Agree with this. Maryland should be top tier. MSU, IU, PU and UM are all on the second tier right behind Maryland. I could see any team in the second tier finish in any order. I think all four teams are going to be very good and very close in standings when it's all said and done.
I know what the so-called experts are saying, but I don't buy it. I just can't get behind either UM or IU being in that second tier. UM has yet to show me the kind of play that would justify landing in your (and the pendants) second shelf with Purdue and MSU. I expect it to be a 3 team race (Maryland, Purdue and MSU) to the finish, with the other teams spoiling one or two of the contender's records on any given night. However, neither UM nor IU have shown the team development, consistency, and talent that you see in the top 3.
Even now, I have some nagging doubts about MSU. The only two teams that have played together last year, and made an impact were Purdue and MU. MSU has a completely new set of pieces to be crafted into a team. We go on only the faith in Izzo that he can craft them into a contender. I don't share that same faith when it comes to Beilein or Crean.
Let's face it, both IU and UM are a tough sell. 7th place IU adds a 5 star post, just like all the teams above them, and suddenly they are top 3 team? 9th place Michigan gets some kids back from injuries (serious ones) and these kids are expected to pick up where they left off? Doesn't usually work that way with injuries. Sorry, but here is another deal just like those two. I've got some land in Florida for you, real cheap...
That's fine you don't agree. I can follow your same logic and offer you a reason that Purdue shouldn't be in the second tier. Who were your best wins last year? IU twice, OSU and Iowa. Best win out of conference was NC State. No real contenders there. Now all of a sudden you're going to be at the top of the B10 and a Final Four contender? Pardon me for wanting to see it to believe it.I know what the so-called experts are saying, but I don't buy it. I just can't get behind either UM or IU being in that second tier. UM has yet to show me the kind of play that would justify landing in your (and the pendants) second shelf with Purdue and MSU. I expect it to be a 3 team race (Maryland, Purdue and MSU) to the finish, with the other teams spoiling one or two of the contender's records on any given night. However, neither UM nor IU have shown the team development, consistency, and talent that you see in the top 3.
Even now, I have some nagging doubts about MSU. The only two teams that have played together last year, and made an impact were Purdue and MU. MSU has a completely new set of pieces to be crafted into a team. We go on only the faith in Izzo that he can craft them into a contender. I don't share that same faith when it comes to Beilein or Crean.
Let's face it, both IU and UM are a tough sell. 7th place IU adds a 5 star post, just like all the teams above them, and suddenly they are top 3 team? 9th place Michigan gets some kids back from injuries (serious ones) and these kids are expected to pick up where they left off? Doesn't usually work that way with injuries. Sorry, but here is another deal just like those two. I've got some land in Florida for you, real cheap...
I don't know about OSU. They have some talent but they're young. Until Purdue shows they can consistently beat the top teams in the B10, it's hard to just automatically put them right behind Maryland. That's why I lump them in the group of MSU, IU and UM. I think it's pretty certain Purdue (and IU for that matter) will finish in the top four or five of the B10. I'm just not sure exactly where. Anything below fifth for either team would be a huge disappointment IMO.
Fair, but they PLAYED a ton better than they did earlier in the year. Not sure I'd throw out "quality victories" as a reason to hold someone down. Purdue didn't really beat a bunch of good teams....
Well they did win the conference outright a couple years ago when the conference was pretty strong.
Yeah but your comment was about Crean being able to finish a season strong within the conference. My point was he's done that.
The bold statement is easy to answer. If you can't or couldn't see the disadvantage we were in for the majority of the year without a legit big man, then there isn't any reason to discuss this with you as you aren't smart enough to grasp the concept. Is it just everyone is being a homer saying that the only thing IU was missing last year was a legit big man? What did we get? A legit big man. Weird, huh? Crean's roster mismanagement cost of several games last year including one to you guys.Let's keep this simple, and just focus in on IU and UM for the moment. We can leave Purdue initially, so you don't get confused and start calling things "homer". You seem to justify your position based a lot on what others say, but I think that is a flawed approach, especially in a basketball forum such as this. You need to make your own judgments, and I can understand if your judgments are different than mine. I prize independent thinking and rarely find it among those who parrot what the talking heads say.
UM finished 9th in the conference, losing most of their BIG games. They finished up losing 8 of 11 games at the end of the year. That is not playing well at the end of the year. I don't know where you get that opinion you stated as your lead argument on this matter. They had some kids "step up" because somebody gets the basketball and has to shoot it. The kids playing weren't terrible by any means, but they weren't great either. They might return as much as IU or Purdue, but they return a 9th place team, so WTF? Furthermore, I don't mean to imply they can't contend or improve next year. They might, but nothing has shown me they can. I just don't buy the hype for them. There is nothing to justify a top tier prediction, except that UM fans buy a lot of junk that says UM is great. Trust me on this, they are some of the neediest fans of any BIG team.
As for IU, you got to be kidding me, right? You ask me why I discount your 5-star while promoting mine? Well, I didn't do either. Did I mention Purdue's 5-star recruit, even once in my post? I think you have a dialog going in your head, and responded to that. I just contend that IU does not return a team that can be a contender. I don't disrespect your 5-star. I just don't think he'll make the impact you imagine.
Let's break this down. Purdue finishes in 3rd place, and returns almost the same team this year, but adds a 5-star center. Maryland, UW, MSU, & OSU all add 5-star players. IU returns a 7th place team and adds a 5-star player. What makes you think your 5-star player is going to boost you over all the teams in front of you next year who recruited as well or better than IU did? Again, I am not buying the hype. IU has not shown me anything to think they will be a second tier contender next year.
Please re-watch the two Purdue-IU games from last year and you will quickly see the difference in the teams. It goes deeper than what shows on the score board. In the second game there were some great heroics by some of the IU players, but even that can't overcome fundamental problems with the way the IU team plays basketball. You return that same team. Adding a freshman center, and removing HMP in either of those game would not have changed the outcome, and the defeats would have been worse. You will note, so far my contention about these games does not require any puffery about Purdue's incoming freshmen class, the two best basketball players in the state of Indiana. I just don't see how IU or UM can be placed in the same level as MSU, Purdue and MU. Heck, given OSU's spectacular recruiting, I would place them ahead of IU for next year, if we were just going on rankings of individual players.
By the way, I see that like many of your basketball players, you confuse Meth with Math.
It's really hard to predict how good IU will be because their season is so dependent on Bryant, and I can only guess how ready Bryant will be as a freshman.
I'm not sure a solid PG will be enough to overcome Maryland over the course of the season either way (not sure anyone will be able to). They are going to be nasty. I do think Purdue has less question marks than IU does. I don't think Bryant has to be an All B10 type player as a freshman. He just needs to play defense without fouling, rebound and be able to score in one on one situations. I get the big question there is can he stay on the court. It's been done before, so I wouldn't be shocked to see it happen. I know there will be games where he's in foul trouble, too.
Let's keep this simple, and just focus in on IU and UM for the moment. We can leave Purdue initially, so you don't get confused and start calling things "homer". You seem to justify your position based a lot on what others say, but I think that is a flawed approach, especially in a basketball forum such as this. You need to make your own judgments, and I can understand if your judgments are different than mine. I prize independent thinking and rarely find it among those who parrot what the talking heads say.
UM finished 9th in the conference, losing most of their BIG games. They finished up losing 8 of 11 games at the end of the year. That is not playing well at the end of the year. I don't know where you get that opinion you stated as your lead argument on this matter. They had some kids "step up" because somebody gets the basketball and has to shoot it. The kids playing weren't terrible by any means, but they weren't great either. They might return as much as IU or Purdue, but they return a 9th place team, so WTF? Furthermore, I don't mean to imply they can't contend or improve next year. They might, but nothing has shown me they can. I just don't buy the hype for them. There is nothing to justify a top tier prediction, except that UM fans buy a lot of junk that says UM is great. Trust me on this, they are some of the neediest fans of any BIG team.
As for IU, you got to be kidding me, right? You ask me why I discount your 5-star while promoting mine? Well, I didn't do either. Did I mention Purdue's 5-star recruit, even once in my post? I think you have a dialog going in your head, and responded to that. I just contend that IU does not return a team that can be a contender. I don't disrespect your 5-star. I just don't think he'll make the impact you imagine.
Let's break this down. Purdue finishes in 3rd place, and returns almost the same team this year, but adds a 5-star center. Maryland, UW, MSU, & OSU all add 5-star players. IU returns a 7th place team and adds a 5-star player. What makes you think your 5-star player is going to boost you over all the teams in front of you next year who recruited as well or better than IU did? Again, I am not buying the hype. IU has not shown me anything to think they will be a second tier contender next year.
Please re-watch the two Purdue-IU games from last year and you will quickly see the difference in the teams. It goes deeper than what shows on the score board. In the second game there were some great heroics by some of the IU players, but even that can't overcome fundamental problems with the way the IU team plays basketball. You return that same team. Adding a freshman center, and removing HMP in either of those game would not have changed the outcome, and the defeats would have been worse. You will note, so far my contention about these games does not require any puffery about Purdue's incoming freshmen class, the two best basketball players in the state of Indiana. I just don't see how IU or UM can be placed in the same level as MSU, Purdue and MU. Heck, given OSU's spectacular recruiting, I would place them ahead of IU for next year, if we were just going on rankings of individual players.
By the way, I see that like many of your basketball players, you confuse Meth with Math.
I don't know if solid point guard play is enough to overcome Maryland either, but it is probably the single biggest wild card right now in knowing how good Purdue will be. It's hard to imagine Purdue even in the championship discussion is point guard play isn't at least adequate. On the other hand, I really like how Purdue is positioned, 2-5. If someone surprises at point guard, I think Purdue will be greatly improved over last season and a legitimate conference title threat.
I don't know a ton about Bryant but I get the feeling IU fans are expecting too much from him. He's the #27 player in his class, not #15 (Zeller) nor #8 (Vonleh).
We don't need a ton from him. Like I said earlier, defense, rebounding and the occasional basket in a one on one situation. He doesn't have to be Zeller for us. We have enough scoring 1-4, that should take some of the pressure off of him. He will be expected to produce on the defensive end immediately, so I agree with you if that's what you were meaning. Offensively though, I don't think we're expecting too much.
Oh, one last question. Your whole logic revolves around bringing back the same players along with bringing in some good talent, and linking that to where they finished the prior year. Right? You say UM returns a lot of people from a 9th place team or whatever. IU returns everyone from a 7th place team or whatever. So how did that same Purdue team that finished close to the bottom, two years ago, return a good portion of their team, adding in a few good pieces magically jump to a tie for third? Pretty much contradicts your logic. You returned Hammons, Davis, Smotherman, Stephens, and Scott while bringing in Haas, Edwards and Mathias.Let's keep this simple, and just focus in on IU and UM for the moment. We can leave Purdue initially, so you don't get confused and start calling things "homer". You seem to justify your position based a lot on what others say, but I think that is a flawed approach, especially in a basketball forum such as this. You need to make your own judgments, and I can understand if your judgments are different than mine. I prize independent thinking and rarely find it among those who parrot what the talking heads say.
UM finished 9th in the conference, losing most of their BIG games. They finished up losing 8 of 11 games at the end of the year. That is not playing well at the end of the year. I don't know where you get that opinion you stated as your lead argument on this matter. They had some kids "step up" because somebody gets the basketball and has to shoot it. The kids playing weren't terrible by any means, but they weren't great either. They might return as much as IU or Purdue, but they return a 9th place team, so WTF? Furthermore, I don't mean to imply they can't contend or improve next year. They might, but nothing has shown me they can. I just don't buy the hype for them. There is nothing to justify a top tier prediction, except that UM fans buy a lot of junk that says UM is great. Trust me on this, they are some of the neediest fans of any BIG team.
As for IU, you got to be kidding me, right? You ask me why I discount your 5-star while promoting mine? Well, I didn't do either. Did I mention Purdue's 5-star recruit, even once in my post? I think you have a dialog going in your head, and responded to that. I just contend that IU does not return a team that can be a contender. I don't disrespect your 5-star. I just don't think he'll make the impact you imagine.
Let's break this down. Purdue finishes in 3rd place, and returns almost the same team this year, but adds a 5-star center. Maryland, UW, MSU, & OSU all add 5-star players. IU returns a 7th place team and adds a 5-star player. What makes you think your 5-star player is going to boost you over all the teams in front of you next year who recruited as well or better than IU did? Again, I am not buying the hype. IU has not shown me anything to think they will be a second tier contender next year.
Please re-watch the two Purdue-IU games from last year and you will quickly see the difference in the teams. It goes deeper than what shows on the score board. In the second game there were some great heroics by some of the IU players, but even that can't overcome fundamental problems with the way the IU team plays basketball. You return that same team. Adding a freshman center, and removing HMP in either of those game would not have changed the outcome, and the defeats would have been worse. You will note, so far my contention about these games does not require any puffery about Purdue's incoming freshmen class, the two best basketball players in the state of Indiana. I just don't see how IU or UM can be placed in the same level as MSU, Purdue and MU. Heck, given OSU's spectacular recruiting, I would place them ahead of IU for next year, if we were just going on rankings of individual players.
By the way, I see that like many of your basketball players, you confuse Meth with Math.
Well first off SNU, I really don't think anyone from here was over on IU's or UM's forums this time last year saying that Purdue was a sure thing to tie for third. If they had they would have been rightly laughed off those boards.
That's fine. Again, come to the main rivals board. Plenty of fans from all teams are there. The majority (including Purdue fans) seem to be closer to what I believe compared to Methboy. I started a prediction thread on that board. Only one person (PU homer) had Purdue higher than 3rd and IU lower than 5th. Most had both teams neck and neck.
Lots of challenges here. Let's talk about UM first. I didn't say UM can't or wouldn't compete. I just said they have shown me nothing to make me think they will. There will always be teams that jump up higher than expected, and those that disappoint. That is why they play the games. Let me remind you that what we are talking about in this thread is expectations, right? I mean I might win the Power Ball Lottery, but I don't expect to.
Lol. Alright bro. There is so much wrong with your posts it's just insane. Why don't you post your thoughts on the main board. See what type of response you get. I would doubt anyone really agrees. Hell, even the Purdue posters over there acknowledge that both UM and IU will have pretty tough teams next year. But I know you wouldn't stick around because deep down you know you'd get laughed off the board.Lots of challenges here. Let's talk about UM first. I didn't say UM can't or wouldn't compete. I just said they have shown me nothing to make me think they will. There will always be teams that jump up higher than expected, and those that disappoint. That is why they play the games. Let me remind you that what we are talking about in this thread is expectations, right? I mean I might win the Power Ball Lottery, but I don't expect to.
My expectation for UM does not put them in the top half of the BIG next year. They played poorly at the end of last year, and by the end of the year, that was even with one of their injured starters returned. Their recruiting was not that great. They bring in a 6'9" PF from Germany. Whoopee! That was their only commitment for 2015 as far as I can tell.
Look, I just don't buy into the hype around UM. Those fans will buy any publication that spouts "UM = Good". If I were trying to sell some crap sports paper, I would sure as heck include some UM=Good fiction just to make some money. That is all it is. Money talks right now, but most of it is straight BS.
You seem very proud to have found a chink in my argument with the performance of the Purdue team last year, so let's look at that. When Purdue jumped from last to third, it was with the addition of 3 players that moved into starting roles. Purdue had a completely different team than we had the year before. I don't see that happening to any of the better teams in our discussion except MSU and OSU. Those two teams will be hard to predict because they have so many new and very talented players.
On the other hand, UM and IU return much of their same components from last year. IU exchanges Bryant for HMP - not much change there as far as I am concerned. UM bring some miscellaneous German guy into a squad that underperformed most of last year. Neither of these two situations raise my expectations of these teams performing better than mid-league next year.
Last year, Purdue finishes the BIG at 12-6, IU at 9-9. That is a significant difference in the respective records. Once again, look at the Purdue IU games. Even the game at AssHall was not as close as the score. Did IU ever lead in that game? If you recall, Jon Octeus fouled out with almost 3 minutes to go, so the Purdue team that beat the IU team at the end of the game is the same one coming back this year. Also, you might also recall that HMP was a more important part of the IU game than you seem to think. Most of your ilk on Peegs dismiss HMP as a lousy player. That is patently wrong. IU had early success going inside with Perea. That is something Bryant might not be able to accomplish next year.
All in all, your bluster filled arguments don't seem to have the substance to push me off my position. I still think next year is a 3 team race: Maryland, Purdue, and MSU. The only reason I put MSU in there is because of Izzo's track record of building teams, and knowing that he has the talented components of a good team next year. Neither IU nor UM have made any significant changes to rosters that finished in the back half of the BIG, so no dice that they miraculously become competitive.
The 4* 6'9" freshman Bryant will be an upgrade from the 4* 6'8" junior Perea? Perea was the only reason IU stayed in the game the first half. He scored 8 of your first 13 points. After he picked up his 2nd foul at the 12 minute mark, you guys scored a whopping 13 more points to finish the half. He finished with 10 points and 2 blocks. Your new 4* won't average those numbers. We played over 1/4 of the game without Octeus without any drop off. The game was at IU! We add the 2 best Indiana high school players to our team. You replace one 4* undersized big with another 4* undersized big.
You're wasting your time using facts like that. Biggie alone is going to school Bryant let alone what AJH/Haas will do to him.
