For the liberals and Democrats on here

[TwinDegrees2]

Honest and sincere question for you:

Would you like to see the US go down the toilet because of your hatred of anything Trump or anything conservative?

What will it take for you to ever support what he's doing, because if your honest he's done things that are very right for all of us.

 

[miksta]

Should be a constructive thread.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

Should be a constructive thread.

Valid question....

 

[cinboiler]

Valid question....

Yes it is. But the so called other side does not see anything positive about what he has done. This latest attack about the border crossings and immigration blows me away. They act like it is all his fault. They cannot stand anything he does. It is not just the liberals, John McCain, Bushes. Very sore losers. They have to start attacking something new cause the Mueller investigation is not yielding what they had hoped.

 

[chiefboiler23]

Honest and sincere question for you:

Would you like to see the US go down the toilet because of your hatred of anything Trump or anything conservative?

What will it take for you to ever support what he's doing, because if your honest he's done things that are very right for all of us.

Before I go in to my personal response, what would you consider "going down the toilet?"

For context, I am a liberal but don't identify solely with Democrats...I think absolute party affiliation is stupid and is a root cause of why Congress can't get anything done. I don't hate DT, I don't really hate anyone, but I do think he is unfit to service as POTUS and think he has done a poor job so far.

Things I think he as made positive strides in:
- The current track we are on with NK is a good one. No real outcomes have been accomplished other than talking, but talking in a joint, constructive manner is better than a silly twitter war.
- I give him credit for tackling tax reform. I personally don't like the reform as a whole, but in the short-term there are positive takeaways for corporations and average American's
- I support that idea that the US should not be in the business of bending over backwards for allies, being the world police, or sending money and resources all over the world for limited gains. A lot of that is a condition of "we have been doing it forever, so lets just keep it on cruise control. Tightening where are money goes to foreign entities is a good thing, and putting a microscope on our trade agreements is a good thing.

Things I think he is doing a poor job at:
- Being "Presidential" and being a leader; social media is a major influence in our society, so I have no problem with the President being on Twitter...but he is tweeting as Donald Trump, not as the POTUS. He needs to stop.
- The approach to immigration reform; this comes back to leadership, as we can all agree immigration reform is long overdue, but his current approach of blunt force isn't getting anyway and creating more hardship and headaches
- The approach to foreign policy and trade; see above
- The approach to Healthcare, or lack there of at this point after the failed attempts to repeal Obamacare

 

[BoilerJS]

I do think he is unfit to service as POTUS and think he has done a poor job so far.
The approach to foreign policy and trade; see above.
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Chief, you seem pretty open minded and I agree with most everything in your post, less the two items above and I would add, as a plus, the economic turnaround.
I would like your opinion on Obama as POTUS. You don't need to be real specific just an evaluation of him as you did for Trump.

From my perspective, I think Obama was well spoken and represented the country in a diplomatic manner.
I disagree on most everything else he did.
Foreign policy was really bad.
He divided the country by choosing the side of the minority, whether religion or race based, without exception. (just the opposite of Trump who is dividing the country just opposite)
The economy could have been booming in year 4 of his presidency, his restrictions and executive orders kept it down.
The ACA may end up bankrupting the Country. Healthcare needs reform and did so prior to the ACE. I have no clue how to solve the problem.
Your thoughts on Obama would be appreciated.

 

[chiefboiler23]

I do think he is unfit to service as POTUS and think he has done a poor job so far.
The approach to foreign policy and trade; see above.
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Chief, you seem pretty open minded and I agree with most everything in your post, less the two items above and I would add, as a plus, the economic turnaround.
I would like your opinion on Obama as POTUS. You don't need to be real specific just an evaluation of him as you did for Trump.

From my perspective, I think Obama was well spoken and represented the country in a diplomatic manner.
I disagree on most everything else he did.
Foreign policy was really bad.
He divided the country by choosing the side of the minority, whether religion or race based, without exception. (just the opposite of Trump who is dividing the country just opposite)
The economy could have been booming in year 4 of his presidency, his restrictions and executive orders kept it down.
The ACA may end up bankrupting the Country. Healthcare needs reform and did so prior to the ACE. I have no clue how to solve the problem.
Your thoughts on Obama would be appreciated.

Good question, happy to answer. I hope that my thoughts make sense, as it is tough to compare the past with the present/ongoing.

Admittedly, at the same point in the Obama presidency as we are in the Trump presidency I would have had a much different answer. I was part of hope and change crowd that saw an articulate and ambitious Obama as a better option than whatever the GOP was providing...and that was true in 2012 as well but to a lesser extent.

My hindsight is that Obama was a less than average President in totality. I think he did a good job advancing the healthcare conversation and moving it in the correct, progressive path...but am willing to admit 10 years later that it has largely failed in the area of curbing rising costs for average Americans. The ROI to date on Obamacare is terrible.

I believe that Obama had the correct disposition for a President and succeeded in creating strong relationships with our Allies and trying to bridge the gap with non-allies that we actually had an interest in. However, he largely failed in making any progress as it pertains to the Middle East, Russia, and NK.

While I am a straight white male who falls into arguably the most privileged bucket in our society, I appreciate Obama's fight for equality for both minority races and the LGBT community. I believe that had he held his tongue after the Trayvon Martin shooting we would have a different view as a whole, but that set him down a path of selective divisiveness that perceptually he hasn't recovered from.

I think the Dodd-Frank financial reform was a great step, but there was no real follow through on punishment that had a significant impact. I also think his initiatives around clean energy alternatives are part of the right path forward.

President's largely get too much credit or too much criticism, and it that regard I am not willing to praise Obama for the economic recovery, as that was going to happen with any president most likely. In the same breath, it is the reason why I am not willing to give Trump credit (yet) for the continued progress of the economy. Micro views of the economy are a waste of time.

 

[indy35]

Honest and sincere question for you:

Would you like to see the US go down the toilet because of your hatred of anything Trump or anything conservative?

What will it take for you to ever support what he's doing, because if your honest he's done things that are very right for all of us.

What’s been so great about the economy since Obama left office? Look at where it was when he left and where it’s at now. Things are better but only incrementally and have just been continuing the trend from years ago. Nothing Trump’s done has “sped up” the economy. The few things that he has done will have terrible long term effects.

 

[roadblock19]

What’s been so great about the economy since Obama left office? Look at where it was when he left and where it’s at now. Things are better but only incrementally and have just been continuing the trend from years ago. Nothing Trump’s done has “sped up” the economy. The few things that he has done will have terrible long term effects.

Damn, who is going to win the super bowl in 2022?

 

[gr8indoorsman]

No president is going to send the country down the toilet, nor will they make it awesome on their own. The system doesn’t work that way. I thought Obama missed the mark in terms of policy, and I think Trump is an embarrassment. Yet here we are, same as ever.

 

[Bruce1]

What’s been so great about the economy since Obama left office? Look at where it was when he left and where it’s at now. Things are better but only incrementally and have just been continuing the trend from years ago. Nothing Trump’s done has “sped up” the economy. The few things that he has done will have terrible long term effects.

I think the jury is still out on Trump’s performance. I think we did need to reset our trade relationships and our posture related to defense of our allies. That said I am concerned that Trum’s brash and insulting characteristics may doom his policies.

Pres Obama’s policies were needed in the first four years but his second term put the country into slow growth mode and his anti business image depressed consumer and business confidence. That is why when Trump was elected we saw an immediate positive surge in many areas. I am concerned that positive momentum is being lost because of his distractions.

 

[indy35]

I think the jury is still out on Trump’s performance. I think we did need to reset our trade relationships and our posture related to defense of our allies. That said I am concerned that Trum’s brash and insulting characteristics may doom his policies.

Pres Obama’s policies were needed in the first four years but his second term put the country into slow growth mode and his anti business image depressed consumer and business confidence. That is why when Trump was elected we saw an immediate positive surge in many areas. I am concerned that positive momentum is being lost because of his distractions.

Was Obama projecting an anti-business image or is that what certain elements in media wanted people to perceive? I think it's telling that we can look at the same month in Obama's last year and Trump first year, about 30,000 more jobs were created that month during Obama's time. The exact same media personalities reacted to Obama's job number that month with "proof that Obama is a drag on the economy, regulations are strangling businesses." When it came to Trump, 30,000 fewer jobs were created but those same media personalities reacted with "the economy is a rocket ship, Trump's released the reins on business."
I think it's important to separate perception from reality. Trump's first year was lower than the previous years going back to 2012 when they were very similar.
2011: 2.091 million
2012: 2.142 million
2013: 2.302 million
2014: 2.998 millon
2015: 2.713 million
2016: 2.240 million
2017 updated: 2.188 million

 

[SKYDOG]

Was Obama projecting an anti-business image or is that what certain elements in media wanted people to perceive? I think it's telling that we can look at the same month in Obama's last year and Trump first year, about 30,000 more jobs were created that month during Obama's time. The exact same media personalities reacted to Obama's job number that month with "proof that Obama is a drag on the economy, regulations are strangling businesses." When it came to Trump, 30,000 fewer jobs were created but those same media personalities reacted with "the economy is a rocket ship, Trump's released the reins on business."
I think it's important to separate perception from reality. Trump's first year was lower than the previous years going back to 2012 when they were very similar.
2011: 2.091 million
2012: 2.142 million
2013: 2.302 million
2014: 2.998 millon
2015: 2.713 million
2016: 2.240 million
2017 updated: 2.188 million

It's going to be most difficult to move the bar now as the country is at almost full employment.

 

[BoilerJS]

Good points and I agree on the economy. It was due for a big rally. Historically speaking no matter who the president. I think Obama did keep it down due to his executive orders on the environment in particular.
Thanks for the response,Chief.

 

[BoilerBiker]

It's going to be most difficult to move the bar now as the country is at almost full employment.

coupled with high or record numbers no longer seeking employment

 

[Bruce1]

Was Obama projecting an anti-business image or is that what certain elements in media wanted people to perceive? I think it's telling that we can look at the same month in Obama's last year and Trump first year, about 30,000 more jobs were created that month during Obama's time. The exact same media personalities reacted to Obama's job number that month with "proof that Obama is a drag on the economy, regulations are strangling businesses." When it came to Trump, 30,000 fewer jobs were created but those same media personalities reacted with "the economy is a rocket ship, Trump's released the reins on business."
I think it's important to separate perception from reality. Trump's first year was lower than the previous years going back to 2012 when they were very similar.
2011: 2.091 million
2012: 2.142 million
2013: 2.302 million
2014: 2.998 millon
2015: 2.713 million
2016: 2.240 million
2017 updated: 2.188 million

Unemployment was 9.8% in 2010. Jan 2017 was 4.8%

https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/01/31/americas-economic-freedom-has-rapidly-declined-under-obama/

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obamas-economic-growth-gap-now-tops-2-2-trillion/

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/15/grading-the-obama-economy-by-the-numbers.html

Obama had a great start because of the bailout but failed to instill confidence in business due to his big government views.

 

[indy35]

Trump claimed credit this week for creating 3.4-M new jobs in the 19 months since his election, a feat “nobody would have believed” in Nov 2016.

Since 4.1-M jobs were created under Obama in the 19 months before that, the claim makes no sense.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Trump claimed credit this week for creating 3.4-M new jobs in the 19 months since his election, a feat “nobody would have believed” in Nov 2016.

Since 4.1-M jobs were created under Obama in the 19 months before that, the claim makes no sense.

From where Obama started, the jobs market, with the sugar high from historically high quantitative easing (cheap $) flooding the markets, the economy had nowhere to go but up. Under Obama it hit nearly rock bottom first. And yes, I will admit that GWB was culpable for some of the early problems Obama faced. Yet Obama was still blaming Bush for the economy well into his second term.

 

[indy35]

From where Obama started, the jobs market, with the sugar high from historically high quantitative easing (cheap $) flooding the markets, the economy had nowhere to go but up. Under Obama it hit nearly rock bottom first. And yes, I will admit that GWB was culpable for some of the early problems Obama faced. Yet Obama was still blaming Bush for the economy well into his second term.

Glad you don't completely blame Obama for the housing market crash and global meltdown that occurred before he was even elected. It takes time to recover from an event like that, worst since the Great Depression. Certainly didn't help that Obama also had a Republican party that fought every step of the way to help the economy because then "Obama would get credit."

 

[SDBoiler1]

Glad you don't completely blame Obama for the housing market crash and global meltdown that occurred before he was even elected. It takes time to recover from an event like that, worst since the Great Depression. Certainly didn't help that Obama also had a Republican party that fought every step of the way to help the economy because then "Obama would get credit."

Obama’s policies, including excessive financial and environmental regulation, acted like a speedbrake on the economy during his 2 terms, leading to the worst economic growth rates (in a recovery) since the 1930s. That’s a fact.

 

[indy35]

Obama’s policies, including excessive financial and environmental regulation, acted like a speedbrake on the economy during his 2 terms, leading to the worst economic growth rates (in a recovery) since the 1930s. That’s a fact.

If they were such a speed brake why are his jobs numbers better than Trumps?

 

[lbodel]

Honest and sincere question for you:

Would you like to see the US go down the toilet because of your hatred of anything Trump or anything conservative?

What will it take for you to ever support what he's doing, because if your honest he's done things that are very right for all of us.

One step in the right direction would be to stop constantly lying about things. Then we can talk!

I guess I'm so anti-American because I don't believe the leader of the free world should be caught lying to the American people and the world every single day, most days multiple times.

 

[SDBoiler1]

If they were such a speed brake why are his jobs numbers better than Trumps?

Why is Trump showing GDP growth rates approaching double Obama’s? Obama’s economy had the lowest GDP growth rates in a recovery since the Great Depression.

 

[miksta]

Why is Trump showing GDP growth rates approaching double Obama’s? Obama’s economy had the lowest GDP growth rates in a recovery since the Great Depression.

Wait and see how well this idiotic trade war works out for ya.

Can't ride the coattails of Obama's economy forever.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Wait and see how well this idiotic trade war works out for ya.

Can't ride the coattails of Obama's economy forever.

Willful ignorance. Yes, it’s all Obama’s doing. Obama had trouble getting GDP above 2%. Trump is pushing 4%.

 

[miksta]

Willful ignorance. Yes, it’s all Obama’s doing. Obama had trouble getting GDP above 2%. Trump is pushing 4%.

Please demonstrate the direct causal effect of what Trump has done, controlling for existing momentum. Thx.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Please demonstrate the direct causal effect of what Trump has done, controlling for existing momentum. Thx.

Sorry you have so much trouble with the facts regarding GDP. These are some of the things that Trump has done with his policies:

Tax cuts for businesses and consumers. Increased Investment in new plants, capital, and equipment due to tax law changes. Substantial reductions in burdensome regulations.

These things have helped drive:
More jobs available than job seekers. Unemployment at 40+ year lows for blacks, Hispanics, and women. Unemployment at overall low since late 1960s. Substantial consumer confidence increases. First wage growth in over 20 years.

 

[pastorjoeboggs]

Valid question....

Depends on your definition of valid. If by valid you mean a "gotcha" question that will allow you to fire back at anyone who criticizes the President, then sure, it's a valid question.

Fully knowing that this is a bad idea and won't come to any good, I'll answer.

Trump hasn't been nearly as terrible as I expected. That's not saying much, though, because "not destroying the nation completely" is a really low bar.

I think Trump has done some good things, but every last one of them has been overshadowed by his attitude and the awful things he says and does.

It is laughable that people still call Obama the most divisive president ever, as Trump has that category sewed up. At least Obama made efforts to reach across the aisle, to do things other than insult people who disagreed with him. He wasn't great, but he tried. It is the height of political hypocrisy that so many of the people who got so upset at Obama for being "divisive" and talked about how bad that divisiveness for the country now have nothing to say because the one doing the dividing is on "their side."

My general opinion of Trump hasn't changed one bit since the election - he's a narcissistic megalomaniac and an awful person.

You ask what it would take for me to support Trump. I'm not sure that's possible, because the reasons I don't support him are less policy than personality based. To earn my vote, Trump would have to totally change his personality and the tone of the conversation he leads. He would have to acknowledge that he is not perfect, admit that he has made mistakes, and be willing to allow people who are smarter than him to actually do their work without interference. Further, there would have to be a lot less time spent at Trump properties and a whole lot more financial transparency. We all know that's not going to happen, though. So I won't be voting for him, because some things are more important to me than policy.

 

[lbodel]

Depends on your definition of valid. If by valid you mean a "gotcha" question that will allow you to fire back at anyone who criticizes the President, then sure, it's a valid question.

Fully knowing that this is a bad idea and won't come to any good, I'll answer.

Trump hasn't been nearly as terrible as I expected. That's not saying much, though, because "not destroying the nation completely" is a really low bar.

I think Trump has done some good things, but every last one of them has been overshadowed by his attitude and the awful things he says and does.

It is laughable that people still call Obama the most divisive president ever, as Trump has that category sewed up. At least Obama made efforts to reach across the aisle, to do things other than insult people who disagreed with him. He wasn't great, but he tried. It is the height of political hypocrisy that so many of the people who got so upset at Obama for being "divisive" and talked about how bad that divisiveness for the country now have nothing to say because the one doing the dividing is on "their side."

My general opinion of Trump hasn't changed one bit since the election - he's a narcissistic megalomaniac and an awful person.

You ask what it would take for me to support Trump. I'm not sure that's possible, because the reasons I don't support him are less policy than personality based. To earn my vote, Trump would have to totally change his personality and the tone of the conversation he leads. He would have to acknowledge that he is not perfect, admit that he has made mistakes, and be willing to allow people who are smarter than him to actually do their work without interference. Further, there would have to be a lot less time spent at Trump properties and a whole lot more financial transparency. We all know that's not going to happen, though. So I won't be voting for him, because some things are more important to me than policy.

In addition, Trump was supposed to be the "anti" politician. Yet almost everything he says and does is politically motivated. He's been doing campaign rallies since he was elected where he just bashes people. This latest "policy" was heavily politically motivated - and he tried to pin it on Democrats. How is that "refreshing" to have someone who does almost everything to settle scores and play politics? Him and Melania act like teenagers in public - it's now coming out that Melania wore that stupid coat to settle a score with him. They act like children.

P.S. Maybe for some of you Trumpers, you'll get the celebratory coins they are spending thousands of dollars on for doing such a great jump reacting to the hurricanes last year! I'm sure our citizens in Puerto Rico would have something to say about that. This administration is one big contradiction - it's taking the "swamp" and multiplying it.

 

[Bruce1]

What’s been so great about the economy since Obama left office? Look at where it was when he left and where it’s at now. Things are better but only incrementally and have just been continuing the trend from years ago. Nothing Trump’s done has “sped up” the economy. The few things that he has done will have terrible long term effects.

The prior responses were at least balanced. Are we to assume you see nothing good in Trumo’s time as POTUS?

 

[atmafola]

If they were such a speed brake why are his jobs numbers better than Trumps?

don't debate SDboiler. He is a partisan idiot. On this thread alone, there are people from the other side with points worth debating.

 

[SDBoiler1]

don't debate SDboiler. He is a partisan idiot. On this thread alone, there are people from the other side with points worth debating.

Coming from you, that's rich.

 

[atmafola]

Coming from you, that's rich.

says the person who sees nothing wrong in naming Obama racially-divisive because he dared to humanize the needless death of a teeanager just walking home from a store.

 

[SDBoiler1]

says the person who sees nothing wrong in naming Obama racially-divisive because he dared to humanize the needless death of a teeanager just walking home from a store.

Says the poster who couches most posts in racial terms. What I’ve learned is that people who feel the need to do this are often as racist, if not more so, than the people they accuse of being racist.

 

[atmafola]

Says the poster who couches most posts in racial terms. What I’ve learned is that people who feel the need to do this are often as racist, if not more so, than the people they accuse of being racist.

hahaha luckily i haven't called you racist yet on this thread. but thanks for promptly identifying yourself as one. so let me ask what exactly is racially divisive about Obama humanizing the needless of teen who happened to be just walking home from a store.

 

[SDBoiler1]

hahaha luckily i haven't called you racist yet on this thread. but thanks for promptly identifying yourself as one. so let me ask what exactly is racially divisive about Obama humanizing the needless of teen who happened to be just walking home from a store.

How about fingering a guy as guilty and sicing the media on him before he even had a trial, before actual information about “if I only had a son” came out (low level drug dealer who had previous brushes with the law), and then saying almost nothing after the shooter was acquitted? And come to find out that “if I only had a son” tried to smash the shooter’s head into the sidewalk/street, so the shooter shot him in self-defense.

Humanizing? He may have been a human, but that doesn’t mean he was a good person.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

How about fingering a guy as guilty and sicing the media on him before he even had a trial, before actual information about “if I only had a son” came out (low level drug dealer who had previous brushes with the law), and then saying almost nothing after the shooter was acquitted? And come to find out that “if I only had a son” tried to smash the shooter’s head into the sidewalk/street, so the shooter shot him in self-defense.

Humanizing? He may have been a human, but that doesn’t mean he was a good person.

Now, now....you're going to melt more snowflakes.

 

[atmafola]

How about fingering a guy as guilty and sicing the media on him before he even had a trial, before actual information about “if I only had a son” came out (low level drug dealer who had previous brushes with the law), and then saying almost nothing after the shooter was acquitted? And come to find out that “if I only had a son” tried to smash the shooter’s head into the sidewalk/street, so the shooter shot him in self-defense.

Humanizing? He may have been a human, but that doesn’t mean he was a good person.

so what part about if I had a son, fingers anyone.
low level drug dealer for real. Yet the only person with prior arrest record was the self-appointed wannabee cop with anger issues. Maybe if the man had just let a walking kid walk, he won't find his head getting smashed on the side of the road.

 

[SDBoiler1]

so what part about if I had a son, fingers anyone.
low level drug dealer for real. Yet the only person with prior arrest record was the self-appointed wannabee cop with anger issues. Maybe if the man had just let a walking kid walk, he won't find his head getting smashed on the side of the road.

No one said George Zimmerman was a saint, but he does seem like a somewhat more sympathetic figure than “if I only had a son”.

 

[pastorjoeboggs]

How about fingering a guy as guilty and sicing the media on him before he even had a trial, before actual information about “if I only had a son” came out (low level drug dealer who had previous brushes with the law), and then saying almost nothing after the shooter was acquitted? And come to find out that “if I only had a son” tried to smash the shooter’s head into the sidewalk/street, so the shooter shot him in self-defense.

Humanizing? He may have been a human, but that doesn’t mean he was a good person.

Zimmerman may have been acquitted, but that doesn't mean he is a good person. He was acquitted because of a ridiculous law, which shouldn't have come into play because Zimmerman himself was the instigator of the entire situation.

And, incidentally, your opinion is that Obama (or any other black leader) can only show personal support and feeling for perfect people? He shouldn't have said Trayvon Martin could have been his son because Trayvon Martin had some minor brushes with the law?

That's a fascinating position from a guy who supports Trump the pathological liar and all around terrible person.