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A Better Tax System?

Boiler Buck

Boiler Buck

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Mar 11, 2010
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Supposedly Rs are going to vote on a new tax system.....details.....
1. Eliminate IRS
2. Eliminate Personal, Corporate, Death, Gift. & Payroll taxes. No change to other taxes like capital gains, gas, etc.
3. Replace current system with consumption tax where everyone pays as they spend.

Be interesting to hear what % for the NCTax? Other than that, sounds great to me.

Your thoughts?
 
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Boiler Buck said:
Supposedly Rs are going to vote on a new tax system.....details.....
1. Eliminate IRS
2. Eliminate Personal, Corporate, Death, Gift. & Payroll taxes. No change to other taxes like capital gains, gas, etc.
3. Replace current system with consumption tax where everyone pays as they spend.

Be interesting to hear what % for the NCTax? Other than that, sounds great to me.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Lot of IRS workers....AND accountants that like the paycheck and don't want any changes. Others would want some lead in time. Here is a book I read about 17 years ago that was interesting. The idea was founded inside a break of a corporate meeting where they mentioned that they spent 2 hours trying to avoid taxes as opposed to running the company and saw how wrong that was. Anyway, I'm not well informed but it was interesting. I think it was 22% that the book mentioned was added to new product and their approach was to tax new product and get some money from all that visit the USA that would otherwise not pay as much tax money.
Amazon product ASIN 0060875410
 
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bonefish1 said:
Love it.
Then, everyone will have to pay their 'fair share'. Isn't that was libbies and dems want?
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I do recall it being a good book and quite interesting. There is an audio link that might be of interest? Reducing the government control over the peasants from conception to after death would never find the hearts of those wanting unlimited power!
 
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tjreese said:
Lot of IRS workers....AND accountants that like the paycheck and don't want any changes. Others would want some lead in time. Here is a book I read about 17 years ago that was interesting. The idea was founded inside a break of a corporate meeting where they mentioned that they spent 2 hours trying to avoid taxes as opposed to running the company and saw how wrong that was. Anyway, I'm not well informed but it was interesting. I think it was 22% that the book mentioned was added to new product and their approach was to tax new product and get some money from all that visit the USA that would otherwise not pay as much tax money.
View embedded media
Click to expand...

Alot of jobs lost for sure. Still, national enforcement people will be needed to make sure everyone is paying consumption tax at all sites and markets so there are no under the table sales to avoid taxes.

But efficientcy wise, businesses should love getting away from managing for taxes, payroll taxes, etc.
 
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I would suggest that if this results in IRS agents, tax attorneys and accountants being without employment that they consider working in the solar industry much like was recommended for the Keystone workers when Biden killed their jobs.
 
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SIBoiler2 said:
I would suggest that if this results in IRS agents, tax attorneys and accountants being without employment that they consider working in the solar industry much like was recommended for the Keystone workers when Biden killed their jobs.
Click to expand...
You're on a roll!
 
Boiler Buck said:
Supposedly Rs are going to vote on a new tax system.....details.....
1. Eliminate IRS
2. Eliminate Personal, Corporate, Death, Gift. & Payroll taxes. No change to other taxes like capital gains, gas, etc.
3. Replace current system with consumption tax where everyone pays as they spend.

Be interesting to hear what % for the NCTax? Other than that, sounds great to me.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
This NEEDS to happen, but never will. This is by far a superior tax system, but the D's and R's like their infighting over this issue, thus will never go away.
 
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Boiler Buck said:
Alot of jobs lost for sure. Still, national enforcement people will be needed to make sure everyone is paying consumption tax at all sites and markets so there are no under the table sales to avoid taxes.

But efficientcy wise, businesses should love getting away from managing for taxes, payroll taxes, etc.
Click to expand...
If we are paying a consumption tax, the tax has to be collected from the businesses right? There would still be a need for tax accountants to make sure these taxes are being paid properly and most likely some form of IRS to check these things. It would, however, make it so the vast majority of every day people would never have to deal with either of these two groups.
 
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bonefish1 said:
Love it.
Then, everyone will have to pay their 'fair share'. Isn't that was libbies and dems want?
Click to expand...
The problem Democrats will have with this system is that there is no way to tax the individuals that save money. This system is obviously biased against Democrats who spend their whole paycheck and then consume even more (and would pay more taxes) when they charge on credit.

But it sounds great to me!
 
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TeddyValentineDidNothingWrong said:
Repealing taxes on corporations and billionaires and forcing working and middle class people to pay 30% sales tax on everything is a great idea! You folks are smart.
Click to expand...

Please list the line in HR 25 ( the bill refered to in this thread) that lists the proposed sales tax rate @ 30%.

(That is a polite way to say you have NO idea what you are talking about)
 
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TheGunner said:
The problem Democrats will have with this system is that there is no way to tax the individuals that save money. This system is obviously biased against Democrats who spend their whole paycheck and then consume even more (and would pay more taxes) when they charge on credit.

But it sounds great to me!
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I'm curious... how would the people on welfare, who live in Republican controlled 9 of the 10 highest welfare recipient states, (NM being the outlier), pay taxes? Would their welfare money be exempt when they spent it?
 
Boiler Buck said:
Please list the line in HR 25 ( the bill refered to in this thread) that lists the proposed sales tax rate @ 30%.

(That is a polite way to say you have NO idea what you are talking about)
Click to expand...
"(1) FOR 2025 .—In the calendar year 2025, the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments for
the taxable property or service."

So the argument is let's say hypothetically we buy something for $10 and it is taxed at 30%, and we pay $13. 23% of that gross payment of $13 is $3. The way the bill calculates the 23% is deceptive, or at least that's the argument.

Also keep in mind that states will need to increase their sales tax to replace the income tax that they currently track through the IRS. And maybe those IRS workers can apply for a job with the new agency that will be needed to monitor and enforce the new federal sales tax. It's not as simple as charge a 23% sales tax and everything else goes away. But I'll admit it sounds good if you can make the numbers work.

Just curious, what are Republicans going to tell seniors that just retired? They spent their whole life paying income tax, and now that they don't have an income they will be paying 23% in sales tax. There's going to be some pissed off old people.
 
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Peabodius said:
"(1) FOR 2025 .—In the calendar year 2025, the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments for
the taxable property or service."

So the argument is let's say hypothetically we buy something for $10 and it is taxed at 30%, and we pay $13. 23% of that gross payment of $13 is $3. The way the bill calculates the 23% is deceptive, or at least that's the argument.

Also keep in mind that states will need to increase their sales tax to replace the income tax that they currently track through the IRS. And maybe those IRS workers can apply for a job with the new agency that will be needed to monitor and enforce the new federal sales tax. It's not as simple as charge a 23% sales tax and everything else goes away. But I'll admit it sounds good if you can make the numbers work.

Just curious, what are Republicans going to tell seniors that just retired? They spent their whole life paying income tax, and now that they don't have an income they will be paying 23% in sales tax. There's going to be some pissed off old people.
Click to expand...

Thanks for verifying it's not 30%

Side note....All seniors have incomes.

But l, I am sure this bill will be retooled & re-worked several times to be sure the federal government still screws the American public while seeming to help said public regardless of which party supports it.
 
TeddyValentineDidNothingWrong said:
Repealing taxes on corporations and billionaires and forcing working and middle class people to pay 30% sales tax on everything is a great idea! You folks are smart.
Click to expand...
First of all. The tax wouldn't be 30%. Second of all, everyone, including the middle class, would get to take home their entire paycheck. Lastly, the rich will ultimately pay more in taxes because, well, they consume more.
 
Do Dah Day said:
I'm curious... how would the people on welfare, who live in Republican controlled 9 of the 10 highest welfare recipient states, (NM being the outlier), pay taxes? Would their welfare money be exempt when they spent it?
Click to expand...
Nope. No exemption. The welfare monies could be adjusted a little to make a difference, but no exemptions.

At least that's how I'd do it. Make it as absolutely simple as possible.
 
Peabodius said:
"(1) FOR 2025 .—In the calendar year 2025, the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments for
the taxable property or service."

So the argument is let's say hypothetically we buy something for $10 and it is taxed at 30%, and we pay $13. 23% of that gross payment of $13 is $3. The way the bill calculates the 23% is deceptive, or at least that's the argument.

Also keep in mind that states will need to increase their sales tax to replace the income tax that they currently track through the IRS. And maybe those IRS workers can apply for a job with the new agency that will be needed to monitor and enforce the new federal sales tax. It's not as simple as charge a 23% sales tax and everything else goes away. But I'll admit it sounds good if you can make the numbers work.
Click to expand...
You won't need a "new" organization to monitor it. It would be infinitely more simple than our current system. I would hope a watered down version of the IRS would suffice.

Many states operate with no income tax at all and have similar sales tax rates as those that do have income tax. It's not like it would really be hard for them to adjust.

Florida, for example has no income tax and a 6% sales tax. OTOH, Indiana has a 5% income tax and a 7% sales tax.
Peabodius said:
Just curious, what are Republicans going to tell seniors that just retired? They spent their whole life paying income tax, and now that they don't have an income they will be paying 23% in sales tax. There's going to be some pissed off old people.
Click to expand...
So we should never change a terrible and broken system because there are people that would be "pissed"? That's a terrible argument. You're always going to piss someone off no matter what you do. The vast amounts of people that would benefit after it's passed would be infinitely greater.

Now, for arguments sake, you could help out that one generation in some form if needed. However, a large amount of those people would still benefit from the new system. Many people will have pensions they are living off of. They will no longer pay income tax on those pension payments.
 
Boilermaker03 said:
First of all. The tax wouldn't be 30%. Second of all, everyone, including the middle class, would get to take home their entire paycheck. Lastly, the rich will ultimately pay more in taxes because, well, they consume more.
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I tried finding my book (Fair Tax) which was written a long time ago and it appears it has been loaned out many years ago. In the book it was determined that 22% of the current price was due to taxes at that point already included in the products we buy when the book was published. I have not read any current proposals, but the tax on consumables would bring in more tax money from all visitors to the USA that normally wouldn't have (vacations, foreign gov officials etc).

You will not have dems above the average dems voters no matter what is worked out. They have no desire to reduce the power held by the blob in controlling tax laws...too much money at stake as 87,000 new IRS members with firearms can attest. I wish I had read the book more recently as I recall there were some VERY interesting things I liked and a couple of areas of questions. BTW, I'm working on taxes today and have been for a couple of days...I absolutely despise the complicated tax law that most of us do not fully understand or use...all evolutionized over many years to appease certain demographics that it helps. I liked Trumps attempt at making it simpler for most and it is something that needs deep discussion and review because there will be winners and losers as in all things "changed".
 
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Boiler Buck said:
But l, I am sure this bill will be retooled & re-worked several times to be sure the federal government still screws the American public while seeming to help said public regardless of which party supports it.
Click to expand...

We know what will actually happen in the long run...
We will end up with a new national sales tax on top of the existing income tax.
 
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BoilerBiker said:
We know what will actually happen in the long run...
We will end up with a new national sales tax on top of the existing income tax.
Click to expand...

Yep, regardless of party WDC politicians are not a friend of the middle & low class. They take in a dollar & spend $1.29 no matter who is in charge.
 
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Do Dah Day said:
I'm curious... how would the people on welfare, who live in Republican controlled 9 of the 10 highest welfare recipient states, (NM being the outlier), pay taxes? Would their welfare money be exempt when they spent it?
Click to expand...
Anything they buy would be taxed (sales tax)
 
Boilermaker03 said:
You won't need a "new" organization to monitor it. It would be infinitely more simple than our current system. I would hope a watered down version of the IRS would suffice.

Many states operate with no income tax at all and have similar sales tax rates as those that do have income tax. It's not like it would really be hard for them to adjust.

Florida, for example has no income tax and a 6% sales tax. OTOH, Indiana has a 5% income tax and a 7% sales tax.

So we should never change a terrible and broken system because there are people that would be "pissed"? That's a terrible argument. You're always going to piss someone off no matter what you do. The vast amounts of people that would benefit after it's passed would be infinitely greater.

Now, for arguments sake, you could help out that one generation in some form if needed. However, a large amount of those people would still benefit from the new system. Many people will have pensions they are living off of. They will no longer pay income tax on those pension payments.
Click to expand...
Indiana makes slightly more from income taxes than it does from sales tax. So do we jump to a 14% state tax on top of a 23% (which is really 30%) federal tax to recoup lost income taxes? If the federal tax is 23% of the gross payment, are they also taxing the money you pay for state taxes? Just curious. I've already said that a fair tax has a lot of benefits in theory. I would love to have a more simplified tax system. But this bill seems way oversimplified considering how radically it changes our tax system.

To your second point, I have no problem changing a broken system if it's for the greater good. I'm saying Republicans risk alienating their base. Which is probably why the idea has floundered for over 20 years and why we are probably wasting our time talking about it.
 
This is fun to discuss as the majority would believe.... taxing spending is a fairer approach than taxing income.

However, the main reason this won't pass is the politicians on both sides won't be able to help their base..... The Rich. Who they craft creative tax code for now. Both the Rs & the Ds live @ the feed trough of their rich donors and won't do anything to make things fairer for the poor & middle class at the expense of their rich donors base. Which was why the ridiculously high amount of 23% was selected to be the rate in the first place. You see, this bill is like a lot of WDC moves in just another facade....where both parties want the appearance of trying to help and make things fairer for the middle class while all along their main purpose is only helping their rich donor class.
 
Peabodius said:
Indiana makes slightly more from income taxes than it does from sales tax. So do we jump to a 14% state tax on top of a 23% (which is really 30%) federal tax to recoup lost income taxes? If the federal tax is 23% of the gross payment, are they also taxing the money you pay for state taxes? Just curious. I've already said that a fair tax has a lot of benefits in theory. I would love to have a more simplified tax system. But this bill seems way oversimplified considering how radically it changes our tax system.

To your second point, I have no problem changing a broken system if it's for the greater good. I'm saying Republicans risk alienating their base. Which is probably why the idea has floundered for over 20 years and why we are probably wasting our time talking about it.
Click to expand...
Why would state taxes have to jump? If anything, it should be a sign to the state that we could do away with our income tax and go direct consumption tax. Much like the example I gave above with Florida.

I'm not following how Republicans are alienating their base. Perhaps you could explain that a bit.

Here are a couple of points.

1. Cost of goods are higher because of income taxes. Corporations pass those costs on to the consumer, so the cost of goods SHOULD come down once income taxes are removed. OR it will allow corporations to pay their employees more, or both.

2. Over one half of a trillion dollars are spent every single year in paperwork alone to comply with our current tax code. Those dollars will also be pumped into the economy in much more useful ways, creating economic benefits.

3. Everyone will be bringing home their full paycheck giving them more ability to consume. Thus creating an economic increase, thus you could easily see tax revenues go up significantly without even increasing the current "consumption" tax.
 
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TeddyValentineDidNothingWrong said:
www.taxpolicycenter.org

Here Comes The FairTax … Again

The idea of replacing all major federal taxes with a national sales tax – and using the opportunity to “abolish” the IRS – has been...
www.taxpolicycenter.org www.taxpolicycenter.org
Click to expand...
So you honestly believe, that the group of people that can and does buy the most expensive stuff our society produces as well as the normal daily expenses of food, clothing (which they buy more expensive clothing) etc. is going to somehow pay less? You're incredibly naive.

Do you just believe everything the left puts out there?
 
Boilermaker03 said:
So you honestly believe, that the group of people that can and does buy the most expensive stuff our society produces as well as the normal daily expenses of food, clothing (which they buy more expensive clothing) etc. is going to somehow pay less? You're incredibly naive.

Do you just believe everything the left puts out there?
Click to expand...
Do you not understand that those rich people also hire accountants who get their effective tax rate down to almost nothing through a variety of loopholes and deferrals?
 
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