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Daesh Destroys Mosul Library and 8,000 Rare Books With It

I haven't seen anyone sane "apologize" for what they have done and are doing. That's absurd.
 
I'll bite

who has "apologized" for ISIS?

Not Islam, which is obviously where you will end up going...but ISIS.
 
Re: I'll bite


Fair enough - but isn't ISIS following fundamental Islamic teachings? Isn't ISIS literally following what their holy Islamic texts tell them to do?
 
Why? Because they're non-Western, non-Christian, mostly non-White, they hate the West (especially America), and they represent the destruction of Western civilization. Aka, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Just like during the Cold War when the left ran interference for the murderous, tyrannical Communist regimes all over the globe. Islam just needs somebody as "cool" as Che so they can put that icon on a t-shirt and sell it to Useful Idiots in the West.

They want to send the world back to the time of Mohammed.

Yes, before it was corrupted by Western colonialism, the Industrial Revolution, the spread of (sexist, racist, homophobic, bigoted) Christianity, American power, and the dominant political, cultural, and economic power of the West (especially America). Sound familiar?
 
I don't know, but

wouldn't other Muslims actually be in the best position to answer that question?

They say no, that ISIS is not following Islamic teachings, that they are perverting those teachings.

I'm not a Muslim, you are not a Muslim, would seem like neither of us is qualified to make that determination, yes?

I'm not Christian...so I don't waste a lot of time telling Christians how to be Christians...that would be pretty arrogant of me, and while I have a better than average knowledge of things Christian, I'm still not going to have a knowledge of the Bible and what it means like someone who's a dedicated Christian, who reads it, and studies it regularly.
 
Re: I don't know, but

No, anyone can examine the texts and teachings of Islam to determine whether or not ISIS is following them. They are. Also, they are matching the behavior of the Perfect Muslim.

They say no, that ISIS is not following Islamic teachings, that they are perverting those teachings.

Yes, that's what they want you to think. You're an easy mark.
 
lol

right, of all the people in the world, GMM is qualified to fairly and accurately examine the texts and teachings of Islam.
 
Re: lol

I'm nowhere as near qualified as you are to defend Islam. Denial, obfuscation, false equivalency, etc. don't take a lot of skill or knowledge.
 
Re: I don't know, but

Originally posted by GMM:
No, anyone can examine the texts and teachings of Islam to determine whether or not ISIS is following them. They are. Also, they are matching the behavior of the Perfect Muslim.

They say no, that ISIS is not following Islamic teachings, that they are perverting those teachings.

Yes, that's what they want you to think. You're an easy mark.
Yep. It's all a ploy.
 
Re: I don't know, but

These are passages straight from the Koran. They do not seem ambiguous in any way, shape, or form, do they? Seems to me that ISIS is following these sayings pretty literally.



"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." (Sura 5, verse 51).



"And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away!" (Sura 9, verse 30).

"And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers." (Sura 2, verse 191).

"O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)." (Sura 9, verse 123).

"Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers (Jews, Christians and followers of other faiths) and has prepared for them a burning fire." (Sura 33, verse 64).
 
I can cite passages from the Bible

that talk, at least on the surface, in a way that is pro-slavery, pro-killing firstborn infants, etc, etc.

We know for a fact that even in the middle ages, Jews were treated better by Muslims than Christians because Muslims considered them (along with Christians) as "People of the Book" and as long as they paid the tax, they were left alone, unlike in Christian parts where they were persecuted for "killing Christ" and had pogroms against them.

So even back then they didn't appear to "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them." I have no idea the context of those passages, neither do you.

Heck, a central tenet of Islam is that Jesus will return to mark the start of the final judgment. Jesus is probably second only to Mohammed as a revered prophet to them.

You are doing the exact same thing people do to Christianity, pull some quotes out of context and present them as "clear and obvious."

"Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:
'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp
from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'
"The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand
of the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the
LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

"Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at
Jahaz. And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him,
and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that
time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining."

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword."

"For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy
people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth."
 
Re: I can cite passages from the Bible

I am glad you stated you are not well-versed in either Islam or Christianity. ISIS is taking the Koran quite literally and practicing what it says. ISIS followers are deranged lunatics.

The quotations you gave are straight from the Old Testament, I believe. You will not find quotations in the New Testament approaching anything like the Old Testament, and not like the quotations given from the Koran earlier. Yes, Revelations has some apocryphal verses, but they do not come close to saying what the Koran's say.

Christians believe Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies and made the majority of the Old Testament law obsolete. The Ten Commandments certainly were kept, for instance. Jesus preached a philosophy of love for others, including those who are your enemies. Jesus did not say to "kill the infidels wherever you find them".

Your attempt to equivocate ISIS and some followers of Christianity is just misguided. Throughout history, there have been people who tried to hijack or pervert a faith to further their aims. This is due to the sinful nature of mankind.
 
Re: I don't know, but

I think it's rather dangerous to take random quotes without any context from a historic text and portray it as modern day religion. That's the case for Christianity too. If you go back hundreds of years, a lot of religions can be portrayed as extreme. Heck, Christians have gone to war with other Christians over their beliefs - King Phillip of Spain and the Spanish Armada was primarily because he and the Catholic Church viewed Protestants as evil and viewed that invasion as a crusade.
 
Re: I can cite passages from the Bible


Originally posted by SDBoiler1:

ISIS is taking the Koran quite literally and practicing what it says. ISIS followers are deranged lunatics.
Question - If there were a group of Christians that opted to take the Old Testament literally (say, in Uganda, where "Christian" elements are pushing for the execution of gays using, at least in part, the Bible as part of there argument), would you say they are simply "taking the Bible quite literally and practicing what it says?" Would you suggest that they are not lunatics?

Of course they are. Same with the Christians that picket funerals and do stupid crap like that - they are "deranged lunatics" whose interpretation of Scripture is clearly warped and wrong. I know very few Christians who would argue anything different.

So why is it not possible for the same thing to happen with Islam - for there to be a group of "deranged lunatics" whose interpretations of the Quran are clearly warped and wrong, and thus rejected by the mainstream of Islam (which is precisely what is happening with ISIS).

The very fact that they are deranged lunatics suggests that what they are promoting is no more real Islam than the law in Uganda that gays should die is real Christianity.
 
Re: I can cite passages from the Bible

Unlike the Koran, there are no eternal calls for violence against non-believers. But you feel compelled to defend Islam so you tear down Christianity. Once again you try to make it seem as if the Bible and the Koran are interchangeable. They're not. Anti-semitism is found throughout the Koran and the history of Muslims. Just because Muslims aren't constantly murdering Jews or Christians or others doesn't deny the existence of those violent passages in the Koran.

Yeah, Muslims have treated Jews wonderfully throughout the ages. Love how you treat dhimmitude as if its no big deal. You would never do that for anything Western. But Islamic? You betcha.

Yeah, Muslims respect Jesus. Which is why they deny his claim of being the Son of God. No big deal.
 
Re: I can cite passages from the Bible

Question - If there were a group of Christians that opted to take the Old Testament literally (say, in Uganda, where "Christian" elements are pushing for the execution of gays using, at least in part, the Bible as part of there argument), would you say they are simply "taking the Bible quite literally and practicing what it says?" Would you suggest that they are not lunatics?

The Bible literally includes the New Testament. Tell us, how are we supposed to view the relationship between the New and Old Testaments?

Of course they are. Same with the Christians that picket funerals and do stupid crap like that - they are "deranged lunatics" whose interpretation of Scripture is clearly warped and wrong. I know very few Christians who would argue anything different.

If only the worst thing Muslims did was have ~10 assholes protest funerals. Yeah, Christians have their "deranged lunatics" just like Muslims do. Equality!


Why is a Christian pastor defending Islam? Shouldn't you be trying to undermine Islam?
 
Re: I can cite passages from the Bible

No offense, but the question wasn't directed at you. I know full well where you stand and attempting to engage in this conversation with you will be tedious and fruitless for the both of us.

I'm more interested in the response of the OP.
 
lol

in other words, simply reading the verses themselves doesn't tell you everything does it?

You need...wait for it...CONTEXT. You need to know these are OT verses, and you need to know that modern Christians consider most of those laws obsolete/replaced. You need to understand something more about Christianity then simply reading the verses in plain language and going, what's the confusion?

I know exactly where those quotations came from, and I knew exactly what your protestation was going to be. The point was to get you to make those protestations.

Second, pastorjoe is right on. If a group of Christians came along and said, we don't think the OT was made obsolete, we live our lives as if the OT laws are still in effect. They'd be abiding by old school thinking, and they'd be doing so with an inaccurate understanding towards Christianity. Yes? Would you agree then that such a group is REALLY Christian because they are going old school?

Yes, throughout history some folks HAVE tried to hijack or pervert a faith to further their aims, that's the whole freaking point.
 
Re: I can cite passages from the Bible

pastorjoe,

I do see your point, to a point. The Ugandan "Christians" are wrong to kill gays. However, there is a distinction, too. The Ugandans are killing gays because of what they are. ISIS kills people for what they believe. Still, the New Testament does not say "Kill the gays wherever you find them". The Koran says "Kill the infidels where you find them".

I'd say ISIS is taking a much more literal interpretation.
 
JMO

If they were smart they would have tried to sell them to raise funds.
 
The Jihad That Led to the Crusades

Its a long list. Part of the reason I posted this was to see if it would all fit so I can set a personal record for longest post ever. It worked!

Many people, not just President Obama, love to bring up the Crusades whenever Islam does something bad. Funny how they never lecture Muslims about the centuries of aggression that led up to that. We're supposed to start the clock at the beginning of the Crusades so we can make the West look bad. Those are the rules of political correctness. Also, blame the West for "invading" the ME so we can excuse the modern-day atrocities committed by numerous Muslims all over the world. Always start the clock to make the West look bad. Never the other way around.

**************

The Jihad That Led to the Crusades




Obama's remarks about the evil of the Crusades, needs to be factually examined in detail. Here is such a list:


0355 After removing a Roman temple from the site (possibly the Temple
of Aphrodite built by Hadrian), Constantine I has the Church of the
Holy Sepulcher constructed in Jerusalem. Built around the excavated hill
of the Crucifixion, legend has it that Constantine's mother Helena
discovered the True Cross here.

0613 - Persians capture Damascus and Antioch.

0614 - Persians sack Jerusalem. damaging the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in the process.

0633 - Muslims conquer Syria and Iraq.

0634 - 0644 - Umar (c. 0591 - 0644) reigns as the second caliph.

0635 - Muslims begin the conquest of Persia and Syria.

0635 - Arab Muslims capture the city of Damascus from the Byzantines.

August 20, 0636 - Battle of Yarmuk (also: Yarmuq, Hieromyax):
Following the Muslim capture of Damascus and Edessa, Byzantine Emperor
Heraclius organizes a large army which manages to take back control of
those cities. However, Byzantine commander, Baänes is soundly defeated
by Muslim forces under Khalid ibn Walid in a battle in the valley of the
Yarmuk River outside Damascus. This leaves all of Syria open to Arab
domination.

0637 - The Arabs occupy the Persian capital of Ctesiphon. By 0651,
the entire Persian realm would come under the rule of Islam and
continued its westward expansion.

0637 - Syria is conquered by Muslim forces.

0637 - Jerusalem falls to invading Muslim forces.

0638 - Caliph Umar I enters Jerusalem.

0639 - Muslims conquer Egypt and Persia.

0641 - Islam spreads into Egypt. The Catholic Archbishop invites Muslims to help free Egypt from Roman oppressors.

0641 - Under the leadership of Abd-al-Rahman, Muslims conquer southern areas of Azerbaijan, Daghestan, Georgia, and

Armenia.

0641 - Under the leadership of Amr ibn al-As, Muslims conquer the
Byzantine city of Alexandria in Egypt. Amr forbids the looting of the
city and proclaims freedom of worship for all. According to some
accounts, he also has what was left of the Great Library burned the
following year. Al-As creates the first Muslim city in Egypt, al-Fustat,
and builds there the first mosque in Egypt.

0644 - Muslim leader Umar dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman, a
member of the Umayyad family that had rejected Muhammad's prophesies.
Rallies arise to support Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, as
caliph. Uthman launches invasions to the west into North Africa.

0649 - Muawiya I, a member of the Umayyad family, leads a raid
against Cyprus, sacking the capital Salamis-Constantia after a short
siege and pillaging the rest of the island.

0652 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims coming out of Tunisia (named
Ifriqiya by the Muslims, a name later given to the entire continent of
Africa).

0653 - Muawiya I leads a raid against Rhodes, taking the remaining
pieces of the Colossus of Rhodes (one of the Seven Wonders of the
ancient world) and shipping it back to Syria to be sold as scrap metal.

0654 - Muawiya I conquers Cyprus and stations a large garrison there. The island would remain in Muslim hands until 0966.

0655 - Battle of the Masts: In one of the only Muslim naval victories
in the entire history of Islam, Muslim forces under the command of
Uthman bin Affan defeat Byzantine forces under Emperor Constant II. The
battle takes place off the coast of Lycia and is an important stage in
the decline of Byzantine power.

0661 - 0680 - Mu'awiya, founder of the Umayyad dynasty, becomes the caliph and moves the capital from Mecca to Damascus.

0662 - Egypt fell to the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates until 868 CE.
A year prior, the Fertile Crescent and Persia yielded to the Umayyad
and Abbasid caliphates, whose rule lasted until 1258 CE and 820 CE,
respectively.

0667 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims coming out of Tunisia.

0668 - First Siege of Constantinople: This attack lasts off and on
for seven years, with the Muslim forces generally spending the winters
on the island of Cyzicus, a few miles south of Constantinople, and only
sailing against the city during the spring and summer months. The Greeks
are able to fend off repeated attacks with a weapon desperately feared
by the Arabs: Greek Fire. It burned through ships, shields, and flesh
and it could not be put out once it started. Muawiyah has to send
emissaries to Byzantine Emperor Constans to beg him to let the survivors
return home unimpeded, a request that is granted in exchange for a
yearly tribute of 3,000 pieces of gold, fifty slaves, and fifty Arab
horses.

0669 - The Muslim conquest reaches to Morocco in North Africa. The
region would be open to the rule of the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates
until 800 CE.

0672 - Muslims under Mauwiya I capture the island of Rhodes.

0674 - Arab conquest reaches the Indus River.

August 23, 0676 - Birth of Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) in
Herstal, Wallonia, Belgium, as the illegitimate son of Pippin II.
Serving as Mayor of the Palace of the kingdom of the Franks, Charles
would lead a force of Christians that turn back a Muslim raiding party
near Poitiers (or Tours) which, according to many historians, would
effectively halt the advance of Islam against Christianity in the West.

0677 - Muslims send a large fleet against Constantinople in an effort
to finally break the city, but they are defeated so badly through the
Byzantine use of Greek Fire that they are forced to pay an indemnity to
the Emperor.

0680 - Birth of Leo III the Isaurian, Byzantine Emperor, along the
Turkish-Syrian border in the Syrian province of Commagene. Leo's
tactical skills would be responsible for turning back the second Arab
Muslim siege of Constantinople in 0717, shortly after he is elected
emperor.

0688 - Emperor Justinian II and Caliph al-Malik sign a peace treaty
making Cyprus neutral territory. For the next 300 years, Cyprus is ruled
jointly by both the Byzantines and the Arabs despite the continuing
warfare between them elsewhere.

0691 - Birth of Hisham, 10th caliph of the Umayyad Dynasty. It is
under Hisham that Muslim forces would make their deepest incursions into
Western Europe before being stopped by Charles Martel at the Battle of
Poitiers in 0732.

0698 - Muslims capture Carthage in North Africa.

0700 - Muslims from Pamntelleria raid the island of Sicily.

0711 - With the further conquest of Egypt, Spain and North Africa,
Islam included all of the Persian empire and most of the old Roman world
under Islamic rule. Muslims began the conquest of Sindh in Afghanistan.

April 0711 - Tariq ibn Malik, a Berber officer, crosses the strait
separating Africa and Europe with a group of Muslims and enters Spain
(al-Andalus, as the Muslims called it, a word is etymologically linked
to "Vandals"). The first stop in the Muslim conquest of Spain is at the
foot of a mountain that comes to be called Jabel Tarik, the Mountain of
Tarik. Today it is known as Gibraltar. At one time the Berbers had been
Christians but they recently converted in large numbers to Islam after
the Arab conquest of North Africa.

July 19, 0711 - Battle of Guadalete: Tariq ibn Ziyad kills King
Rodrigo (or Roderic), Visigoth ruler of Spain, at the Guadalete River in
the south of the Iberian peninsula. Tariq ibn Ziyad had landed at
Gibraltar with 7,000 Muslims at the invitation of heirs of the late
Visigoth King Witica (Witiza) who wanted to get rid of Rodrigo (this
group includes Oppas, the bishop of Toledo and primate of all Spain, who
happens to be the brother of the late king Witica). Ziyad, however,
refuses to turn control of the region back over to the heirs of Witica.
Almost the entire Iberian peninsula would come under Islamic control by
0718 CE.

0712 - Muslim governor of Northern Africa Musa ibn Nusayr follows
Tariq ibn Ziyad with an army of 18,000 as reinforcements for the
conquest of Andalusia. Musa's father had been a Catholic Yemenite
studying to be a priest in Iraq when he was captured in Iraq by Khalid,
the "Sword of Islam," and forced to choose between conversion or death.
This invasion of Iraq had been one of the last military orders given by
Muhammed before his death.

0714 - Birth of Pippin III (Pippin the Short) in Jupille (Belgium).
Son of Charles Martel and father of Charlemagne, in 0759 Pippin would
capture Narbonne, the last Muslim stronghold in France, and thereby
drive Islam out of France.

0715 - By this year just about all of Spain is in Muslim hands. The
Muslim conquest of Spain only took around three years but the Christian
reconquest would require around 460 years (it might have gone faster had
the various Christian kingdoms not been at each other' throats much of
the time). Musa's son, Abd el-Aziz, is left in charge and makes his
capital the city of Seville, where he married Egilona, widow of king
Rodrigo. Caliph Suleiman, a paranoid ruler, would have el-Aziz
assassinated and sends Musa into exile in his native Yemen village to
live out his days as a beggar.

0716 - Lisbon is captured by Muslims.

0717 - Cordova (Qurtuba) becomes the capital of Muslim holdings in Andalusia (Spain).

0717 - Leo the Isaurian, born along the Turkish-Syrian border in the
Syrian province of Commagene, revolts against the usurper Theodosius III
and assumes the throne of the Byzantine Empire.

August 15, 0717 - Second Siege of Constantinople: Taking advantage of
the civil unrest in the Byzantine Empire, Caliph Sulieman sends 120,000
Muslims under the command of his brother, Moslemah, to launch the
second siege of Constantinople. Another force of around 100,000 Muslims
with 1,800 galleys soon arrives from Syria and Egypt to assist. Most of
these reinforcements are quickly destroyed with Greek Fire. Eventually
the Muslims outside Constantinople begin to starve and, in the winter,
they also begin to freeze to death. Even the Bulgarians, usually hostile
to the Byzantines, send a force to destroy Muslim reinforcements
marching from Adrianopolis.

August 15, 0718 - Muslims abandon their second siege of
Constantinople. Their failure here leads to the weakening of the Umayyad
government, in part because of the heavy losses. It is estimated that
of the 200,000 soldiers who besieged Constantinople, only around 30,000
made it home. Although the Byzantine Empire also sustains heavily
casualties and loses most its territory south of the Taurus Mountains,
by holding the line here they prevent a disorganized and militarily
inferior Europe from having to confront a Muslim invasion along the
shortest possible route. Instead, the Arabic invasion of Europe must
proceed along the longer path across northern Africa and into Spain, a
route which prevents quick reinforcement and ultimately proves
ineffective.

0719 - Muslims attack Septimania in southern France (so named because
it was the base of operations for Rome's Seventh Legion) and become
established in the region known as Languedoc, made famous several
hundred years later as the center of the Cathar heresy.

July 09,0721 - A Muslim army under the command of Al-Semah and that
had crossed the Pyrenees is defeated by the Franks near Toulouse.
Al-Semah is killed and his remaining forces, which had previously
conquered Narbonne, are forced back across the Pyrenees into Spain.

0722 - Battle of Covadonga: Pelayo, (0690-0737) Visigoth noble who had
been elected the first King of Asturias (0718- 0737), defeats a Muslim
army at Alcama near Covadonga. This is generally regarded as the first
real Christian victory over the Muslims in the Reconquista.

0724 - Hisham becomes the 10th caliph of the Umayyad Dynasty. It is
under Hisham that Muslim forces make their deepest incursions into
Western Europe before being stopped by Charles Martel at the Battle of
Poitiers in 0732.

0724 - Under the command of Ambissa, Emir of Andalusia, Muslim forces
raid southern France and capture the cities of Carcassone and Nimes.
Primary targets in these and other raids are churches and monasteries
where the Muslims take away holy objects and enslave or kill all the
clerics.

0725 - Muslim forces occupied Nimes, France.

0730 - Muslim forces occupy the French cities of Narbonne and

Avignon.

October 10, 0732 - Battle of Tours: With perhaps 1,500 soldiers,
Charles Martel halts a Muslim force of around 40,000 to 60,000 cavalry
under Abd el-Rahman Al Ghafiqi from moving farther into Europe. Many
regard this battle as being decisive in that it saved Europe from Muslim
control. Gibbon wrote: "A victorious line of march had been prolonged
above a thousand miles from the rock of Gibraltar to the banks of the
Loire; the repetition of an equal space would have carried the Saracens
to the confines of Poland and the Highlands of Scotland; the Rhine is
not more impassable than the Nile or Euphrates, and the Arabian fleet
might have sailed without a naval combat into the mouth of the Thames.
Perhaps the interpretation of the Koran would now be taught in the
schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised
people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Muhammed." Others,
though, argue that the battle's importance has been exaggerated. The
names of Tours, Poitiers, and Charles Martel do not appear in the Arab
histories. They list the battle under the name Balat al- Shuhada, the
Highway of Martyrs, and is treated as a minor engagement.

0735 - Muslim invaders capture the city of Arles.

0737 - Charles Martel sends his brother, Childebrand, to lay siege to
Avignon and drive out the Muslim occupiers. Childebrand is successful
and, according to records, has all the Muslims in the city killed.

0739 - Already having retaken Narbonne, Beziers, Montpellier, and Nimes
during the previous couple of years, Childebrand captures Marseille, one
of the largest French cities still in Muslim hands.

June 08, 0741 - Death of Leo III the Isaurian, Byzantine Emperor.
Leo's tactical skills were responsible for turning back the second Arab
Muslim siege of Constantinople in 0717, shortly after he was elected
emperor.

October 22, 0741.- Death of Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) in at
Quierzy (today the Aisne county in the Picardy region of France). As
Mayor of the Palace of the kingdom of the Franks, Charles had led a
force of Christians that turned back a Muslim raiding party near
Poitiers (or Tours) which, according to many historians, effectively
halted the advance of Islam against Christianity in the West.

April 04, 0742 -Birth of Charlemagne, founder of the Frankish Empire.

0743 -Death of Hisham, 10th caliph of the Umayyad Dynasty. It was
under Hisham that Muslim forces made their deepest incursions into
Western Europe before being stopped by Charles Martel at the Battle of
Poitiers in 0732.

0750- The Arabian Nights, a compilation of stories written under the
reign of the Abbasids, became representative of the lifestyle and
administration of this Persian influenced government.

0750 - 0850 -The Four Orthodox Schools of Islamic Law were established.

0750 -The Abbasids assume control of the Islamic world (except Spain,
which falls under the control of a descendant of the Umayyad family)
and moved the capital to Baghdad in Iraq. The Abbasid Caliphate would
last until 1258.

September 0755 -Abd al-Rahman of the Umayyad dynasty flees to Spain
to escape the Abbasids and would be responsible for creating the "Golden
Caliphate" in Spain.

0756 -The Emirate of Cordova is established by Umayyad refugee Abd
al-Rahman I in order to revive the defeated Umayyad caliphate which had
been destroyed in 0750 by the Abbasids. Cordova would become independent
of the Abbasid Empire and represents the first major political division
within Islam. The political and geographic isolation of the Cordova
Caliphate would make it easier for Christians to decisively conquer it
despite their failures elsewhere, although this would not be completed
until 1492.

0759 -Arabs lose the city of Narbonne, France, their furthest and
last conquest into Frankish territory. In capturing this city Pippin III
(Pippin the Short) ends the Muslim incursions in France.

0768 -Pepin's son, Carolus Magnus (Charlemagne), succeeded his father
and became one of the most important European rulers of medieval
history.

September 24, 0768 -Death of Pippin III (Pippin the Short) at Saint
Denis. Son of Charles Martel and father of Charlemagne, in 0759 Pippin
captured Narbonne, the last Muslim stronghold in France, and thereby
drove Islam out of France.

0778 -Charlemagne, King of the Franks and soon-to-be Holy Roman
Emperor, is invited by a group of Arab leaders in northeastern Spain to
attack Abd al-Rahman I, ruler of the Emirate of Cordova. Charlemagne
obliges them, but is forced to retreat after only getting as far as
Saragossa. It is during his march back through the Pyrenees that his
forces are set upon by Basques. Among the many who die is the war leader
Roland from Breton, killed in Roncevalles, whose memory has been
preserved in the "Chanson de Roland," an important epic poem during the
Middle Ages.

0785 -The Great Mosque in Cordoba, in Muslim controlled Spain, was built.

0787 - Danes invade England for the first time.

0788 -Death of Abd al-Rahman I, founder of the Umayyad Emirate of Cordova. His successor is Hisham I.

0792- Hisham I, emir of Cordova, calls for a Jihad against the
infidels in Andalusia and France. Tens of thousands from as far away as
Syria heed his call and cross the Pyrennes to subjugate France. Cities
like Narbonne are destroyed, but the invasion is ultimately halted at
Carcassone.

0796 -Death of Hisham I, emir of Cordova. His successor is his son,
al-Hakam, who would keep up the jihad against the Christians but would
also be forced to contend with rebellion at home.

0799 -The Basques rise in revolt and kill the local Muslim governor of Pamplona.

0800 -North Africa falls under the rule of the Aghlabi dynasty of Tunis, which would last until 0909 CE.

0800 - 1200 -Jews experience a "golden age" of creativity and toleration in Spain under Moorish (Muslim) rule.

0800 -Ambassadors of Caliph Harunu r-Rashid give keys to the Holy
Sepulcher to the Frankish king, thus acknowledging some Frankish control
over the interests of Christians in Jerusalem.

0801 -Vikings begin selling slaves to Muslims.

0806 -Hien Tsung becomes the Emperor of China. During his reign a shortage of copper leads to the introduction of paper money.

0813 -Muslims attack the Civi Vecchia near Rome.

April 04,0814 -Death of Charlemagne, founder of the Frankish Empire.

0816 -With the support of Moors, the Basques revolt against the Franks in Glascony.

0822 -Death of Al-Hakam, emir of Cordova. He is succeeded by Abd al-Rahman II.

June 0827 -Sicily is invaded by Muslims who, this time, are looking
to take control of the island rather than simply taking away booty. They
are initially aided by Euphemius, a Byzantine naval commander who is
rebelling against the Emperor. Conquest of the island would require 75
years of hard fighting.

0831 -Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Palermo and make it their capital.

0835 -Birth of Ahmad Ibn Tultun, founder of the Tulunid Dynasty in
Egypt. Originally sent there as a deputy by the Abbasid Caliphate,
Tultun will establish himself as an independent power in the region,
extending his control as far north as Syria. It is under Tultun that the
Great Mosque of Cairo is built.

0838 -Muslim raiders sack Marseille.

0841 -Muslim forces capture Bari, principle Byzantine base in southeastern Italy.

0846 -Muslim raiders sail a fleet of ships from Africa up the Tiber
river and attack outlying areas around Ostia and Rome. Some manage to
enter Rome and damage the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul. Not until
Pope Leo IV promises a yearly tribute of 25,000 silver coins do the
raiders leave. The Leonine Wall is built in order to fend off further
attacks such as this.

0849 -Battle of Ostia: Aghlabid monarch Muhammad sends a fleet of
ships from Sardinia to attack Rome. As the fleet prepares to land
troops, the combination of a large storm and an alliance of Christian
forces were able to destroy the Muslims ships.

0850 -The Acropolis of Zimbabwe was built in Rhodesia.

0850 -Perfectus, a Christian priest in Muslim Cordova, is executed
after he refuses to retract numerous insults he made about the Prophet
Muhammed. Numerous other priests, monks, and laity would follow as
Christians became caught up in a zest for martyrdom.

0851- Abd al-Rahman II has eleven young Christians executed in the
city of Cordova after they deliberately seek out martyrdom by insulting
the Prophet Muhammed.

0852 -Death of Abd al-Rahman II, emir of Cordova.

0858- Muslim raiders attack Constantinople.

0859 -Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Castrogiovanni (Enna), slaughtering several thousand inhabitants.

0863 -Under Cyril (0826 - 0869) and Methodius (c. 0815 - 0885) the
conversion of Moravia begins. The two brothers were sent by the
patriarch of Constantinople to Moravia, where the ruler, Rostilav,
decreed in 863 that any preaching done had to be in the language of the
people. As a result, Cyril and Methodius developed the first usable
alphabet for the Slavic tongue - thus, the Cyrillic alphabet.

0866 Emperor Louis II travels from Germany to southern Italy to battle the Muslim raiders causing trouble there.

0868 -The Sattarid dynasty, whose rule would continue until 0930 CE,
extended Muslim control throughout most of Persia. In Egypt, the
Abbasid and Umayyad caliphates ended and the Egyptian-based Tulunid
dynasty took over (lasting until 904 CE).

0869 -Arabs capture the island of Malta.

0870- After a month-long siege, the Sicilian city of Syracuse is captured by Muslim invaders.

0871 -King Alfred the Great of England created a system of government
and education which allowed for the unification of smaller Anglo-Saxon
states in the ninth and tenth centuries.

0874 -Iceland is colonized by Vikings from Norway.

0876 -Muslims pillage Campagna in Italy.

0879 -The Seljuk Empire unites Mesopotamia and a large portion of Persia.

0880 - Under Emperor Basil, the Byzantines recapture lands occupied by Arabs in Italy.

0884- Death of Ahmad Ibn Tultun, founder of the Tulunid Dynasty in
Egypt. Originally sent there as a deputy by the Abbasid Caliphate,
Tultun established himself as an independent power in the region,
extending his control as far north as Syria. It is under Tultun that the
Great Mosque of Cairo is built.

0884 -Muslims invading Italy burn the monastery of Monte Cassino to the ground.

0898 -Birth of Abd al-Rahman III, generally regarded as the greatest
of the Umayyad caliphs in Andalusia. Under his rule, Cordova would
become one of the most powerful centers of Islamic learning and power.

0900 -The Fatimids of Egypt conquered north Africa and included the territory as an extension of Egypt until 0972 CE.

0900 -Mayans emigrate to the Yucatan Peninsula.

0902 -The Muslim conquest of Sicily is completed when the last
Christian stronghold, the city of Taorminia, is captured. Muslim rule of
Sicily would last for 264 years.

0905-The Tulunid Dynasty in Egypt is destroyed by an Abbasid army
sent to reestablish control over the region of Egypt and Syria.

0909 -Sicily came under the control of the Fatimids' rule of North
Africa and Egypt until 1071 CE. From 0878 until 0909 CE, their rule of
Sicily was uncertain.

0909 -The Fatimid Dynasty assumes control of Egypt. Claiming descent
from Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Muhammed, and Ali bin Abi Talib,
the Fatimids would rule Egypt until being overthrown by the Auyybids and
Saladin in 1171.

0911 -Muslims control all the passes in the Alps between France and Italy, cutting off passage between the two countries.

0912- Abd al-Rahman III becomes the Umayyad Caliph in Andalusia.

0916 -A combined force of Greek and German emperors and Italian
city-states defeat Muslim invaders at Garigliano, putting Muslim raids
in Italy to an end.

0920 -Muslim forces cross the Pyrenees, enter Gascony, and reach as far as the gates of Toulouse.

0929 -Abd al-Rahman III transforms the Emirate of Cordova into and
independent caliphate no longer under even theoretical control from
Baghdad.

0935 - 0969 -The rule of Egypt was under the Ikhidid dynasty.

0936 -The Althing, the oldest body of representative government in Europe, is established in Iceland by the Vikings.

0939 -Madrid is recaptured from Muslim forces.

0940 -Hugh, count of Provence, gives his protection to Moors in St.
Tropez if they agree to keep the Alpine passes closed to his rival,
Berenger.

c. 0950 Catholicism becomes prevalent and dominant religion throughout Europe.

0950 According to traditional historiography, Europe enters Dark Ages.

0953- Emperor Otto I sends representatives to Cordova to ask Caliph
Abd al-Rahman III to call off some Muslim raiders who had set themselves
up in Alpine passes and are attacking merchant caravans going in and
out of Italy.

0961 -Death of Abd al-Rahman III, generally regarded as the greatest
of the Umayyad caliphs in Andalusia. Under his rule, Cordova became one
of the most powerful centers of Islamic learning and power. He is
succeeded by Abdullah, a caliph who would kill many of his rivals (even
family members) and had captured Christians decapitated if they refuse
to convert to Islam.

0961- Under the command of general Nicephorus Phokas, the Byzantines
recapture Crete from Muslim rebels who had earlier fled Cordova.

0965 -Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phokas reconquers Cyprus from the Muslims.

0965 -Grenoble is recaptured from the Muslims.

0969 -The Fatimid dynasty (Shi'ite) takes Egypt from the Ikshidids and assumes the title of caliphate in Egypt until 1171 CE.

0969 -Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas reconquers Antioch (modern Antakya, capital of the province Hatay) from the Arabs.

0972 -The Fatimids of Egypt conquer north Africa.

0972 -The Muslims in the Sisteron district of France surrender to Christian forces and their leader asks to be baptized.

0981- Eric the Red is exiled from Iceland and settles in a new land he called Greenland in order to attract settlers.

0981 -Ramiro III, king of Leon, is defeated by Al-Mansur Ibn Abi
Aamir (Almanzor) at Rueda and is forced to begin paying tribute to the
Caliph of Cordova.

0985 -Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir sacks Barcelona

0994 -The monastery of Monte Cassino is destroyed a second time by Arabs.

0995 -Japanese literary and artistic golden age begins under Emperor Fujiwara Michinaga (ruled 0995 - 1028).

July 03,0997 -Under the leadership of Almanzor, Muslim forces march
out of the city of Cordova and head north to capture Christian lands.

August 11, 0997 -Muslim forces under Almanzor arrive at the city of
Compostela. The city had been evacuated and Almanzor burns it to the
ground.

0998 -Venice conquers the Adriatic port of Zara. The Venetians would
eventually lose the city to the Hungarians and, in 1202, they offer a
deal to soldiers of the Fourth Crusade: capture the city again for them
in exchange for passage to Egypt.

c. 1000-Chinese perfect the production and use of gunpowder.

1000 -The Seljuk (Saljuq) Turkish Empire is founded by an Oghuz
Turkish bey (chieftain) named Seljuk. Originally from the steppe country
around the Caspian Sea, the Seljuks are the ancestors of the Western
Turks, present- day inhabitants of Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and
Azerbaijan.

August 08, 1002 -Death of Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir, ruler of Al-Andalus, on the way back from raiding the Rioja region.

1004 -Arab raiders sack the Italian city of Pisa.

1007 -Birth of Isaac I Comnenus, Byzantine emperor. Founder of the
dynasty of the Comneni, Isaac's government reforms may have helped the
Byzantine Empire last longer.

1009 -The Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is destroyed by Muslim armies.

1009 -Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and
sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the Holy Sepulcher and all
Christian buildings in Jerusalem be destroyed. In Europe a rumor
develops that a "Prince of Babylon" had ordered the destruction of the
Holy Sepulcher at the instigation of the Jews. Attacks on Jewish
communities in cities like Rouen, Orelans, and Mainz ensue and this
rumor helps lay the basis for massacres of Jewish communities by
Crusaders marching to the Holy Land.

1009 -Sulaimann, grandson of Abd al-Rahman III, returns over 200
captured fortresses to the Castilians in return for massive shipments of
food for his army.

1012 -Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and
sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the destruction of all Christian
and Jewish houses of worship in his lands.

1012 -Berber forces capture Cordova and order that half the population be executed.

1013 -Jews are expelled from the Umayyad Caliphate of Cordova, then ruled by Sulaimann.

1015 -Arab Muslim forces conquer Sardinia.

1016 -The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is partially destroyed by earthquakes.

1020 -Merchants from Amalfi and Salerno are granted permission by the
Egyptian Caliph to build a hospice in Jerusalem. Out of this would
eventually grow The Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. John of
Jerusalem (also known as: Knights of Malta, Knights of Rhodes, and most
commonly as Knights Hospitaller).

1021 -Caliph al-Hakim proclaimed himself to be divine and founded the Druze sect.

1022 -Several Cathar heretics are discovered in Toulouse and put to death.

1023 -Muslims expel the Berber rulers from Cordova and install Abd er-Rahman V as caliph.

1025 -The power of the Byzantine Empire begins to decline.

1026 -Richard II of Normandy leads a group of several hundred armed
men on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land in the belief that the Day of
Judgment had arrived. Turkish control of the region hampers their goals,
however.

1027 -The Frankish protectorate over Christian interests in Jerusalem
is replaced by a Byzantine protectorate. Byzantine leaders begin the
reconstruction of the Holy Sepulcher.

1029- Alp Arslan, "The Lion Hero," is born. Arslan is the son of
Togrul Beg, conqueror of Baghdad who made himself ruler of the
Caliphate, and great-grandson of Seljuk, founder of the Seljuk Turkish
empire.

1031 -The Moorish Caliphate of Córdoba falls.

1031 -The emir of Aleppo has the Krak des Chevaliers contructed.

1033 -Castile is retaken from the Arabs.

1035 -The Byzantines make a landing in Sicily, but don't try to recapture the island from the Muslims.

1038 -The Seljuk Turks become established in Persia.

1042- The rise of the Seljuk Turks begins.

1045 - 1099 -1099 Life of Ruy Diaz de Vivar, known as El Cid (Arabic
for "lord"), national hero of Spain. El Cid would become famous for his
efforts to drive the Moors out of Spain. May 18, 1048 - Persian poet
Umar Khayyam is born. His poem The Rubaiyat became popular in the West
because of its use by Victorian Edward Fitzgerald.

1050 - 1200 -The first agricultural revolution of Medieval Europe
begins in 1050 CE with a shift to the northern lands for cultivation, a
period of improved climate from 700 CE to 1200 CE in western Europe, and
the widespread use and perfection of new farming devices. Technological
innovations include the use of the heavy plow, the three-field system
of crop rotation, the use of mills for processing cloth, brewing beer,
crushing pulp for paper manufacture, and the widespread use of iron and
horses. With an increase in agricultural advancements, Western towns and
trade grow exponentially and Western Europe returns to a money economy.

1050 -Duke Bohemond I (Bohemond Of Taranto, French Bohémond De
Tarente), prince of Otranto (1089-1111) is born. One of the leaders of
the First Crusade, Bohemond would be largely responsible for the capture
of Antioch and he secures the title Prince of Antioch (1098 - 1101,
1103 - 04).

1050 -Byzantine emperor Constantine IX Monomachos restores the complex of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.

1054 -A famine in Egypt forces al Mustansir, 8th Fatimid caliph, to
seek food and other commercial assistance from Italy and the Byzantine
Empire.

July 16,-1054 Great Schism: The Western Christian Church, in an
effort to further enhance its power, had tried to impose Latin rites on
Greek churches in southern Italy in 1052; as a consequence, Latin
churches in Constantinople were closed. In the end, this leads to the
excommunication of Michael Cerularius, patriarch of Constantinople (who
in turn excommunicates Pope Leo IX). Although generally regarded as a
minor event at the time, today it is treated as the final event that
sealed the Great Schism between Eastern and Western Christianity.

1055 -Seljuk Turks capture Baghdad.

1056 -The Almoravid (al-Murabitun) Dynasty begins its rise to power.
Taking the name "those who line up in defense of the faith," this is a
group of fanatical Berber Muslims who would rule North Africa and Spain
until 1147.

1061 -Roger Guiscard lands at Sicily with a large Norman force and
captures the city of Masara. The Norman reconquest of Sicily would
require another 30 years.

1063 -Alp Arslan succeeds his father, Togrul Beg, as ruler of the Baghdad Caliphate and the Seljuk Turks.

1064 -The Seljuk Turks conquer Christian Armenia.

September 29, 1066 -William the Conqueror invades England and claims
the English throne at the Battle of Hastings. Because William is both
the King of England and the Duke of Normandy, The Norman Conquest fuses
French and English cultures. The language of England evolves into Middle
English with an English syntax and grammar and a heavily French
vocabulary.

1067 -Romanus IV Diogenes becomes the Byzantine Emperor.

1068 -Alp Arslan invades the Byzantine Empire and is repulsed by
Romanus IV Diogenes over the course of three campaigns. Not until 1070,
though, would the Turks be driven back across the Euphrates river.

1070 -Seljuk Turks capture Jerusalem from the Fatimids. Seljuk rule
is not quite as tolerant as that of the Fatimids and Christian pilgrims
begin returning to Europe with tales of persecution and oppression.

1070 -Brother Gerard, a leader of the Benedictine monks and nuns who
run the hospices in Jerusalem. beings to organize The Order of Knights
of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (also known as: Knights of
Malta, Knights of Rhodes, and most commonly as Knights Hospitaller) as a
more military force for the active protection of Christian pilgrims.

1071 -Normans conquer the last Byzantine holdings in Italy.

1071 - 1085 -Seljuk Turks conquer most of Syria and Palestine.

August 19, 1071 -

Battle of Manzikert: Alp Arslan leads an army of Seljuk Turks against
the Byzantine Empire near Lake Van. Numbering perhaps as many as 100,000
men, the Turks take the fortresses of Akhlat and Manzikert before
Byzantine Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes can respond. Although Diogenes is
able to recapture Akhlat, the siege of Manzikert fails when a Turkish
relief force arrives and Andronicus Ducas, an enemy of Romanus Diogenes,
refuses to obey orders to fight. Diogenes himself is captured and
released, but he would be murdered after his return to Constantinople.
Partly because of the defeat at Manzikert and partly due to the civil
wars following the murder of Digoenes, Asia Minor would be left open to
Turkish invasion. One third of Christian Lands and 51% of Christian
Churches fall to Islam.

1072 -Tancred of Hauteville is born. A grandson of Robert Guiscard
and nephew of Bohemund of Taranto, Tancred would become a leader of the
First Crusade and eventually regent of the Principality of Antioch.

December 15, 1072 -Malik Shah I, son of Alp Arslan, succeeds his father as Seljuk Sultan.

1073 -Seljuk Turks conquer Ankara.

July 1074 -El Cid marries Jimena, niece of Alfonso IV of Castile and daughter of the Count of Oviedo.

1076 -First recorded execution in England by the ax: the Earl of Huntingdon.

1078 -Seljuk Turks capture Nicaea. It would change hands three more
times, finally coming under control of the Turks again in 1086.

1079 -Battle of Cabra: El Cid led his troops to a rout of Emir Abd Allah of Granada.

1080 -Order of the Hospital of St. John is founded in Italy. This
special order of knights was dedicated to guarding a pilgrim hospital,
or hostel, in Jerusalem.

1080 -An Armenian state is founded in Cilicia, a district on the
southeastern coast of Asia Minor (Turkey), north of Cyprus, by refugees
feeling the Seljuk invasion of their Armenian homeland. A Christian
kingdom located in the midst of hostile Muslim states and lacking good
relations with the Byzantine Empire, "Armenia Minor" would provide
important assistance to Crusaders from Europe.

1081 - 1118 -Alexius I Comnenus is Byzantine emperor.

1081 -El Cid, now a mercenary because he had been exiled by Alfonso
IV of Castile, enters the service of the Moorish king of the northeast
Spanish city of Zaragosa, al-Mu'tamin, and would remain there for his
successor, al- Mu'tamin II.

1082 -Ibn Tumart, founder of the Amohad Dynasty, is born in the Atlas mountains.

1084 -Seljuk Turks conquer Antioch, a strategically important city.

October 25, 1085 -The Moors are expelled from Toledo, Spain, by Alfonso VI.

October 23, 1086 -Battle of Zallaca (Sagrajas): Spanish forces under
Alfonso VI of Castile are defeated by the Moors and their allies, the
Almorivids (Berbers from Morocco and Algeria, led by Yusef I ibn
Tashufin), thus preserving Muslim rule in al-Andalus. The slaughter of
Spaniards was great and Yusef refused to abide by his agreement to leave
Andalusia in the hands of the Moors. His intention was actually to make
Andalusia an African colony ruled by the Almorivids in Morocco.

1087 -After his crushing defeat at Zallaqa, Alfonso VI swallows his pride and recalls El Cid from exile.

September 13, 1087- Birth of John II Comnenus, Byzantine emperor.

1088 -Patzinak Turks begin forming settlements between the Danube and the Balkans.

March 12, 1088 -Urban II is elected pope. An active supporter of the
Gregorian reforms, Urban would become responsible for launching the
First Crusade.

1089 -Byzantine forces conquer the island of Crete.

1090 -Yusuf Ibn Tashfin, King of the Almoravids, captures Granada.

1091 -The Normans recapture Sicily from the Muslims.

1091 - Cordova (Qurtuba) is captured by the Almoravids.

1092 -After the death of Seljuk Sultan (al-sultan , "the power")
Malik Shah I, the capital of the Seljuks is moved from Iconjium to
Smyrna and the empire itself dissolves into several smaller states.

May 1094-El Cid captures Valencia from the Moors, carving out his own
kingdom along the Mediterranean that is only nominally subservient to
Alfonso VI of Castile. Valencia would be both Christian and Muslim, with
adherents of both religions serving in his army.

August 1094 -The Almoravids from Morocco land near Cuarte and lay
siege to Valencia with 50,000 men. El Cid, however, breaks the siege and
forces the Amoravids to flee - the first Christian victory against the
hard-fighting Africans.

November 18, 1095 -Pope Urban II opens the Council of Clermont where
ambassadors from the Byzantine emperor Alexius I Comnenus, asking help
against the Muslims, were warmly received.

Political foundations laid for the first "organized" Christian response to Jihad: the First Crusade.

The Jihad That Led to the Crusades
 
Re: lol

The problem is that people like you won't allow for anything violent to be seen as authentically Islamic. You insist that people like that have "perverted" Islam. In that way, you're a "fundamentalist".

Did Mohammed pervert Islam?

Second, pastorjoe is right on. If a group of Christians came along and
said, we don't think the OT was made obsolete, we live our lives as if
the OT laws are still in effect. They'd be abiding by old school
thinking, and they'd be doing so with an inaccurate understanding
towards Christianity. Yes?


No. If they reject the OT then they're not Christians. Its that simple. Mainly because there was this dude named "Christ" in the NT. Either you accept the NT or you're not a Christian.
 
Originally posted by GMM:
The problem is that people like you won't allow for anything violent to be seen as authentically Islamic. You insist that people like that have "perverted" Islam. In that way, you're a "fundamentalist".

Did Mohammed pervert Islam?

Second, pastorjoe is right on. If a group of Christians came along and
said, we don't think the OT was made obsolete, we live our lives as if
the OT laws are still in effect. They'd be abiding by old school
thinking, and they'd be doing so with an inaccurate understanding
towards Christianity. Yes?


No...Either you accept the NT or you're not a Christian.

What part of the NT do you accept? Please tell us what specific aspects of the NT you adhere to that make you a Christian.

Where, in the NT, does that "dude" Christ get angry?

Where does he react to, or advise reacting to violence with violence?

Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
What part of the NT do you accept?

Only the racist parts.

Where, in the NT, does that "dude" Christ get angry?


Dunno. But something about money changers rings a bell.

Where does he react to, or advise reacting to violence with violence?

Nowhere that I'm aware of. Therefore, if you succeeded in patterning your life after JC you wouldn't be violent.

Mohammed on the other hand........
 
Okay so money changers anger him but really little else and if you follow JC you should be nonviolent.

But where in the NT do you see JC advocate meeting the violence of say Muhammad with violence?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Well, we've strayed off topic here but I'll continue in a moment. qazplm offered a hypothetical scenario which was bogus so I shot it down. One, there are no eternal calls for violence against non-believers in the OT (or the NT for that matter) so anyone who went "old school", and in qazplm's example violent, would indeed be perverting Christianity. People should stop trying to dumb down the Bible and the Koran to make them both seem pretty much the same. They're not. Two, its just simple theological knowledge that you can't reject the NT and still be a Christian. Even a Muslim would know that.

Okay so money changers anger him but really little else and if you follow JC you should be nonviolent.

Do you deny this? What is your point?

But where in the NT do you see JC advocate meeting the violence of say Muhammad with violence?

I don't. Do you? What is your point?

But, hey, at least you acknowledge that Mohammed was violent. Which means Muslims who pattern their lives after him are not necessarily perverting Islam. They very well could be implementing Islam.
 
My point is if you wish every religiosity text to be taken literally and believe the USA to be a Christian nation then how should we be reacting to violence, if we take the NT literally?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Gosh, I guess we'll all just have to be conquered by Islam then. Great point.
 
Ah but if it comes to it we won't be conquered without a fight will we? That is the point, why will we resist "evil," why would we not follow the words of JC? Because the overwhelming majority of Christians, just like Muslims, Jews... don't interpret what they read as being literal instructions.

But then you know that, so back again it is to what is your point re Islam, even though a small extremist minority are the issue here you constantly rail against all Muslims, why? And you can play your coy little games and say you simply don't want Islam "imported" any more but be a man and tell us how you handle the Muslims still in the west and still reading theses words you feel are the problem.
 
There it is

Its like another form of Godwin's Law.

But then you know that, so back again it is to what is your point re Islam, even though a small extremist minority are the issue here you constantly rail against all Muslims, why?

Yes, "all" Muslims. The real victims of Islamic jihad against the West? Muslims.

And you can play your coy little games and say you simply don't want Islam "imported" any more but be a man and tell us how you handle the Muslims still in the west and still reading theses words you feel are the problem.

Don't cater to their Islamic sensibilities. Encourage them to assimilate. Encourage them to emigrate to anywhere else. Pay them to emigrate. Convert them to anything besides Islam. Encourage Muslim leftists who will undermine Islam.

Man enough for ya?

Your (leftist) responses are the inevitable result of any discussion of the threat from Islam: make anything Western look bad.
 
Re: There it is

Okay so Muslims in the west, after we stop importing them, must be "encouraged" to emigrate, assimilate... How exactly do you "encourage" someone to leave their home? And just to be clear, your issue isn't with all Muslims, just those in the west, jihad...?

what exactly have I said that makes anything Western look bad?

Are there any good Muslims? I mean other than the leftist Muslims undermining Islam.
 
Re: There it is

Are there any good Muslims? I mean other than the leftist Muslims undermining Islam.

The problem is Islam. But I understand why you have to make it seem like Muslims are victims. Its like during the Cold War when Western leftists would accuse anti-communists of hating the Russian people or something like that. Doesn't matter how many "good" Muslims there as long as there are plenty (and there certainly are) of Muslims who living up to the commandments of Islam.

And just to be clear, your issue isn't with all Muslims, just those in the west, jihad...?

The problem is Islam.

what exactly have I said that makes anything Western look bad?

OK, fine, in this thread you have specifically targeted the West. But its the general pattern that your side takes. You certainly have ran interference for Islam by pointing the meaningless fact that a lot of Muslims don't follow the Koran literally. And of course you've done your best to make Muslims look like victims. Its attitudes like yours that prevent people from defending the West. If every Westerner thought like you did the West would be doomed.

How exactly do you "encourage" someone to leave their home?

Money is an easy way. But mainly its about our attitude towards our own society. We need to drop the guilt and self-loathing, aka Diversity, Multiculturalism, Equality, etc. Hell, if we were only half as self-confident as Islamic societies are we wouldn't have these problems.
 
Re: There it is

>>Hell, if we were only half as self-confident as Islamic societies are we wouldn't have these problems.

So now who is self-loathing? Is this a clue to the GMM mindset?

Personally I think our society is super-confident in itself. Maybe you are just not comfortable with the society you live in.
 
Re: There it is

Personally I think our society is super-confident in itself.

Right, which is why we have a President who tells us to "get off our high horse" whenever we start defending ourselves against Islamic jihad. We're so confident in ourselves we're replacing ourselves with mass immigration of people who are totally different than us. Nothing says "super self-confidence" like fundamentally transforming yourself into something completely different. Nothing says "super self-confidence" like blaming ourselves every time we're attacked. Nothing says "super self-confidence" than a mindset that whatever made this country great needs to be replaced, aka Diversity and Multiculturalism.
 
Re: I can cite passages from the Bible

I think you are probably right that ISIS is taking a much more literal interpretation. However, I would also suggest that neither you nor I are experts on the Quran and its context and interpretation. You and I are able to point out that the New Testament does not carry on the violence of the Old Testament precisely because we are Christian and because we have taken the time to learn and study our holy text. For obvious reasons (and forgive me if I'm making a false assumption about you), we have not devoted the same time to studying the Quran - any more than many Muslims have spent time studying the Bible. And to someone who has not spent time with the Bible, if they see someone quote the verses in Leviticus that talk about killing gay people, they might well take that as the entirety of the Christian Scriptures' message on the subject. It is up to us to come in and correct those misunderstandings.

Similar, for a non-Muslim, we hear quotes as extreme as "Kill the infidel wherever you find them" and sometimes assume that it really is that cut and dried. Do we not, though, owe the same courtesy to Islam as we ask for from others - that is, the courtesy of allowing them to correct misunderstandings of their holy text that arise out of our ignorance?

I know that I have had a conversation with a local Muslim friend about the texts that say "kill the infidels." He provided context that helped clarify a bit (though did not remove all concern). He also pointed out several places in the Quran that are not as frequently quoted that speak to the responsibility of Muslims to protect and provide care for Christians and Jews. His obviously superior knowledge of his holy text augmented mine.

I'm not saying that the Quran doesn't have verses (suras) that are really problematic. Of course it does. What I'm saying is that it makes sense to me that Muslims are the best interpreters of their own holy text and we should be open to allowing them to share readings and understandings of problematic texts that differ from our assumptions.
 
Re: There it is

Well since being Muslim is not about race, national borders... and the only that makes someone a Muslim is their belief in Islam then yes, the billion plus peaceful Muslims in the world would are wrongfully lumped into your hate, but I doubt it affects them enough that they could be called, or would call themselves, victims.

Again, you can't be Muslim without Islam and can't adhere to Islam and not be a Muslim.

It seems to me, in my lifetime, the USA has had little difficulty entering into conflicts in the predominantly Muslim part of the world. I have no problem defending ourselves, crusading though is another matter.

Your fear of Diversity, Multiculturalism, Equality, as db points out, is your own hangup.
 
Re: There it is

Originally posted by GMM:
Personally I think our society is super-confident in itself.

We're so confident in ourselves we're replacing ourselves with mass immigration of people who are totally different than us. Nothing says "super self-confidence" like fundamentally transforming yourself into something completely different. Nothing says "super self-confidence" like blaming ourselves every time we're attacked. Nothing says "super self-confidence" than a mindset that whatever made this country great needs to be replaced, aka Diversity and Multiculturalism.
I think these are all examples of self-confidence; we aren't afraid to bring in other cultures precisely because we don't view them as a threat to our way of life. The mindset that we are replacing ourselves and must force other to assimilate or pay them to emigrate is based on fear, and acting in this way based on fear is pretty much the opposite of self-confidence.

Last I checked, I'm still here.
 
I just dont understand the cognitive disconnect

Both you and he (and I) understand the idea that there is context to the Bible that a non-Christian might not understand that make seemingly literal violent verses less violent, or not violent at all, or nuanced, or what have.

But he apparently can't apply that exact same idea in reverse to the Qur'an.
 
Re: There it is

Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Hate" and blah, blah, blah.

Again, you can't be Muslim without Islam and can't adhere to Islam and not be a Muslim.

Which is precisely why we shouldn't import them.

It seems to me, in my lifetime, the USA has had little difficulty entering into conflicts in the predominantly Muslim part of the world.

Yeah, other than all the terrorist attacks its been great.
 
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