No, it isn't, and no I don't agree with everything he said, and no he's not really a "lefty."
Does Trump Want to Dismantle the International System?
- Thread starter SDBoiler1
- Start date
Ah, so your basic argument is that we should go back to factories like we had in the 1950s, never mind the fact that automation has made many of those low-wage, high-reliability jobs obsolete, which is part of the reason for wage stagnation in the first place.
I also understand the time value of money, whatever that has to do with anything. Whenever you're ready to make a cogent argument, please, feel free. What you just posted has little to do with anything remotely applicable to macroeconomics, which isn't the same as "business".
I'd still just love to hear you educate me on the military, especially the Navy, and the SCS. I mean, you said I was ignorant and uninformed on that, so please, inform me.
I don't even know what "I can't find a website" means. I find this one all the time. Seems like you're just mad, bro.
Really? Then why does Mexico want the jobs? GM, Fender, Coca Cola...Seems like there's a lot of stuff being made there by people. Economics is a big part of business. That's why they make you take the classes, but you wouldn't know that. As for the SCS, we have 5 active duty carriers with 5 more under repair, with bases in South Korea, Japan, and a bunch of little islands no one knows about. China has zero carriers and in fact has never made one! What do you think China is going to do to the Navy in the SCS? We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, because their little boats are only as good as their air cover, which just like their boats, are Russian knockoffs. So tell me how they are going to dominate our Navy? Here's something you probably don't know. Most of China's oil and grain arrives by sea, how quickly do you think they will last without it? Our industrial complex is far superior and mature. We can crank out multiple carriers per year if needed. China can't produce 1 a year (and they still have yet to produce anything that floats). All they have are destroyers they run around and intimidate people with. Easy targets for subs and aircraft. Our Navy and Air Force are 30 years ahead of them. So tell me how we can't do anything in the SCS, bro?
The problem with these types is the lib licker mentality of not knowing anything about of which they speak. Obama has had drones send hellfire missiles to slaughter thousands of people in the middle east to kill what he calls terrorists, those actually in opposition to terrorists. He slaughtered Syrian and Iraqi military so ISIS could have no opposition and allowed ISIS to freely capture much of the territory. He murdered women, children, families, as collateral damage in some cases to kill foreign journalists. That is why traitor Obama and the Queen of England were so angry when Russia stepped in and took out much of ISIS. Then the little punk CNN and their witches couldn't sit there and deny who armed ISIS and allowed them to grow. Russia embarrassed these people on the world stage and totally destroyed the credibility of Obama and his hordes of murdering witches. Hillary and Obama created ISIS, its just another name of Al Qaeda. They just carry on the next phase of the the plot to further break down the United States through fear and staged organized attack to conduit America over to foreign control until it no longer exists at all except by name only. Obama has on hundreds of instances ordered random missile attacks on a target with full knowledge of the bystanders he would kill in ordering the hit. He did it as women, boys, children had their heads blown off. He did it without even an inkling of remorse. Only, he didn't hit terrorists. Do these Obama voter types understand the magnitude of that? Trump explained his comments many times. He, like the Russians of all people, wants to target ISIS, the sleeper army of the International Socialist Party (extension of the Nazi party running things today).
Do these people know that the other day dogs sniffed hellfire missiles being sent from Lebanon on their way to Portland? Do they think a bunch of people wearing rags made those in a cave? Only America manufactures those. That is an exclusively US military weapon of the highest caliber. That was not supposed to be found. Can you imagine what Americas don't know right now about the danger that surrounds the country when the border is wide open, the government is flying terrorists into the country on military aircraft smuggling them in? The news actually backpedaled that they were dummy missiles treating Americans like pure scum morons. ISIS was armed by Hillary Clinton. Lets clear that up. Obama has repeatedly went on TV saying they won't take out ISIS oil because it will contaminate the climate. That is who your leader is. The Illuminati attack on the United States models the Trojan War. They brought the sleeper army inside the border and are waiting to attack and the State Department is passing arms to those people through the black market as they smuggle them into the country. Then Obama sets his campaign to disarm the citizens of the country at the same time. HE arms them with hellfire missiles and wants your pistols. That is how evil these people are. That is the unsurmountable reality Americans are faced with today. Not voting for Trump is absolute suicide.
Trump is the antithesis to this Illuminati. He is going to end ISIS, take down the CFR British Agents inside the US government who are infiltrators working for an international foreign intelligence operation aimed at taking down the United States. Trump and Ron Paul before him have exposed TO THE WORLD what happens when anyone who is not a British Agent attempts to run for office. Both sides and all media outlets attack Trump at once. When the entire Republican and Democratic party attack the same person running for office you know it can only mean 1 thing. The US government is filled with total impostors. You people laughed when people like me came in here years ago saying secret societies run the American government. Now people that are National Security Council level like Newt Gingrich go ON TV and say it word for word. Do you understand that? When Newt goes on TV and says the reason the government is coming after Trump because he is not an Illuminati, that basically means that all these liberal sloppy mouths got their faces slapped retard licker styled. I want to know what the fat bald ugly face smug professors who said none of this exist have to say about it. The stupid punks. Because it is their laughing ignorantly and stupidly laughing this off in the classroom that punk attitude that got all of us in the danger we are in now. This lib licker ignorance. You ever seen the movie RED DAWN? Maybe you need to watch it VERY closely.
ON VIDEO
Do these people know that the other day dogs sniffed hellfire missiles being sent from Lebanon on their way to Portland? Do they think a bunch of people wearing rags made those in a cave? Only America manufactures those. That is an exclusively US military weapon of the highest caliber. That was not supposed to be found. Can you imagine what Americas don't know right now about the danger that surrounds the country when the border is wide open, the government is flying terrorists into the country on military aircraft smuggling them in? The news actually backpedaled that they were dummy missiles treating Americans like pure scum morons. ISIS was armed by Hillary Clinton. Lets clear that up. Obama has repeatedly went on TV saying they won't take out ISIS oil because it will contaminate the climate. That is who your leader is. The Illuminati attack on the United States models the Trojan War. They brought the sleeper army inside the border and are waiting to attack and the State Department is passing arms to those people through the black market as they smuggle them into the country. Then Obama sets his campaign to disarm the citizens of the country at the same time. HE arms them with hellfire missiles and wants your pistols. That is how evil these people are. That is the unsurmountable reality Americans are faced with today. Not voting for Trump is absolute suicide.
Trump is the antithesis to this Illuminati. He is going to end ISIS, take down the CFR British Agents inside the US government who are infiltrators working for an international foreign intelligence operation aimed at taking down the United States. Trump and Ron Paul before him have exposed TO THE WORLD what happens when anyone who is not a British Agent attempts to run for office. Both sides and all media outlets attack Trump at once. When the entire Republican and Democratic party attack the same person running for office you know it can only mean 1 thing. The US government is filled with total impostors. You people laughed when people like me came in here years ago saying secret societies run the American government. Now people that are National Security Council level like Newt Gingrich go ON TV and say it word for word. Do you understand that? When Newt goes on TV and says the reason the government is coming after Trump because he is not an Illuminati, that basically means that all these liberal sloppy mouths got their faces slapped retard licker styled. I want to know what the fat bald ugly face smug professors who said none of this exist have to say about it. The stupid punks. Because it is their laughing ignorantly and stupidly laughing this off in the classroom that punk attitude that got all of us in the danger we are in now. This lib licker ignorance. You ever seen the movie RED DAWN? Maybe you need to watch it VERY closely.
ON VIDEO
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China has a carrier. China is in the process of constructing their second carrier. The US Navy recently sent officers to see the ship and discuss carrier operations with the Chinese.
http://swampland.time.com/2014/01/20/china-doubling-its-aircraft-carrier-fleet/
We cannot crank out multiple carriers per year. The GERALD FORD has been under construction since 2005. It is due to commission later this year. The legacy Nimitz-class aircraft carriers take, on average, five years to build. Right now, we can't get carriers out of overhaul (major maintenance periods) in less than eight months, let alone building a brand new one. We have no other designs to "churn out" at this point.
Naval power is not determined by the presence or absence of aircraft carriers. China's ability to cover everything west of the Marianas with a combination of shipboard, submarine, and coastal anti-ship cruise missiles will make it very difficult and dangerous for the United States to create a CVN presence in the SCS in the event of a shooting war. In fact, it is unlikely the US would be able to get a CVN within range of mainland China or Taiwan in the event of conflict in SCS or Taiwan.
China possesses the ability to track our emissions anywhere in the world. This renders the Aegis weapons system we rely on to protect the CVN mostly useless, and as mentioned above, their capacity to saturate our defenses - if we're able to turn them on in the first place - by striking from 360 is something we can't combat right now.
China possesses skywave radar technology which allows them early warning of any aircraft, as well as the ability to detect aircraft operations, as far out as the international dateline. That means any aircraft launched from Guam, Japan, or "any of those little islands nobody knows about" (except me because I've been to a lot of those little islands nobody knows about) will be detected and able to be countered long before it becomes a threat.
China's ability to out-gun our surface combatants in a shooting war is well-known. Our ASCM (anti-ship cruise missile) capability has remained stagnant since the 1980s. The HARPOON missile, while reliable, possesses a range in the 80nm window. Meanwhile, China possesses a number of active and semi-active missiles with ranges out to 400 miles. Some of those weapons can be fired from diesel submarines, which are incredibly difficult to locate because they spend the majority of their combat time operating on battery which makes them exceedingly difficult to detect except for the couple of hours every four days they come to the surface to change out their air.
That means our destroyers and cruisers are inside the missile envelope of Chinese destroyers, frigates, cruisers, and submarines from the time they are in the vicinity of the Phillippines, and are currently unable to fight back due to being out-ranged by their missiles.
This doesn't mention that nearly every one of China's high-end missiles are designed specifically to defeat Aegis as well as the Phalanx CIWS through both flight profile, high-G terminal maneuvers, and saturation doctrine. Our ships are plenty capable of defending themselves with soft-kill against one or two missiles, but against stream raids the Navy has long relied on Aegis doctrine to combat the missiles, but the missiles currently being fielded are designed to defeat that system by delaying detection range to the until they are already terminal, at which point it's highly likely that you will achieve enough leakers to destroy ships before they even get to the fight.
Our best bet for combatting all of this is our current submarine force. Go look at those numbers. Divide them in two for how many we have available at any given time. Then divide that number in two for the fact that we have two coasts splitting those resources. Essentially, we have an advantage under the surface of the ocean in terms of proficiency and technology, but they've got 10 submarines that operate in that water 100% of the time for every one of ours.
The Navy is working on various solutions to solve this problem, including upgrading the ASCM capability on our surface ships, including LCS, as well as re-invigorating the anti-ship Tomahawk program that was scrapped in the 1990s.
You mentioned five carriers active at any given time.
If China moves on Taiwan or the SCS, the US has one CVBG immediately available, that which is forward-deployed in Japan. There are presently five carriers stationed in the Pacific Fleet AOR. At any given time, up to three of those are deployable, so instead of five carriers, you're going to have one that can respond immediately, with perhaps two more available after the first few weeks of the conflict. As mentioned, once they are there, we are likely unable to establish any kind of air superiority in the area due to China's ability to deny access to the areas where the fight would be.
No one of any sense has considered carrier-vs.-carrier battle as the gold standard for Naval warfare since 1945. The CVN is there to provide presence and establish air superiority. The Carrier BG as a rule has operated in a permissive environment since WWII, and our Navy has not had to fight a near-peer competitor in more than 60 years for dominance in the air or on the sea. In that regard, our warfighting leadership is every bit as inexperienced as the Chinese.
Now, this isn't to paint the Chinese as 10-feet-tall. They're not. But many people would tell you that their Navy is near-peer, and certainly not 30 years behind ours. They have this fight in their backyard, and they have the ability to push us out of that backyard and right now there's not much we can do about it.
Now, ask me how I know all that.
You're way out of your element, quoting capabilities and making assumptions based on information you learned in world history class about how the Navy worked 80 years ago. Like Donald Trump, you don't even have a basic understanding of anything the Navy does, from operations to technology to procurement. It's Reason Number One why he has no business whatsoever being President of the United States. He thinks we're holding all of the cards at every table in the world.
We're not.
Regarding Mexico: their labor is less expensive and more abundant than ours, thus automation is not as prevalent there as it is here. Pretty easy answer.
they dont have a carrier! they have nothing they can put out to see. all they have is a demilled russian shell that isnt even sea worthy. prove me wrong! the chinese have never built shit. they dont know how to make them.
Apropos of nothing whatsoever, I believe gr8 is *in* the Navy. I suspect he knows more about this subject than you. You could consider quitting while you're only a little behind...
They do have a carrier. I linked it. I just talked to three people that were on it about two months ago. They've flown from it.
And that's the only thing you have to say about my response? Thought so. Take your ball and go home. You're in the wrong league.
Prove you wrong... OK:
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/...rrier-only-raises-tension-further-says-manila
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-officials-confirm-second-aircraft-carrier-2015-3
http://www.nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/confirmed-china-building-2nd-aircraft-carrier-12391
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...orges-ahead-with-second-aircraft-carrier.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...5/China-building-second-aircraft-carrier.html
http://news.yahoo.com/chinas-aircra...vbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDQjE3NDVfMQRzZWMDc3I-
I'll stop now.
They are not proficient and have very few pilots capable of flying from it. Their carrier is not a threat - to that point you are correct. But they have plenty of capability to keep us out of a fight in the SCS as I pointed out above. Navies go beyond CVs, and foreign countries have been planning how to combat carrier battle groups for about 80 years now, while we haven't moved forward.
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/...rrier-only-raises-tension-further-says-manila
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-officials-confirm-second-aircraft-carrier-2015-3
http://www.nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/confirmed-china-building-2nd-aircraft-carrier-12391
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...orges-ahead-with-second-aircraft-carrier.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...5/China-building-second-aircraft-carrier.html
http://news.yahoo.com/chinas-aircra...vbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDQjE3NDVfMQRzZWMDc3I-
I'll stop now.
They are not proficient and have very few pilots capable of flying from it. Their carrier is not a threat - to that point you are correct. But they have plenty of capability to keep us out of a fight in the SCS as I pointed out above. Navies go beyond CVs, and foreign countries have been planning how to combat carrier battle groups for about 80 years now, while we haven't moved forward.
Dude, save yourself the trouble. I'm on active duty as an officer in the Navy, been doing it for more than 16 years. I've done four deployments to the Western Pacific, and served on two aircraft carriers, a frigate, a PC, and a forward-deployed cruiser in Japan. I guarantee I know this information forwards, backwards and sideways. I had to spend about 10 minutes making sure I didn't post anything classified in the long post about China. Suffice to say, you won't debunk enough to make your points valid. Just save yourself the effort and embarrassment.
Most of them have plans that are executable. Deportation of all illegals isn't. Mexico paying for some 50-foot wall isn't. Bullying China in the SCS or at the trade table isn't. He's no better than Bernie "Free Beer For Everyone" Sanders in that regard.
He's worse. Bernie at least talks about how he plans to do it. I'm not suggesting what he plans is doable, but he does in fact have plans for much of it.
This is the last i'm talking about it. I do not care that you are active duty. I do not care that you are an officer. I work with officers, SES's, 4 star equivalent civilians, and have 20 positions supporting here and abroad. My freaking next door neighbor is a Navy Captain with his own command. A commissioned officer may be rare where you are but it's not here.
Undisputed fact - China has never built an aircraft carrier. They may say their building one. They may be trying to build one. They have never successfully built one. The only one they have is a demilled russian job from the 70s. That's it. The one they are planning to make isn't even nuclear and probably won't be ready until 2020, so yes, they ARE 30 years behind. There's a reason they are building little man made islands in the middle of the oceans and it's so they can refuel their MiGs on them because it turns out that ship building is hard and expensive.
We can make multiple carriers per year. Maybe not in this specific financial climate. I know what our manufacturing capabilities are. It is more than one a year. period. These reports are public knowledge, although paywalled. It has been more than one in the past and could easily be now. We have the greatest fleet production capabilities on the planet bar none. Companies like RAND and the Center for Naval Analysis constantly look at the state of the industrial complex. I can't even believe you argued this.
As far as ASCM goes that is pretty laughable. That's like saying they built a tank that shoots farther than ours. Who cares? It's moot when I can land a drone on their breakfast table. Deprecated technology overtaken by other areas.
Now let's talk about what you FAILED to address, which is our ability to stop oil and food from ever entering their waters, and 2, that at a moments notice, we could close our ports to their ships. You want to see a country fail overnight? Cut the supply off from the demand. That's business. That's econ. And really, this is where politics comes in. We've seen Hillary in action. She turned the ME into chaos and sparked an enormous humanitarian crisis in both the form of genocide and a refugee problem. Kerry has the US paying Iran billions to not abide by their agreement. So lets just keep this insanity train going. Bring in another bought and paid for idiot who won't even so much as admonish the Chinese over their trade practices or stand up for American labor. What's another 9T on the debt? Let's keep the gap between the rich and poor increasing. Lucky for you there are enough brain dead idiots in this country we will probably end up with Hillary. I hope it works out for you, because it sure won't for future generations.
Undisputed fact - China has never built an aircraft carrier. They may say their building one. They may be trying to build one. They have never successfully built one. The only one they have is a demilled russian job from the 70s. That's it. The one they are planning to make isn't even nuclear and probably won't be ready until 2020, so yes, they ARE 30 years behind. There's a reason they are building little man made islands in the middle of the oceans and it's so they can refuel their MiGs on them because it turns out that ship building is hard and expensive.
We can make multiple carriers per year. Maybe not in this specific financial climate. I know what our manufacturing capabilities are. It is more than one a year. period. These reports are public knowledge, although paywalled. It has been more than one in the past and could easily be now. We have the greatest fleet production capabilities on the planet bar none. Companies like RAND and the Center for Naval Analysis constantly look at the state of the industrial complex. I can't even believe you argued this.
As far as ASCM goes that is pretty laughable. That's like saying they built a tank that shoots farther than ours. Who cares? It's moot when I can land a drone on their breakfast table. Deprecated technology overtaken by other areas.
Now let's talk about what you FAILED to address, which is our ability to stop oil and food from ever entering their waters, and 2, that at a moments notice, we could close our ports to their ships. You want to see a country fail overnight? Cut the supply off from the demand. That's business. That's econ. And really, this is where politics comes in. We've seen Hillary in action. She turned the ME into chaos and sparked an enormous humanitarian crisis in both the form of genocide and a refugee problem. Kerry has the US paying Iran billions to not abide by their agreement. So lets just keep this insanity train going. Bring in another bought and paid for idiot who won't even so much as admonish the Chinese over their trade practices or stand up for American labor. What's another 9T on the debt? Let's keep the gap between the rich and poor increasing. Lucky for you there are enough brain dead idiots in this country we will probably end up with Hillary. I hope it works out for you, because it sure won't for future generations.
I believe Commander gr8 on this discussion.
And an fyi regarding aircraft superiority; the consultants hired by the Swiss to evaluate which state-of-the-art fighter to buy to upgrade/replace their aging aircraft recently recommended the Russian SU-35.
A plane designed in the 80s...seriously. That plane is no more state of the art then an F16. And it's still Russian! Not Chinese. They can't engineer them. You guys are ridiculous. I'm so done with this forum of ignorance.
Believe what you want. The Swiss use their aircraft strictly for defensive purposes. Their F18s are getting old. I'm only repeating what was published in a Swiss newspaper about a month ago. The article was in German so I didn't take time to read the entire thing but I read, speak and understand enough to know that was the consulting firm's recommendation.
The Swiss government has to put a referendum on the ballot to get approval to spend the big bucks it is going to take to replace some of their F18s. Their airforce chose the Grippen two years ago but the Swiss people rejected the appropriation. Seems the last go-round rumors flew that a chunk of the money was misappropriated and the Swiss people, unlike in the US, take government corruption quite seriously.
The Swiss government has to put a referendum on the ballot to get approval to spend the big bucks it is going to take to replace some of their F18s. Their airforce chose the Grippen two years ago but the Swiss people rejected the appropriation. Seems the last go-round rumors flew that a chunk of the money was misappropriated and the Swiss people, unlike in the US, take government corruption quite seriously.
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Obviously, I'm not going to win a debate with you, who just actually called yourself an expert because your neighbor is a Captain. Yeah, I'm a Commander myself, and my neighbors are a retired Commander and an active duty one-star Admiral. I was just on an Admiral's staff, maintain an SCI clearance and routinely receive threat briefings on the area.
Now, I've also actually served on two aircraft carriers, and no, we cannot get a carrier underway without tugs. They have no capability to control the bow of the ship without a tug. It would be physically impossible to get the ship underway without tugs (well, I'm sure you could, but you'd run aground, which kinda defeats the purpose).
As to the construction of the second carrier: yep, it's going on. That's all I have to say about that.
It takes roughly two years to construct and fuel the nuclear reactors in an aircraft carrier. For another thing, we lack the drydock facilities to support multiple construction as well as repair of our nuclear aircraft carriers. We can build one and refuel one at a time. We have two drydocks on each coast capable of repairing ships, for a total of four that can support the supercarriers. You do that math, holding more than one for construction, one for refueling (which is always going on) and one on each coast for shorter repair availabilities... yeah, it's got nothing to do with "this fiscal environment." No, we cannot construct multiple carriers year after year. You may be "aware" of our capabilities in that regard, but I actually work with them: I'm a nuclear engineer in the Navy.
All that said, I'm sure you're the expert here. I agree - this conversation is over.
Now, I've also actually served on two aircraft carriers, and no, we cannot get a carrier underway without tugs. They have no capability to control the bow of the ship without a tug. It would be physically impossible to get the ship underway without tugs (well, I'm sure you could, but you'd run aground, which kinda defeats the purpose).
As to the construction of the second carrier: yep, it's going on. That's all I have to say about that.
It takes roughly two years to construct and fuel the nuclear reactors in an aircraft carrier. For another thing, we lack the drydock facilities to support multiple construction as well as repair of our nuclear aircraft carriers. We can build one and refuel one at a time. We have two drydocks on each coast capable of repairing ships, for a total of four that can support the supercarriers. You do that math, holding more than one for construction, one for refueling (which is always going on) and one on each coast for shorter repair availabilities... yeah, it's got nothing to do with "this fiscal environment." No, we cannot construct multiple carriers year after year. You may be "aware" of our capabilities in that regard, but I actually work with them: I'm a nuclear engineer in the Navy.
All that said, I'm sure you're the expert here. I agree - this conversation is over.
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If anyone on this forum is ignorant about this stuff, I assure you: it's you.
So, your point is? Russia is selling them a 4.5 generation fighter, the rough equivalent of our F-18, which if I recall correctly is one of the 4th generation aircraft that are beating the new F-35 in training/testing. It's a pretty darn good aircraft, not an indication of some second rate air force.
They have engineered and tested not one but two fifth generation fighters.
You do that. And I'll be sure and post here when I'm actually patrolling the SCS again, this time on my LCS next year.
gr8,
Which version of the LCS are you on? What do you think of it?
And FYI, if I haven't said it before, thank you for your service and for your work in defending our nation and its interests.
You're welcome!
I'm on the Independence-class (the trimaran). I think it's a really, really cool platform. It's got some limitations, but we need small, presence-based combatants rather than 300 billion-dollar DDGs. If they strap a capable anti-ship cruise missile on LCS, it becomes a pretty big problem for the saturation-minded adversaries out there.
I'm impressed with the surface mission package. The others are still very much works in progress.
The program is a bit of a mess, particularly the testing and the mission package development. We got ahead of ourselves in procurement of these things, and in my opinion probably should've just selected one platform in the first place. McCain is right to push against procurement until we've rooted out the problems in the platform, and it looks like the Pentagon finally got that message earlier this year.
Like any other new major weapons platform, it's taking heat. Some deserved, some not. But in the end, the trimaran is a winner.
I'm glad to hear that. That ship is cool-looking. I was a bit surprised when the Navy decided to go with both platforms. This program is one that the media likes to pile on, along with the JSF, but they couldn't possibly know how difficult it is to design and launch equipment this advanced and complex and not expect there to be some teething pains. Could the contractors have avoided some problems? Probably. The services certainly doesn't help themselves by changing requirements so often and so significantly.
I'm glad the USA is providing this kind of capability to folks like yourself. Again, thanks for your service.
When they finally downselect to one seaframe, I expect it'll be the trimaran (Indy) class. I agree - should've done that from the start.
