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Braden is now a Bob Cousy finalist

I think Newton wins it, but it's great to see Braden get recognized after not getting it before.
The little I've seen he is good. The little I've seen he appeared to be more of a scorer than distributor, but I don't know that is true. Just like Sears was definitely a scorer against Purdue more than a distributor. I suspect there isn't some minimum metric that all must attain, because different teams will have their player that are listed at a spot like PG maybe be more of a combo that scores and such that running the show. I haven't seen Shead, but the others I don't think "control" the game (not only score) as much as Braden with Kolek being close. Braden has the ball soooooooo much in his hands. He gives it up frequently, but gets it back seconds later. Would be hard to rate the players since each team may have a different need for each player which can dictate the numbers some...
 
The little I've seen he is good. The little I've seen he appeared to be more of a scorer than distributor, but I don't know that is true. Just like Sears was definitely a scorer against Purdue more than a distributor. I suspect there isn't some minimum metric that all must attain, because different teams will have their player that are listed at a spot like PG maybe be more of a combo that scores and such that running the show. I haven't seen Shead, but the others I don't think "control" the game (not only score) as much as Braden with Kolek being close. Braden has the ball soooooooo much in his hands. He gives it up frequently, but gets it back seconds later. Would be hard to rate the players since each team may have a different need for each player which can dictate the numbers some...
I've seen them all quite a bit. They're all technically points, but Shead and Sears define the word "combo" more than Newton, Smith and Kolek. Kolek is probably out of the running now that he is going to miss the final 3 games of the regular season with an injury. Shead and Smith definitely deserve is, but I think Newton is a cut above simply from watching them all. I'm not even looking at stats.
 
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I've seen them all quite a bit. They're all technically points, but Shead and Sears define the word "combo" more than Newton, Smith and Kolek. Kolek is probably out of the running now that he is going to miss the final 3 games of the regular season with an injury. Shead and Smith definitely deserve is, but I think Newton is a cut above simply from watching them all. I'm not even looking at stats.
I think Shead wins it. He's not the offensive player Kolek and Newton are but he's the best defensive guard in the country. Dude is so good on that end. And he's hit a bunch of clutch shots for Houston this year.
 
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Like I said, just win and the individual awards will follow. Notice the 5 finalists and the teams they are on?
 
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Braden has the ball soooooooo much in his hands. He gives it up frequently, but gets it back seconds later.
It's the classic military "probing the defense for weaknesses" and then striking when found. Excellent floor General.
 
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The little I've seen he is good. The little I've seen he appeared to be more of a scorer than distributor, but I don't know that is true. Just like Sears was definitely a scorer against Purdue more than a distributor. I suspect there isn't some minimum metric that all must attain, because different teams will have their player that are listed at a spot like PG maybe be more of a combo that scores and such that running the show. I haven't seen Shead, but the others I don't think "control" the game (not only score) as much as Braden with Kolek being close. Braden has the ball soooooooo much in his hands. He gives it up frequently, but gets it back seconds later. Would be hard to rate the players since each team may have a different need for each player which can dictate the numbers some...
Newton averages one less assist than Braden, so very little difference there. He gets 1 more rebound and 2 points per game more than Braden.

Both are VERY good point guards. I think Newton gets it, but I wouldn't trade!
 
Just like the so called experts did in rating Edey, they did just as good with Smith.

Shows how good of talent evaluator Painter is.
 
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It should be noted that the other players Painter recruited ahead of smith and Edey have been pretty good as well. Dickinson turned out pretty good. Would Dickinson be as good as Edey if he came to Purdue with painter as his coach? I think the answer is maybe.

Painter was one of the first coaches to offer Holgrem. And that high schooler going to Kansas is pretty good,

The basic truth is painter is a very good evaluator of talent. They just didn’t want to come to Purdue. I blame the boring red bricks.
 
My apologies to BoilerDeac in advance for discussing an award when clearly we should only be expressing our desire for NCAA tournament wins.

After not being a top 10 finalist, it looks like Braden is in the top 5.

No need to apologize! Again, I never said we shouldn't be discussing an award. Awards are great! I simply offered a different perspective on Zach's tweet and how it came across. Dang, things can really get taken out of context on here without proper reading comprehension, huh?

Glad to see Braden getting some much-deserved recognition!

I wonder if Zach will send off a tweet thanking the voters and/or letting the voters know they have Zach's permission to keep him on their lists?!
 
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It's the classic military "probing the defense for weaknesses" and then striking when found. Excellent floor General.
Just wish Purdue could send out some scouts behind enemy lines and bring back the notes...
 
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No need to apologize! Again, I never said we shouldn't be discussing an award. Awards are great! I simply offered a different perspective on Zach's tweet and how it came across. Dang, things can really get taken out of context on here without proper reading comprehension, huh?

Glad to see Braden getting some much-deserved recognition!

I wonder if Zach will send off a tweet thanking the voters and/or letting the voters know they have Zach's permission to keep him on their lists?!
There are some posters on this board who will argue with no matter what you say or point of view you take. They see your name and they spend 5 hours looking for some minor fault they can disagree with.
 
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Interesting and shows how important the PG position in basketball is that 3 of the 5 finalists are from the top 3 teams in college basketball: Purdue, Houston, and Connecticut.
And the others are 8 and 16. It’s probably more like it shows how important a good team can be to a great PG making a list. Some of the guys who dropped off seemed to be better PGs IMO.
 
Or Iowa State basketball.
I hope that if Purdue tries a bit of a junk defense (somewhat a combination D) with Illinois as they did for a couple of possessions against Northwestern that Matt has an easy to see signal...maybe one of the assist that doesn't stand up... stands up when in play
 
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I threw that pitch high and slow ;)

"Perplexing......."

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It should be noted that the other players Painter recruited ahead of smith and Edey have been pretty good as well. Dickinson turned out pretty good. Would Dickinson be as good as Edey if he came to Purdue with painter as his coach? I think the answer is maybe.

Painter was one of the first coaches to offer Holgrem. And that high schooler going to Kansas is pretty good,

The basic truth is painter is a very good evaluator of talent. They just didn’t want to come to Purdue. I blame the boring red bricks.

In there heyday, the red bricks didn't stop UCLA from out recruiting everyone.
 
I hope that if Purdue tries a bit of a junk defense (somewhat a combination D) with Illinois as they did for a couple of possessions against Northwestern that Matt has an easy to see signal...maybe one of the assist that doesn't stand up... stands up when in play
What is this JUNK you speak of?? Just messing with you TJ, I think it's possible we try some zo.., I mean junk tonight. I personally don't think we match up well on defense at all. Anything we can do to steal a couple possessions could be key. Efficient on offense and contain on defense. Throw the kitchen sink at them if our base defense isn't working. Good practice if nothing else.
 
What is this JUNK you speak of?? Just messing with you TJ, I think it's possible we try some zo.., I mean junk tonight. I personally don't think we match up well on defense at all. Anything we can do to steal a couple possessions could be key. Efficient on offense and contain on defense. Throw the kitchen sink at them if our base defense isn't working. Good practice if nothing else.

Thought that was reserved for Ross-Ade! :)

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Wouldn't mind Purdue throwing some wrinkles at the Illini if disguised at first.....we shall see.
 
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What is this JUNK you speak of?? Just messing with you TJ, I think it's possible we try some zo.., I mean junk tonight. I personally don't think we match up well on defense at all. Anything we can do to steal a couple possessions could be key. Efficient on offense and contain on defense. Throw the kitchen sink at them if our base defense isn't working. Good practice if nothing else.
Junk is a common term for combination defense. It is an old term and probably would better described as a combination defense. The most common "combination" defense are a box &1, diamond &1, Triangle and 2. The combination D combines man with zone. In the three examples above 1-2 players played man and the others were in a zone. Digger Phelps played a lot of combination defense years ago. Micah played it against Purdue for a few possessions in the BTT with the 1 man defender on Sasha. Typically the man defenders are on guards on the perimeter with little fear of the others scoring since the zone part is "shrunk" in size by having one or two playing man. There was no 3 pt shot when Digger coached and a defense like this has its place depending on the team you are defending. Today we may mostly see that as a ploy for a last second possession for a team that has shown zone and now wants coverage on a certain player. As an oddity I have seen Flory defended by a box and 1 where the one just tried to deny him a pass as he moved towards the ball and try to keep a body on him for the boards. However, it is usually perimeter shooters that the man defender is covering

If a team showed what appeared to be a zone, we would send the player that saw a lot of box and ones through the zone to see if a player followed. If not then it was more of a pure zone and most those teams just shifted the zone towards where he was.

Defending Illinois is a tough task and it may end up that Purdue just outscores their defense? Of course dominating the boards, low turnovers and shooting well are always desired as well as not getting in foul trouble.

I don't think you will see a zone tonight. I do think there "could be" a bit more observable difference in man. Probably 95% of all coaches that play man incorporate zone principles into that defense and Matt is no exception. Somehow Matt needs to contest the 3 ball better than a zone and yet make it more difficult for teams to drive than man may provide. I think Matt tries to accomplish that by adjusting single pass away players with a bit more lean to help...just as far as the player can get off and still get a reasonable defensive position if that pass is made. The nuance between man help and more zone principles could be the location of defenders away from the ball.

The normal defense for almost all Man D play is that you defend one pass away and retreat towards the lane enough that you can get to skip pass if needed. The guy with the ball has an imaginary line from the ball to a player being defended has the player defending one pass away a step towards the ball and a step back where he can quickly defend the player should he not deflect a pass. This is all tweaked if just trying to maintain good position or trying to steal the pass. In both cases the hand closest to the ball must be able to get in that passing lane as needed. Purdue could just adjust the D away from the ball with more sag than usual or Purdue could not adjust from that imaginary line so much but actually lean to the area of the court (more zone lean) they want to defend and still with the intention of having coverage on the catch. Any of this makes Purdue a bit more vulnerable behind the arc, but maybe a bit better in the lane? I've stated such in other posts in other posts without as much description. Be interesting to see if Purdue strongly forces baseline to try to keep Domask and Shannon out of the middle of the court or lane...
 
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Junk is a common term for combination defense. It is an old term and probably would better described as a combination defense. The most common "combination" defense are a box &1, diamond &1, Triangle and 2. The combination D combines man with zone. In the three examples above 1-2 players played man and the others were in a zone. Digger Phelps played a lot of combination defense years ago. Micah played it against Purdue for a few possessions in the BTT with the 1 man defender on Sasha. Typically the man defenders are on guards on the perimeter with little fear of the others scoring since the zone part is "shrunk" in size by having one or two playing man. There was no 3 pt shot when Digger coached and a defense like this has its place depending on the team you are defending. Today we may mostly see that as a ploy for a last second possession for a team that has shown zone and now wants coverage on a certain player. As an oddity I have seen Flory defended by a box and 1 where the one just tried to deny him a pass as he moved towards the ball and try to keep a body on him for the boards. However, it is usually perimeter shooters that the man defender is covering

If a team showed what appeared to be a zone, we would send the player that saw a lot of box and ones through the zone to see if a player followed. If not then it was more of a pure zone and most those teams just shifted the zone towards where he was.

Defending Illinois is a tough task and it may end up that Purdue just outscores their defense? Of course dominating the boards, low turnovers and shooting well are always desired as well as not getting in foul trouble.

I don't think you will see a zone tonight. I do think there "could be" a bit more observable difference in man. Probably 95% of all coaches that play man incorporate zone principles into that defense and Matt is no exception. Somehow Matt needs to contest the 3 ball better than a zone and yet make it more difficult for teams to drive than man may provide. I think Matt tries to accomplish that by adjusting single pass away players with a bit more lean to help...just as far as the player can get off and still get a reasonable defensive position if that pass is made. The nuance between man help and more zone principles could be the location of defenders away from the ball.

The normal defense for almost all Man D play is that you defend one pass away and retreat towards the lane enough that you can get to skip pass if needed. The guy with the ball has an imaginary line from the ball to a player being defended has the player defending one pass away a step towards the ball and a step back where he can quickly defend the player should he not deflect a pass. This is all tweaked if just trying to maintain good position or trying to steal the pass. In both cases the hand closest to the ball must be able to get in that passing lane as needed. Purdue could just adjust the D away from the ball with more sag than usual or Purdue could not adjust from that imaginary line so much but actually lean to the area of the court (more zone lean) they want to defend and still with the intention of having coverage on the catch. Any of this makes Purdue a bit more vulnerable behind the arc, but maybe a bit better in the lane? I've stated such in other posts in other posts without as much description. Be interesting to see if Purdue strongly forces baseline to try to keep Domask and Shannon out of the middle of the court or lane...
I think you're taking it a little too seriously. Maybe you missed where I said " just messing with you TJ".

I'm well aware of what a junk/zone defense is. I watch a lot of hoops outside the B1G, call it whatever you like, as long as we can slow them down, I'm a happy guy.
 
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I think you're taking it a little too seriously. Maybe you missed where I said " just messing with you TJ".

I'm well aware of what a junk/zone defense is. I watch a lot of hoops outside the B1G, call it whatever you like, as long as we can slow them down, I'm a happy guy.
I took your messing with me just in advocating a zone since a pure zone in college I'm typically not a fan...although I can sway to a match-up along those lines. I think Purdue gives a different look, but it may only be a few feet different than normally played away from the ball. Then again, Matt may just want his team to be quicker with very similar rules. I'm guessing, but do think Matt wants coverage on the 3 ball on certain players and Matt wants the court cut in half trying to keep the drives along the baseline and not into the lane where Zach can more easily defend and the help D already has the court cut down. Easier said than done against teh athletes
 
I took your messing with me just in advocating a zone since a pure zone in college I'm typically not a fan...although I can sway to a match-up along those lines. I think Purdue gives a different look, but it may only be a few feet different than normally played away from the ball. Then again, Matt may just want his team to be quicker with very similar rules. I'm guessing, but do think Matt wants coverage on the 3 ball on certain players and Matt wants the court cut in half trying to keep the drives along the baseline and not into the lane where Zach can more easily defend and the help D already has the court cut down. Easier said than done against teh athletes
Whatever we do, it won't be called a zone by CMP or his staff. That interview a few weeks ago with the assistant coaches made that very clear. So they/you/me can call it whatever and I'm happy as long as our defense is effective. So "junk" is fine with me, and that's what I was messing with you about. All is good, let's Boiler Up tonight and pull an upset! Haven't had a chance to say that since December!
 
Whatever we do, it won't be called a zone by CMP or his staff. That interview a few weeks ago with the assistant coaches made that very clear. So they/you/me can call it whatever and I'm happy as long as our defense is effective. So "junk" is fine with me, and that's what I was messing with you about. All is good, let's Boiler Up tonight and pull an upset! Haven't had a chance to say that since December!
I understand, but the lines of demarcation between a definition of a junk or combination defense and the man defense tweaked as I stated may be 3 to 4 feet different. I just think he will lean to a bit more sag and if that sag position wise is not relative to the imaginary line Matt has added more zone (area) to his man than typical, but he has always had zone principles in his man. The whole shell defense that Vince Edwards told me they practiced every day is in theory more of a zone lean than just defending your man for the four players not contesting the ball. That shell D I think gets tweaked a bit. I too want Purdue to win with an effective D, whatever that is. I will just be as surprised as you if it is a zone as known today
 
I understand, but the lines of demarcation between a definition of a junk or combination defense and the man defense tweaked as I stated may be 3 to 4 feet different. I just think he will lean to a bit more sag and if that sag position wise is not relative to the imaginary line Matt has added more zone (area) to his man than typical, but he has always had zone principles in his man. The whole shell defense that Vince Edwards told me they practiced every day is in theory more of a zone lean than just defending your man for the four players not contesting the ball. That shell D I think gets tweaked a bit. I too want Purdue to win with an effective D, whatever that is. I will just be as surprised as you if it is a zone as known today
Man defense tweaked. That is what we will call any changes that are made. That should satisfy all of the zone phobia we have on this board (and in the coaches office). I know you read the same article I did with the assistant coaches comments. So you know what I'm talking about.
 
Man defense tweaked. That is what we will call any changes that are made. That should satisfy all of the zone phobia we have on this board (and in the coaches office). I know you read the same article I did with the assistant coaches comments. So you know what I'm talking about.
What they talked about had different formations or different players in different areas of the court for the same signal. It is available to see on a recording. I doubt any coach goes into the exact tweaks that take place on an interview for fans, but you can see the different formations for the same signal in the video. One could make an argument it was a combination. You describe a zone and I'll show man morphed to look the same. In every man defense lies a zone and in every...well almost all we see of zones lie a man defense. Pure Zone is defending an area which may or may not have a man in the area. Man defends a man, but maybe not "hugging" the man he is defending away from the ball. That area where you are defending a man but not on him is what? Both share similar desires.

In every non trapping zone there will be an attempt to defend the ball with man principles. In every man defense there will be zone away from the ball. Almost all the defense you see are a hybrid of a pure zone and a pure man. When AJ or Zach lays in the lane not defending anyone he is in a zone inside the man defense that Purdue plays. They really can be tweaked so close that someone can call one something and the other call it different.

The whole match up zone starts out in a zone and then matches to players in their areas. Those players hand off the player they were defending as they leave their zone area and pick up a man in their area or close to their area. The whole purpose of the matchup was to place people defending their men in areas of the court they would be better in defending rather than defending their men in areas maybe they were not as good defending. Defending men...defending areas all in the same defense. Some tried to do this switching horizontal, but not vertical screening to keep players defending similar players to who was switched. Or add switching 1 through 4 or 5...are those players defending a man in their areas...how different is that than a match up zone? The old zone or old man you don't see anymore. Everyone or everyone I see in college play a hybrid, but I don't watch as many different teams in other conferences as you do.

So I wonder if Purdue players not on the ball move a step away farther (defending an area?) from how they would normally play one pass away...or even two passes away. If that happens and the sag is not directly towards the basket on the imaginary line, but more on an angle then I say they applied more zone to their man. If the sag is directly to the basket from the imaginary line I say they applied more adjustment to their man...but another could say they are now defending an area and so it is a zone? A lot of nuancing in verbiage to describe trying to protect an area away from the ball. After a pass, different zones look the same because they are trying to protect and area with the shift of a ball and/or player.

Even today when forum members say so and so didn't guard Ethan...was that team in a man with one player in a zone or was that player just sagging off while in man. When Jaden drove into a bunch, was the other team that clogged the lane in a zone or man? These teams always use a bit of both zone and man in their D, but what is their lean. Anyway, I may be nuancing it a bit for some, but I do see a difference...even if the difference seems small. That said I do think there will be a wrinkle in the D tonight..."if" Purdue is struggling
 
What they talked about had different formations or different players in different areas of the court for the same signal. It is available to see on a recording. I doubt any coach goes into the exact tweaks that take place on an interview for fans, but you can see the different formations for the same signal in the video. One could make an argument it was a combination. You describe a zone and I'll show man morphed to look the same. In every man defense lies a zone and in every...well almost all we see of zones lie a man defense. Pure Zone is defending an area which may or may not have a man in the area. Man defends a man, but maybe not "hugging" the man he is defending away from the ball. That area where you are defending a man but not on him is what? Both share similar desires.

In every non trapping zone there will be an attempt to defend the ball with man principles. In every man defense there will be zone away from the ball. Almost all the defense you see are a hybrid of a pure zone and a pure man. When AJ or Zach lays in the lane not defending anyone he is in a zone inside the man defense that Purdue plays. They really can be tweaked so close that someone can call one something and the other call it different.

The whole match up zone starts out in a zone and then matches to players in their areas. Those players hand off the player they were defending as they leave their zone area and pick up a man in their area or close to their area. The whole purpose of the matchup was to place people defending their men in areas of the court they would be better in defending rather than defending their men in areas maybe they were not as good defending. Defending men...defending areas all in the same defense. Some tried to do this switching horizontal, but not vertical screening to keep players defending similar players to who was switched. Or add switching 1 through 4 or 5...are those players defending a man in their areas...how different is that than a match up zone? The old zone or old man you don't see anymore. Everyone or everyone I see in college play a hybrid, but I don't watch as many different teams in other conferences as you do.

So I wonder if Purdue players not on the ball move a step away farther (defending an area?) from how they would normally play one pass away...or even two passes away. If that happens and the sag is not directly towards the basket on the imaginary line, but more on an angle then I say they applied more zone to their man. If the sag is directly to the basket from the imaginary line I say they applied more adjustment to their man...but another could say they are now defending an area and so it is a zone? A lot of nuancing in verbiage to describe trying to protect an area away from the ball. After a pass, different zones look the same because they are trying to protect and area with the shift of a ball and/or player.

Even today when forum members say so and so didn't guard Ethan...was that team in a man with one player in a zone or was that player just sagging off while in man. When Jaden drove into a bunch, was the other team that clogged the lane in a zone or man? These teams always use a bit of both zone and man in their D, but what is their lean. Anyway, I may be nuancing it a bit for some, but I do see a difference...even if the difference seems small. That said I do think there will be a wrinkle in the D tonight..."if" Purdue is struggling
The part of the article I'm referencing and you are not, is the part where the assistant makes it clear that the word zone will not be used in the coaches office. He is even making light of it. So yeah, I get it, they will tweak and try some different stuff and I hope we see more of it. But it won't be called a zone no matter what anyone else calls it. That was my point of the light-hearted jab. But it obviously missed the mark. I'll let this die here. You can have the last word.

From the article:

Using the word zone in the office is likely frowned upon since Painter has been reluctant to use it.

“He’s had a lot of success doing it the way that he’s done it. It’s been very successful. I wouldn’t say reluctant, but I might use some harder terms than reluctant,” Lusk said, smiling. “
 
The part of the article I'm referencing and you are not, is the part where the assistant makes it clear that the word zone will not be used in the coaches office. He is even making light of it. So yeah, I get it, they will tweak and try some different stuff and I hope we see more of it. But it won't be called a zone no matter what anyone else calls it. That was my point of the light-hearted jab. But it obviously missed the mark. I'll let this die here. You can have the last word.

From the article:

Using the word zone in the office is likely frowned upon since Painter has been reluctant to use it.

“He’s had a lot of success doing it the way that he’s done it. It’s been very successful. I wouldn’t say reluctant, but I might use some harder terms than reluctant,” Lusk said, smiling. “
Actually, I heard what he said when Paul said it.
 
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