Terrence Shannon, Jr. ordered to stand trial
- Thread starter KenTre1983
- Start date
"As I understand it, the judge overturned the suspension. I suppose Underwood could have benched him."
Wrong, the judge restored his playing time. Underwood has to play him or be held in contempt.
"If a person is innocent, they should look forward to a trial rather than delaying it or avoiding it."
TSJ and his attorneys have said all along they look forward to going to trial.
Wrong, the judge restored his playing time. Underwood has to play him or be held in contempt.
"If a person is innocent, they should look forward to a trial rather than delaying it or avoiding it."
TSJ and his attorneys have said all along they look forward to going to trial.
I mean what else are they going to say?
No one truly looks forward to going to trial if they can squash it before
The judge can't tell Underwood to play TSJ. Is he held in contempt if he plays him 25 minutes instead of 35? Come on man.
Want to run a few things by you since you are more qualified than most of us to address them.
1. As a D1 scholarship player, you entered an agreement to be able to play and represent the university, correct? You are playing at the convenience of said school who sought your services. You essentially have been given the privilege/opportunity to play but do you have a Right to play?
2. Since they changed the second charge to a felony instead of the initial misdemeanor charge, does that say anything about how strong the DA feels the case is?
3. Does the university have the right to set expectations for behavior of a student/player and have processes in place to ensure that they can enact consequences such as suspension or removal for those whose behavior goes against or falls below?
4. Do you feel it was appropriate for the judge to overturn the suspension because it would damage his draft stock and eligibility? Even if his opportunity to play is a a privilege not a right to begin with?
There is in that case, yes. TSJ is really hoping not to have to do that, though.
That's essentially what the ruling said, yes.
And now it's federal law, too.
No NCAA ban during sexual misconduct inquiries
New federal regulations will prevent colleges and coaches from suspending athletes accused of sexual misconduct while school officials investigate complaints against them.
Big difference between getting reinstated and the coach being required to play him lest he be held in contempt. A judge can't tell a coach how to coach. All they did was decide that U of I was wrong to suspend him. Big difference.That's essentially what the ruling said, yes.
And now it's federal law, too.
No NCAA ban during sexual misconduct inquiries
New federal regulations will prevent colleges and coaches from suspending athletes accused of sexual misconduct while school officials investigate complaints against them.africa.espn.com
1. The issue here is due process. You have a right to some level of due process. The school set up that due process, and then according to the judge, didn't follow it. If they had, the judge might very well have ruled differently. So it was less about a right to play as a right to at least minimal due process. That effectively answers 3 and 4.
2. I assume it says the DA thinks they have enough to support the higher charge. Of course, it's also possible the DA thinks he can force a plea deal to a lesser charge by putting the risk of a greater charge out there. A common move in the civilian world is to charge big, force a plea deal to less because (particularly poor defendants with public defenders) the accused is afraid of losing even if innocent. But that's less likely in this case I'd think. I never charged anything I didn't think was appropriate. I often had to rein in junior prosecutors from stuffing the charges, but the military has a different mindset. Still, even there, there were charges we were willing to drop in exchange for a guilty plea to less.
Again, all that says is you have to complete a due process, well, process.That's essentially what the ruling said, yes.
And now it's federal law, too.
No NCAA ban during sexual misconduct inquiries
New federal regulations will prevent colleges and coaches from suspending athletes accused of sexual misconduct while school officials investigate complaints against them.
You hold that process, you find someone culpable more likely than not, and you can suspend or expel.
What you can't do is provide no due process and suspend merely on an accusation. It's up to universities to get serious about setting up a timely process for an investigation and hearing. It can be done in a short time.
I mean I routinely had arraignment and a trial date set in the military in 60 days or less. This is a much lower due process burden.
No, that's not what she ruled. The ruling was the suspension deprived Shannon of “protected property interests”, I.e. his NIL deals and future draft status. Not playing him or playing him less than a 1st team all conference player deserved would most definitely not be in line with that ruling.
From an Illinois release:
"In keeping with the Court’s directive, Coach Underwood was instructed to treat Mr. Shannon as he would any other member of the team in good standing and not limit participation based on the involved allegations."
Not to mention of course that Underwood wanted to play TSJ as much as possible to win a bunch of games.
Which means Underwood didn't have to play him any particular set of minutes. Because he doesn't have to play anyone any particular set of minutes. What he couldn't do was punish him for the alleged conduct that the school had given him inappropriate due process.
We know this because in his first game back, Shannon neither started nor played his usual number of minutes. The judge didn't say anything.
And if the school wanted to suspend him later, they could have so long as they followed their own due process.
Pretty sure a positive drug test is pretty conclusive, unlike an uncorroborated accusation. DUI charge would most likely have evidence such as a breathalyzer which are considered fairly reliable as well.
These things are much easier to establish at the level of due process required for a suspension than a he said she said claim. Even if you have DNA evidence, that takes a lot longer than a drug or DUI test.
Fun fact: drug cases are actually hard to prosecute technically because of all the steps you have to follow, getting the right witnesses, establishing chain of custody, etc. Of course, once you do that, pretty easy.
Again, there's not much more needed in those type of cases. It's not testimony based usually, it's a simple quick and fairly accurate test. Not necessarily good enough for beyond reasonable doubt but good enough for this level of due process.
I’ll ask was Cline ever charged with any crime? He was suspended for a few games by Painter as were several other players. Discipline was handled in house. Could those players have gone to a judge and said their suspensions were affecting their future potential nba contracts and had their suspensions lifted?
I’m of the opinion player suspensions should be handled by the coach or school rather than an outside court order.
Purdue admissions used to have a requirement that a student needed 4 years of high school math to gain admittance. Could a student go to the court and say Michigan only requires 3 years And force Purdue to change their admission requirements?
Yes - according to online court records, Ryan Cline was charged with one count of possession of marijuana in Hamilton County on July 11. He entered into a pretrial diversion program on Aug. 5.
From various online sources:
"Pre-trial diversion in the State of Indiana is a program that allows certain criminal defendants to avoid conviction by completing a set of conditions prescribed by the prosecutor’s office. The availability of pre-trial diversion programs varies by county and generally, the program is only available to first-time offenders or individuals who have committed non-violent crimes. However, even if a defendant is eligible, the opportunity to participate in a diversion program is completely at the prosecutor’s discretion. Defendants who take part in a pre-trial diversion program are typically required to complete certain conditions, such as community service, drug testing, counseling, or other rehabilitation programs. If the defendant successfully completes the program, the charges against them are typically dismissed, and they may avoid a conviction. In contrast, if the defendant fails to complete the program, they may be prosecuted for the original charges placed upon them."
He was suspended for three games for a violation of team rules.
As to your last question, Wole - that would be NEGATORY on that. Over.
I don't know what Purdue's policy was at the time and whether it was followed. If it was, no. If it wasn't, sure, in theory.
Then again, people "plead guilty" all of the time. Cline didn't challenge because he knew a challenge would do no good. Shannon maintains his innocence.
Cline also wasn't a clear NBA potential player like Shannon is. So there's another difference.
I have no idea why you think a court is going to say none of our business to a potential due process violation with a cognizable serious deprivation just because it involves a coach and a player.
I’m not so sure Shannon being suspended affected his potential NBA career and that he needed to play to ensure he was drafted. There have been other players kicked out of schools. And players who flunked out and players that played overseas and in g leagues that were still drafted. Playing for Illinois had no real bearing on his draft stock.
He could have signed to play with some developmental league. The NBA doesn’t really care.
He could have signed to play with some developmental league. The NBA doesn’t really care.
If he has the ability to go in the top 20 picks he can make a lot of guaranteed money. If he doesn’t get drafted in the first round or at all, there’s no guarantee to money. He wasn’t guaranteed as a first round draft pick after last year, which is why he came back. He was nowhere near as good last year as he was this year….which helped boost his draft stock…although this case isn’t helping
This is a bad argument. You're free to keep making it, but it's not remotely compelling.
Look at the projected nba draft and how many of the projected first round picks did not play in American colleges this past year. Now just try to tell me he couldn’t have signed and played for some d or e or g or xyz league or euro league last year instead of playing for Illinois. Did he go to Illinois to get an education? Or did he just use their basketball team as a showcase for his basketball talents? Surely he could have easily found a different venue to showcase his skills and the NBA could care less where he played!
lol you living under a rock big ten NIL is more than those other areas and he certainly didn’t go to get his education. He had a great year and I disagree with what you said the mess he is in absolutely will be a factor in where he gets drafted. If it bumps him well into second round and he doesn’t get guaranteed than It could cost him millions.
I'm out on playing whack-a-wole with your ever-changing arguments and hypotheticals.
He came off the bench because he hadn't played in a game for 2 weeks. And no, the judge isn't going to "say anything" after a single game.
But as I said, it's all moot because Underwood was always going to play him as much as possible. And hopefully this nonsense case is dropped ASAP.
You don't understand that the American system of justice isn't based on what you think his options could have been?
He didn’t have to play at Illinois to be drafted into the NBA. However, he got a court order to continue playing there. It’s Not like he had any loyalty to Illinois. He just wanted a venue to showcase his talent.
As for the charges, I would take them seriously.
As for the charges, I would take them seriously.
??????
Where else could he have played? He was already mid season playing on the team when this happened…you do know that right?
He could have played for some development pro league like many other college players who get kicked out of college do! If he had flunked out after the first semester, he would have found some pro development team to offer him a contract. There have been many other students who were kicked out of colleges that signed with pro teams. Look at Eastern. He was going to play at Howard but never did. He found a pro team to play for while he still entertained thoughts of getting an invite to play for an nba team or summer league.
What student athlete got kicked out mid season and then was drafted the same year? Can you name any? Maybe 1 or 2 if that?And eastern did his whole thing AFTER the season not mid season.
Not sure why you don’t get that if he doesn’t gets drafted in the first 20 picks he starts to lose out on guaranteed millions for his first contract. Yeah he could go the developmental route but it more than likely would take longer to get a guaranteed contract, if ever.
Doesn’t anybody here follow the pro game? The developmental teams are signing players every week. if he wanted, he could have left Illinois and signed with any number of developmental league teams. they would have been glad to have added him midseason. no questions asked. and look at the NBa draft. there are as many developmental league players and other pro league players as there are college athletes drafted in the first round. a player doesn't have to play for Illinois or IU or Purdue to get drafted. he could have just quit school, signed a pro contract and still been a first round pick.
i can't believe you can't comprehend the concept of quitting college and turning pro mid season. every NBA team has a farm team. and each of those teams has tremendous player turnover and player tryouts.
I'm disagreeing with the court order. he didn't have to go back to Illinois to prove his worth to the NBA to get drafted. All he had to do was find a team that was willing to allow him to play and showcase his talents. there are a lot of players at the NBA combine that never went to college. Not going to college has zero impact on a player's chance to be drafted. Look at the #1 player in last year's NBA draft. what college did he go to? Look at this year's projected #1 player. Look at how many players that were drafted that played for g league teams.
my point is college is not required. all he was doing was using Illinois to showcase his talents. he could have used a minor league pro team to do the same thing. Illinois should not have been forced to accept him back because of the reason that it would impact his future earnings. . if he signed with a minor league pro team, his future earnings would be the same, and his draft stock if he was invited to the combine would be the same. he didn't need Illinois to improve his draft stock. They needed him.
there have been many. the center from Minnesota Joel Przybilla quit his team in midseason to prepare for the draft, and was picked in the first round by the Bucks. Plenty of football players were kicked off their teams mid season and were still drafted or entered the supplemental draft. there are countless others who left college, signed minor league contracts, and were subsequently drafted. Just look at last year's draft. Look at scoot Henderson. he could have gone to college. he decided to turn pro out of high school. he was the #3 player picked. Not going to college had zero impact on his draft stock. are you going to honestly say the team that scoot played for would not have signed Shannon if he was available ? look at Alabama's Brandon Miller. his off the court actions/ reputation didn't hurt his draft stock. if you do some research into the G league, you will find several of the first round picks signed with g league teams after September of the previous year. that would mean shannon could have also signed with a g league team after Illinois suspended him.
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LSU also comes to mind as a place where players were kicked off the team or flunked out. How about Purdue's football dback who decided to quit the team last year in midseason before the IU game ? I'd call that being kicked off the team. wouldn't you ? did he go to court to get reinstated because his draft stock might decrease if he didn't play in that game ? No. he just quit. and what about stephens and several others who quit playing for painter midseason ?
Basically, Painter handled the discipline and didn't need some court order to reinstate the player. my entire point is there have been many players who leave their teams midseason for discipline, academic, or other reasons. their schools dealt with the issues. they didn't need a court order to be reinstated. the players accepted their discipline and either quit, transferred or returned after their suspension.
the entire decision by the court that he needed to be reinstated because his potential future earnings may be affected was total bs.
Basically, Painter handled the discipline and didn't need some court order to reinstate the player. my entire point is there have been many players who leave their teams midseason for discipline, academic, or other reasons. their schools dealt with the issues. they didn't need a court order to be reinstated. the players accepted their discipline and either quit, transferred or returned after their suspension.
the entire decision by the court that he needed to be reinstated because his potential future earnings may be affected was total bs.
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