backcourt play

[nagemj02]

I was looking around the 'net to get my college basketball fix and I found an Iowa "Hawkeye Nation" podcast. They had a recent one where they talked about the B1G next season and had something to say about every team. They briefly talked about Purdue. While I don't agree with their projections for next season's team and also think they failed to give some of the returning players their due diligence, I do take into consideration one of the guy's comments about the backcourt being relatively weak overall (compared to other B1G teams). They seemed to think that this is what will hold the team back from being a really good or great team next season.

I think it's a valid concern and as the NCAA Tournament game vs. Cincinnati showed, it is certainly a weakness at times. Octeus played okay and rebounded well in that game and Davis (if you want to consider him as part of the backcourt) also rebounded well, but other than that, it was a poor offensive performance overall from the guards (and guard/wing Davis). Obviously, the PG position is still being recruited but besides that, do you think the backcourt returnees (plus Cline and Weatherford) have what it takes to improve considerably (particularly offensively) next season?

Here is a link to that podcast. They start talking about Purdue at 20:21: http://hawkeyenation.com/basketball/hn-pod-2015-2016-b1g-hoops-preview

 

[TwinDegrees2]

I was looking around the 'net to get my college basketball fix and I found an Iowa "Hawkeye Nation" podcast. They had a recent one where they talked about the B1G next season and had something to say about every team. They briefly talked about Purdue. While I don't agree with their projections for next season's team and also think they failed to give some of the returning players their due diligence, I do take into consideration one of the guy's comments about the backcourt being relatively weak overall (compared to other B1G teams). They seemed to think that this is what will hold the team back from being a really good or great team next season.

I think it's a valid concern and as the NCAA Tournament game vs. Cincinnati showed, it is certainly a weakness at times. Octeus played okay and rebounded well in that game and Davis (if you want to consider him as part of the backcourt) also rebounded well, but other than that, it was a poor offensive performance overall from the guards (and guard/wing Davis). Obviously, the PG position is still being recruited but besides that, do you think the backcourt returnees (plus Cline and Weatherford) have what it takes to improve considerably (particularly offensively) next season?

Here is a link to that podcast. They start talking about Purdue at 20:21: http://hawkeyenation.com/basketball/hn-pod-2015-2016-b1g-hoops-preview

It's evident that the staff might be a bit concerned, but I think with Davis, PJ, and hopefully Weatherford the PG position will work itself out. Hopefully there's lots of work being done in off season practices and scrimmages.

 

[mathboy]

I was looking around the 'net to get my college basketball fix and I found an Iowa "Hawkeye Nation" podcast. They had a recent one where they talked about the B1G next season and had something to say about every team. They briefly talked about Purdue. While I don't agree with their projections for next season's team and also think they failed to give some of the returning players their due diligence, I do take into consideration one of the guy's comments about the backcourt being relatively weak overall (compared to other B1G teams). They seemed to think that this is what will hold the team back from being a really good or great team next season.

I think it's a valid concern and as the NCAA Tournament game vs. Cincinnati showed, it is certainly a weakness at times. Octeus played okay and rebounded well in that game and Davis (if you want to consider him as part of the backcourt) also rebounded well, but other than that, it was a poor offensive performance overall from the guards (and guard/wing Davis). Obviously, the PG position is still being recruited but besides that, do you think the backcourt returnees (plus Cline and Weatherford) have what it takes to improve considerably (particularly offensively) next season?

Here is a link to that podcast. They start talking about Purdue at 20:21: http://hawkeyenation.com/basketball/hn-pod-2015-2016-b1g-hoops-preview

I think in their position, I would agree with their assessment. We had problems against the press, and our outside shooting did not strike fear into any coach. However, if you breakdown those weaknesses, you might have reason to hope.

Let's discount any unknown new additions of experienced guards to the core of last year's team. If we look at just the kids returning, you can figure a couple things out that the Iowa crowd doesn't know.

First, Octeus was a crafty dribbler, but did not have the foot speed to break the press by himself. The team needs to learn to do this as a team and not to depend on a single ball handler to break it. The team will be practicing press breaking regularly this fall. They will see the press as long as it is successful against them. They know this. It is no mystery. Breaking the press does not require special talent, just good team work - it can be learned and performed by even the slowest of teams.

Outside shooting is going to improve by leaps this year - my prediction. Both of our best shooters were injured last year. Stephens was our leading scorer before he got his hand injured. I expect him to return to form. He is a special shooter, and we are going to see him light it up this year. Mathias is also a great shooter who was also hit with the injury bug last year. Expect him to drill it consistently next year. Davis and Edwards will both improve next year and will be capable of drilling the 3-pt shot as well. Cline will add to that deadly shooting capability we will put on the court. Weakness erased.

Mathias, Cline, Edwards, and Stephens will have a height advantage in almost every game. That should not be discounted. I do think that PJ can be an acceptable PG, but I really like taller guards for defensive reasons. However, I think we still have enough talent on the team right now to whip Iowa next year, convincingly.

 

[SNU0821]

I was looking around the 'net to get my college basketball fix and I found an Iowa "Hawkeye Nation" podcast. They had a recent one where they talked about the B1G next season and had something to say about every team. They briefly talked about Purdue. While I don't agree with their projections for next season's team and also think they failed to give some of the returning players their due diligence, I do take into consideration one of the guy's comments about the backcourt being relatively weak overall (compared to other B1G teams). They seemed to think that this is what will hold the team back from being a really good or great team next season.

I think it's a valid concern and as the NCAA Tournament game vs. Cincinnati showed, it is certainly a weakness at times. Octeus played okay and rebounded well in that game and Davis (if you want to consider him as part of the backcourt) also rebounded well, but other than that, it was a poor offensive performance overall from the guards (and guard/wing Davis). Obviously, the PG position is still being recruited but besides that, do you think the backcourt returnees (plus Cline and Weatherford) have what it takes to improve considerably (particularly offensively) next season?

Here is a link to that podcast. They start talking about Purdue at 20:21: http://hawkeyenation.com/basketball/hn-pod-2015-2016-b1g-hoops-preview

It's hard to argue with them at this point. Clearly you all are more optimistic on the development of Stephens, Mathias and Thompson more so than others (all fans are optimistic about their own players developing) and their shooting improving. But from an outside perspective at this point, it's tough to look at your guard situation and think they'll be able to run the show as well as last year with the loss of Octeus. That doesn't mean they won't be able to handle it, but at this point, I think that's where non Purdue fans get stuck when trying to figure out where to place Purdue.

 

[SNU0821]

Mathias, Cline, Edwards, and Stephens will have a height advantage in almost every game. That should not be discounted.

I don't think you should really overrate it, either. It doesn't have that much impact, IMO.

 

[mathboy]

I don't think you should really overrate it, either. It doesn't have that much impact, IMO.

When a 6'6" guard plays a 6' 0" guard, he will always be able to get a reasonably good jump shot over the top of the little guy. He will also be able to alter the shot or force the little guy to move and shoot. The percentage is in favor of the taller player. The smaller player must be considerably more skilled than the taller player to be effective.

 

[SNU0821]

When a 6'6" guard plays a 6' 0" guard, he will always be able to get a reasonably good jump shot over the top of the little guy. He will also be able to alter the shot or force the little guy to move and shoot. The percentage is in favor of the taller player. The smaller player must be considerably more skilled than the taller player to be effective.

That's the case when it comes to Yogi being considerably more skilled. Yogi > Mathias/Stephens/Thompson. I don't really think you can argue that one. Yogi has always played against taller guards and has done well. I mean he was 1st Team All B10. Again, not an issue.

 

[since1980]

We don't have an alpha guard who we all want the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. If you look at most teams who make final fours, they always have at least 1 guard that isn't afraid to take over a game when needed...whether that is making plays for himself or others. Most of those teams have 2 guards who are capable of being the man when it matters. I would say the main difference between us and Michigan State last year was Travis Trice. He made plays when it counted and was always aggressive towards the end of games....while our guards don't seem to be killers when the game is on the line. Bronson Koenig is also a killer for Wisconsin, even though he plays more within the Wisky system. Duke's guards were killers, even though they had a top 5 NBA draft pick center.

There is no reason Ray Davis couldn't be a killer if he wanted to be, especially his senior season. He has the size and skill, but I'm not sure if it is a system thing afraid of making mistakes or just his personality that he is inconsistent. Octeus was a nice player last year, but he wasn't a killer or a playmaker that could beat you multiple ways when it mattered. He played within the system at all times, almost to a fault. The difference in the Cincy game was they had guards at the end of the game that made plays and we didn't (Mathias almost did with his shooting).

We can probably get by in the BIG 10 season playing good defense and knocking down outside shots with the group we have coming back just like Purdue always does, but when it comes to tournament time (crunch time), you need playmaking guards to make a deep run. Hopefully some guys step up, otherwise I think next year will be very similar to how this year played out. You can't rely on 3 point shooting (see IU).

 

[SNU0821]

We don't have an alpha guard who we all want the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. If you look at most teams who make final fours, they always have at least 1 guard that isn't afraid to take over a game when needed...whether that is making plays for himself or others. Most of those teams have 2 guards who are capable of being the man when it matters. I would say the main difference between us and Michigan State last year was Travis Trice. He made plays when it counted and was always aggressive towards the end of games....while our guards don't seem to be killers when the game is on the line. Bronson Koenig is also a killer for Wisconsin, even though he plays more within the Wisky system. Duke's guards were killers, even though they had a top 5 NBA draft pick center.

There is no reason Ray Davis couldn't be a killer if he wanted to be, especially his senior season. He has the size and skill, but I'm not sure if it is a system thing afraid of making mistakes or just his personality that he is inconsistent. Octeus was a nice player last year, but he wasn't a killer or a playmaker that could beat you multiple ways when it mattered. He played within the system at all times, almost to a fault. The difference in the Cincy game was they had guards at the end of the game that made plays and we didn't (Mathias almost did with his shooting).

We can probably get by in the BIG 10 season playing good defense and knocking down outside shots with the group we have coming back just like Purdue always does, but when it comes to tournament time (crunch time), you need playmaking guards to make a deep run. Hopefully some guys step up, otherwise I think next year will be very similar to how this year played out. You can't rely on 3 point shooting (see IU).

E'twaun Moore was the epitome of this. He was cold as ice and I felt like he always hit the big shots.

 

[GodFamilyCountryPurdue]

We don't have an alpha guard who we all want the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. If you look at most teams who make final fours, they always have at least 1 guard that isn't afraid to take over a game when needed...whether that is making plays for himself or others. Most of those teams have 2 guards who are capable of being the man when it matters. I would say the main difference between us and Michigan State last year was Travis Trice. He made plays when it counted and was always aggressive towards the end of games....while our guards don't seem to be killers when the game is on the line. Bronson Koenig is also a killer for Wisconsin, even though he plays more within the Wisky system. Duke's guards were killers, even though they had a top 5 NBA draft pick center.

There is no reason Ray Davis couldn't be a killer if he wanted to be, especially his senior season. He has the size and skill, but I'm not sure if it is a system thing afraid of making mistakes or just his personality that he is inconsistent. Octeus was a nice player last year, but he wasn't a killer or a playmaker that could beat you multiple ways when it mattered. He played within the system at all times, almost to a fault. The difference in the Cincy game was they had guards at the end of the game that made plays and we didn't (Mathias almost did with his shooting).

We can probably get by in the BIG 10 season playing good defense and knocking down outside shots with the group we have coming back just like Purdue always does, but when it comes to tournament time (crunch time), you need playmaking guards to make a deep run. Hopefully some guys step up, otherwise I think next year will be very similar to how this year played out. You can't rely on 3 point shooting (see IU).

You must have forgotten all of the big shots Ray made last year with time winding down either on the game clock or shot clock. He made at least 5-10 big shots with a buzzer going off (or with a few seconds on the clock).

 

[mathboy]

That's the case when it comes to Yogi being considerably more skilled. Yogi > Mathias/Stephens/Thompson. I don't really think you can argue that one. Yogi has always played against taller guards and has done well. I mean he was 1st Team All B10. Again, not an issue.

Agree about Yogi. Very skilled. However, I think you have to look at both JBJ and Yogi. They got their points, but they were unable to engage the rest of the team in the game, and I will bet (too lazy to look up) that their shooting % was down from their average - I contend it was the taller guards that caused them problems, both shooting and passing.

Yogi had to drive around the taller guards, and use his mid-range game to score. He probably didn't hit too many 3's. I wil also bet Yogi's assist totals were lower. Do you have access to the box score for the two games? Maybe you could look that up and see if this is just in my imagination or not.

 

[SNU0821]

Agree about Yogi. Very skilled. However, I think you have to look at both JBJ and Yogi. They got their points, but they were unable to engage the rest of the team in the game, and I will bet (too lazy to look up) that their shooting % was down from their average - I contend it was the taller guards that caused them problems, both shooting and passing.

Yogi had to drive around the taller guards, and use his mid-range game to score. He probably didn't hit too many 3's. I wil also bet Yogi's assist totals were lower. Do you have access to the box score for the two games? Maybe you could look that up and see if this is just in my imagination or not.

I can tonight/tomorrow morning. I'll try and put something together. From memory, he shot terribly at Purdue. At IU he shot close to his average IIRC. Not sure about assists, but I would guess he had more at IU.

 

[IndianapolisHoops]

I don't think you should really overrate it, either. It doesn't have that much impact, IMO.

Snu, being an IU guy you probably heard Bob Knight say "Basketball is not a short man's game." It's the reason he recruited Steve Alford over Darrin Fitzgerald. It's the reason why Donnie Walsh took Reggie Miller over the aforementioned Alford. It's far from the only factor, but it is a significant factor in the game of basketball. It's not nearly everything, but it is a thing as the OP said.

Side note, Darrin Fitzgerald was 5'9 and made 158 threes in a season at Butler, which I believe was the first season the three point line was in existence. (He held that record until some guard from Davidson broke it. I think he plays for the Warriors now?) He still has the record for threes per game at 5.6. Next closest? Less than 5.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

I can tonight/tomorrow morning. I'll try and put something together. From memory, he shot terribly at Purdue. At IU he shot close to his average IIRC. Not sure about assists, but I would guess he had more at IU.

Y Ferrell's stats from the two Purdue games this year:

@ Purdue:

9-20 FG/1-6 (3pt)
2-3 FT
1 Rebound
3 assists
1 steal
2 TO's
3 PF's
21 pts

@ Indiana:

7/15 FG/3-7 (3pt)
4-5 FT
5 Rebounds
4 assists
1 steal
1 TO
0 PF
21 pts

 

[Boiler Buck]

Posting Big Guards...from above....

If a 6-5 guard is used right and you have great spacing - yes you can post him up on midget guards like that of Illinois or iu.....just not sure Painter is aware how to do that, or is aware of the value of doing that, but I see it in the NBA when I watch where size differences in guards and the bigger guard backs his guy down.....a guard can score with the size advantage with a short turn around jumper or if help comes - use it to gain assists when the double comes..

 

[SNU0821]

Y Ferrell's stats from the two Purdue games this year:

@ Purdue:

9-20 FG/1-6 (3pt)
2-3 FT
1 Rebound
3 assists
1 steal
2 TO's
3 PF's
21 pts

@ Indiana:

7/15 FG/3-7 (3pt)
4-5 FT
5 Rebounds
4 assists
1 steal
1 TO
0 PF
21 pts

Thanks for grabbing these. The big thing I remember about the first game was Yogi driving in a ton and missing shorter shots/layups. But his 3pt % in the second game was close to his average. Assists were close to an average for him as well.

 

[Treyit31]

This isn't anything new, hence why Painter is trying to get a 5th year PG. Read up anywhere and they say PG "could" be an issue for Purdue in 15-16. I personally think it won't, but then again, I'm a homer.

 

[since1980]

You must have forgotten all of the big shots Ray made last year with time winding down either on the game clock or shot clock. He made at least 5-10 big shots with a buzzer going off (or with a few seconds on the clock).

I didn't forget and he had good games during the season and I said he was capable of being that guy. But as I said, he has been inconsistent and definitely was not an Alpha player in 3 of the most important games at the end of the year when it meant survive and advance. We need him to be a killer like E-twaun and Rob were, not afraid to take and make big shots on a nightly basis.

At MSU end of year, 2 points, 1 rebound, 3 assists.
Vs. Wisky in BTT: 8 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist
Vs. Cincy in Tourney: 4 points, 8 rebounds, 0 assists.

 

[GodFamilyCountryPurdue]

I didn't forget and he had good games during the season and I said he was capable of being that guy. But as I said, he has been inconsistent and definitely was not an Alpha player in 3 of the most important games at the end of the year when it meant survive and advance. We need him to be a killer like E-twaun and Rob were, not afraid to take and make big shots on a nightly basis.

At MSU end of year, 2 points, 1 rebound, 3 assists.
Vs. Wisky in BTT: 8 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist
Vs. Cincy in Tourney: 4 points, 8 rebounds, 0 assists.

You cherry pick 3 games? He had an off game against MSU. The officials swallowed their whistles in the Wisky game. He was fouled several times going to the rim without calls. Against Cincy he was very ill. Not too bad for a 30+ game season.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

That's the case when it comes to Yogi being considerably more skilled. Yogi > Mathias/Stephens/Thompson. I don't really think you can argue that one. Yogi has always played against taller guards and has done well. I mean he was 1st Team All B10. Again, not an issue.

Height (and length) matters a lot. Yogi is a bit of an anomaly. He's one of the top sub six foot guards in the entire country. PJ Thompson is more the rule. If he was the exact same player except 6'3", nobody would be concerned about Purdue's point guard situation. (For that matter, if Yogi was 6'3", he'd be in the NBA.)

Now, o would agree there can be a downside to height. Very few tall players have great lateral quickness. It's certainly been a challenge for Stephens. But, the advantage Stephens has with his height and length is that he can give an opposing player space and still bother his shot, while opposing players have to stay right with Stephens (and it isn't hard to see that opponents always make guarding Stephens closely a top priority). You will rarely see opposing players leave Stephens to help.

To the OP, the backcourt is a concern, but I feel really good about the 2. It's the 1 where the uncertainty is. I've predicted that Mathias will start at the 1, but I don't really know for sure if it will work. I think it will, but I won't be surprised if I am wrong.

 

[nagemj02]

Thanks for grabbing these. The big thing I remember about the first game was Yogi driving in a ton and missing shorter shots/layups. But his 3pt % in the second game was close to his average. Assists were close to an average for him as well.

He missed more jumpers than he did lay-ups in the game at Purdue. As far as those go though, a couple of his missed lay-ups were partly due to Hammons lurking in the vicinity of his driving lane and another one was blocked by Vince Edwards.

 

[SNU0821]

He missed more jumpers than he did lay-ups in the game at Purdue. As far as those go though, a couple of his missed lay-ups were partly due to Hammons lurking in the vicinity of his driving lane and another one was blocked by Vince Edwards.

You're talking about the first game, right? I don't remember, what changed in the second game? Was he just hitting outside shots? Or was he getting into the lane? He shot it much better in the second game.

 

[nagemj02]

Yes, I'm referring to the game at Mackey Arena. I just looked over the play-by-play as a refresher for the second game: it doesn't really look like he scored more off of drives and the like. He just made more short, mid-range and perimeter jumpers. He was probably just more comfortable on his homecourt vs. a vocal minority of hundreds yelling at him and asking things like, "Where's Boo-Boo?!".

 

[Casey and his Brother]

How tall were the guards on Cincinnati that we couldn't stop at the end of the game? They must have all been 6'10" to be able to get off shots over our 6'5" guys.

 

[BBG]

How tall were the guards on Cincinnati that we couldn't stop at the end of the game? They must have all been 6'10" to be able to get off shots over our 6'5" guys.

Well to be fair, we needed to play a bit of defense first for size to be a factor.

 

[Casey and his Brother]

It's a dumb debate, but I guess that's what May brings to a college basketball discussion.

 

[nagemj02]

It's hard to argue with them at this point. Clearly you all are more optimistic on the development of Stephens, Mathias and Thompson more so than others (all fans are optimistic about their own players developing) and their shooting improving. But from an outside perspective at this point, it's tough to look at your guard situation and think they'll be able to run the show as well as last year with the loss of Octeus. That doesn't mean they won't be able to handle it, but at this point, I think that's where non Purdue fans get stuck when trying to figure out where to place Purdue.

Personally, I'm optimistic that Mathias can improve. Things such as his D improved over the course of last season (he was keeping guys like Rayvonte Rice in front of him when they drove). He came into his freshman season sick and hobbled, so I imagine his playing better in the latter half of the season coincided with him being healthier.

I'm not as confident about Thompson and Stephens making significant strides. I just think that Thompson is physically limited (obviously short for a DI guard and not notably quick or an exceptionally skilled passer or shooter). If he can do a good job as a four-year backup PG and have more games like he did in the regular season finale vs. Illinois, that would be great.

With Stephens, it's just my own personal feeling, but it doesn't seem like he learns from his mistakes and becomes better for it. There's just something about his demeanor in games where it almost seems like he's focusing as much or more on trying to seem like a real cool customer (where good or bad, whatever happens in the game or with him specifically, is no big deal, to a point where it seems more apathetic than it does being even-keel to me), instead of focusing more on trying to make the right plays (on D or O). He's one of those players I never feel real confident about when he has the ball in his hands, unless he's set and squared up to shoot a jumper. He just seems to have a demeanor that doesn't seem conducive to steadily making strides in his game. That's just an impression I have of him, maybe I'm way off.