Can you win in WBB these days without a legit Center?

[PurdueTim14]

I know that that the only legit post player that is healthy is a freshman, but playing a 3 guard and 2 PF lineup all of the time means that you're going to get outrebounded by teams like George Washington by 20 and lose by 20 points.

I'm not the coach of this team, but at some point you may have to bite the bullet and play your freshman Center 15-20 minutes a game and have a legit low post offense and allow Bays and Clemons to play their natural positions and allow them the freedom to play their natural games.

And play your star studded freshmen that everybody on this blog raved about. If they're not so great, why not red shirt them?

Boiler Up!

 

[PurdueTim14]

I think SV realizes this, that's why she's recruited three Centers in the 2014 and 2015 classes, one 6'3, one 6'5 and the other 6'6, and they will mature and get better, but until then, this team is going to lose a lot of games.
This post was edited on 11/30 2:33 AM by PurdueTim14

 

[destewart]

We have a 6-5 and 6-3 player in 2014 class and 6-6 in 2015.

 

[PurdueTim14]

whatever, the point is that they're all taller than any of the front court players that Versyp is playing now. This season is a wash to me, she's playing players out of position and too many players that don't know their roles and can't shoot and are still learning the game.

 

[illiniboiler]

Yes my guess now is that we will finish between
5 and 7place with a low NCAA bid or wnit
Next year should be more promising but we
Will miss the experience of bays and
Clemons
Any team with a strong front line this
Year is going to be difficult

 

[WaltV]

I don't think Clemons is playing out of position. Her only offensive strength is close in pivot shots and rebound put-backs.

 

[PurdueTim14]

I think she's playing out of position when she's asked to be the "Center" for this team. A PF maybe, but she's not a dominate "post" player that you keep feeding in the low post like an Issac Haas is for the men's team. She's playing out of position if she's being asked to be a Center for this team, jmho.

 

[WaltV]

I certainly agree that she is not a dominant post player that you keep feeding like Haas; but I feel strongly that if you want her in the starting lineup, the post is the only place where she can contribute. What is the last time you saw her take more than one dribble to drive to the basket? When she is open at the foul line, how likely is she to shoot.? If she does, how likely is she to make the shot?
One of my main criticisms of the Versyp coaching style is that she demands that the players constantly try to feed the post, even when we don't have dominant post players. Our guards, good scorers now for years, pass up open scoring opportunities while trying to get the ball inside. Teams collapse on the post, and we often have turnovers trying to force the ball in or get in a shot clock situation, resulting in bad shots, after our three outside players have passed up good shots. Whitney Bays is very good on the post, but I think she is less effective this year because teams are not respecting our guards like they did KK and Moses. Perry, Wilson, and Morrisette can all shoot the three and can drive and stop to shoot the jump shot. I would like to have them told to "Fire away"!

 

[PurdueTim14]

Couldn't agree more. I think that is my whole point, SV wants to play PF's as legit post players and then her offense dictates that the guards "feed the post" like she has Shacquille O'Neill in the middle. And it gets back to my original statement, can this team win and be a force in the B1G without a legit post player yet act like they do? And to not play your great freshmen class that people on this blog thought were the next coming of the "Fab 5" is mystifying as well. Play your big freshman Center for more than 1-2 minutes a game. Even in a 20 pt blowout none of the freshmen got any playing time that mattered but Keys. Let's see what Horrocks can do in the post.

 

[PurdueTim14]

And can someone please magically turn Bridget Perry into Katie Douglas? Am waiting for Bridget Perry to bust out and be a huge force, but I don't think it's ever going to happen!

 

[Owlbird]

Yes Dorothy you can win without a true post in WBB or MBB.Like Wooden in 1964 use a high post or flash post dribble drive and pass and pop.Full court zone press on D and force turnovers and score in transition.Wooden won with a team of 6'5'-6'5"-6'3"-6'2"-5'11" with 6'6" and 6'3" off the bench and he went 30-0.If you can't recruit to fit your style then you must adapt your offense and defense to fit your players.Something that Sharon and Matt haven't been able to do.They both should have coached under Bill Harrell and Muncie Central(a hated high school rival) who went from a four corner(no post) pass and cut/give and go with a tight zone to a run and gun,high post,fast break with a full court man to man and then to low post(sometimes)double low post lob/alley Oop above the rim with a full court zone press and 1-3-1 half court trap.He won a state title with each team.It always causes me to wonder when a coach recruits players that can't or won't fit their system with no intention of adapting for them.It's the same with football and even baseball.In baseball I would love to have a team of Joe Sewell's who hit 330/340 with 200 hits,80 to 100 walks,who can run and only K like Joe 14 times in 600 at bats and are very good fielders.A team of Joe's might hit fewer home runs than Bonds in one season but with any kind of pitching could win 100 plus games.

 

[oldgoldandblack]

I am having a problem with this statement: "SV wants to play PF's as legit post players ..."

I think that SV wants (and IMO needs) to play her best 5 players and that just happens to include Whitney Bays and Liza Clemons right now. Right now, it does not include Bree Horrocks. I think that anyone who has watched her the time that she has been in knows that she needs more practice before she is ready for the college game.

I think that Coach V would have wanted to play Camille Redmon in the post. In fact, she started her in the post last year and Whitney came off the bench. But Camille graduated and decided that she wanted to go to a school that would accept her into a graduate program.

Coach Versyp sees these girls every day in practice. I trust her to be able to decide when Horrocks is ready for more game time.

I read differing opinions on which freshman was more likely to be able to come in and get minutes as a freshman post player -- Horrocks or Bodnar. That was until Bodnar's injury sidelined her. Unfortunately, due to Bodnar's injury, playing her is not an option. I hope that when she returns to full health, Bodnar is the post player that some think she is. If she is, she will get playing time. I realize that Haley is listed at 6-3 and a forward on Purdue's roster, but Bays and Clemons are listed as 6-2 forwards, so Bodnar might get a shot at playing Center if Horrocks does not develop. We also have a 6-5 Center coming in next year, so its not like Coach Versyp is ignoring the position. Also, as to not playing freshmen, I am not sure, but I think that Erica Moore may also have lingering injury issues that leave her enough less than 100% that she is not playing for that reason.

Finally, to complain that the freshmen did not get playing time in a 20 pt blow out is to ignore that fact that Purdue cut the lead to 8 points several times including with 5 minutes and some seconds to go in the game. If I were coach I would have had my best 5 in the game to try to close the gap and take a chance at winning (even though it did not work and GW closed with an 18-6 run to stretch out the margin to 20). I would not let my main 7 or 8 player rotation cut the opponents lead from 18 or so to 8 with less than 6 minutes to go and then empty my inexperienced bench.

This post was edited on 12/1 9:38 PM by oldgoldandblack

This post was edited on 12/1 9:39 PM by oldgoldandblack

This post was edited on 12/1 9:40 PM by oldgoldandblack

 

[PurdueTim14]

So getting out rebounded by 20 and not playing a true post player is the way to go for this team? Wow! And I disagree with you on not playing Horrocks, how do we know how she will be in a game setting, and the record of this team bears me out. Maybe Bodnar is the better fit right now, hopefully when she's healthy she's allowed to play the post for this team. This is obviously not a team that will go very far this season, that is very obvious at this point, and continually playing people out of position only makes it worse. At least last season they started a legit Center as you say in Redmon who played significant minutes in the post and brought Bays off the bench sometimes, but Redmon decided to move on with still another year of eligibility to purse her Master's degree. Sadly this year Versyp is playing a 3 guard, 2 forward type offense that will spell total disaster when they get into the "meat" of the season against much taller and bigger opposing players unless she finally gets a clue and plays Horrocks or Bodnar significant minutes. And as I've stated there are so many young players this season that this season is a "wash" to me, but it's sad to waste this last season of Bays and Clemons so that Versyp can pretend to have a decent low post offense. "Boiler Up"!

This post was edited on 12/2 1:04 AM by PurdueTim14

This post was edited on 12/2 1:05 AM by PurdueTim14

This post was edited on 12/2 1:07 AM by PurdueTim14

 

[destewart]

Based on what Whitney Jennings is doing at Iowa this board will spend the next four years asking how we could ignore a player of her caliber 40 miles from campus.

 

[GemstateBoiler]

Originally posted by oldgoldandblack:
I am having a problem with this statement: "SV wants to play PF's as legit post players ..."

I think that SV wants (and IMO needs) to play her best 5 players and that just happens to include Whitney Bays and Liza Clemons right now. Right now, it does not include Bree Horrocks. I think that anyone who has watched her the time that she has been in knows that she needs more practice before she is ready for the college game.

I think that Coach V would have wanted to play Camille Redmon in the post. In fact, she started her in the post last year and Whitney came off the bench. But Camille graduated and decided that she wanted to go to a school that would accept her into a graduate program.

Coach Versyp sees these girls every day in practice. I trust her to be able to decide when Horrocks is ready for more game time.

I read differing opinions on which freshman was more likely to be able to come in and get minutes as a freshman post player -- Horrocks or Bodnar. That was until Bodnar's injury sidelined her. Unfortunately, due to Bodnar's injury, playing her is not an option. I hope that when she returns to full health, Bodnar is the post player that some think she is. If she is, she will get playing time. I realize that Haley is listed at 6-3 and a forward on Purdue's roster, but Bays and Clemons are listed as 6-2 forwards, so Bodnar might get a shot at playing Center if Horrocks does not develop. We also have a 6-5 Center coming in next year, so its not like Coach Versyp is ignoring the position. Also, as to not playing freshmen, I am not sure, but I think that Erica Moore may also have lingering injury issues that leave her enough less than 100% that she is not playing for that reason.

Finally, to complain that the freshmen did not get playing time in a 20 pt blow out is to ignore that fact that Purdue cut the lead to 8 points several times including with 5 minutes and some seconds to go in the game. If I were coach I would have had my best 5 in the game to try to close the gap and take a chance at winning (even though it did not work and GW closed with an 18-6 run to stretch out the margin to 20). I would not let my main 7 or 8 player rotation cut the opponents lead from 18 or so to 8 with less than 6 minutes to go and then empty my inexperienced bench.



This post was edited on 12/1 9:38 PM by oldgoldandblack



This post was edited on 12/1 9:39 PM by oldgoldandblack



This post was edited on 12/1 9:40 PM by oldgoldandblack

I watched both games last week and I don't envision our freshmen Miss Horrocks and Miss Hall getting lots of minutes right away. Miss Horrocks' size gave her a huge edge in high school but that isn't the case now. She needs to develop foot work to stay with college posts and that will take some time. Her defense needs a ton of work and that's why she doesn't play more especially with our coach. Before the season I thought Miss Hall would get more minutes but she needs to work on passing and moving without the ball. She looks a bit lost out there in a college team system where all the opponent's players are usually good athletes. Who knows, I may end up wrong...I hope I am. It's early.

That said, I think we are going to suffer this year, player wise, as we just don't have the bodies. Two of our guards are pretty decent but they are trying to take control and because of that they force the issue and try to do too much. Miss Redmon leaving really hurt us. She would have given us 25 minutes a game in the post. She could block shots, rebound and get 10 points per game this year, that hurts on this team. She has started slow at BSU but she did have 17 points off the bench their last game.

If Miss Bodnar ends up coming back and being impressive, that would fill a much needed void. That is more of a wish though as we can't count on it. If not I think we'll have our moments but we will also cringe much this year. It may just be one of those years.
This post was edited on 12/2 9:55 AM by GemstateBoiler

 

[boilerluv]

Well, I'm adjusting my expectations. I thought we would be better than we are showing right now--or, I should say, have shown so far. We do have good freshmen, but *next year's class* is the one that has been ranked #7 in the country, not this year's. Having said that, we still have some really good freshmen this year. The thing is: they are definitely freshmen. Andreona Keys has so far been the best. She is very athletic and can play several positions, including back up point guard if necessary. She plays hard and has no fear. She will get better--they will all get better. I just had not really realized how long it was going to take for them to adjust to the college game; that's always an unknown for freshmen. So--I have adjusted my expectations for this year. I don't think we are going to be in the bottom of the conference--but I doubt if we will be in the top three. I think having Horrocks learn footwork and adjust to the college game and having Bodnar healthy will help a lot, and getting Keys and Hall minutes when possible will also help. Moore has to fully recover from her injury--and maybe lose a little weight and hit the weight room a little more. Even if we don't set the world on fire this season, I'm still in the stands for every game, and I'm a big fan of what I'm calling "The A Team"...April, Ashley, and Andreona. Watch out for those ladies later this season and for the next two or three years. Big things in store from them, IMO.

 

[Boilermakerdad]

Funny that you mention that. I was thinking the same thing before the season started. Bridget is a little like Sam Ostarello in that she doesn't know how good she could be. Wish she had Katie's determination.

 

[pufan73]

I thought there were some injury issues with the freshmen?

 

[WaltV]

Regarding your reference to Moore's weight, I have wondered if she carried that weight when she had such a great junior year or if it materialized as a result of her sitting out last year. Anyone know?

 

[PurdueTim14]

I realize that it's comparing "apples to oranges" but Matt Painter played 4 freshmen last night against NCS and they all played significant minutes. This incoming recruiting class for Versyp was ranked in the top 25 and some ranked it even higher. I myself don't think it's going to turn out to be that great a class, and while it's early, I think SV is discovering that as well. But it might help to at least give them some minutes in real games to see where they stand and give them some experience. For some reason this program has trouble developing and keeping great pure "low post" "wide bodies" and great shooting guards. They get good fast, sometimes out of control PG's and wing players but there are some definite pieces missing to this team this year.

 

[GemstateBoiler]

Originally posted by PurdueTim14:

I realize that it's comparing "apples to oranges" but Matt Painter played 4 freshmen last night against NCS and they all played significant minutes. This incoming recruiting class for Versyp was ranked in the top 25 and some ranked it even higher. I myself don't think it's going to turn out to be that great a class, and while it's early, I think SV is discovering that as well. But it might help to at least give them some minutes in real games to see where they stand and give them some experience. For some reason this program has trouble developing and keeping great pure "low post" "wide bodies" and great shooting guards. They get good fast, sometimes out of control PG's and wing players but there are some definite pieces missing to this team this year.

Just to follow you, you're talking about the current freshman class, not the "incoming" 2015 class correct?

So are the women apples or are they oranges?

I still give this current roster some leeway. The coach is challenging and calling them out more than I have ever seen from her. If she gets their attention, we still could be good. Time will tell how they respond.

 

[GemstateBoiler]

Originally posted by WaltV:

Regarding your reference to Moore's weight, I have wondered if she carried that weight when she had such a great junior year or if it materialized as a result of her sitting out last year. Anyone know?

Someone who posts here saw her a lot in high school and thought she would be an impact player even after the injury. I figure it's related to that injury situation.

 

[destewart]

Totally left handed. Watched her all night and she can't get her shot off unless wide open. Can't play the tight side of the court because she dribbles and shoots exclusively with her left hand.