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An Uncomfortable Topic

FirstDownB

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Oct 12, 2015
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Let me preface this by saying I do realize this may offend some people. So, sorry in advance, but it is a topic that I think a lot of people would admit to thinking about if being honest..

When the decision was made to hire Darrell Hazell to coach at Purdue I'll admit he wasn't at the top of my list, but soon I was feeling optimistic. At first I couldn't quite pinpoint why. Was it his one winning season at Kent State? His experience working for a winning program and coach at OSU? His calm and cool demeanor? Or was it simply a desire for change?

I think it was a little bit of all of the above. But there was that other thing. The thing I kept coming back to, even though it made me uncomfortable for even thinking it. Given the historical image of Purdue, a conservative, majority white midwestern school, and whatever disadvantages this image creates on the recruiting trail, now we finally had an antidote of sorts. Our first ever black head coach. Somebody who could walk into the living room of minority recruits and say I know the issues you face.

Maybe it was wishful thinking, but in my mind that alone was enough for a bump in recruiting. Not that 4 and 5 star recruits of color would automatically jump aboard just because, but maybe we'd start winning more recruiting battles against peers with older white men as coaches (like we used to have). I guess in my mind it was some weird likeness of affirmative action. If blacks want to help each other overcome history and get ahead, why not go play for the black head coach if all else is essentially equal? This would seem to be the case for many 3 star, some 4 star recruits.

But that never came to fruition in year one. And after 2-3 years of historically bad results, obviously the issue became moot. No one wants to play for a losing coach, regardless of skin color. But the question remained in my mind. Why could he not get the initial recruiting off the ground? Was he torpedoed so quickly by the futility of his very first season? Or was I overestimating the impact of a black coach within the black community? If it is the former I can sort of understand, although having a rough year or two after a coaching change is not exactly unheard of. If it is the latter, I guess I am just a tad jaded. In a society where we are essentially asked to give preferential treatment for skin color to offset past discrimination, why were black families not going out of their way to support a black coach?

Anyway, the whole national anthem boycotting thing. We all (or 99%) want to see racial equality. There are different ideas on how to achieve it. Sure there is responsibility on the powers-that-be. Keeping this to football, there has been the Rooney rule in the NFL to promote hiring of minority coaches. Colleges such as Purdue are giving qualified candidates the chance. But isn't there also responsibility on the community to help by supporting these black coaches? Across college football and basketball I just don't see it. The top recruits keep signing with programs led by old white men. Maybe in the future there will be more of an effort by the players and their families to shape the system in constructive ways. Unfortunately for this coach it is too late.
 
I don't think his firing will bring up anything related to race. When his W-L record is likely to be single digits in the first category and 35+ in the second...that's all people will need to see to say it's justified.

He got 4 years and was bad. That's about all that can and should be said.

On one of your earlier points...IMO it should be easier for an African American coach to recruit AA players. When your team sucks....well...its harder to recruit regardless of your skin color.
 
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I think he's a below average coach.
However, there are plenty of below average coaches out there getting by on recruiting. Imagine this year's team with a talented edge rusher, a lock down corner, and a stud tackle. Not bad.
So that's just a small handful of kids who in 2013 could have said we're going to help turn this program around and help the cause. But instead they go play for Dabo or Bubba or Jim Bob, and now everyone is complaining because Dabo says something they don't like.
 
This is what happens as organization lean towards being meritocratic. age, skin color, sex, all that becomes meaningless. If the old white man knows what he's doing, then that's where the talent goes. When people concentrate on being successful, all the nonsense ends up in the noise, where it should be. Football is not about the "issues" minorities face or anything else. It's about winning games and making money.

This is true in other places too. IT workers are notoriously meritocratic. Why? because mistakes mean long hours, or loss of job, loss of revenue, etc... So when surveyed, IT workers preferred a mean boss who is right over a nice boss that is wrong because it is perceived that the poor decision making will cause greater suffering.

Thus I think you've overestimated the black coach effect. The reality is these kids are trying to do the best they can for themselves. Who do you want to play for, Lovie Smith or Bill Bellichick? Dungy or Pagano? Is it racial? man hell no.
 
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I actually had a short conversation with my dad and my friend about DH and recruiting the summer after he got hired. I honestly hoped that his color would help him recruit better players. Whatever "legal" advantage a place like Purdue can get in recruiting is certainly worth taking advantage of but unfortunately that hasn't appeared to happen.
 
This is what happens as organization lean towards being meritocratic. age, skin color, sex, all that becomes meaningless. If the old white man knows what he's doing, then that's where the talent goes. When people concentrate on being successful, all the nonsense ends up in the noise, where it should be. Football is not about the "issues" minorities face or anything else. It's about winning games and making money.

This is true in other places too. IT workers are notoriously meritocratic. Why? because mistakes mean long hours, or loss of job, loss of revenue, etc... So when surveyed, IT workers preferred a mean boss who is right over a nice boss that is wrong because it is perceived that the poor decision making will cause greater suffering.

Thus I think you've overestimated the black coach effect. The reality is these kids are trying to do the best they can for themselves. Who do you want to play for, Lovie Smith or Bill Bellichick? Dungy or Pagano? Is it racial? man hell no.
I indeed overestimated the black coach effect on recruiting. They question is why. I agree with your statements about everyone doing what's best for themselves. However, many people believe this perpetuates institutional racism that is holding many of these coaches back. But segments of the population who feel this way actually hold the power to elevate coaches by choosing who they will play for. Way more power than the coaches do.
If people truly believe something "needs to be done" to fix the imbalance of black coaches then they should start by supporting the ones that are out there. If it is a cause worth sacrificing for its a cause worth sacrificing for. Sitting during a national anthem isn't sacrificing a damn thing and it sure as hell doesn't fix any problems.
 
Just because you are black, doesn't mean that will translate to being a good recruiter. If that was the case, don't you think all young teachers would be great because they should be able to relate to their students much better than a teacher who is 50? If you are good at teaching, you are going to be good at teaching no matter what age, race, creed, or color...the same can be said for recruiting. If you are good at it, you are good at it...it doesn't matter your race, creed, or color.
 
Not sure Pagano is any better than Dungy, but that's beside the point.
I have indeed overestimated the black coach effect on recruiting. They question is why. I agree with your statements about everyone doing what's best for themselves. However, many people believe this perpetuates institutional racism that is holding many of these coaches back. But segments of the population who feel this way actually hold the power to elevate coaches by choosing who they will play for. Way more power than the coaches do.
If people truly believe something "needs to be done" to fix the imbalance of black coaches then they should start by supporting the ones that are out there. If it is a cause worth sacrificing for its a cause worth sacrificing for. Sitting during a national anthem isn't sacrificing a damn thing and it sure as hell doesn't fix any problems.
umm ya dungy>pagano by a mile...just a couple of examples. The point is, you aren't choosing based on race, and neither would any reasonable person.
 
Don't think race has anything to do with it. It's Hazell and his personality. He seems like a polite guy, but he never once ha exuded confidence that great HC/recruiters have. Great recruiters usually have a way of convincing you their school is the only place you should consider. Hazell seems like he'd be overly passive in this area. Add to the fact he has a crap record, and recruits can probably get the picture that it's a no win situation to come here.
 
Let me preface this by saying I do realize this may offend some people. So, sorry in advance, but it is a topic that I think a lot of people would admit to thinking about if being honest..

When the decision was made to hire Darrell Hazell to coach at Purdue I'll admit he wasn't at the top of my list, but soon I was feeling optimistic. At first I couldn't quite pinpoint why. Was it his one winning season at Kent State? His experience working for a winning program and coach at OSU? His calm and cool demeanor? Or was it simply a desire for change?

I think it was a little bit of all of the above. But there was that other thing. The thing I kept coming back to, even though it made me uncomfortable for even thinking it. Given the historical image of Purdue, a conservative, majority white midwestern school, and whatever disadvantages this image creates on the recruiting trail, now we finally had an antidote of sorts. Our first ever black head coach. Somebody who could walk into the living room of minority recruits and say I know the issues you face.

Maybe it was wishful thinking, but in my mind that alone was enough for a bump in recruiting. Not that 4 and 5 star recruits of color would automatically jump aboard just because, but maybe we'd start winning more recruiting battles against peers with older white men as coaches (like we used to have). I guess in my mind it was some weird likeness of affirmative action. If blacks want to help each other overcome history and get ahead, why not go play for the black head coach if all else is essentially equal? This would seem to be the case for many 3 star, some 4 star recruits.

But that never came to fruition in year one. And after 2-3 years of historically bad results, obviously the issue became moot. No one wants to play for a losing coach, regardless of skin color. But the question remained in my mind. Why could he not get the initial recruiting off the ground? Was he torpedoed so quickly by the futility of his very first season? Or was I overestimating the impact of a black coach within the black community? If it is the former I can sort of understand, although having a rough year or two after a coaching change is not exactly unheard of. If it is the latter, I guess I am just a tad jaded. In a society where we are essentially asked to give preferential treatment for skin color to offset past discrimination, why were black families not going out of their way to support a black coach?

Anyway, the whole national anthem boycotting thing. We all (or 99%) want to see racial equality. There are different ideas on how to achieve it. Sure there is responsibility on the powers-that-be. Keeping this to football, there has been the Rooney rule in the NFL to promote hiring of minority coaches. Colleges such as Purdue are giving qualified candidates the chance. But isn't there also responsibility on the community to help by supporting these black coaches? Across college football and basketball I just don't see it. The top recruits keep signing with programs led by old white men. Maybe in the future there will be more of an effort by the players and their families to shape the system in constructive ways. Unfortunately for this coach it is too late.
I wish you were correct about 99 percent of Americans wanting racial equality.I know a lot of bigots.
 
Don't think race has anything to do with it. It's Hazell and his personality. He seems like a polite guy, but he never once ha exuded confidence that great HC/recruiters have. Great recruiters usually have a way of convincing you their school is the only place you should consider. Hazell seems like he'd be overly passive in this area. Add to the fact he has a crap record, and recruits can probably get the picture that it's a no win situation to come here.
In my initial post I conceded after a couple horrible seasons the issue was moot. What about 2013 coming off 11 wins at Kent State? Seems like not too much of a sacrifice to jump on board and support an important cause even if his personality is bland.
Just because you are black, doesn't mean that will translate to being a good recruiter. If that was the case, don't you think all young teachers would be great because they should be able to relate to their students much better than a teacher who is 50? If you are good at teaching, you are going to be good at teaching no matter what age, race, creed, or color...the same can be said for recruiting. If you are good at it, you are good at it...it doesn't matter your race, creed, or color.
Your teacher analogy doesn't fit. No one is protesting systemic discrimination against young teachers. So there is no more motivation for students to perform for younger teachers than older ones. DH2 is obviously a bad recruiter but he hasn't exactly been thrown any bones by black recruits or their families either.
 
In my initial post I conceded after a couple horrible seasons the issue was moot. What about 2013 coming off 11 wins at Kent State? Seems like not too much of a sacrifice to jump on board and support an important cause even if his personality is bland.
His bland personality still worked enough to keep Etling, and snag Keyante Green and Leroy Clark (both 4* guys), got Austin Logan (offers from Stanford, Northwestern, Utah, Cincinnati, among others), Antoine Miles (offers from Nebraska, Pitt, WVU, Cincinnati, among others), Deangelo Yancey (offers from NC State, Missouri, Ole Miss, Kentucky), Dan Monteroso (had offers from Iowa and BC), Matt Burke (who was coming off a US Army All American game). So I would say, he did well using his Kent St success to get some players. But after the product he put on the field, mixed with his personality, equaled recruits just not connecting with him and going elsewhere.
 
His bland personality still worked enough to keep Etling, and snag Keyante Green and Leroy Clark (both 4* guys), got Austin Logan (offers from Stanford, Northwestern, Utah, Cincinnati, among others), Antoine Miles (offers from Nebraska, Pitt, WVU, Cincinnati, among others), Deangelo Yancey (offers from NC State, Missouri, Ole Miss, Kentucky), Dan Monteroso (had offers from Iowa and BC), Matt Burke (who was coming off a US Army All American game). So I would say, he did well using his Kent St success to get some players. But after the product he put on the field, mixed with his personality, equaled recruits just not connecting with him and going elsewhere.
Meh. So class #1 was a typical Danny Hope class with a half dozen or so B1G caliber players, headlined by a white QB. Class #2, many of which committed before the end of Hazell's first season was in the books, was even less remarkable. I was expecting more.
 
Meh. So class #1 was a typical Danny Hope class with a half dozen or so B1G caliber players, headlined by a white QB. Class #2, many of which committed before the end of Hazell's first season was in the books, was even less remarkable. I was expecting more.
What does "white QB" have to do with anything? My stance was already that race wasn't a part of it. I made that very clear. It's his lack of personality in relating to recruits or showing them any form of confidence in the words he says.
 
What does "white QB" have to do with anything? My stance was already that race wasn't a part of it. I made that very clear. It's his lack of personality in relating to recruits or showing them any form of confidence in the words he says.
I think we're more or less in agreement then. Race didn't make any difference. I expected it would. That was the essence of the OP.
 
I think we're more or less in agreement then. Race didn't make any difference. I expected it would. That was the essence of the OP.
We are in agreement. I knew what you were stating in the OP, but it's had zero affect on recruiting. Now if he was a Nick Saban, Jim Harbaugh, Leslie Miles personality, all things being equal, I bet race may play a positive advantage. But I think him being a stick in the mud personality wise and then recruits seeing the stick in the mud product he puts on the field, doesn't really interest many potential recruits.
 
In my initial post I conceded after a couple horrible seasons the issue was moot. What about 2013 coming off 11 wins at Kent State? Seems like not too much of a sacrifice to jump on board and support an important cause even if his personality is bland.

Your teacher analogy doesn't fit. No one is protesting systemic discrimination against young teachers. So there is no more motivation for students to perform for younger teachers than older ones. DH2 is obviously a bad recruiter but he hasn't exactly been thrown any bones by black recruits or their families either.

So what you are saying is that is solely the job of the black community to end systemic racism? I hope I don't offend you in any way by saying this, but that is incredibly stupid to think black people in our country should simply 'throw a bone' to each other because of racism.

In fact, the analogy does work because what you are saying is that young black men should be more akin to go play for a young black coach, correct? According to that thought, young men and women should be more likely to work harder for a young teacher because of the ability to relate to experience and age between the two....much like you have proposed black recruits could relate better to a black coach. Sorry, but the argument is idiotic at its' base.
 
So what you are saying is that is solely the job of the black community to end systemic racism? I hope I don't offend you in any way by saying this, but that is incredibly stupid to think black people in our country should simply 'throw a bone' to each other because of racism.
oh cmon...nowhere did he say solely. you are reading way way too much into that.
 
oh cmon...nowhere did he say solely. you are reading way way too much into that.
Thank you. That was not my intent. I believe everyone has a part in solving these types of problems. Can the powers-that-be do more? Yeah, there needs to be more diversity in the coaching ranks, especially head coaching. However, when talented athletes hold so much of the power in their decision who to play for, I can't help but be curious why more aren't supporting the too few black coaches that are out there. I misjudged the enthusiasm or lack thereof that exists to do so. That's all.
 
So what you are saying is that is solely the job of the black community to end systemic racism?
Nope. I don't believe that and tried really hard to not say that.
In fact, the analogy does work because what you are saying is that young black men should be more akin to go play for a young black coach, correct? According to that thought, young men and women should be more likely to work harder for a young teacher because of the ability to relate to experience and age between the two....much like you have proposed black recruits could relate better to a black coach. Sorry, but the argument is idiotic at its' base.
I'll amend my thoughts on your analogy. It's not entirely off as much as it is incomplete. There is a relatability issue (young to young, black to black) that you are picking up on. But it misses on the idea of supporting a cause that may affect you personally. Unless the student aspires to be a teacher, there is no extra motivation to support the young teacher. And even then, young is a temporary condition. So a student will not consciously look at a young teacher and say "All else being equal, I really need to get behind that person because one day that could be me".

I take no offense to being called an idiot just because someone has a different opinion than mine. Whatever. I enjoy diversity of opinion and get bored with the normal talking points. I probably miss the mark on some things but always try to think for myself and examine issues from different perspectives.
 
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I don't care if you're black, white, brown, purple or striped. You either win or lose, that's the only measuring stick.
I thought DH would be a better recruiter than he has, but he's not. End of story. Just because a black head coach sits in your living room, as a recruit, you're still going to go to school where you has the best chance to personally succeed, not where the HC has the same skin color.
Do you think a black HC is going to give black kids more playing time over white kids because of their skin color? Hell no, He's going to play whoever gives "HIM" the best chance to win.
 
I don't care if you're black, white, brown, purple or striped. You either win or lose, that's the only measuring stick.
I thought DH would be a better recruiter than he has, but he's not. End of story. Just because a black head coach sits in your living room, as a recruit, you're still going to go to school where you has the best chance to personally succeed, not where the HC has the same skin color.
Do you think a black HC is going to give black kids more playing time over white kids because of their skin color? Hell no, He's going to play whoever gives "HIM" the best chance to win.
Thanks for the response. It is easy and tempting to over analyze things. Usually the simplest answer is the correct one. Like recruits choosing a coach based on merit. Or like a cop shooting a criminal because they are presenting an imminent threat to someone's safety.
 
I don't think race will play any role at all in the decision to retain or fire Haze. That was a big deal 10 years ago when guys like Ty Willingham (ND) and Bobby Williams (MSU) were let go after relatively brief tenures at high-profile schools. There seem to be more black head coaches now, and no one can argue with DH2's remarkable record of ineptitude.
 
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