Anything less.

[big10best]

I have a few points to make, so in the interest of keeping things short and sweet, I will just list them individually.
1. We are unable to make changes during the game. Painter makes up a game plan, and will not delve away from that. Sometimes you wad up plan "A" and go with "B".
2. Our "best shooters" are our worst athletes.
3. Most of our players are scared to shoot. I have never seen a team pass away so many open looks just to pass it to someone with a defender draped over them.
4. The game has passed us by. We are playing like there is a peach basket nailed to the ends of the arena. The game has evolved, we have failed to.
5. I bleed gold and black, but I think this season will be looked upon as a huge disappointment unless we get to the sweet 16.
6. The refs did not cost us the game Saturday. We lost the game because we lacked heart. Aside from a few late three pointers, we never played with any sense of urgency.

 

[TC4THREE]

We are a 21-7 top 25 team. I think it's ridiculous to say that "The game has passed us by."

I don't think we lacked heart or a sense of urgency. I think Hammons got in some early, and some bogus foul trouble. I also think we turned the ball over too many times and missed too many front ends of 1 and 1's to put ourselves in good position to pull off the upset. To win in Bloomington you usually have to bet 10-15 points better than IU in order to win by one possession. We made too many mistakes and missed too many shots but it wasn't a lack of heart or urgency in my opinion.

 

[BoilerDeac]

I have a few points to make, so in the interest of keeping things short and sweet, I will just list them individually.
1. We are unable to make changes during the game. Painter makes up a game plan, and will not delve away from that. Sometimes you wad up plan "A" and go with "B".
2. Our "best shooters" are our worst athletes.
3. Most of our players are scared to shoot. I have never seen a team pass away so many open looks just to pass it to someone with a defender draped over them.
4. The game has passed us by. We are playing like there is a peach basket nailed to the ends of the arena. The game has evolved, we have failed to.
5. I bleed gold and black, but I think this season will be looked upon as a huge disappointment unless we get to the sweet 16.
6. The refs did not cost us the game Saturday. We lost the game because we lacked heart. Aside from a few late three pointers, we never played with any sense of urgency.

Number 4 is scary, but it's true, to a certain extent. Unfortunately, Purdue's style of play is one that is quickly becoming a thing of the past. It's like we're the Memphis Grizzlies of college hoops.

 

[cprh9u]

100% agree with lack of energy, heart, whatever you want to call it. IU got to every loose ball, forced jump balls, forced TO's. We didn't force TO's, we didn't get to the loose ball, we didn't make the hustle plays. Incredibly disappointing as we were the better team (in my honest but biased opinion) and certainly could have won that game.

 

[Do Dah Day]

1. Overall, I disagree. For those games that we were well ahead and then lost in the 2nd half, what adjustment would he make. Something like "We're up 16, let's change what we're doing?" The fact that we have lost many 2nd halves has little to do with not adjusting well.
2. True.
3. True
4. I see why you say that, but don't fully agree. We don't have the Shaka Smart run and gun and we don't run a high pick and pop or pick and roll. On the other hand, with the players we have playing the position they play, we are playing a style that fits. Now, there could be further discussion on the positions certain players are playing, which could dictate a different style.
5. It may be a disappointment to those who based their expectations on hope. We are exactly where most experts put us. Have we played as well as we could, probably not, but neither has Kansa, Duke, NC, Butler, and most other teams. We will never play as well as the fans think we should. It's the nature of the beast.
6. I totally agree with this ... as I have all season. No fist pumps, no screaming, no Brian Cardinal, or Kramer, or Todd Foster. Low emotion senior leadership. Low emotion when we are way ahead and low emotion when we are losing. I know AJ and understand that is not who he is. Never has been. He has great value in other ways, but no warrior spirit. I don't see a warrior on our team. I haven't watched Carsen Edwards, but I posted weeks ago that I hope he demands the ball at the end of a game, flexes on the way back on D, and that he never ever shoots a fade-away.

 

[*4purdue*]

I have a few points to make, so in the interest of keeping things short and sweet, I will just list them individually.
1. We are unable to make changes during the game. Painter makes up a game plan, and will not delve away from that. Sometimes you wad up plan "A" and go with "B".
2. Our "best shooters" are our worst athletes.
3. Most of our players are scared to shoot. I have never seen a team pass away so many open looks just to pass it to someone with a defender draped over them.
4. The game has passed us by. We are playing like there is a peach basket nailed to the ends of the arena. The game has evolved, we have failed to.
5. I bleed gold and black, but I think this season will be looked upon as a huge disappointment unless we get to the sweet 16.
6. The refs did not cost us the game Saturday. We lost the game because we lacked heart. Aside from a few late three pointers, we never played with any sense of urgency.

1 - This is our biggest problem.
2 - Is just not true, I think VE is probably our best shooter & athlete.
3 - I think alot of our players lose confidence & become afraid to shoot. Davis is probably leading in that category. I wish it were true of PJ sometimes.
4 - I don't agree with this. We just need to get kids that develop a shot. I like the makeup of this team, minus the point guard situation.
5 - I'll be disappointed unless we go to the FF. This is talent wise one of the best teams CMP has had. The regular season has been a huge disappointment.
6 - I agree with this point

 

[IamBob]

 

[*4purdue*]

1. Overall, I disagree. For those games that we were well ahead and then lost in the 2nd half, what adjustment would he make. Something like "We're up 16, let's change what we're doing?" The fact that we have lost many 2nd halves has little to do with not adjusting well.
.

Not sure how anyone can disagree with point 1. When we're up 16 at the half, what do you think the other team is going to do? They are going to try to take away what you were doing to get to that 16 point lead. If you don't adjust & they take that away, you are going to lose that lead like we have. CMP made an adjustment in the IU game when we were down 18 with 7 min. to go. He went small & pressed. We got back in the game with that strategy. You have to make adjustments during a game if a team is on a run. Otherwise, it's just going to continue like it has all year. The only time I ever see CMP adjust is when we are down big. Then he goes small, presses full court & we usually make a run that comes up short. You can't wait to make adjustments. I'd love to see us come out of the half with a 17 point lead & go small & press for the first 4 min. just to throw the other team off their adjustments. We have to be the easiest team in the country to game plan for because we never change.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Not sure how anyone can disagree with point 1. When we're up 16 at the half, what do you think the other team is going to do? They are going to try to take away what you were doing to get to that 16 point lead. If you don't adjust & they take that away, you are going to lose that lead like we have. CMP made an adjustment in the IU game when we were down 18 with 7 min. to go. He went small & pressed. We got back in the game with that strategy. You have to make adjustments during a game if a team is on a run. Otherwise, it's just going to continue like it has all year. The only time I ever see CMP adjust is when we are down big. Then he goes small, presses full court & we usually make a run that comes up short. You can't wait to make adjustments. I'd love to see us come out of the half with a 17 point lead & go small & press for the first 4 min. just to throw the other team off their adjustments. We have to be the easiest team in the country to game plan for because we never change.

I agree with what you say. I don't agree that when things are going great and you have a good lead obviously because what you are doing is working, then you change things. Boy would that create criticism on this board. We got a 16 point lead and then STOPPED doing what gave us a 16 point lead!

And yes, CMP did make an adjustment when we were down 18 at IU. He did it when we were DOWN. You can argue that he should have done it sooner. But you can't argue that if we were up 18 he should have made that adjustment.

I agree that you must expect the other team to adjust to what you are doing, but that doesn't mean "they're going to double us on the low post, be sure to pass out of that." That's an execution issue, not an adjustment. On the other hand, the adjustment Iowa made was to make a hell of a lot of threes, not exactly an adjustment to what we were doing and not an adjustment to what they were doing.

Every team does essentially the same thing most games. Matchups can be tweaked, a part of the existing game can be ramped up, or ramped back, but if you watch other teams, they do the same things every game. Not that much different from us. I do think we could do a better job of passing out of down-low double teams, but that would not be an adjustment as I know we work on that every practice. That's an execution issue.

 

[Cevol03]

Purdue fans' expectations versus most pundits expectations for this season are very different. Also, it is way to early to label this season a major disappointment. We haven't even played in one post-season game yet. It is still possible for us to win the B1G tourney or make a tourney run.

 

[bstrouse]

I agree with the original poster.

Matt Painter has done a very average job coaching this year with the talent on this roster. It is very disappointing.

I see a stubborn strategy of guys standing around on offense trying to feed the post so hard with defenders sagging off to make the pass difficult or ready to double the post immediately. Unfortunately, this post centric offense leads to what I call the "Statue Offense" because all the other players are just standing around the perimeter looking to feed the post. No movement, no action, etc. I don't see enough high ball screens for drivers or enough actions to get shooters a good shot. With Swanigan at 4 and Hammons/Haas at the 5, there is no room inside to drive for guys like Vince Edwards or Ray Davis. Butler showed how to defend this back in December and any coach worth a damn would be foolish not to copy it.

Interesting enough, Purdue made a good comeback at IU and few other games when certain things happened.
1. Move Vince to the 4, slide in another shooter. Swanigan moves to the 5 for a smaller lineup.
2. Pressing, more defensive pressure. Where is full court trapping or at least the 3/4 quarter zone press to slow down the other offense and eat shot clock?

I also believe the game has passed Purdue's experiment by. The game has evolved to where having more players who can move in and out on to the perimeter and be a threat is needed. More spacing is needed. Unfortunately, Purdue's skyline has the problem that these 3 great players should really only have one of these players on the court at a time.

My biggest concern is the lack of guts to really commit these changes or experiments until we are in desperation mode.

 

[*4purdue*]

I agree with what you say. I don't agree that when things are going great and you have a good lead obviously because what you are doing is working, then you change things. Boy would that create criticism on this board. We got a 16 point lead and then STOPPED doing what gave us a 16 point lead!

And yes, CMP did make an adjustment when we were down 18 at IU. He did it when we were DOWN. You can argue that he should have done it sooner. But you can't argue that if we were up 18 he should have made that adjustment.

I agree that you must expect the other team to adjust to what you are doing, but that doesn't mean "they're going to double us on the low post, be sure to pass out of that." That's an execution issue, not an adjustment. On the other hand, the adjustment Iowa made was to make a hell of a lot of threes, not exactly an adjustment to what we were doing and not an adjustment to what they were doing.

Every team does essentially the same thing most games. Matchups can be tweaked, a part of the existing game can be ramped up, or ramped back, but if you watch other teams, they do the same things every game. Not that much different from us. I do think we could do a better job of passing out of down-low double teams, but that would not be an adjustment as I know we work on that every practice. That's an execution issue.

The problem has been when we have a big lead and it slips away, he doesn't change. It's happened fast in games. Look at the MSU and Iowa games, You can't call time out when a 17 point lead is gone and say, let's keep doing what we are doing, you have to change. He has to recognize when it's no longer working, you have to change. I was at the Iowa game and the crowd around me and sounded like most of the arena was upset we kept doing the same thing the second half.

 

[Do Dah Day]

The problem has been when we have a big lead and it slips away, he doesn't change. It's happened fast in games. Look at the MSU and Iowa games, You can't call time out when a 17 point lead is gone and say, let's keep doing what we are doing, you have to change. He has to recognize when it's no longer working, you have to change. I was at the Iowa game and the crowd around me and sounded like most of the arena was upset we kept doing the same thing the second half.

Philosophically, I agree. And adjusting to things happening is a part of being a good coach. And things do happen fast. My question is, what does a coach tell his guys to do when the other team goes from missing threes to hitting everything? Sure, tell them to go out and stop it. But that's what they were told during practice all week and during the meeting before the game. It's not like Iowa adjusted and started doing anything that is different from what they always do.What did we keep on doing that we should have changed? I assume you're referring to changing things on offense. That could be true, but as I recall, we were getting good shots, but turned the ball over and missed some easy shots. What adjustment needs to be made in that case? Make those shots and quit turning the ball over? What was killing us was they were hitting every three they threw up.

 

[*4purdue*]

Philosophically, I agree. And adjusting to things happening is a part of being a good coach. And things do happen fast. My question is, what does a coach tell his guys to do when the other team goes from missing threes to hitting everything? Sure, tell them to go out and stop it. But that's what they were told during practice all week and during the meeting before the game. It's not like Iowa adjusted and started doing anything that is different from what they always do.What did we keep on doing that we should have changed? I assume you're referring to changing things on offense. That could be true, but as I recall, we were getting good shots, but turned the ball over and missed some easy shots. What adjustment needs to be made in that case? Make those shots and quit turning the ball over? What was killing us was they were hitting every three they threw up.

Iowa did change. They went to a trapping press and we continued to walk the ball up the court to try to get into our offense. They did not beat us by getting hot on offense. They beat us by Purdue turning the ball over and putting them in transition. If you remember, after we got down about 7, CMP put Hill in and we got better, but it was to late.
Not sure why you don't see that CMP is very stubborn to change what he is doing. Almost every Purdue fan that I know thinks about the same way about him.., he is hell bound to do what he thinks will win and won't make any adjustments until it's basically over. A few years ago when we were horrible in man to man D, he refused to play anything else and we finished last in the league. With CMP, what you see at the beginning of the season is what you are going to get the entire season. You don't see improvement because they continue to do the same thing.

 

[nagemj02]

This is a very talented Purdue team, but think of what they could do with a really good and strategically flexible head coach instead of a good-to-average but mostly fixed-in-his-ways head coach.

 

[bleedgoldandblack]

I agree with the original poster.

Matt Painter has done a very average job coaching this year with the talent on this roster. It is very disappointing.

I see a stubborn strategy of guys standing around on offense trying to feed the post so hard with defenders sagging off to make the pass difficult or ready to double the post immediately. Unfortunately, this post centric offense leads to what I call the "Statue Offense" because all the other players are just standing around the perimeter looking to feed the post. No movement, no action, etc. I don't see enough high ball screens for drivers or enough actions to get shooters a good shot. With Swanigan at 4 and Hammons/Haas at the 5, there is no room inside to drive for guys like Vince Edwards or Ray Davis. Butler showed how to defend this back in December and any coach worth a damn would be foolish not to copy it.

Interesting enough, Purdue made a good comeback at IU and few other games when certain things happened.
1. Move Vince to the 4, slide in another shooter. Swanigan moves to the 5 for a smaller lineup.
2. Pressing, more defensive pressure. Where is full court trapping or at least the 3/4 quarter zone press to slow down the other offense and eat shot clock?

I also believe the game has passed Purdue's experiment by. The game has evolved to where having more players who can move in and out on to the perimeter and be a threat is needed. More spacing is needed. Unfortunately, Purdue's skyline has the problem that these 3 great players should really only have one of these players on the court at a time.

My biggest concern is the lack of guts to really commit these changes or experiments until we are in desperation mode.

I agree with most of your comments. However, I don't think CMP has done a very average job coaching. An average coach would make on the fly changes and could adapt to the game being played. Like so many others point out, he's still young, right?

Quite frankly, I am far more disappointed in this team than I was with the team that finished in last place. We shouldn't have finished in last but there is little difference between 9th place and last. This years team should be fighting for a Big championship but we find ourselves as an 8th seed. We lost ourselves in the Butler game and almost twenty games later, we are still searching. At this point, the fault lies with Painter.

 

[Do Dah Day]

This is a very talented Purdue team, but think of what they could do with a really good and strategically flexible head coach instead of a good-to-average but mostly fixed-in-his-ways head coach.

I agree with you. And I must have blocked the press aspect of the Iowa game, so I agree with 4Purdue on that situation. I don't think Painter is a great coach, he is very set in his ways. I also think the players (Ray and VInnie especially) have thrown him for a loop and he tends to remember how good they can be and hope they will get back there and that their replacements aren't as good as Ray and Vinnie can be. Hope vs. reality. I'm not defending him as much as suggesting how a coach tends to think about players who have been with him and have played well ... but now aren't.

On the other hand, I have looked reasonably hard and don't see a coach that has proven himself to be better than Painter that would make the move. The ones that would make the move either haven't proven themselves or are lacking in some important aspect (especially recruiting Indiana for the next couple of years). Add to that the fact that firing a coach who has a top 25 team sends a message that you better perform or you're gone and some coaches will rebel against that. Maybe they aren't the ones we might want.

In my life, complaining for weeks and weeks about something without a good solution makes for a very rough life.

 

[mathboy]

This is a very talented Purdue team, but think of what they could do with a really good and strategically flexible head coach instead of a good-to-average but mostly fixed-in-his-ways head coach.

A very talented team? Maybe not. Have you watched Kansas or North Carolina play?? Watch kids like McBride or Valentine play. Watch Yogi, Trimble. Those are talented kids, who are vastly supperior to Mathias, Edwards and Davis - as individual players. That is talent!

Painter has a team of good role players, plus some great size. We win as a team. No coach is going to come in here and turn Mathias into a Valentine. Get a grip on your expectations.

 

[Hiram Walker]

I agree with the original poster.

Matt Painter has done a very average job coaching this year with the talent on this roster. It is very disappointing.

I see a stubborn strategy of guys standing around on offense trying to feed the post so hard with defenders sagging off to make the pass difficult or ready to double the post immediately. Unfortunately, this post centric offense leads to what I call the "Statue Offense" because all the other players a

I agree with most of these posts. Painter is like Keady used to be, a coach unable or unwilling to change his approach to the game based on the circumstances. He has learned all of the Xs &Os of the game but seems to lack the ability to analyze or evaluate during the game and make the appropriate adjustments or strategize in response to the opponents actions or gameplan.

In other words he wouldnt be a very good chess player.

 

[nagemj02]

"I agree with most of these posts. Painter is like Keady used to be, a coach unable or unwilling to change his approach to the game based on the circumstances. He has learned all of the Xs &Os of the game but seems to lack the ability to analyze or evaluate during the game and make the appropriate adjustments or strategize in response to the opponents actions or gameplan.

In other words he wouldnt be a very good chess player."

+infinity

For all of the consistent things he must do well in coaching his teams on a day-to-day basis, it gets overlapped by his lack of in-game flexibility, especially in games against top teams and the ones that matter the most (i.e. NCAA Tournament games against top or hot teams).

 

[mathboy]

"I agree with most of these posts. Painter is like Keady used to be, a coach unable or unwilling to change his approach to the game based on the circumstances. He has learned all of the Xs &Os of the game but seems to lack the ability to analyze or evaluate during the game and make the appropriate adjustments or strategize in response to the opponents actions or gameplan.

In other words he wouldnt be a very good chess player."

+infinity

For all of the consistent things he must do well in coaching his teams on a day-to-day basis, it gets overlapped by his lack of in-game flexibility, especially in games against top teams and the ones that matter the most (i.e. NCAA Tournament games against top or hot teams).

Sorry guys, but I disagree with all of this. Painter is well above average as a BIG coach. He gets the X's and O's. You can strategize and analise all you want but if the other guy is better, you are going to get beat. I see plenty of in-game flexibiility. This whole mantra that Painter is dumb and inflexible is pure garbage. Sometimes the other guy is just better, that day, no matter what you do.

 

[BoilerBiker]

A very talented team? Maybe not. Have you watched Kansas or North Carolina play?? Watch kids like McBride or Valentine play. Watch Yogi, Trimble. Those are talented kids, who are vastly supperior to Mathias, Edwards and Davis - as individual players. That is talent!

Painter has a team of good role players, plus some great size. We win as a team. No coach is going to come in here and turn Mathias into a Valentine. Get a grip on your expectations.

Sorry guys, but I disagree with all of this. Painter is well above average as a BIG coach. He gets the X's and O's. You can strategize and analise all you want but if the other guy is better, you are going to get beat. I see plenty of in-game flexibiility. This whole mantra that Painter is dumb and inflexible is pure garbage. Sometimes the other guy is just better, that day, no matter what you do.

i've been reading increasing negative comments regarding the talent on this team.
when did this sentiment start again, i'm not sure i understand the consistency of some of these arguments?
i would contend that this is one of painter's most talented teams - second only to maybe the peak of the baby boiler teams.
painter finally got that coveted 5 star who was also on january's naismith top 50 list.
we have a senior all big ten center who is on the same top 50 list (and for multiple years).
we have a returning senior DPOY.
painter has one of if not the best 3 point shooter from high school last year.
haas was a rivals 4 star... we are also one of the few w/multi 7 footers.
KS was a 4 star.
we have a former 4 star redshirting as an upperclassmen b/c he wouldn't see playing time(!).
also to compare to the kentucky's and kansas's of the world:
purdue is 1 of only 9 schools with multiple players on the naismith top 50 watch list (of those 9, 4 include freshmen).
our team may not be as deep as say kentucky or kansas, but i don't feel we are so far out of their league.
(and, this team is far deeper w/talent than our baby boiler teams).

i thought most fans, including myself, were positive on our recent recruiting and thought it was clearly on the rise again.
i definitely thought we could compete for a big ten title this year.
unfortunately we currently sit in 8th place (hopefully we bump up w/just 3 games remaining, but now need to rely on other's losing/getting upset).
i just struggle with this view of our team, and that painter and/or purdue can't recruit and attract talent - we have the talent right now - again.

 

[Hiram Walker]

I don't think anyone is down on the players or talent level. This thread was more about coaching.