Can one recruit change a program

[gelesen]

as much as Bryant at IU. I can't recall a team going from a lackluster season to next year a consensus preseason top 15 team based on getting one significant recruit. They say he may be as good as Vonleh. Well he lead the Hoosiers to a 17-15, 7-11 season. It never ceases to amaze me how any negative history on their part is somehow purged from memory. Two so-so season in a row, add one bigtime recruit and they may just add that 6th banner. (If that ever happened I wonder if they would leave an appropriate space (30 years) between 5 and 6 when they hang it? I just read 2 articles today on how next year is going to be special. I guess it'll make their failure to reach their lofty/unrealistic goals that much more fun to watch.
I now expect to be criticized on the board about these comments and how they do have all the pieces and how we are the only team in the country that needs a point guard(despite the fact we have about 4 candidates already on the roster) and how we are the only team in the country that loses recruits to other schools.

 

[Sennsational1]

i agree but haven't taken time to post it. Players and coaches always expect the best I guess. I think the media hype is just undo hype. However iu still has a huge fan base so putting them higher gets their fans talking watching and increasing viewership. It's a money thing in my opinion

 

[mathboy]

as much as Bryant at IU. I can't recall a team going from a lackluster season to next year a consensus preseason top 15 team based on getting one significant recruit. They say he may be as good as Vonleh. Well he lead the Hoosiers to a 17-15, 7-11 season. It never ceases to amaze me how any negative history on their part is somehow purged from memory. Two so-so season in a row, add one bigtime recruit and they may just add that 6th banner. (If that ever happened I wonder if they would leave an appropriate space (30 years) between 5 and 6 when they hang it? I just read 2 articles today on how next year is going to be special. I guess it'll make their failure to reach their lofty/unrealistic goals that much more fun to watch.
I now expect to be criticized on the board about these comments and how they do have all the pieces and how we are the only team in the country that needs a point guard(despite the fact we have about 4 candidates already on the roster) and how we are the only team in the country that loses recruits to other schools.

I gott'a tell you, I am bored with this sh-t. Let's talk about our team, eh?

 

[SNU0821]

as much as Bryant at IU. I can't recall a team going from a lackluster season to next year a consensus preseason top 15 team based on getting one significant recruit. They say he may be as good as Vonleh. Well he lead the Hoosiers to a 17-15, 7-11 season. It never ceases to amaze me how any negative history on their part is somehow purged from memory. Two so-so season in a row, add one bigtime recruit and they may just add that 6th banner. (If that ever happened I wonder if they would leave an appropriate space (30 years) between 5 and 6 when they hang it? I just read 2 articles today on how next year is going to be special. I guess it'll make their failure to reach their lofty/unrealistic goals that much more fun to watch.
I now expect to be criticized on the board about these comments and how they do have all the pieces and how we are the only team in the country that needs a point guard(despite the fact we have about 4 candidates already on the roster) and how we are the only team in the country that loses recruits to other schools.

I think I questioning the articles when you think in terms of adding just one recruit is understandable. However, when you look at the whole picture it seems to be a possibility. Think about the situation when Zeller came in as a freshman. IU had a ton of weapons on that team even though they were pretty average the year before, it just lacked a big man. Zeller came in and completed the team. Thinking about it that way, seems to make sense that it could be a possibility. Our team defense has to improve before we can be serious about anything "special" next year, but we'll have the weapons and the talent though.

 

[SNU0821]

I gott'a tell you, I am bored with this sh-t. Let's talk about our team, eh?

I think it's crazier to think about Wisky being ranked next year considering how much they lost. I mean I know Bo is a great coach and hasn't finished below 4th in the B10, but this year just seems different.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

as much as Bryant at IU. I can't recall a team going from a lackluster season to next year a consensus preseason top 15 team based on getting one significant recruit. They say he may be as good as Vonleh. Well he lead the Hoosiers to a 17-15, 7-11 season. It never ceases to amaze me how any negative history on their part is somehow purged from memory. Two so-so season in a row, add one bigtime recruit and they may just add that 6th banner. (If that ever happened I wonder if they would leave an appropriate space (30 years) between 5 and 6 when they hang it? I just read 2 articles today on how next year is going to be special. I guess it'll make their failure to reach their lofty/unrealistic goals that much more fun to watch.
I now expect to be criticized on the board about these comments and how they do have all the pieces and how we are the only team in the country that needs a point guard(despite the fact we have about 4 candidates already on the roster) and how we are the only team in the country that loses recruits to other schools.

Remember, part of the hype at IU is because of the two three stars they're bringing in, one of whom is the 119th ranked player and the other, who according to some Pigsty prognosticators, is the next Victor Oleodeepo.

 

[gelesen]

I gott'a tell you, I am bored with this sh-t. Let's talk about our team, eh?

 

[seminolesboilers]

not to worry...IU will lose the last game they play next season. Bet the house on that...

 

[gelesen]

Mathboy, I'd like to just talk about our team and be optimistic about it but everytime some get's positive it seems someone shoots it down. Like we don't have PG, or Thompson can't handle the position, Mathias is to slow, we can't land a recruit and on and on. You just can't get anything positive rolling here unlike some other sites.

 

[Inspector100]

Mathboy, I'd like to just talk about our team and be optimistic about it but everytime some get's positive it seems someone shoots it down. Like we don't have PG, or Thompson can't handle the position, Mathias is to slow, we can't land a recruit and on and on. You just can't get anything positive rolling here unlike some other sites.

I feel your pain, however, the comments from the others shouldn't be taken so seriously. Some of the doubters don't understand and get caught up in negatives. It can be human nature to them. And some are favoring other basketball programs with their favorite pass time to try to humiliate the fans of their rival. You can be part of the silent majority that let's them go off on any topic with an interest to derail your passion. I can disagree with your thoughts, but not your passion. That is what counts the most. Don't let it get to you.

 

[BoilerFred42]

Every year, they talk about how it is their year to hang a banner. Hell I remember them saying the Movement was good for at least three. They are the most dillusional fan base in sports.

 

[Hoogolf]

Every year, they talk about how it is their year to hang a banner. Hell I remember them saying the Movement was good for at least three. They are the most dillusional fan base in sports.

We've been ranked behind Bama FB & UK Basketball for the past 3-4 years. I'm sure we'll be on that list again, but at least we were listed with other great programs. KU BB, UNC BB and UF & ND football were the next top delusional fan bases behind IU. Pretty good company if you ask me. .

Believe it's a bleacher report poll each year.

 

[mathboy]

Mathboy, I'd like to just talk about our team and be optimistic about it but everytime some get's positive it seems someone shoots it down. Like we don't have PG, or Thompson can't handle the position, Mathias is to slow, we can't land a recruit and on and on. You just can't get anything positive rolling here unlike some other sites.

I know what you mean. There are plenty of "experts" that make declarations about certain kids and they really don't know what they are talking about.

For example, considering all the health problems Mathias had last year, it is a wonder his conditioning and speed allowed him to play at this level. He not only played, but won a starting position by mid-year. His defense improved steadily also. We really haven't seen Mathias at full-speed yet, but there are plenty who have already decided that he is too slow based on his injury-influenced freshman year.

Octeus wasn't especially fast. He was a very crafty dribbler, who could get by defenders reliably in the back court. He did it with hesitation and misdirection. When he would do it, it was a thing of beauty. He really did not have LewJack speed. He was also a great rebounding guard. That we will miss. Can PJ take his place? Maybe, if he learned how to be craftier with the dribble. PJ also has better foot speed than Octeus, so it is possible we will not see a big drop off at PG as some might think.

I also think Painter will bring in another ball handling guard. He needs that crafty dribble and that attentive intelligence on the court. Keep in mind that those qualities can be learned by our current players. Next year's team will not be as young as this past year's team. We were starting 2-3 freshmen last year at times! (Mathias, Haas, and Edwards). 2016, we are going to be very good as a team.

See? That was easy.

 

[jimmygoiu]

Remember, part of the hype at IU is because of the two three stars they're bringing in, one of whom is the 119th ranked player and the other, who according to some Pigsty prognosticators, is the next Victor Oleodeepo.

Have you even seen them play? Bryant is a McD AA and is the real deal. JMorgan is a worker who does all the little things that knowledgable fans appreciate. He will play 8-10 minutes this year, but he will contribute. OG is in a crowded roster position, but I am optimistic about his future. IU returns our top 8 rotation players, and did make the Dance. Bryant fills a real need. I am not sure why you are the way you are, Knight is long gone.

 

[SIBoiler2]

I think I questioning the articles when you think in terms of adding just one recruit is understandable. However, when you look at the whole picture it seems to be a possibility. Think about the situation when Zeller came in as a freshman. IU had a ton of weapons on that team even though they were pretty average the year before, it just lacked a big man. Zeller came in and completed the team. Thinking about it that way, seems to make sense that it could be a possibility. Our team defense has to improve before we can be serious about anything "special" next year, but we'll have the weapons and the talent though.

You fail to credit Zeller with being a polished 5 star big man that had spent his entire childhood being schooled by two other 5 star big men on his own court at home. I also believe Zeller was made that IU team good not the coach. Zeller's limited development at IU was not due to coaching. If anything he was improperly used by Crean. Most IU fans also fail to credit Zeller for being the reason a lot of his teammates came to IU and the fact he was more of the glue that held them together than any other person paid or otherwise on that team. He was a good kid from a good family with a solid background and people liked to be around him and play with him. He was unselfish and kept the rest of the team on an even keel. I'll be VEEERRRRRYYYY surprised if Bryant has similar success especially as a freshman. I'm betting Yogi will show him what selfish is.

 

[mathboy]

You fail to credit Zeller with being a polished 5 star big man that had spent his entire childhood being schooled by two other 5 star big men on his own court at home. I also believe Zeller was made that IU team good not the coach. Zeller's limited development at IU was not due to coaching. If anything he was improperly used by Crean. Most IU fans also fail to credit Zeller for being the reason a lot of his teammates came to IU and the fact he was more of the glue that held them together than any other person paid or otherwise on that team. He was a good kid from a good family with a solid background and people liked to be around him and play with him. He was unselfish and kept the rest of the team on an even keel. I'll be VEEERRRRRYYYY surprised if Bryant has similar success especially as a freshman. I'm betting Yogi will show him what selfish is.

IU was one Zeller from the cellar.

 

[jadeezra]

You fail to credit Zeller with being a polished 5 star big man that had spent his entire childhood being schooled by two other 5 star big men on his own court at home. I also believe Zeller was made that IU team good not the coach. Zeller's limited development at IU was not due to coaching. If anything he was improperly used by Crean. Most IU fans also fail to credit Zeller for being the reason a lot of his teammates came to IU and the fact he was more of the glue that held them together than any other person paid or otherwise on that team. He was a good kid from a good family with a solid background and people liked to be around him and play with him. He was unselfish and kept the rest of the team on an even keel. I'll be VEEERRRRRYYYY surprised if Bryant has similar success especially as a freshman. I'm betting Yogi will show him what selfish is.

Lol besides the fact that you are spot on with the Zeller stuff....You just made me spit my coffee out with that last sentence

 

[SNU0821]

You fail to credit Zeller with being a polished 5 star big man that had spent his entire childhood being schooled by two other 5 star big men on his own court at home. I also believe Zeller was made that IU team good not the coach. Zeller's limited development at IU was not due to coaching. If anything he was improperly used by Crean. Most IU fans also fail to credit Zeller for being the reason a lot of his teammates came to IU and the fact he was more of the glue that held them together than any other person paid or otherwise on that team. He was a good kid from a good family with a solid background and people liked to be around him and play with him. He was unselfish and kept the rest of the team on an even keel. I'll be VEEERRRRRYYYY surprised if Bryant has similar success especially as a freshman. I'm betting Yogi will show him what selfish is.

Zeller was a polished 5* big man and I don't think Bryant will be nearly as good. I do think he fills the same hole/weakness that Zeller did for his team. We don't need Bryant to come in and average 15/6 or 16/8 like Zeller did. We need him to play good defense without fouling (biggest need IMO), rebound and be able to get points in the paint in a one on one situation occasionally. And Bryant is ranked 27th in his class. It's not like he's 80th or 100th. The kid has skill. He's 6'11 230lbs. He'll be able to provide exactly what we need.

But I have no problem admitting that Zeller was/is Crean's biggest recruit at IU. If he didn't land Zeller, he may not be our coach. And you're right that players did come to IU because of Zeller. No shame in that. The good news for IU is that there have been postings/articles on Bryant being a very good "locker room/chemistry guy." Coaches said he just fits in. He knows he's not going to come in and put up 20 points a night. He knows what he needs to do to help the team win. He sounds like exactly what we need on the court and off the court.

 

[boiler_pride]

Although not reflected in pre-season rankings. I'd argue the recruitment of Octeus had a huge impact on our program last year. Without him, I'm pretty sure we don't make it to the NCAA tournament and probably finish in the bottom half of the B1G which could have gotten Coach Painter fired.

Crean hopes he found his Octeus in Bryant. I don't know about the lofty expectations but they do have pretty decent pieces in place. Can Crean get the best out of that crew? That has yet to be seen. I personally don't think Crean is as good as Zeller/Oladipo made him look, but he's not as bad as some of the armchair coaches here (and elsewhere) think.

 

[jadeezra]

Snu question how is Devin Davis doing and is he going to be playing next year? I think he is the forgotten person in all this, as he was coming on strong season before at the end.

I'm not going to sit here and be a complete homer. With hanner, the new guy and Davis that should be plenty enough to put Indiana top 25 alot of if and buts for the top ten stuff. Although imo its a possibility.

With that said Purdue gets no respect again, and I kinda like it that way.

 

[scottm.gjr]

To answer the original question I would say Yes...1 recruit can make a huge difference in a program. I hate to admit it, but IU will be a very good team next year with the addition of Bryant. However, I still think Purdue will be better than IU. I would rank Purdue around 20 and IU 23 in my preseason poll.

Consider this...if Purdue added a 5 star pg (our biggest position of need) wouldn't it make a huge impact on our team? Of course it would! IU adding a 5 star center (their biggest position of need) will make a big impact unless Bryant is a total flop.

 

[SNU0821]

To answer the original question I would say Yes...1 recruit can make a huge difference in a program. I hate to admit it, but IU will be a very good team next year with the addition of Bryant. However, I still think Purdue will be better than IU. I would rank Purdue around 20 and IU 23 in my preseason poll.

Consider this...if Purdue added a 5 star pg (our biggest position of need) wouldn't it make a huge impact on our team? Of course it would! IU adding a 5 star center (their biggest position of need) will make a big impact unless Bryant is a total flop.

If you guys added a 5* PG, I'd put you all in the Top 10.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Yes @ Purdue it would......because we have a good coach.........@ other schools it might or might not. And when coaching is so woeful it would matter only when the player is just spectacular and you have enough senior leadership around to overcome bad coaching....we will see?

Could you imagine Purdue with a top 20 in the nation PG next year and Painter as coach? I think that might matter a lot!!!.....so like with Hummel - yes after he left there was a BIG difference.

 

[Upright Hoosier]

I guess it depends on how you define "changing a program". I think it's hard to say one guy can change a program (or it's rare, at least), but I'm defining "program" as more than just a single season; "program" would have to be a decided uptick over a stretch of a few years. I absolutely think one player can change the synopsis/expectation for a single season though, particularly when said player is your best incoming recruit and is being inserted into your weakest spot on floor.

From an IU standpoint, obviously Zeller was clearly a season changer. And maybe I'm biased, but I also think he's one of the better examples of a program changer in college basketball in the last 10 years. His commitment to IU almost came across as a stamp of approval that it's OK for top-rated kids to choose IU again. And it was all gravy that was also from Indiana to boot.

To a degree, I think he gets some of that notoriety a little unjustly because of the fact that his time overlapped with Victor, who did his fair share of shaping how outside, unbiased people viewed IU/Crean at the time. Victor was perceived to be the epitome of a low-ranked, hard-working kid with all sorts of athleticism and character that young people are drawn to. For Crean, this was his 2nd recruit to come from nowhere to be a lottery pick. The IU brand was re-energized, and the combination of those guys helped to hit the reset button on IU being a going-nowhere program to one that is appealing again and back in the national discussion.

As I said, I think to call someone a program changer, it kind of has to permeate the culture of the team for more than just their time there. I'm hopeful (and more optimistic than pessimistic) that their influence continues for IU, but it certainly remains to be seen over the next few years if Victor/Cody really changed the program. For example, was IU's complete lack of success the year after those 2 left an anomaly, or is IU just a team that registers 20 wins, barely makes the NCAA cut, and gets bounced early from the tournament? Time will tell, but I think in a few years, we'll look back and call them program changers.

Note: I guess your timeframe for analysis is important too, so I should say that I'm looking at this as "program changing" given that my starting point for measurement is the Sampson debacle.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I guess it depends on how you define "changing a program". I think it's hard to say one guy can change a program (or it's rare, at least), but I'm defining "program" as more than just a single season; "program" would have to be a decided uptick over a stretch of a few years. I absolutely think one player can change the synopsis/expectation for a single season though, particularly when said player is your best incoming recruit and is being inserted into your weakest spot on floor.

From an IU standpoint, obviously Zeller was clearly a season changer. And maybe I'm biased, but I also think he's one of the better examples of a program changer in college basketball in the last 10 years. His commitment to IU almost came across as a stamp of approval that it's OK for top-rated kids to choose IU again. And it was all gravy that was also from Indiana to boot.

To a degree, I think he gets some of that notoriety a little unjustly because of the fact that his time overlapped with Victor, who did his fair share of shaping how outside, unbiased people viewed IU/Crean at the time. Victor was perceived to be the epitome of a low-ranked, hard-working kid with all sorts of athleticism and character that young people are drawn to. For Crean, this was his 2nd recruit to come from nowhere to be a lottery pick. The IU brand was re-energized, and the combination of those guys helped to hit the reset button on IU being a going-nowhere program to one that is appealing again and back in the national discussion.

As I said, I think to call someone a program changer, it kind of has to permeate the culture of the team for more than just their time there. I'm hopeful (and more optimistic than pessimistic) that their influence continues for IU, but it certainly remains to be seen over the next few years if Victor/Cody really changed the program. For example, was IU's complete lack of success the year after those 2 left an anomaly, or is IU just a team that registers 20 wins, barely makes the NCAA cut, and gets bounced early from the tournament? Time will tell, but I think in a few years, we'll look back and call them program changers.

Note: I guess your timeframe for analysis is important too, so I should say that I'm looking at this as "program changing" given that my starting point for measurement is the Sampson debacle.

I would say this is a great synopsis of what I would feel would be a great answer to the original question. I would add that Glenn Robinson was that type of player at Purdue. Sure, Purdue was a good program but with GRob coming to campus, it put Purdue on the map and set them up for success throughout the mid-90's and be at least in the discussion nationally about making deep tourney runs. He created a buzz in the program that left wakes up until the early 2000's. Zeller seems to have been that type of player but I'm not sure Crean was able to maintain that type of buzz with the immediate downfall the last two years (very similarly to Purdue after the 3 amigos left).

If a top 20 player chose Purdue in the next season or two as a PG/combo guard to come in with the pieces that are currently in place, that is the type of player that can change a program. If Coach Painter can get a quality 5th year transfer to come in and stabilize the PG position and really be the piece that pushes Purdue into an Elite 8 or Final 4, it would be the same IMO. That one player was a key piece in changing the program.

 

[Da_Bull]

Every year, they talk about how it is their year to hang a banner. Hell I remember them saying the Movement was good for at least three. They are the most dillusional fan base in sports.

No you don't remember any rational person saying that, although that class was still a severe disappointment. I'd imagine Purdue could go from where they are to projected top 10-15 if they added a 5* PG, hell they add a solid 5th transfer and they'll be knocking on the top 15. Bryant just happens to fill a big need for Indiana with weapons at the other positions. Now they are still projections and mean very little once the ball hits the court in the fall.