Calipari (& co.) coaching CE

[nagemj02]

Since John Calipari has stated that he's primarily playing Carsen Edwards as a 1, do you think that CMP and staff are paying attention and taking notes as to how he's coaching him?

Even if you hate Calipari and believe that he used to (or still does?) use his connections in a sophisticated way to basically cheat (i.e. getting top prospects at UMass, Memphis, and Kentucky), you still can't argue with the actual results: combined, the teams he's coached at all three schools have appeared in 6 Final Fours, 3 National Title games, and won 1 National Title under him.

 

[JohnHoosierr]

Had the same thought. Obviously this is a home board and unbiased opinions are few and far in between but its not even an argument that cal is the superior coach. Carsen is definitely better suited as a one then an undersized 2 who doesn't have the ball in his hands enough.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Had the same thought. Obviously this is a home board and unbiased opinions are few and far in between but its not even an argument that cal is the superior coach. Carsen is definitely better suited as a one then an undersized 2 who doesn't have the ball in his hands enough.

You are comparing two different teams or two different rosters more specifically. If Painter had the U19 roster at Purdue it is highly likely he also would bring CE off the bench as the point. What you really want to say is that you think Purdue should use a dribble drive offense instead of the offense it does use.

 

[boilerbusdriver]

I always thought Carsen could be like a poor mans Jalen Brunson from Villanova, Carsen is 2" shorter but both have quickness, drive and shoot, both have great hops, where Brunson excels is decision making, he has been playing point all thru HS and college. That doesn't mean that Edwards couldn't grow into that position from practice and playing time.

Then does Nojel also learn the 2 along with playing point, I would think he might even play a little 3 in his career at PU. It's a nice position to be in having talented and flexible players willing to learn, and help the team out!

 

[BBG]

You are comparing two different teams or two different rosters more specifically.

This. It really is kind of an apples to oranges comparison between team and the players on them.

 

[boilerzz]

It doesn't matter whether Carsen plays the one or the two. Purdue runs a motion offense. He will certainly be defending point guards when playing alongside everyone but PJ.

As with Smooge, if Carsen is our most consistent playmaker, he will have the ball in his hands. He just has to make that jump.

 

[SIBoiler2]

Since John Calipari has stated that he's primarily playing Carsen Edwards as a 1, do you think that CMP and staff are paying attention and taking notes as to how he's coaching him?

Even if you hate Calipari and believe that he used to (or still does?) use his connections in a sophisticated way to basically cheat (i.e. getting top prospects at UMass, Memphis, and Kentucky), you still can't argue with the actual results: combined, the teams he's coached at all three schools have appeared in 6 Final Fours, 3 National Title games, and won 1 National Title under him.

So what is the question? Is it "Are CMP and staff watching how CE is being coached because they're not capable on their own" or Are CMP and staff watching how cheating pays and learning how Cal is so successful?"

 

[mathboy]

It doesn't matter whether Carsen plays the one or the two. Purdue runs a motion offense. He will certainly be defending point guards when playing alongside everyone but PJ.

As with Smooge, if Carsen is our most consistent playmaker, he will have the ball in his hands. He just has to make that jump.

I think ZZ has it right. The position CE plays is situational. On this U19 team, he is one of the most experienced guards so Calipari has him as the primary play maker on a young and inexperienced squad. The Purdue team is far more mature and experienced, so CE's role may be a bit different. However, don't loose sight of the fact that the motion offense takes a lot of he differentiation of positions 1-4 out of the game. No matter who brings the ball up, Purdue's guards all are play-makers and passers.

 

[Gemini95]

Even if you hate Calipari and believe that he used to (or still does?) use his connections in a sophisticated way to basically cheat (i.e. getting top prospects at UMass, Memphis, and Kentucky), you still can't argue with the actual results: combined, the teams he's coached at all three schools have appeared in 6 Final Fours, 3 National Title games, and won 1 National Title under him.

Actually considering all the talent he's had that's kind of a shitty record. I would have guessed much higher on all those numbers.

 

[mathboy]

Actually considering all the talent he's had that's kind of a shitty record. I would have guessed much higher on all those numbers.

You've got a good point here. However, it might also show that regardless of talent (always high on Calipari's teams), and regardless of coaching (arguably Calipari is considered by many to be a high end coach), making the FF and winning the NC is still a crap shoot.

 

[BoilerDeac]

I always thought Carsen could be like a poor mans Jalen Brunson from Villanova, Carsen is 2" shorter but both have quickness, drive and shoot, both have great hops, where Brunson excels is decision making, he has been playing point all thru HS and college. That doesn't mean that Edwards couldn't grow into that position from practice and playing time.

Then does Nojel also learn the 2 along with playing point, I would think he might even play a little 3 in his career at PU. It's a nice position to be in having talented and flexible players willing to learn, and help the team out!

I actually think Carsen is more explosive than Brunson. Brunson is a PG - through and through. Not overly athletic, and not great size, but his skill is off the charts, and way higher than Carsen's current skill level.

Carsen's decision making will need to increase greatly before he is handed the keys. That said, I'm all for letting him make and learn from his mistakes!

 

[KentuckyBoiler]

Actually considering all the talent he's had that's kind of a shitty record. I would have guessed much higher on all those numbers.

He always has a majority of his roster of one and dones each year. They never get a chance to gel as a team. You are also talking about kids that have always been the playmakers on their HS teams, so they don't know how to play team ball. To win the tournament, this is usually done by teams that have experienced players along with freshman talent.

 

[bnsummers]

You've got a good point here. However, it might also show that regardless of talent (always high on Calipari's teams), and regardless of coaching (arguably Calipari is considered by many to be a high end coach), making the FF and winning the NC is still a crap shoot.

Well according to some on this and the pay site, if we had a better coach, we would be in the FF on a yearly basis and already have a bushel of NC's......

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Since John Calipari has stated that he's primarily playing Carsen Edwards as a 1, do you think that CMP and staff are paying attention and taking notes as to how he's coaching him?

Even if you hate Calipari and believe that he used to (or still does?) use his connections in a sophisticated way to basically cheat (i.e. getting top prospects at UMass, Memphis, and Kentucky), you still can't argue with the actual results: combined, the teams he's coached at all three schools have appeared in 6 Final Fours, 3 National Title games, and won 1 National Title under him.

From what I saw of the game the other day, Calipari doesn't use CE much differently than Painter. If anything, he has less freedom with Calipari.

 

[BBG]

Well according to some on this and the pay site, if we had a better coach, we would be in the FF on a yearly basis and already have a bushel of NC's......

And he would cure male pattern baldness, leprosy and colonize Mars over the weekend. And since CMP can do none of those, he should be fired immediately!

 

[tjreese]

You are comparing two different teams or two different rosters more specifically. If Painter had the U19 roster at Purdue it is highly likely he also would bring CE off the bench as the point. What you really want to say is that you think Purdue should use a dribble drive offense instead of the offense it does use.

You saved me a lot of typing...two different teams and rules

 

[Dakota Girl]

You've got a good point here. However, it might also show that regardless of talent (always high on Calipari's teams), and regardless of coaching (arguably Calipari is considered by many to be a high end coach), making the FF and winning the NC is still a crap shoot.

But it's (an NC) the only acceptable outcome. All else is failure...right?

 

[Dakota Girl]

You saved me a lot of typing...two different teams and rules

It's all I set out to accomplish

 

[proudopete]

And he would cure male pattern baldness, leprosy and colonize Mars over the weekend. And since CMP can do none of those, he should be fired immediately!

Not without a zone defense, he won't.

 

[Wolegib]

I can see both C Edwards and Eastern being talented enough to play both positions. I have to believe instead of one set starting line-up that goes out and the starters all play 25-30 minutes at the same position, we'll see a lot of different match-ups during the year

I have to believe C Edwards lost playing time down the stretch because Painter felt he couldn't risk his mistakes. And he found out, although Edward's replacement didn't make as many mistakes, that Purdue as a team actually lost by making fewer mistakes, because it also allowed the other team to make more plays. . If Edwards had played more minutes down the stretch, would Purdue have won those games? I don't have the answer. but some times you need that player who makes more mistakes, because he also creates more plays as well.

A question I raise. Do you see the possibility if PJ and Edwards were both in the backcourt at the same time, or if PJ and Eastern were both in the backcourt at the same time, and our opponent had a big and fast PG, would Painter put Edwards or Eastern on defense against that guard? I ask this because I've seen successful teams always put their best defender on a team's top guard regardless of what position he played. and teams would then switch on defense and offense all the time.

I'm a BIG Mil Bucks fan. and many people claim that Giannis is the Bucks' real pg. But he never defends the other team's guards. So is it possible Painter would put C Edwards on defending the other team's best guard regardless of who he is playing with?

 

[Heller]

He always has a majority of his roster of one and dones each year. They never get a chance to gel as a team. You are also talking about kids that have always been the playmakers on their HS teams, so they don't know how to play team ball. To win the tournament, this is usually done by teams that have experienced players along with freshman talent.

Calipari recruits one and dones and Kentucky sets them up with minimal class schedules. So if that isn't working then stop doing it and recruit more three and four year traditional student athletes. But he sure can't use it as an excuse for not winning.

 

[boilerbusdriver]

I can see both C Edwards and Eastern being talented enough to play both positions. I have to believe instead of one set starting line-up that goes out and the starters all play 25-30 minutes at the same position, we'll see a lot of different match-ups during the year

I have to believe C Edwards lost playing time down the stretch because Painter felt he couldn't risk his mistakes. And he found out, although Edward's replacement didn't make as many mistakes, that Purdue as a team actually lost by making fewer mistakes, because it also allowed the other team to make more plays. . If Edwards had played more minutes down the stretch, would Purdue have won those games? I don't have the answer. but some times you need that player who makes more mistakes, because he also creates more plays as well.

A question I raise. Do you see the possibility if PJ and Edwards were both in the backcourt at the same time, or if PJ and Eastern were both in the backcourt at the same time, and our opponent had a big and fast PG, would Painter put Edwards or Eastern on defense against that guard? I ask this because I've seen successful teams always put their best defender on a team's top guard regardless of what position he played. and teams would then switch on defense and offense all the time.

I'm a BIG Mil Bucks fan. and many people claim that Giannis is the Bucks' real pg. But he never defends the other team's guards. So is it possible Painter would put C Edwards on defending the other team's best guard regardless of who he is playing with?

Edwards and Eastern will be lights out in 2 years!

Now back to the topic, I believe Eastern can get quicker on defense after a season of training and playing, his body will certainly change..they all do. Carsen is a stud, his lateral quickness is very good when he is really locked in, he would be my defensive "guy" on any PG, barring another Magic Johnson playing in the game.

 

[tjreese]

I can see both C Edwards and Eastern being talented enough to play both positions. I have to believe instead of one set starting line-up that goes out and the starters all play 25-30 minutes at the same position, we'll see a lot of different match-ups during the year

I have to believe C Edwards lost playing time down the stretch because Painter felt he couldn't risk his mistakes. And he found out, although Edward's replacement didn't make as many mistakes, that Purdue as a team actually lost by making fewer mistakes, because it also allowed the other team to make more plays. . If Edwards had played more minutes down the stretch, would Purdue have won those games? I don't have the answer. but some times you need that player who makes more mistakes, because he also creates more plays as well.

A question I raise. Do you see the possibility if PJ and Edwards were both in the backcourt at the same time, or if PJ and Eastern were both in the backcourt at the same time, and our opponent had a big and fast PG, would Painter put Edwards or Eastern on defense against that guard? I ask this because I've seen successful teams always put their best defender on a team's top guard regardless of what position he played. and teams would then switch on defense and offense all the time.

I'm a BIG Mil Bucks fan. and many people claim that Giannis is the Bucks' real pg. But he never defends the other team's guards. So is it possible Painter would put C Edwards on defending the other team's best guard regardless of who he is playing with?

If you are playing a team you are very capable of beating in a close contest...mistaked can hurt big time. If you are a huge underdog you need that magic moment because consistency may not matter as much as that one super game

 

[SIBoiler2]

From what I saw of the game the other day, Calipari doesn't use CE much differently than Painter. If anything, he has less freedom with Calipari.

What kind of sacrilegious tripe are you spewing? To imply that the great Cal is not handling CE in a manner far superior to the way Matt does is akin to saying you don't understand the vast superiority of zone D over all others.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Actually considering all the talent he's had that's kind of a shitty record. I would have guessed much higher on all those numbers.

UMass and Memphis weren't exactly blue blood programs when he showed up. But to your point, he should have more than 1 title at UK by now.

 

[BoilerAndy]

UMass and Memphis weren't exactly blue blood programs when he showed up. But to your point, he should have more than 1 title at UK by now.

And they were completely disgraced by the time he bailed out of those programs.

This is not directed at you New Pal: To hold Cal up as a model for what Painter should be like is an extreme example of someone needing to attach themselves to a winner because they don't think they can be one on their own..

 

[nagemj02]

Actually considering all the talent he's had that's kind of a shitty record. I would have guessed much higher on all those numbers.

6 Final Fours, 3 Title Game Appearances, 1 National Title > 0 Final Fours, 0 Title Game Appearances, 0 National Titles

 

[boilersallthewaynow]

6 Final Fours, 3 Title Game Appearances, 1 National Title > 0 Final Fours, 0 Title Game Appearances, 0 National Titles

Its safe and cozy to have CMP and besides at Purdue we're just a bunch of settlers.

No way that we can do better than Matt Painter, anyway. It's simply impossible.

Oh, and programs that make it to Final Fours and play for national championships and win national championships must cheat to do it .
They have to be cheating. Why? Because here at Purdue we don't cheat and we can't get to a Final Four so our failure must be that the other schools just have to be cheating otherwise we would have to reevaluate ourselves and how we do things and commit to climbing higher.
Yea, all of the filthy programs that win gotta be cheating otherwise CMP would get 'er done.
I mean really just look at the long list of schools that are on NCAA probation for cheating and playing in the Final Four.
The list is staggering.

No,moderate aspirations in Purdue basketball call for a coach precisely like Painter.

He's safe, conservative, slightly above average and would make a great accountant.

A settler's dream come true.

An occasional Sweet Sixteen and a Big championship/decade is the ceiling with CMP.

Prove me wrong Matt. Do something that breaks the mold.

Living the dream baby.

 

[Dakota Girl]

I can see both C Edwards and Eastern being talented enough to play both positions. I have to believe instead of one set starting line-up that goes out and the starters all play 25-30 minutes at the same position, we'll see a lot of different match-ups during the year

I have to believe C Edwards lost playing time down the stretch because Painter felt he couldn't risk his mistakes. And he found out, although Edward's replacement didn't make as many mistakes, that Purdue as a team actually lost by making fewer mistakes, because it also allowed the other team to make more plays. . If Edwards had played more minutes down the stretch, would Purdue have won those games? I don't have the answer. but some times you need that player who makes more mistakes, because he also creates more plays as well.

A question I raise. Do you see the possibility if PJ and Edwards were both in the backcourt at the same time, or if PJ and Eastern were both in the backcourt at the same time, and our opponent had a big and fast PG, would Painter put Edwards or Eastern on defense against that guard? I ask this because I've seen successful teams always put their best defender on a team's top guard regardless of what position he played. and teams would then switch on defense and offense all the time.

I'm a BIG Mil Bucks fan. and many people claim that Giannis is the Bucks' real pg. But he never defends the other team's guards. So is it possible Painter would put C Edwards on defending the other team's best guard regardless of who he is playing with?

Yes. I"d bet that once we get to a CE / NE starting back court (assuming 18-19 season) they will always attempt to keep the best defensive matchup situation as you suggest. That will be an excellent 1-2 combo pair with differing physical traits and fantastic positional flexibility.
Wheeler will have great 3-4 flexibility as well.

 

[BoiledSteel]

Its safe and cozy to have CMP and besides at Purdue we're just a bunch of settlers.

No way that we can do better than Matt Painter, anyway. It's simply impossible.

Oh, and programs that make it to Final Fours and play for national championships and win national championships must cheat to do it .
They have to be cheating. Why? Because here at Purdue we don't cheat and we can't get to a Final Four so our failure must be that the other schools just have to be cheating otherwise we would have to reevaluate ourselves and how we do things and commit to climbing higher.
Yea, all of the filthy programs that win gotta be cheating otherwise CMP would get 'er done.
I mean really just look at the long list of schools that are on NCAA probation for cheating and playing in the Final Four.
The list is staggering.

No,moderate aspirations in Purdue basketball call for a coach precisely like Painter.

He's safe, conservative, slightly above average and would make a great accountant.

A settler's dream come true.

An occasional Sweet Sixteen and a Big championship/decade is the ceiling with CMP.

Prove me wrong Matt. Do something that breaks the mold.

Living the dream baby.

It's hate filled, lack-of-bigger-picture-vision posts like these that make me ever so glad that people like you are not the AD at Purdue. You would of hired someone like Tom Crean and taken the basketball program to the dark ages.

 

[proudopete]

Its safe and cozy to have CMP and besides at Purdue we're just a bunch of settlers.

No way that we can do better than Matt Painter, anyway. It's simply impossible.

Oh, and programs that make it to Final Fours and play for national championships and win national championships must cheat to do it .
They have to be cheating. Why? Because here at Purdue we don't cheat and we can't get to a Final Four so our failure must be that the other schools just have to be cheating otherwise we would have to reevaluate ourselves and how we do things and commit to climbing higher.
Yea, all of the filthy programs that win gotta be cheating otherwise CMP would get 'er done.
I mean really just look at the long list of schools that are on NCAA probation for cheating and playing in the Final Four.
The list is staggering.

No,moderate aspirations in Purdue basketball call for a coach precisely like Painter.

He's safe, conservative, slightly above average and would make a great accountant.

A settler's dream come true.

An occasional Sweet Sixteen and a Big championship/decade is the ceiling with CMP.

Prove me wrong Matt. Do something that breaks the mold.

Living the dream baby.

We could of course be like IU and go through 3 coaches without any success in our quest for the "better coach".

 

[Gemini95]

6 Final Fours, 3 Title Game Appearances, 1 National Title > 0 Final Fours, 0 Title Game Appearances, 0 National Titles

you figure that out all by yourself?

 

[Gemini95]

Its safe and cozy to have CMP and besides at Purdue we're just a bunch of settlers.

No way that we can do better than Matt Painter, anyway. It's simply impossible.

Oh, and programs that make it to Final Fours and play for national championships and win national championships must cheat to do it .
They have to be cheating. Why? Because here at Purdue we don't cheat and we can't get to a Final Four so our failure must be that the other schools just have to be cheating otherwise we would have to reevaluate ourselves and how we do things and commit to climbing higher.
Yea, all of the filthy programs that win gotta be cheating otherwise CMP would get 'er done.
I mean really just look at the long list of schools that are on NCAA probation for cheating and playing in the Final Four.
The list is staggering.
.

Nice strawman/false dichotomy.

 

[Dakota Girl]

you figure that out all by yourself?

I doubt it.

 

[BoiledSteel]

6 Final Fours, 3 Title Game Appearances, 1 National Title > 0 Final Fours, 0 Title Game Appearances, 0 National Titles

Then go root for them. Nothing is stopping you and you probably would be happier with your life.

 

[JohnHoosierr]

You are comparing two different teams or two different rosters more specifically. If Painter had the U19 roster at Purdue it is highly likely he also would bring CE off the bench as the point. What you really want to say is that you think Purdue should use a dribble drive offense instead of the offense it does use.

No. I said what i meant. Carsen needs to be a one.

 

[proudopete]

No. I said what i meant. Carsen needs to be a one.

Didn't Painter say something last summer about starting him out at the two and possibly developing him into the point as his career progressed?

PJ has been pretty solid his entire career and his defense isn't horrible. Sure he can get burned from time to time. I am not sure it happens very often however. Perhaps Painter will run them 50/50 at the one and let Carsen take the start next year?

It's a good problem to have. I remember when we had Eldridge and White. Both great guys and decent players, yet neirher could take the team on their shoulders. I feel we have several players who can do that this season.

 

[Tkal05]

My take is Cal (a coach Carsen likely wanted to play for) has more or less had the same message to Carsen as Painter. Pay attention to detail, play solid D, make good decisions and take your shots when they are there.

If this experience reinforced those messages and Carsen really buys in he's gonna have a heck of a career, regardless of position.

That said, I hope he gets plenty of minutes at point.

 

[Dakota Girl]

No. I said what i meant. Carsen needs to be a one.

He can play both the 1 and the 2, and he will. He and Eastern will eventually share the two positions and the team will be very good because of it.

 

[jadeezra]

6 Final Fours, 3 Title Game Appearances, 1 National Title > 0 Final Fours, 0 Title Game Appearances, 0 National Titles

I'd bet the farm that Painter with Calaparis rosters would have better results than this. I don't even feel its debatable, but if you want higher ranked recruits by cheap tactics then you're rooting for the wrong school.