Big Dog or Biggie..
- Thread starter *4purdue*
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This was a great win for the Boilers and had me super excited for the matchup with Duke. However, after watching this replay, it appears to me that this game helped determine our fate the following Saturday. Roy Williams threw everything at us including his deep roster in an attempt to win. Our team played so hard getting a double digit lead in the Duke game that fatigue set in and along with GROB's sore back, we didn't have enough to overcome them.
Perhaps, but perhaps not.
I saw Dog, I saw Mount, I saw Maravich, I saw Alcindor and I'm far for certain that Glenn was the best of those.
He was a wonderful player but generational bias always clouds it when the discussion moves to the best ever.
There are those athletes that are just transcendent and stand out but it's always difficult to compare differing time frames.
As to GRob and Biggie, at this point it's no contest in my mind, and I suspect that even if Biggie stayed for an additional year (or even two) it would be a more reasonable comparison, but I don't see Biggie passing him even in that situation.
Had Kevin Garnett played in college, he would have been a GRob type player in college. 6'10, handled it like a small forward, could step out and hit a long jumper, and take people off the dribble. I saw him play for Faragut (Chicago) during the Proviso West Holiday Tourney...most unfair thing I have ever witnessed on a basketball court. He played so smoothly and with a fluidity for a guy near 7 foot that it made it like watching a ballet dancer. He was something else to behold and you just knew he was going to be special.
However, I wish I could have watched The Pistol in person. I probably watched that movie 200 times and did his ball handling drills from a VCR in my garage 1000x. Even wore the floppy socks and high top chucks when I started playing in 4th grade!
Who in the last thirty years compares to big dog in college?
Durant and Carmelo are the only players I remember being as dominant. Here are their last year stats for comparison.
Durant:
26 ppg
11 Rpg
40% 3pt
47% fg
1.9 bpg
1.9 spg
Carmelo:
22 ppg
10 Rpg
33% 3pt
45% fg
.9 bpg
1.6 spg
Big dog:
30 ppg
10 Rpg
38% 3pt
48% fg
.9 bpg
1.6 spg
Durant and Carmelo are the only players I remember being as dominant. Here are their last year stats for comparison.
Durant:
26 ppg
11 Rpg
40% 3pt
47% fg
1.9 bpg
1.9 spg
Carmelo:
22 ppg
10 Rpg
33% 3pt
45% fg
.9 bpg
1.6 spg
Big dog:
30 ppg
10 Rpg
38% 3pt
48% fg
.9 bpg
1.6 spg
I remember Garnett's senior year Farragut was ranked #1 in Illinois. Farragut included Ronnie Fields in addition to Garnett. Peoria Manual was ranked #2 and was defending State Champion. This was the final year the tournament was held at U of I before moving to Peoria. Farragut and Manual were in opposite brackets so everyone was looking forward to them meeting for the title. In the Quarter Finals Farragut played Harvey Thornton whose roster included future NFLers Tai Streets and Antwan Randle-El and Farragut lost to Thornwood. Manual did their part and won the Title which was their 2nd of 4 straight titles. While Garnett was the best high school player in the State that season (and Country) he failed to make the All Tournament Team.
Glenn was ineligable his freshman year...so for comparison sake, Glenn/soph yr = Biggie/fresh yr. In other words their first year playing was SO/Glenn & FR/Biggie...Glenn's JR year = Biggie's SO year. I love Biggie...he's great, but unless he averages 30pts/10reb & leads the B1G in both, he still is a notch below Glenn Robinson.
It is really hard to make comparisons like this because Glenn is 2 years older than Caleb at this point in their college careers. So make sure you consider this as you compare away.
Not really because Biggie came in and was 17 when he started at Purdue...so really this year would be like Glenn's sophomore year. If Biggie were to stay, he would be the preseason B1G POY and preseason Consensus AA...if he continued on his same path.
The thing is...I'm going to enjoy watching Biggie every game as he is simply fun to watch. It's like Brian Cardinal with more athleticism.
He's on pace to achieve both of those this year.
Biggie is my favorite player, and so was Big Dog.
Loved his stats
62 games. 27.5 ppg. 9.7 rpg. 1.4 apg
But...really? Best ever?
Oscar Robertson
88 games. 33.8 / 15.2 / 4.8
Lew Alcindor
88 games. 26.4 / 15.5
Bill Russell
79 games. 20.7 / 20.3
Wilt Chamberlain
48 games. 29.9 / 18.3
Jerry West
93 games. 24.8 / 13.3 / 2.8
Elvin Hayes
93 games. 31.0 / 17.2
Larry Bird
94 games. 30.3 / 13.3 / 4.6
Tom Gola
115 games. 27.5 / 19.1
Wes Unseld
82 games. 20.6 / 18.9
Pete Maravich
83 games. 44.2 / 6.5 / 4.1
and of course
Terry Dischinger
70 games. 28.3 / 13.7
The fact of the matter is, those players aren't from the same era. College basketball players continued to get stronger, and bigger, and better. Even with that considered, teams didn't have a player who could shut down the Big Dog. Every time he stepped on the court, it appeared he was a man among boys. I believe he was the best ever, and it was reflected by the contract he received leaving college (the best ever).
I was comparing year to year... I specifically said if Biggie comes back his jr year. If he does and averages 25 & 15 & takes us to the Final 4, I think there is a comparison. I think most would think he was better if he gets us to a F4. He'll be an All American for sure.
That contract was a major sore spot for Glenn's acceptance by Milwaukee fans. They thought it was outrageous and hamstringed the team from a salary cap position. As great as many of you remember him at Purdue, here are the 3 things most Bucks fans remember him for: 1) Great catch and shoot, maybe the best in these parts, 2) dribbling the ball off his foot, happened way too many times, 3) poor defensive player. How a player who played for Keady could be so poor defensively in the pros, always puzzled me. Unfortunately, he was all too often referred to as the "Big Dud" when he played here. So my view is tarnished a bit from most Purdue fans.
Let me guess that you are 40ish or under and never saw any of the people listed actually play. True or false?
I also saw Mount, Maravich, Alcindor and Robinson, plus all others between and since, and no one stands anywhere near Alcindor (who later became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) -- 88-2 with three NCAA championships in his three years while averaging 26 points and 15 boards. Singular impact on the game? His mere presence got the dunk outlawed for 10 years, including his time at UCLA.
I loved watching Glenn, but he finished his two-year career by losing to Grant Hill in the Elite Eight. And Robinson would’ve had to average 61.7 points per game for 10 more games just to tie Mount’s career scoring average, and Mount’s junior team was the NCAA runner-up. And Joe Barry Carroll led his senior team to third place in the NCAA. But none of them can top Wooden’s three straight years as an All-American while also leading Purdue to its one and only national title. Then he won 10 more NCAAs in a 12-year span, including the three with “Lewis.”
Anyone has to love Caleb and his rebounding efforts -- haven’t seen such individual devotion and crowd focus on board work since Rodman was grabbing Jordan’s misses -- but Swanigan has a long way to go before gaining mention among our all-time greats. Numbers of a half-career aside, he’s not won a Big Ten title or even one NCAA game.
Appreciate his efforts, but don’t place him on Rushmore for feasting on smallish cupcakes that his predecessors never tasted. Norfolk and Western is more famous as a defunct railroad. If Swanigan can dominate in the Big Ten as other Purdue greats have -- like Dischinger, Schellhase, etc. -- then we can start some legit comparisons.
Meanwhile, let him breathe, and enjoy the ride.
Good analysis. I just hope that at the end of his career at Purdue, we can all agree that he deserves to be listed among the all-time great players.
Only a foamer works a railroad analogy into that, and mentions Norfolk and Western..lol
It's was primarily the Glenn and Cuonzo show. I think the rest of the team had like 8 points. Glenn over 40 and Zo over 30. Quite the dynamic duo.
Haha, I had to look that up. I guess I'm a foamer too. NW (Wabash) ran through the family farm. My Dad went to Purdue. Love the train logo. Btfu!
As soon as Biggie can dominate a top team with the talent of the Fab 5, he can be put into that conversation. I still believe if GR hadn't hurt his back before the Duke game in '94, Purdue would have gone to the final four.
IMO, Biggie has more talent around him than Bigdog had.
More talent around Swanigan? C’mon, man. Robinson (one Big Ten title) played with juniors Cuonzo Martin and Matt Waddell (two Big Ten titles) and sophomores Brandon Brantley, Porter Roberts, Justin Jennings, Herb Dove and Todd Foster (three Big Ten titles).
That class of sophomores with Robinson won three consecutive undisputed Big Ten championships -- accomplished one other time in league history -- against the Fabs of Michigan, the Gabs of Indiana and a dozen first-round draft picks. Twice they earned No. 1 seeds in the NCAA after being ranked among the nation’s top five teams. Can’t do all that without outstanding talent and a helluva coach.
If Swanigan’s teammates can accomplish another Three-Pete -- three straight Big Ten banners -- we’ll talk again, because “more talent” can only be measured by actual performance. Otherwise the 1977-1978 Boilers would beat them all.
He does have more talent around him, which is why he doesn't have to dominate games. He's also just a Soph. & age wise, a freshman. If he comes back next year, he's in the conversation. Also, Purdue beat the fab 5 at Michigan the year that Big Dog had to sit.
Purdue beat the Fab 5 at UM when all of them and Big Dog were JR's...on CBS National TV...Big Dog took the game over with 1:30 to go and stole the game.
After the dunk, when Glenn starts the stare down, Ostertag says something to diffuse the situation....cracks Glenn up...would love to know what he said....
Yes, you are so right in that Todd Foster and Herb Dove would light up everyone on this team. I think that Roy Hairston, Chad Austin and Brad Miller helped 94-95 and 95/96 teams more than Dove and Foster, but I'm sure you are right since Foster and Dove had more titles, they were more talented.
I'm sure Bigdog couldn't carry either Dove's or Foster's jock straps, since both of them won more Big Ten titles than he did.
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IIRC Ostertag said something like "you got me" and big dog said "I know" and they laughed. That may not be word for word but it was something like that.
And watching the second half, Ostertag played possessed and got the better of Big Dog a couple times. Let's not get too infatuated with "the look."
So now you’re comparing Robinson to his own teammates, and picking the two part-timers to boot, but, yes, Dove and Foster could lights out anyone on the current team.
Both were far better defenders than anyone around now. The two had 68 steals in their 32 games as seniors. The current team has 75 all together through 14 games, and no one with more than 16. And, for the record, these two part-timers also combined for over 13 points per game as seniors, while neither Hairston nor Miller averaged above double digits through 1996, and young Austin often was a turnover-prone chucker, threes and swayback hall aside.
Dove and Foster were key contributors in the Class of ’96 that won an unprecedented three straight outright Big Ten championships. Their triple diamond rings certainly light up better than little rocks.
I am sure you are right in that if Dove and Foster played together, they could beat Austin, or Miller or Hairston in a 2 on 1 game and for that matter, could lights out anyone on the current team. I guess I was confused in thinking it was a 1 on 1 comparison.
So if you compare Doves or Fosters stats with Hairston or Millers or Austins stats, they might finish ahead in the steals category or minutes on the bench. Not close in the points/gm, rebs or assists, but they were lights out better than all three of the players that I mentioned.
Lights out!
They also beat them @ UM in '92 when big dog didn't qualify. Also, it was the fab 4 in '94 when Glenn won the game at UM, Weber was already in the NBA.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/purdue/1992-schedule.html
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Both were better defenders for sure than anyone on this team (Mathias rapidly improving), HOWEVER, Dove was a huge liability on offense. Sure the guy could jump through the roof but Keady's only instruction to him was not to shoot the ball.
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