name after one good season at Kent State that he would have turned down more than 2 million a year with half the contract guaranteed but I think fear of looking unable to get someone hired caused him to lose his cool in the negotiations.

He lowballed the football program with Hope and over corrected with Hazell.
Not arguing, but the problem there is having an AD willing to use it like a welfare check. I think the network was fantastic and really glad we did it first.

Also agree his ego gets in the way. When he signed Hazell, the language he used when rolling out those fees was borderline aggressive "Okay, I bought something expensive, now you guys HAVE to pay for it". Its an odd paradigm to me that he engages the fanbase at all with details when he seems to not enjoy it nor does he follow up on dates, or use it as an opportunity to raise funds. Why tell us you are getting south endzone proposals in early December if the fan isnt going to see anything about it? Those pressers are of seemingly no use at all.

Why not come up with multiple versions youre happy with and let the fanbase vote with dollars? Or shut your mouth so we arent constantly whining that hes not doing what he says he will do.
 
Well any purdue Civil engineer will tell you its cheaper to keep your Great Roads in great condition and upgrade your good roads to great roads then worry about your poor roads once you have all other roads great. The issue was the athletic department dropped the ball on its great road (tiller era football) and later (painter success/losing his assist coaches that recruited well) they turned to poor roads. Now we have a shitty interstate but our 500 N is one of the best country roads in the country.
 
Now if only our Morgan was as bad ass as that Captain guy maybe some ass kicking and house cleaning would happen!
 
boiler17 I thinnk the statement you made about your AD not having control over athletic spending is right on. Your president, Mitch Daniels is famous for his anti public education institutions, and I think itt might be fair to say that he is cutting back the purse strings when it comes to the athleticc program, in particular your major sports. He has a history for not really caring aobut athletics, and especially minority dominated sports, and he is all about research and development for the scholl, not the students or athletics. I think you will see it get worse as long as Daniels is there
 
baseball, since Purdue's athletic Dept. has historically run in the black, I am not quite sure how your contention that Daniels will cut back on the purse strings makes a great deal of sense. If anything, the complaint here is that the Athletic Dept. is being bled by the universir]ty from the aspect of cash flow.

Burke is being criticized by being too accommodating in sending cash to the university and non-revenue sports and underinvesting in the cash cows.
 
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