Coach Doesn’t Need To Go But He Does Need To Change

[ghostoffatjack]

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcome!

 

[Bigt40s2002]

He needs to GO

 

[pushal]

Purdue has had the same systemic problems under painter: poor at breaking the press, poor 3pt shooting, poor defense (looking lost), and team peaking in January not improving after. Won’t play zone, gets beat by smaller teams...ect

Purdue will not get rid of Painter.

I think Painter needs to be convinced to change, perhaps he needs to be evaluated & mentored by a better coach? Get a Phil Jackson, Brad Stevens, Coach K, on as a consultant to evaluate the program, team and game prep. He needs to hear it from someone better than himself.

 

[steakman765]

He needs to hit the bricks. He’s a stubborn idiot like Keady and just like Keady he won’t ever reach the Final Four.

 

[titaniumbolt]

Purdue has had the same systemic problems under painter: poor at breaking the press, poor 3pt shooting, poor defense (looking lost), and team peaking in January not improving after. Won’t play zone, gets beat by smaller teams...ect

Purdue will not get rid of Painter.

I think Painter needs to be convinced to change, perhaps he needs to be evaluated & mentored by a better coach? Get a Phil Jackson, Brad Stevens, Coach K, on as a consultant to evaluate the program, team and game prep. He needs to hear it from someone better than himself.

I want what this guy is smoking

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Bobinski won't can Painter, but he is owed some detailed explanations and plans for adjustments.

Some questions/issues that have been bugging me:

It is said that Painter has hundreds of sets and counters on offense. But I saw a lot of the same plays over and over each game -- and often following the titanic struggle to get past the timeline and Smith turning his back completely on his defender and the basket in order to get the play call from the bench.

Whenever that occurs I always think of the adage (may have been Pete Newell's) that basketball is the most overcoached and undertaught game that there is.

Anyway, we saw the wheel route with Edey holding the ball at the elbow, the Iverson cut action to get Edey the ball on the block, sending Loyer around and up for a drive, etc. I didn't see a lot of variation -- some nuanced changes to those plays, but a lot of the same every game. Easy to scout, and probably why the head of the Lollipop Guild correctly thought he could beat Purdue.

Boilers had been running a play early in the season where Edey would slip a screen or fake moving up the lane for a dunk off a lob. Maybe the B1G sniffed it out and it was ditched, but it was highly effective. That's just one example.

And if it is indeed so that Painter has so many looks on offense, what is wrong with different looks on defense, particularly with Edey? A 2-3 match-up zone is not difficult to install.

As for the press break, I'm sure it looks aces when the starters are ripping through Barrett, Martin, Waddell, etc., in practice. I am constantly aggravated when a pressing team scores, and the nearest Boiler fails to just grab the ball and inbound, instead waiting for whomever the designated inbounder is while the opponent sets up. Painter is always talking about having guys who can dribble, pass, and shoot, so it shouldn't be a problem to inbound quickly, right? Would it be that much worse than waiting for Morton or Loyer to pass to Smith in the corner?

Bobinski is well within his rights to point to a guy like Jim Harbaugh, who had to concede that his approach wasn't working, which resulted in significant changes to his staff...and two straight appearances in the CFP that followed two straight demolitions of Ohio State.

Painter is a great coach and a great guy, but nobody is infallible and his "process-based" system needs some significant tweaking for success in March.

 

[pushal]

I want what this guy is smoking

I’ll pass it around. But Painter has obviously been stubborn in his ways since these early exits; let’s help him out and show him the way, not as a arm chair internet coach but as a F’N Zen Master, Multi National Championship Basketball God at the Game Coach saying “here’s what YOU need to change”. (Mic drop)

 

[Gman544]

Painter quote after the game is that he will have to “ work harder”. Nice sentiment, but that is not the answer. Working smarter, looking for more recruits who can get their own shots, finding coaches to assist him to teach how to break a press and use as zone as needed ( like last night), even learning how to instill more confidence and passion in his players ( starting with him).

 

[ChoiceBeef]

Still in shock that we lost to a team who was in the tournament on a technicality.

1. Staff and team structure. Painter needs to look at his entire staff and himself and ask if they are building a team to win B1G or be competitive in March.

2. Player conditioning. Loyer was gassed the last month and everyone seemed tired. Part of the reason I don’t get why we tighten the lineup so early.

3. Players - we need to get dudes who can create their own shots. Also need to get away from a team completely built around the low post.

4. Portal - go get some strong physical guards who can ball and are aggressive.

5. Add wrinkles - why don’t we add an element of pressing and trapping? FDU turns the ball over and yet we didn’t force them into those type of plays. Not saying we have to do it every game but be ready and able. Instead of looking stupid out there why not be the team that comes out and shocks the other team with an entirely different game plan? What if the moment they tripled Edey we switched him out and went small ball?

Lastly, remember Painter’s speech after the Illinois game making fun of Internet posters and our thoughts?

 

[wferrel]

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcom

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcome!

You got to try other things if you base defense is giving up layups, short jumpers and threes. Try to take at least one of those away.

 

[pubill]

He needs to hit the bricks. He’s a stubborn idiot like Keady and just like Keady he won’t ever reach the Final Four.

Not going to happen, he is best coach in Big 10, better than Purdue deserves. Go back to your IU board, you finally won a game in the NCAA.

 

[boiler-deuce]

Not going to happen, he is best coach in Big 10, better than Purdue deserves. Go back to your IU board, you finally won a game in the NCAA.

Not the best coach in the Big 10.
Better than we deserve? Wow.
Wishing for a NT makes everyone the fan or Alum of another team? Got it. LOL

 

[DannyGranger]

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcome!

I can agree with that. But all you have to do is listen to painter to know he isn't changing. He's very locked in the corner he's carved out and he's dying on this hill. His post game says it all. No accountability at a higher level.

I'm not on fire painter train, because it's bl not happening. But if he's not aggressively reworking roster with the tools available to him now (transfer portal) without loyalty to players who's ceiling will always crush us in the tournament - then I and everyone should be done with him. By October we will know if he had any capability for change.

If this didn't shock him into change, nothing will ( spoiler - he won't)

 

[MetMyWifeAtHarrys]

Purdue has had the same systemic problems under painter: poor at breaking the press, poor 3pt shooting, poor defense (looking lost), and team peaking in January not improving after. Won’t play zone, gets beat by smaller teams...ect

Purdue will not get rid of Painter.

I think Painter needs to be convinced to change, perhaps he needs to be evaluated & mentored by a better coach? Get a Phil Jackson, Brad Stevens, Coach K, on as a consultant to evaluate the program, team and game prep. He needs to hear it from someone better than himself.

Agreed, but its really not rocket science, is it? When forum anons like us can literally list off sensible ways to improve but he doesn't...its just both odd and maddening. Is he just a doofus in ways we don't consider? I really don't know any more.

 

[MightyMike55]

Here are my thoughts after watching every game this year.

1. We need athletic guards similar to Carson Edwards and Jaden Ivey.

2. We are too predictable on offense and defense. As the season progresses opponents are able to watch Purdue on film and easily figure us out.

3 Painter is stubborn and set in his ways. Adapt and overcome.

4. We looses to teams in the tournament with experienced and athletic guards.

 

[MightyMike55]

I will also add the last half of the season the shooting was horrendous. When Purdue played their best ball, shots were falling from everyone including Furst, Morton, and Newman.

 

[purdave]

Not going to happen, he is best coach in Big 10, better than Purdue deserves. Go back to your IU board, you finally won a game in the NCAA.

We are Purdue fans just like you and we deserve better. Pull your head out of your ass and face reality.

 

[BoilerDeac]

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcome!

He should be head of basketball operations but he can’t remain as coach. Go get Shaka.

 

[Poprudy]

Agreed, but its really not rocket science, is it? When forum anons like us can literally list off sensible ways to improve but he doesn't...its just both odd and maddening. Is he just a doofus in ways we don't consider? I really don't know any more.

Stubbornness

 

[Casey and his Brother]

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcome!

So he needs to go?

 

[titaniumbolt]

Still in shock that we lost to a team who was in the tournament on a technicality.

1. Staff and team structure. Painter needs to go

Fixed it for you

 

[titaniumbolt]

Painter quote after the game is that he will have to “ work harder”. Nice sentiment, but that is not the answer.

Middle school level game plan. Just unbelievable.

 

[pubill]

Not the best coach in the Big 10.
Better than we deserve? Wow.
Wishing for a NT makes everyone the fan or Alum of another team? Got it. LOL

Izzo for his career is better, but NOW, no way, Matt is best coach in BT and it can't be logically argued now.

 

[titaniumbolt]

Lastly, remember Painter’s speech after the Illinois game making fun of Internet posters and our thoughts?

He's very arrogant. That's the only part of his personality I don't like.

 

[boiler-deuce]

Izzo for his career is better, but NOW, no way, Matt is best coach in BT and it can't be logically argued now.

Now? He has never been beaten 3 years in a row by double digit seeds. Never lost to a play in team. He's currently preparing for another game. We're on the couch watching.

 

[Gman544]

Not going to happen, he is best coach in Big 10, better than Purdue deserves. Go back to your IU board, you finally won a game in the NCAA.

Not the best coach in the Big.

 

[jdbrees922]

Good coaches adapt and Painter refuses to adapt. He’s not the best in the Big

 

[tjreese]

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcome!

@pushal Matt tried to implement a 2-3 zone with either AJ and...back when Kendall Stephens played (2014/2015 season). He worked with Basil Mawby in the summer prior to that season, who has always been known to have a good 2-3 zone. I can't tell you what specifics he may have altered if any ...outside defending the triggerman. However, I don't recall Basil defending out of bounds on the baseline how he did it with AJ on the triggerman. That alone led to a last second defeat in Mackey by North Florida wiht a baseline jumper on west side by triggerman . Kansas State with Webber also shred the 2-3 zone where they attacked the "short corner" on left side against Purdue earlier that season. Matt apparently thought with the length he had that a zone would help, but it didn't.

Maybe it might have helped if it was not sooo wide? Matt spread the zone thinking the length could really make the half court a tough D, but it didn't and he soon abandoned it and went to man where Purdue picked up some wins. Anyone that doesn't now recall this can go to the archives and find out what I'm telling you is the truth if it somehow was forgotten. Now I don't recall him playing zone before or after that year, but he did try it. Now, if you or anyone think that is a key and he should try it again, that opinon will find some support from some in the forum...but for the record he did try to implement a 2-3 zone.

As far as a zone press...he as also tried a 1-2-1-1 or 1-2-2 press in the final seconds grasping for a possession. He most recently did that with Isiah Thompson either as a freshman or sophomore. It is not part of Matt's D inside a game, but as a last resort and so he has also had a zone press..."as a last resort" which almost every coach has used sometime. Last nights game was the only run&jump I think Purdue saw this year.

Used to have a video I could show to show the 2-3, but popularity hides many things on the net that will eventually get lost. STill, here is an article written on July 9, 2014 by the Star talking about the zone I mentioned https://www.indystar.com/story/hs-b...ith-matt-painter-about-zone-defense/12415323/

 

[BigRog89]

Lastly, remember Painter’s speech after the Illinois game making fun of Internet posters and our thoughts?

Never try to troll the trolls. We are legion. 😎

 

[ChoiceBeef]

Never try to troll the trolls. We are legion. 😎

Would have loved if someone said “after the Illinois win you mentioned the Internet posters. Those posters mentioned your formula was destined to lose because you refuse to change and act like an idiot. How do you respond to them now? Didn’t you prove FlappyBeefChops6942069 right by refusing to adapt?”

 

[BigRog89]

Would have loved if someone said “after the Illinois win you mentioned the Internet posters. Those posters mentioned your formula was destined to lose because you refuse to change and act like an idiot. How do you respond to them now? Didn’t you prove FlappyBeefChops6942069 right by refusing to adapt?”

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🥰

 

[tjreese]

Whenever that occurs I always think of the adage (may have been Pete Newell's) that basketball is the most overcoached and undertaught game that there is.

And if it is indeed so that Painter has so many looks on offense, what is wrong with different looks on defense, particularly with Edey? A 2-3 match-up zone is not difficult to install.

Read my post in this thread before this when Matt tried to implement a 2-3 zone, but not a match-up. He comes really close to a match-up zone with his switching. FWIW, I like the many teaching things outside of X and Os that are player specific...so many fundamentals...that help individuals gain an advantage inside the play.

 

[Dryfly88]

@pushal Matt tried to implement a 2-3 zone with either AJ and...back when Kendall Stephens played (2014/2015 season). He worked with Basil Mawby in the summer prior to that season, who has always been known to have a good 2-3 zone. I can't tell you what specifics he may have altered if any ...outside defending the triggerman. However, I don't recall Basil defending out of bounds on the baseline how he did it with AJ on the triggerman. That alone led to a last second defeat in Mackey by North Florida wiht a baseline jumper on west side by triggerman . Kansas State with Webber also shred the 2-3 zone where they attacked the "short corner" on left side against Purdue earlier that season. Matt apparently thought with the length he had that a zone would help, but it didn't.

Maybe it might have helped if it was not sooo wide? Matt spread the zone thinking the length could really make the half court a tough D, but it didn't and he soon abandoned it and went to man where Purdue picked up some wins. Anyone that doesn't now recall this can go to the archives and find out what I'm telling you is the truth if it somehow was forgotten. Now I don't recall him playing zone before or after that year, but he did try it. Now, if you or anyone think that is a key and he should try it again, that opinon will find some support from some in the forum...but for the record he did try to implement a 2-3 zone.

As far as a zone press...he as also tried a 1-2-1-1 or 1-2-2 press in the final seconds grasping for a possession. He most recently did that with Isiah Thompson either as a freshman or sophomore. It is not part of Matt's D inside a game, but as a last resort and so he has also had a zone press..."as a last resort" which almost every coach has used sometime. Last nights game was the only run&jump I think Purdue saw this year.

Used to have a video I could show to show the 2-3, but popularity hides many things on the net that will eventually get lost. STill, here is an article written on July 9, 2014 by the Star talking about the zone I mentioned https://www.indystar.com/story/hs-b...ith-matt-painter-about-zone-defense/12415323/

So he tried to implement a zone 9 years ago, didn't know how to do it and hasn't tried it since? That sounds about right. His smug attitude about zone earlier this year in a press conference did it for me.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Izzo for his career is better, but NOW, no way, Matt is best coach in BT and it can't be logically argued now.

It actually can. NCAA success is what determines the greatness of a coach.

Right now, Painter is the Marty schottenheimer of college hoops.

 

[Gman544]

As he has aged Izzo has lost some pizzaz in the last year or two, he hasn’t been to a final four since, gasp, 2019. When did Painter go to his last final four? Izzo made EIGHT final fours, and one NC.

 

[tjreese]

So he tried to implement a zone 9 years ago, didn't know how to do it and hasn't tried it since? That sounds about right. His smug attitude about zone earlier this year in a press conference did it for me.

I don't know that he didn't know how to do it. I imagine he understood i through Basil and then tweaked it in how he thought he could use it. He spent a lot of time with Basil who was known for his 2-3. IMO, I thought it was too stretched, but know his thinking with the length. Bruce really shred it on the short corner with it being spread. I did not like the way the 2-3 played the triggerman and I could see an asst coach go to the head coach to set up the baseline shot that was open due to how AJ was playing the in the North Florida loss.

My point was not get into discussion about zones versus man, but I was a bit taken back that people don't remember that he tried to play a zone before...let alone some specific problems with it. If people want him to play it now...they are entitled to that. I just wanted to clear up a misconception that he has considered and actually played some zone for a few games and actually was in the Indy press because they considered it something newsworthy for readers

 

[BoilerDeac]

His insistence on not ever playing zones full and half reminds me of my HS coach who was a man to man full or half no matter what kinda guy! Zones do many things such as 1) protect a player in foul trouble, 2) allows your team not to be predictable, 3) can frustrate a more athletic team, 4) allows your own players to have their legs late in the GAME and late in the SEASON, 5) makes your own team better by practicing against it!

Will he finally see the light, probably not, but only a fool keeps doing the same things the same way and expect a different outcome!

Nah, he needs to go.

He's had plenty of time to change and adapt.

People can change in that they can become who they truly are. Unfortunately, this is just who Painter is. Time to thank him for everything and move on.

 

[BoilerUpThenHammerDown]

Defense
Ditch the Packline man defense!
What do Purdue and Virginia have in common other losing to a #16?
The Packline Man Defense!

For those that don't know the Packline man to man defense is a type of man defense where the off ball defenders are in a help position and not denial.

It is passive and generates few turnovers but commits few fouls and can give up 3s. Trying to play the Packline with an immobile center at the 5 is unnecessarily difficult. It also allows a less skilled team to get open shots and is not challenging to play against which significantly increases the chance a less skilled opponent can win.

I firmly believe Purdue is so bad against the press and aggressive man to man defense (Rutgers style) because Purdue's own style of defense is a very passive man to man.

So Purdue's players get used to playing against passive defense in summer camp/other practices and then turn into a panicked mess once they face actual aggressive denial defense or a full court press.

Have a summer camp of pressing and press breaking. Over and over again. All man defense must be aggressive denial defense.

Purdue has let opposing coaches dictate the strategy and tactics of important tournament games and Purdue just reacts.

It's time for Purdue to be proactive and be the aggressor and start forcing the opponent to adapt to Purdue's game.

1. Use zone defense as the primary defense. If you want to have star centers that dominate the post on offense then you should use a zone and put your big man in the center
2. Switch between different zone defenses, aggressive man defense & full court press selectively to constantly keep opponents guessing.
3. Stay aggressive, force turnovers and use the bench to outwork the other team with conditioning.

Offense
1. Find more balance between post feeds and pick and roll or zoom actions.
2. Allow the center at the 5 to take more face up jump shots, free throw line extended. Ideally the center can hit open 3s at 33% or higher. This opens up the pick and pop.
3. Dramatically increase the number of different motion sets, plays and formations. Purdue is too much of a sitting target that's easy to scout.
4. Push the ball in transition when favorable and have the big man run the floor as the trailer. Just because you have a big 5 doesn't mean only slow half court offense. Running the fast break with a large center is nearly unstoppable at times. See Shaq highlights at the lakers.

Recruiting
1. Recruit athletic guards!! Find players that can finish at the rim and have excellent ball handling skills.
2. Have the center practice taking shots faced up to the basket.
3. Less emphasis on three point shooting, when you have a team full of players you recruited because of their shooting and they're not shooting well then you're in trouble.
4. Have 1-3 be able to finish at the rim and mid-range, don't become overly reliant on the 3.

Sometimes the biggest declines cause the most improvement.

Concrete steps
1. Hire a Syracuse assistant to help implement zone defense.
2. Hire a full court press specialist assistant.
3. Find athletic guard transfer or recruit

 

[pushal]

Defense
Ditch the Packline man defense!
What do Purdue and Virginia have in common other losing to a #16?
The Packline Man Defense!

For those that don't know the Packline man to man defense is a type of man defense where the off ball defenders are in a help position and not denial.

It is passive and generates few turnovers but commits few fouls and can give up 3s. Trying to play the Packline with an immobile center at the 5 is unnecessarily difficult. It also allows a less skilled team to get open shots and is not challenging to play against which significantly increases the chance a less skilled opponent can win.

I firmly believe Purdue is so bad against the press and aggressive man to man defense (Rutgers style) because Purdue's own style of defense is a very passive man to man.

So Purdue's players get used to playing against passive defense in summer camp/other practices and then turn into a panicked mess once they face actual aggressive denial defense or a full court press.

Have a summer camp of pressing and press breaking. Over and over again. All man defense must be aggressive denial defense.

Purdue has let opposing coaches dictate the strategy and tactics of important tournament games and Purdue just reacts.

It's time for Purdue to be proactive and be the aggressor and start forcing the opponent to adapt to Purdue's game.

1. Use zone defense as the primary defense. If you want to have star centers that dominate the post on offense then you should use a zone and put your big man in the center
2. Switch between different zone defenses, aggressive man defense & full court press selectively to constantly keep opponents guessing.
3. Stay aggressive, force turnovers and use the bench to outwork the other team with conditioning.

Offense
1. Find more balance between post feeds and pick and roll or zoom actions.
2. Allow the center at the 5 to take more face up jump shots, free throw line extended. Ideally the center can hit open 3s at 33% or higher. This opens up the pick and pop.
3. Dramatically increase the number of different motion sets, plays and formations. Purdue is too much of a sitting target that's easy to scout.
4. Push the ball in transition when favorable and have the big man run the floor as the trailer. Just because you have a big 5 doesn't mean only slow half court offense. Running the fast break with a large center is nearly unstoppable at times. See Shaq highlights at the lakers.

Recruiting
1. Recruit athletic guards!! Find players that can finish at the rim and have excellent ball handling skills.
2. Have the center practice taking shots faced up to the basket.
3. Less emphasis on three point shooting, when you have a team full of players you recruited because of their shooting and they're not shooting well then you're in trouble.
4. Have 1-3 be able to finish at the rim and mid-range, don't become overly reliant on the 3.

Sometimes the biggest declines cause the most improvement.

Concrete steps
1. Hire a Syracuse assistant to help implement zone defense.
2. Hire a full court press specialist assistant.
3. Find athletic guard transfer or recruit

This is great analysis...tempted to email the AD

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Nah, he needs to go.

He's had plenty of time to change and adapt.

People can change in that they can become who they truly are. Unfortunately, this is just who Painter is. Time to thank him for everything and move on.

RIGHT ON CUE ! FIRE PAINTER !!