What about a belt? A yard stick? A paddle? An open hand?
Why would hitting a child with a stick be wrong but a belt, an open hand, or anything else be OK?
Adrian Peterson
- Thread starter Boilermaker66
- Start date
Why would hitting a child with a stick be wrong but a belt, an open hand, or anything else be OK?
Well, we are talking about what Peterson did so I kept it to beating them with a stick like he did.
I'd say using any object would be wrong. If you need an object to inflict damage what value are you really providing here? Is the amount of physical pain the ultimate goal? Is the lesson going to be better if you are beating them with a belt compared to an open hand?
We don't even beat criminals with objects.
I think spanking with an open hand is more open to debate. It clearly won't cause injury to the scrotum like Peterson did, and should not result in a bunch of injuries. Most studies seem to indicate that spanking doesn't really help long term but at least you aren't causing injuries like those suffered by Adrian's son unless you are really going nuts with the spanking.
I'd say using any object would be wrong. If you need an object to inflict damage what value are you really providing here? Is the amount of physical pain the ultimate goal? Is the lesson going to be better if you are beating them with a belt compared to an open hand?
We don't even beat criminals with objects.
I think spanking with an open hand is more open to debate. It clearly won't cause injury to the scrotum like Peterson did, and should not result in a bunch of injuries. Most studies seem to indicate that spanking doesn't really help long term but at least you aren't causing injuries like those suffered by Adrian's son unless you are really going nuts with the spanking.
Nobody (well, save OP) in this thread has advocated for anything other than limited open-hand swats across the buttocks. Creating strawmen only makes your argument look dumb and arrogant (the worst possible combination).
I'm assuming this is condescending and sarcastic. If this is the case, it would appear your turning a blind eye isn't limited to the mistakes of your children . . . .
You have crystallized my thinking per your definition. Trying to increase the pain is abuse! At the same time I believe many don't understand that discipline is different than abuse such as a spanking with the hand. One is trying to get the child's attention. If we don't get attention there is no lesson nor discipline.
Table 2:
You realize this study says there was no statistically significant difference between any level of spanking (0, =2) by the father on CBCL scores, right? And while there were no significant results for the paternal component, the numbers presented actually show that more spanking led to decreased CBCL scores (again, not significant).
Yes, there was a significant maternal effect at age 5, but oddly enough, age 3 spanking doesn't predict anything. Seems odd to me. If spanking was so strongly associated with the negative outcomes the authors describe, I'd expect all levels to show something.
And given all the information they had (this study was huge and collected a ton of information), it's surprising their models don't explain more variation. Doesn't really mean they're bad or good, just interesting to me. I also thought it was odd they neglected to mention how they actually analyzed the data.
Table 3:
No significant results.
I read this journal a lot. Generally, it's solid, but it's surprising to me the claims they allow the author to make. One comment in particular was odd to me. From the abstract "Father's high-frequency spanking at age 5 was associated with lower child receptive vocabulary scores at age 9." Thing is, it wasn't, at least not in their fully adjusted model.
These results don't scream- spanking is bad- to me. It's a suggestion that a mother spanking their 5 year old child may lead to some negative behavioral effect at age 9.
You would've been better off citing the meta-analysis they mentioned in the second paragraph of the intro.
I'm not arguing for or against spanking. I'm arguing you didn't read the article and if you did you didn't know how to interpret the information.
You realize this study says there was no statistically significant difference between any level of spanking (0, =2) by the father on CBCL scores, right? And while there were no significant results for the paternal component, the numbers presented actually show that more spanking led to decreased CBCL scores (again, not significant).
Yes, there was a significant maternal effect at age 5, but oddly enough, age 3 spanking doesn't predict anything. Seems odd to me. If spanking was so strongly associated with the negative outcomes the authors describe, I'd expect all levels to show something.
And given all the information they had (this study was huge and collected a ton of information), it's surprising their models don't explain more variation. Doesn't really mean they're bad or good, just interesting to me. I also thought it was odd they neglected to mention how they actually analyzed the data.
Table 3:
No significant results.
I read this journal a lot. Generally, it's solid, but it's surprising to me the claims they allow the author to make. One comment in particular was odd to me. From the abstract "Father's high-frequency spanking at age 5 was associated with lower child receptive vocabulary scores at age 9." Thing is, it wasn't, at least not in their fully adjusted model.
These results don't scream- spanking is bad- to me. It's a suggestion that a mother spanking their 5 year old child may lead to some negative behavioral effect at age 9.
You would've been better off citing the meta-analysis they mentioned in the second paragraph of the intro.
I'm not arguing for or against spanking. I'm arguing you didn't read the article and if you did you didn't know how to interpret the information.
I was spanked by hand MAYBE 4 times that I remember from 4 to 6 (I am told by my parents that memory is pretty accurate). I am not sure it was much more than that. The interesting thing is that I even remember the situations. Simply, it was to get my attention and the corrective behavior that followed. I am certainly BETTER for it, I learned to listen!
This post was edited on 9/18 1:48 PM by threeeputtt
This post was edited on 9/18 1:48 PM by threeeputtt
He is alleged to have beat a 4 year old, on his bare butt, to...
the extent that his scrotum bled. That's not a parent spanking his son. No, that's a parent physically abusing their child--and it is a crime in every state. And the fact that such a thing may have been more accepted when you were growing up does not matter. Should we bring back public hangings, or capital punishment for stealing a horse, or drawing and quartering a rapist, or stoning a women who engages in sex outside of marriage?
And thank you for the kind words later in this thread.
the extent that his scrotum bled. That's not a parent spanking his son. No, that's a parent physically abusing their child--and it is a crime in every state. And the fact that such a thing may have been more accepted when you were growing up does not matter. Should we bring back public hangings, or capital punishment for stealing a horse, or drawing and quartering a rapist, or stoning a women who engages in sex outside of marriage?
And thank you for the kind words later in this thread.
What I find contradictory
What I do not get is how in the states that allow paddling in schools, how that state can bring up child abuse charges for a parent who hit a kid with a belt/switch/spoon etc?
That to me gets basically interpreted as it is ok for a government employee to hit your kid but you cannot hit your kid.
And if a kid is paddled in school, or see his or her friends paddled, when they become younger adults and have their own children, how do you explain to them that it is wrong to spank a kid,especially with an instrument?
This is more a general comment as I definitely think Peterson hitting his kid in the scrotum and leaving all of the marks is child abuse.
Over the years I have worked in ERs and the marks left on Peterson's kid are nothing compared to what a paddle will do. Picture the entire buttocks and the top of both hamstrings black/purple/maroon and a kid not being able to sit for a week and have trouble walking-have seen this more than once.
For me, I was spanked, got the belt some, but not often. There were times when I got hit and wondered why and there were times when I should have been spanked and got nothing. In the end, it made me think of my behavior before I acted so it worked. Personally, I think to spank or not to spank depends on the kid. I needed some whippings. Other kids do not.
What I do not get is how in the states that allow paddling in schools, how that state can bring up child abuse charges for a parent who hit a kid with a belt/switch/spoon etc?
That to me gets basically interpreted as it is ok for a government employee to hit your kid but you cannot hit your kid.
And if a kid is paddled in school, or see his or her friends paddled, when they become younger adults and have their own children, how do you explain to them that it is wrong to spank a kid,especially with an instrument?
This is more a general comment as I definitely think Peterson hitting his kid in the scrotum and leaving all of the marks is child abuse.
Over the years I have worked in ERs and the marks left on Peterson's kid are nothing compared to what a paddle will do. Picture the entire buttocks and the top of both hamstrings black/purple/maroon and a kid not being able to sit for a week and have trouble walking-have seen this more than once.
For me, I was spanked, got the belt some, but not often. There were times when I got hit and wondered why and there were times when I should have been spanked and got nothing. In the end, it made me think of my behavior before I acted so it worked. Personally, I think to spank or not to spank depends on the kid. I needed some whippings. Other kids do not.
Re: He is alleged to have beat a 4 year old, on his bare butt, to...
The key word is alleged.
If this turns out to be the case, then he absolutely did cross the line and deserves whatever he gets.
When I was growing up, there was no dropping of the trousers and no application of the hand (or paddle) to any area except the buttocks and no bleeding - only a somewhat sore bum.
The key word is alleged.
If this turns out to be the case, then he absolutely did cross the line and deserves whatever he gets.
When I was growing up, there was no dropping of the trousers and no application of the hand (or paddle) to any area except the buttocks and no bleeding - only a somewhat sore bum.
Re: He is alleged to have beat a 4 year old, on his bare butt, to...
He admitted to doing so and went as far as saying that there was nothing wrong with what he did.
well
you can add another thing you and I agree on.
Heck, I mostly agree with the argument about corporal punishment in most cases being unnecessary and counter-productive, but good grief what an arrogant horses' rear he's being about it.
you can add another thing you and I agree on.
Heck, I mostly agree with the argument about corporal punishment in most cases being unnecessary and counter-productive, but good grief what an arrogant horses' rear he's being about it.
Re: well
It's debatable whether spanking has any place anywhere whatsoever. That he would post a single study he tracked down on Google as evidence, and then "tell me off" in such a way indicates what kind of person he is. It took me 10 seconds on Google to find a study that said children spanked before age 6 turned get better grades and are better adjusted.
And it was reported by Fox News, no less, which probably blows his mind given they are apparently his political media outlet of choice.
In any event, simply because I choose to do something one way and you choose to do it another does not make you ignorant, lazy, or stupid. Sad that he can't seem to grasp that concept, and instead just gets on me about the fact I don't have kids and thus shouldn't even contribute to this thread. (By the way, I was spanked as a kid by my parents... think I'm just fine, thanks!) I always love that defense: you don't have kids, so you don't get an opinion. Right. Got it...
I agree with him on that point as well. I thought your post earlier was right on: sometimes a physical correction (spanking) might be called for in a safety situation.
It's debatable whether spanking has any place anywhere whatsoever. That he would post a single study he tracked down on Google as evidence, and then "tell me off" in such a way indicates what kind of person he is. It took me 10 seconds on Google to find a study that said children spanked before age 6 turned get better grades and are better adjusted.
And it was reported by Fox News, no less, which probably blows his mind given they are apparently his political media outlet of choice.
In any event, simply because I choose to do something one way and you choose to do it another does not make you ignorant, lazy, or stupid. Sad that he can't seem to grasp that concept, and instead just gets on me about the fact I don't have kids and thus shouldn't even contribute to this thread. (By the way, I was spanked as a kid by my parents... think I'm just fine, thanks!) I always love that defense: you don't have kids, so you don't get an opinion. Right. Got it...
Re: I strongly suspect
I don't really post much, heck I don't even really come here much anymore but this topic caught my attention. I came from a family where spanking was applied within reasonable means. I didn't get spanked much because my learning curve was quick. I was also raised in a house where good behavior was more heavily rewarded than bad behavior punished. If I just simply did the right thing, life was pretty good. My wife and I are not against spanking and understand that not every child responds to punishment the same way. For example time outs did not work with me because as a child I had a vivid imagination and was mostly introverted. So in reality time outs were counter productive as a form of punishment.
I also decided to research the topic via medical journals. I quickly realized the study released by the American Academy of Pediatrics was not even widely accepted among pediatricians and that another organization of pediatricians actually shot many holes in the study. What the study did not include were the reactions to other forms of punishment. In fact I could not find a single study that actually showed any other punishment to be more effective in correction poor behavior. One study I stumbled across actually found that kids suffered social anxiety from all forms of correction either from parents or psychologists. So I came to the conclusion that the research in behavior correction in children is actually lacking in consistency and depth. The human brain and its behavior cannot be mathematically "figured" and variables are so wide that accurate consistent data just does not exist yet.
I don't really post much, heck I don't even really come here much anymore but this topic caught my attention. I came from a family where spanking was applied within reasonable means. I didn't get spanked much because my learning curve was quick. I was also raised in a house where good behavior was more heavily rewarded than bad behavior punished. If I just simply did the right thing, life was pretty good. My wife and I are not against spanking and understand that not every child responds to punishment the same way. For example time outs did not work with me because as a child I had a vivid imagination and was mostly introverted. So in reality time outs were counter productive as a form of punishment.
I also decided to research the topic via medical journals. I quickly realized the study released by the American Academy of Pediatrics was not even widely accepted among pediatricians and that another organization of pediatricians actually shot many holes in the study. What the study did not include were the reactions to other forms of punishment. In fact I could not find a single study that actually showed any other punishment to be more effective in correction poor behavior. One study I stumbled across actually found that kids suffered social anxiety from all forms of correction either from parents or psychologists. So I came to the conclusion that the research in behavior correction in children is actually lacking in consistency and depth. The human brain and its behavior cannot be mathematically "figured" and variables are so wide that accurate consistent data just does not exist yet.
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