Colvin and Heide yikes

[tjreese]

You "think" CMP prefers a good low post player? What made you think that

All good TJ, you obviously prefer the pre-shot clock era and I don't. Nothing wrong with that.

Back to the original discussion, what has had a bigger impact on the game? Shot clock or 3 point? Just for a reference, I just went to YouTube and watched the 1st half of the 76 IU championship. Considered the best team of their era, of course pre shot clock and 3 point. What was striking was how compact the game was. It wasn't the pace, I didn't put a stop watch to it, but neither team was holding the ball. They were taking shots fairly quickly. What was obvious though was how much "smaller" the court was on offense because of no 3 point shot. Made for a completely different looking game.

Just my opinion, but I think the 3 point shot has had a much bigger influence on the change in the game than the shot clock has.

no question it was more compact and that Michigan team was a small quick team that got up and down the court. Losing Wilkerson in that game and they still beat Michigan. I personally think most people do think the 3 pt shot has a bigger effect on the game. I just know that before the 3 ball there were still shots taken at that distance. It's purpose was to 1) spread the players since there were a lot of big bodies and that took place by awarding more points when a basket was made...that also enhanced the smaller players which due to population would also increase more teams being competitive since there are a lot more 6'2" players than 6'10" players and the big schools couldn't hoard all the good 6'2" players as we have seen some guards play against Purdue that were small school guards that were good.

I just take a view that before the shot clock the winner was not declared until the clock ran out and so however many points were scored it did not matter until the clock expired and then the game was decided. Many teams would have different results if the clock expired 7 minutes earlier or 7 minutes later and so the clock was when the scores were important. Had there been no clock and teams just played to a score, then the clock wouldn't be a major factor. Inside the clock is the shot clock a secondary clock of importance and one that tries to force any element of basketball into a few seconds of critical mass. I see this quicker action moving more to individual play, less low post play, altering D a bit due to the clock and either going to more individual efforts to score than before the clock . The shot clock was to space the floor due to big bodies and physical play and level the playing field between more teams...and most fans like it. I just happen to be on that doesn't like all the teams to be so similar and a more one dimensional in style, but that is me the unicorn today.

 

[tjreese]

In my opinion, this is in a large part related to Painters offensive scheme. His decision he’s going to focus on his top 2-3 players to do the majority of the work the majority of the time. His third player is usually the other scoring option based on scheme. Yes he has a ton of plays/sets but our offense is run mostly through Smith and TKR. Pick and roll variations … the problem is teams are well aware and have found a game plan to limit the effectiveness. Aggressive D on Braden and push him away from the 3point line, the pick now is coming not near the elbows but several feet outside the 3 point line. Hard hedge brief double team Then drop off on TKR. Smith struggling to drive off of hedge and the short drop pass coming way to far out limiting TKR effectiveness and causing turnovers. Loyer is next option but this team is not setting good screens (damn I miss Zach) . Loyer has played pretty well most games but his funky drives to the basket have been harder and less effective. That leaves us with the two other players… Colvin and Heide are afterthoughts. They aren’t involved except setting picks and posting up outside the arc. I even think I’ve noticed Smith ignoring them on passes when open (I think that’s a different story). Paint has stated those guys can shoot when open but they shouldn’t be hunting shots. There’s no motion creating looks for guys. The ball tends to stagnate at times and then a forced pass … I truly believe the entire team would be more aggressive and engaged if we moved the ball quickly ran more motion and created plays for all 5 guys on the court. Harder to guard and creates more pressure on the D. It appears to me the guys are hesitant to shoot or drive being that’s not in the plays and the hesitation then makes it more difficult to score. Anyone else come away feeling like they are seeing what I’m describing? And no I’m not saying I’m a better coach than Painter. I’m saying there have been games where what the team is trying to force isn’t working and maybe changing it up some and getting all 5 guys on the floor actively trying to score might be worth a shot?

I can agree with where I think you are going. I have a few minutes before I have to get ready to discuss motion and sets that may touch on where your interests like. At one end there is motion offense (and this is not just constant moving). This is relatively not scout able. From the beginning the alignment is more flexible (not leaving a position for press break to go to the location for a set ) and is a read offense reactionary to what the defense allows and what it makes most difficult. Within the roles of players, there is more flexibility for players in that they don't have to run to point A and then run to do something at point B. Being reactionary, the more time to accomplish the desired outcomes increases the optimum results.

Not having as much time as years ago, teams have moved more to dribble drive and individual play. Matt has even discussed that so many players work with trainers on their individual skills, but don't really enhance the team setting for play. Matt even specified in the past that few players today know how to feed a post player. Matt hasn't went to a dribble drive type offense in that he is still old school in using other elements of the game, but he may not have time to run offense as successful as desired and so quick hitters or sets that define more of what a player must do to score quicker have been Matt's approach. This starts out with player location and movements of the players...all easily scouted. Matt counters by including many sets and of course there are "reads" inside each set providing there is time to accomplish such. The closest to motion was the high ball screen with Zach were Braden made the reads and if nothing worked always had Zach to be the closer as the shot clock was about to expire. With "sets" there is a priority of reads that may not get past a couple of people in a given set as you questioned...and being scoutable teams can focus where they want. I read elsewhere...maybe you thinking Braden is "ignoring" certain players which I hope is not the case...unless those players are not located in a scoring position.

I think Matt does a good job and have always been a supporter of his coaching. That said, I have always wanted 1) more back cuts when pressured or back screens 2)always wondered if it was a "good" thing to have so many sets/plays as have been stated...in that thought can be a hindrance at times. Gotta go and not sure I addressed specifically from my opinion any of your thoughts, but think I may have hit on some.

 

[northside100]

In my opinion, this is in a large part related to Painters offensive scheme. His decision he’s going to focus on his top 2-3 players to do the majority of the work the majority of the time. His third player is usually the other scoring option based on scheme. Yes he has a ton of plays/sets but our offense is run mostly through Smith and TKR. Pick and roll variations … the problem is teams are well aware and have found a game plan to limit the effectiveness. Aggressive D on Braden and push him away from the 3point line, the pick now is coming not near the elbows but several feet outside the 3 point line. Hard hedge brief double team Then drop off on TKR. Smith struggling to drive off of hedge and the short drop pass coming way to far out limiting TKR effectiveness and causing turnovers. Loyer is next option but this team is not setting good screens (damn I miss Zach) . Loyer has played pretty well most games but his funky drives to the basket have been harder and less effective. That leaves us with the two other players… Colvin and Heide are afterthoughts. They aren’t involved except setting picks and posting up outside the arc. I even think I’ve noticed Smith ignoring them on passes when open (I think that’s a different story). Paint has stated those guys can shoot when open but they shouldn’t be hunting shots. There’s no motion creating looks for guys. The ball tends to stagnate at times and then a forced pass … I truly believe the entire team would be more aggressive and engaged if we moved the ball quickly ran more motion and created plays for all 5 guys on the court. Harder to guard and creates more pressure on the D. It appears to me the guys are hesitant to shoot or drive being that’s not in the plays and the hesitation then makes it more difficult to score. Anyone else come away feeling like they are seeing what I’m describing? And no I’m not saying I’m a better coach than Painter. I’m saying there have been games where what the team is trying to force isn’t working and maybe changing it up some and getting all 5 guys on the floor actively trying to score might be worth a shot?

Agree that schematic adjustments are needed. Both Try and Fletch said after the Auburn game that they’re going to need to find counters. I would like to see Braden look to get to a 12 to 15 foot jumper immediately after he gets the past the hard hedge that teams are sending. Too often he is waiting too long to get to his pull up and settling for an 18 foot off balance shot.

 

[tjreese]

After that schematic adjustments are needed. Both Try and Fletch said after the Auburn game that they’re going to need to find counters. I would like to see Braden look to get to a 12 to 15 foot jumper immediately after he gets the past the hard hedge that teams are sending. Too often he is waiting to long to get to his pull up and settling for an 18 foot off balance shot.

Thanks, I haven't had a chance to hear what they or Matt had to say.

 

[qazplm]

In my opinion, this is in a large part related to Painters offensive scheme. His decision he’s going to focus on his top 2-3 players to do the majority of the work the majority of the time. His third player is usually the other scoring option based on scheme. Yes he has a ton of plays/sets but our offense is run mostly through Smith and TKR. Pick and roll variations … the problem is teams are well aware and have found a game plan to limit the effectiveness. Aggressive D on Braden and push him away from the 3point line, the pick now is coming not near the elbows but several feet outside the 3 point line. Hard hedge brief double team Then drop off on TKR. Smith struggling to drive off of hedge and the short drop pass coming way to far out limiting TKR effectiveness and causing turnovers. Loyer is next option but this team is not setting good screens (damn I miss Zach) . Loyer has played pretty well most games but his funky drives to the basket have been harder and less effective. That leaves us with the two other players… Colvin and Heide are afterthoughts. They aren’t involved except setting picks and posting up outside the arc. I even think I’ve noticed Smith ignoring them on passes when open (I think that’s a different story). Paint has stated those guys can shoot when open but they shouldn’t be hunting shots. There’s no motion creating looks for guys. The ball tends to stagnate at times and then a forced pass … I truly believe the entire team would be more aggressive and engaged if we moved the ball quickly ran more motion and created plays for all 5 guys on the court. Harder to guard and creates more pressure on the D. It appears to me the guys are hesitant to shoot or drive being that’s not in the plays and the hesitation then makes it more difficult to score. Anyone else come away feeling like they are seeing what I’m describing? And no I’m not saying I’m a better coach than Painter. I’m saying there have been games where what the team is trying to force isn’t working and maybe changing it up some and getting all 5 guys on the floor actively trying to score might be worth a shot?

I took have noticed that sometimes Smith seems to ignore Colvin and to a lesser extent Heide. I have no idea if that's in purpose, part of strategy, or something else.

 

[purduedavie]

How could he not? Granted, you would have thought that would have been clear before this season.

Did Catchings leaving late maybe add to him not adding someone?

 

[typeviic]

Smith has proven he can create his own shot. But Auburns much longer athletic guys kept guarding Smith and it made it hard. You won't find dudes like that in the Big Ten.

I find it incredible that a football program can get those "long-athletic" types so easy.

 

[typeviic]

Holy lack of paragraphs Batman!

Much like Sarah Palin 'word salad'.

 

[Boilerfla]

Much like Sarah Palin 'word salad'.

Sarah Palin? Let’s go with the fresh salad bar Kamala🤓

Happy New Year Boilers

After reading all of our tweaks to the game plan and lineup, Paint is ready to go Saturday against Toledo

 

[Heads up BOILER]

Sarah Palin? Let’s go with the fresh salad bar Kamala🤓

Happy New Year Boilers

After reading all of our tweaks to the game plan and lineup, Paint is ready to go Saturday against Toledo

Good to see he’s gonna have em ready a day ahead of time for that Sunday game, BOILER UP!!🖤💛🏀

 

[Boilerfla]

Good to see he’s gonna have em ready a day ahead of time for that Sunday game, BOILER UP!!🖤💛🏀

Another good tip!

 

[northside100]

Did Catchings leaving late maybe add to him not adding someone?

I’m sure it didn’t help.

If this season doesn’t go well (team finishes outside of the top 4 or 5 games this n Back g Ten and doesn’t make an NCAAT run) MP will need to reevaluate his approach to the portal.

 

[bonefish1]

I’m sure it didn’t help.

If this season doesn’t go well (team finishes outside of the top 4 or 5 games this n Back g Ten and doesn’t make an NCAAT run) MP will need to reevaluate his approach to the portal.

He needs to reevaluate his approach to the portal no matter what.
Purdue is not going to become bigger and more athletic. We know exactly what this team is. Since we have no inside game other than TKR and are poor rebounding team, this team needs to hit a ton of 3s to win games against longer, more athletic teams. If that doesn't happen, we'll get run off the floor again and again.

 

[typeviic]

He needs to reevaluate his approach to the portal no matter what.
Purdue is not going to become bigger and more athletic. We know exactly what this team is. Since we have no inside game other than TKR and are poor rebounding team, this team needs to hit a ton of 3s to win games against longer, more athletic teams. If that doesn't happen, we'll get run off the floor again and again.

Correct on CMP using the portal. You must do the same thing the others are doing. You cant be stubborn and hold out.

 

[tjreese]

Correct on CMP using the portal. You must do the same thing the others are doing. You cant be stubborn and hold out.

"Stubborn" has been used a lot to describe when Matt's thoughts don't match a poster as though the poster is 100% correct AND Matt knows it. I don't think it is accurate. Matt does "what Matt believes" and has nothing to do with being stubborn, just Matt doing what he believes.

Matt may be wrong and posters may be correct, but Matt would only be considered stubborn if he knew the poster was correct and refused to do the correct thing due to some issue of less importance. None of this says Matt is correct, just that I think "stubborn" is inaccurate to describe the situation. I wish Matt agreed with many of the posters that can already see today the need for recruiting in the portal next year might describe the thoughts of several posters?

 

[New Pal Boiler]

He needs to reevaluate his approach to the portal no matter what.

CMP is constantly reevaluating everything.

But outbidding the IUs and Kansas’s in the portal is probably not happening.

 

[BBG]

"Stubborn" has been used a lot to describe when Matt's thoughts don't match a poster as though the poster is 100% correct AND Matt knows it. I don't think it is accurate. Matt does "what Matt believes" and has nothing to do with being stubborn, just Matt doing what he believes.

Matt may be wrong and posters may be correct, but Matt would only be considered stubborn if he knew the poster was correct and refused to do the correct thing due to some issue of less importance. None of this says Matt is correct, just that I think "stubborn" is inaccurate to describe the situation. I wish Matt agreed with many of the posters that can already see today the need for recruiting in the portal next year might describe the thoughts of several posters?

Every time I see the term "stubborn" used I basically just have to laugh. For that to be even remotely true then the one using it would have to know what CMP is thinking and I guarantee not one of us on here does.
Then to top it off CMP would have to be reading the internet and not only taking what is said to heart, but just ignoring it as you said. But if that is all people can come up with, then CMP is doing something right. .. I mean.. just coming off of a season where we went to a FF.. he clearly is.

Anyway back on topic, it seems like Cam and Colvin both are in their own heads. The ability to be outstanding is clearly there, maybe they just need to get out of their own way....

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Every time I see the term "stubborn" used I basically just have to laugh. For that to be even remotely true then the one using it would have to know what CMP is thinking and I guarantee not one of us on here does.
Then to top it off CMP would have to be reading the internet and not only taking what is said to heart, but just ignoring it as you said. But if that is all people can come up with, then CMP is doing something right. .. I mean.. just coming off of a season where we went to a FF.. he clearly is.

Anyway back on topic, it seems like Cam and Colvin both are in their own heads. The ability to be outstanding is clearly there, maybe they just need to get out of their own way....

I also think they need to have the confidence/“green light” to be able to create/attack in the offense, rather than just look to pass to one of the big 3. Unless the offense does well in B1G play, we need to have action for all 5 of the guys on the floor. I’m sure PJ and Matt see that and hopefully will adjust.

 

[Purdue79fan]

Need more depth at the 5 but would probably be a 1 loss team if DJ were healthy. Let's not overreact to this year when we lost our top recruit late and our tallest player early in the season. With both on the roster, the biggest concern would have been getting minutes for player development.

 

[BBG]

I also think they need to have the confidence/“green light” to be able to create/attack in the offense, rather than just look to pass to one of the big 3. Unless the offense does well in B1G play, we need to have action for all 5 of the guys on the floor. I’m sure PJ and Matt see that and hopefully will adjust.

100% agree. That and let CJ play more as I think he has a chance to come in to his own later on this year.

We're really young too .. yeah we have 3 that have been around a while, but only (a meaningful) 3. I've said it before I am okay (not that it matters) with taking lumps this year for what next season could be. Especially if DJ comes back with some added weight... We could go from not deep, to VERY deep in a single offseason.

 

[BBG]

Need more depth at the 5 but would probably be a 1 loss team if DJ were healthy. Let's not overreact to this year when we lost our top recruit late and our tallest player early in the season. With both on the roster, the biggest concern would have been getting minutes for player development.

And lets also not forget the redhirt talent we have. This season took an unexpected turn so you just salvage what you can and play the long game.. in my opinion anyway

 

[Poprudy]

100% agree. That and let CJ play more as I think he has a chance to come in to his own later on this year.

We're really young too .. yeah we have 3 that have been around a while, but only (a meaningful) 3. I've said it before I am okay (not that it matters) with taking lumps this year for what next season could be. Especially if DJ comes back with some added weight... We could go from not deep, to VERY deep in a single offseason.

CJ and DJ are going to be huge in the future.

Could we possibly see another run to a NC with those 2 getting on the same page, defensive stopper with GH and Burgess. Our youth has very high potential in my mind.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

100% agree. That and let CJ play more as I think he has a chance to come in to his own later on this year.

We're really young too .. yeah we have 3 that have been around a while, but only (a meaningful) 3. I've said it before I am okay (not that it matters) with taking lumps this year for what next season could be. Especially if DJ comes back with some added weight... We could go from not deep, to VERY deep in a single offseason.

2nd youngest in big ten this year…hope we can keep everyone together!

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Need more depth at the 5 but would probably be a 1 loss team if DJ were healthy. Let's not overreact to this year when we lost our top recruit late and our tallest player early in the season. With both on the roster, the biggest concern would have been getting minutes for player development.

I think we still lose at Penn state…but not as much. We just aren’t good with away conference games in December haha.

 

[northside100]

CJ and DJ are going to be huge in the future.

Could we possibly see another run to a NC with those 2 getting on the same page, defensive stopper with GH and Burgess. Our youth has very high potential in my mind.

That’s the counter argument to the ‘we have to hit the portal’ crowd, it’s really early to make a call on a lot of these guys. If it’s still the big three carrying most of the load in March the portal argument is probably right. Fortunately those decisions don’t need to be made in December and January.

 

[BBG]

hope we can keep everyone together!

Thats my biggest worry after this season is over.

 

[Boiler Buck]

CJ and DJ are going to be huge in the future.

Could we possibly see another run to a NC with those 2 getting on the same page, defensive stopper with GH and Burgess. Our youth has very high potential in my mind.

That’s the counter argument to the ‘we have to hit the portal’ crowd, it’s really early to make a call on a lot of these guys. If it’s still the big three carrying most of the load in March the portal argument is probably right. Fortunately those decisions don’t need to be made in December and January.

Agree as Jr- Sr. Highly likely.

As sophomore or RS frosh if granted.....???? I am sure there will be glimpses. But consistent production......Certainly would not count on that in the overall plan for next year. That is in no way a given. And why the portal will be important.

 

[northside100]

Agree as Jr- Sr. Highly likely.

As sophomore or RS frosh if granted.....???? I am sure there will be glimpses. But consistent production......Certainly would not count on that in the overall plan for next year. That is in no way a given. And why the portal will be important.

Are you talking about DJ? I understand the concern there unless RB or Berg really comes on this spring. Outside of DJ you have no clue (neither do I) how those guys will be playing in March.

You may be 100% correct but it’s silly, IMO, to assume that we know what this team will look like in 2 to 3 months.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Are you talking about DJ? I understand the concern there unless RB or Berg really comes on this spring. Outside of DJ you have no clue (neither do I) how those guys will be playing in March.

You may be 100% correct but it’s silly, IMO, to assume that we know what this team will look like in 2 to 3 months.

DJ won't be playing this year. That is a given.

As to the others ....you are correct you have no clue. Nor do I.

But let's theorize the odds......how many players go from a non producer on Jan 1 where we are now ........to a productive scorer by March 1?? Very Rare. Moreover, the high usage rate of the Big 3 makes supplemental productive scoring by others even more rare chance to happen.

There are only 20 regular season games left.
Even if one of the other youngsters somehow miraculously DO breakthrough & have a few "decent" games in those 20 games......that would be nice & welcomed, but still be nothing to plan around or plan by for next year. People thought that with Heide last year, gave us glimpses...and has again this year. Still not a player to count on as a productive starter.....this year.

 

[northside100]

DJ won't be playing this year. That is a given.

As to the others ....you are correct you have no clue. Nor do I.

But let's theorize the odds......how many players go from a non producer on Jan 1 where we are now ........to a productive scorer by March 1?? Very Rare. Moreover, the high usage rate of the Big 3 makes supplemental productive scoring by others even more rare chance to happen.

There are only 20 regular season games left.
Even if one of the other youngsters somehow miraculously DO breakthrough & have a few "decent" games in those 20 games......that would be nice & welcomed, but still be nothing to plan around or plan by for next year. People thought that with Heide last year, gave us glimpses...and has again this year. Still not a player to count on as a productive starter.....this year.

Well, neither Trevion nor JI were producing consistently before January of their freshman years and Carsen had been benched about 12 games into his freshman season. So your claim that it would be ‘miraculous’ for someone outside of the big three to come on in a significant way is pretty hyperbolic.

 

[Wolegib]

I had thought the concept of playing small ball meant a faster paced offense and an aggressive pressing defense to create more layups and taking outside shots faster.

It appears the Purdue version is the same style as before but with a center who is 7 inches shorter and a 4 that is 3-5 inches shorter.

I’m not really seeing any huge changes from last year on either defense or offense. There are fewer alley oops and lobs inside, but the play looks very similar