Work ethic...

[reswat]

Here's a quote from New Pal Boiler from the Aaron Wheeler thread:

That lack of work ethic is a good chunk of the reason they were never highly ranked- goes hand in hand.

That's a thought I've had and I wanted to discuss it on a new thread by comparing two distinct features of a prospect:
1) Height
2) Work Ethic

In regards to height, nobody would ever say, "Well, once he gets on campus, we're going to work on his height exercises and add another 4 or 5 inches to his height" We know that 99% of young men are done growing by the time they are freshmen in college.

Conversely, I sometimes tend to think (and I suspect others do as well) that a guy that has had a marginal work ethic up to this point might suddenly get his butt in gear and start working really hard. I believe that happens far less than we imagine. 'Work ethic' is a feature of each prospect, just like height. Now, work ethic can change, but it normally doesn't change.

If 99% of players are done growing when they get to college, I would say that 90% of players will not significantly improve their work ethic when they get to college.

To say it another way, I would say that only 10% of college basketball players actually make a significant change in their work ethic once they get to college.

What do you think? What percentage of college basketball players actually have a significant increase in work ethic after they get to college?

 

[tjreese]

Here's a quote from New Pal Boiler from the Aaron Wheeler thread:

That lack of work ethic is a good chunk of the reason they were never highly ranked- goes hand in hand.

That's a thought I've had and I wanted to discuss it on a new thread by comparing two distinct features of a prospect:
1) Height
2) Work Ethic

In regards to height, nobody would ever say, "Well, once he gets on campus, we're going to work on his height exercises and add another 4 or 5 inches to his height" We know that 99% of young men are done growing by the time they are freshmen in college.

Conversely, I sometimes tend to think (and I suspect others do as well) that a guy that has had a marginal work ethic up to this point might suddenly get his butt in gear and start working really hard. I believe that happens far less than we imagine. 'Work ethic' is a feature of each prospect, just like height. Now, work ethic can change, but it normally doesn't change.

If 99% of players are done growing when they get to college, I would say that 90% of players will not significantly improve their work ethic when they get to college.

To say it another way, I would say that only 10% of college basketball players actually make a significant change in their work ethic once they get to college.

What do you think? What percentage of college basketball players actually have a significant increase in work ethic after they get to college?

I think the work ethic will change when a player is in college more times than not. However, that will mostly come about as a result of the expectations and demands by the college coach on that player. The player's personal, unseen work ethic may change little if no physical things or successes change. I think I'm somewhat agreeing in principle with your post

 

[77 grad]

I might substitute "Physical Gifts" ("Height" among them, but I'm guessing 6'9" Biggie's physical gifts exceed those of 7'2" Harms) for "Height" here.

Either way, it's an interesting topic The cliché “No one size (pun intended) fits all” fits. Some kids come here with a fuse that has not been lit yet, or only part-lit. Others don't have much of a fuse, if any. I've seen young people, having arrived with a full-ride scholarship and facing stepped-up competition -- from teammates for playing time, much less opponents -- may give less effort.

Remember NBA No. 1 draft choice Joe Barry Carroll, who became known in the league as "Joe Barely Cares"? Lee Rose, or at least Brian Walker, seemed to light at least a small fuse inside the big man.

I'd have loved to transplant the ferocity of Chris Kramer or Brian Cardinal in AJ; what a monster that would have been! I think all three arrived with their work ethics largely set.

No one's a finished product -- until we die, maybe. The die (that other kind) should be pretty well cast, a kid's rough mold in place, by college.

Work ethic springs from attitude, being open to change and embracing challenges. Kids who succeed have a hunger or eagerness to improve that withstands the setbacks and negativity we invariably all encounter.

Seeing more of that from our teams the last couple years does not dim my disappointment at our short tourney runs. But makes me proud again to be both a Purdue grad and fan.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Here's a quote from New Pal Boiler from the Aaron Wheeler thread:

That lack of work ethic is a good chunk of the reason they were never highly ranked- goes hand in hand.

That's a thought I've had and I wanted to discuss it on a new thread by comparing two distinct features of a prospect:
1) Height
2) Work Ethic

In regards to height, nobody would ever say, "Well, once he gets on campus, we're going to work on his height exercises and add another 4 or 5 inches to his height" We know that 99% of young men are done growing by the time they are freshmen in college.

Conversely, I sometimes tend to think (and I suspect others do as well) that a guy that has had a marginal work ethic up to this point might suddenly get his butt in gear and start working really hard. I believe that happens far less than we imagine. 'Work ethic' is a feature of each prospect, just like height. Now, work ethic can change, but it normally doesn't change.

If 99% of players are done growing when they get to college, I would say that 90% of players will not significantly improve their work ethic when they get to college.

To say it another way, I would say that only 10% of college basketball players actually make a significant change in their work ethic once they get to college.

What do you think? What percentage of college basketball players actually have a significant increase in work ethic after they get to college?

Biggie is a perfect example: he MADE himself into the player he is today, in a period of about 5 years. He's not the most naturally gifted athlete around, but he took the physical traits he does have, and worked his ass off, BEFORE he got here. So no surprise he's the hardest worker on the team now.

 

[tjreese]

Biggie is a perfect example: he MADE himself into the player he is today, in a period of about 5 years. He's not the most naturally gifted athlete around, but he took the physical traits he does have, and worked his ass off, BEFORE he got here. So no surprise he's the hardest worker on the team now.

he is not remotely gifted as an athlete and definitely a work horse...which shows in his board work...

 

[Dryfly88]

[QUOTE="tjreese, post: 1184183, member: 4834"]he is not remotely gifted as an athlete and definitely a work horse...which shows in his board work...[/QUOTE]
Simply not true.

 

[tjreese]

[QUOTE="tjreese, post: 1184183, member: 4834"]he is not remotely gifted as an athlete and definitely a work horse...which shows in his board work...

Simply not true.[/QUOTE]

okay, tell me your thoughts. he is not fast and he doesn't have springs. I don't see the athleticism in him. I do see a work horse that is skillful. What "athletic" traits am I missing in discussing athleticism and not skill levels? What criteria defines athleticism for you?

 

[New Pal Boiler]

[QUOTE="tjreese, post: 1184183, member: 4834"]he is not remotely gifted as an athlete and definitely a work horse...which shows in his board work...

Simply not true.[/QUOTE]
Compared to the general population he is a good athlete, (in terms of explosiveness, vertical leap, lateral quickness) but not in comparison to the average starting 4 on a top 25 team.

 

[77 grad]

Strength? Heft? Eye-hand coordination? Soft touch? All take a work ethic -- and Biggie has a great one -- to develop. But they're not physical gifts that everyone has.

 

[mathboy]

Interesting discussion about Biggie's athleticism. I have always defined athleticism as the ability of fine motor control skills and quick reactions. Biggie has both of those. He lacks leg strength to jump, but he does have a certain quickness. Now that is just my observation. He uses his body control to get position and to move inside to get those rebounds. Having hands the size of a #2 coal scoop doesn't hurt either. I'd say he is not the most athletic of players, but I think he might be second to C Edwards in athletic ability.

 

[tjreese]

Simply not true.

Compared to the general population he is a good athlete, (in terms of explosiveness, vertical leap, lateral quickness) but not in comparison to the average starting 4 on a top 25 team.[/QUOTE]
well, the context is basketball and I'll even go to say that there are a lot of players more athletic than biggie...playing at a much lower level than a top 25 team. Biggie has a good frame, good vision, huge hands, good understanding of the game and more skillful than most along with a great competitive spirit to go with his work ethic. There are a hell of a lot of players quicker, more explosive and with more springs than Biggie, but not as good of a player. All that said he is younger than many and may mature into a more athletic player. When I think of Biggie...athleticism does NOT come to mind in the context of D1 basketball...but that is just me perhaps.... He is a made player with a nicely filled body...

 

[cprh9u]

A good coach can help players develop in their work ethic. 90% doesn't seem far off, and no coach can make everyone work harder (there will always be some players that don't) but the best coaches get their guys to bust their butt for them.

 

[Dryfly88]

Simply not true.

okay, tell me your thoughts. he is not fast and he doesn't have springs. I don't see the athleticism in him. I do see a work horse that is skillful. What "athletic" traits am I missing in discussing athleticism and not skill levels? What criteria defines athleticism for you?[/QUOTE]
Here are my thoughts: The problem I have with your original statement was the use of the word "remotely". He is not a supreme athlete measured by vertical leap or lateral quickness. However, like someone else mentioned those are just some of the characteristics of an athlete. There is coordination, physical strength and soft touch.

When you say someone is not remotely gifted as an athlete, to me that is describing someone who is a stiff and probably riding the pine if he is even on a D1 team. Hard work has made Caleb a much better player, no argument there. I just think you were shorting the athlete that was/is already there with the use of the word remotely. JMO

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

imo, GDBarlow was the last great athlete we had but I think Biggie is pretty good. He is a big boned dude so he's never going to be a high flyer, but other than that compared to guys his size he's got ball handling, footwork, strength and a decent shot with touch around the basket. I'll take it. He ain't going into ballet...

 

[tjreese]

okay, tell me your thoughts. he is not fast and he doesn't have springs. I don't see the athleticism in him. I do see a work horse that is skillful. What "athletic" traits am I missing in discussing athleticism and not skill levels? What criteria defines athleticism for you?

Here are my thoughts: The problem I have with your original statement was the use of the word "remotely". He is not a supreme athlete measured by vertical leap or lateral quickness. However, like someone else mentioned those are just some of the characteristics of an athlete. There is coordination, physical strength and soft touch.

When you say someone is not remotely gifted as an athlete, to me that is describing someone who is a stiff and probably riding the pine if he is even on a D1 team. Hard work has made Caleb a much better player, no argument there. I just think you were shorting the athlete that was/is already there with the use of the word remotely. JMO[/QUOTE]

no problem I understand where you are coming from. Teh only reason Biggie is not a first round NBA player already is his athleticism. My whole thought was on athletic players in D1, not the population on the whole or those not very athletic. Purdue as a team is not athletic...they are skilled...but on Purdue's team ...biggie is more athletic than some...

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

***

Here are my thoughts: The problem I have with your original statement was the use of the word "remotely". He is not a supreme athlete measured by vertical leap or lateral quickness. However, like someone else mentioned those are just some of the characteristics of an athlete. There is coordination, physical strength and soft touch.
***
I just think you were shorting the athlete that was/is already there with the use of the word remotely. JMO

I see where Dry was going with "remotely." Perhaps CS wouldn't win any contests with some specific quantifiable measureables......but I agree that size and strength can be translated for athletic as could eye-hand and other coordination. He has certainly put in the work and overcome some large obstacles.

We also have a tendency to forget that even though he was highly regarded coming out of high school (and rightfully so), he was still an underaged freshman last year. I'm looking forward to seeing him play this year.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Simply not true.

Compared to the general population he is a good athlete, (in terms of explosiveness, vertical leap, lateral quickness) but not in comparison to the average starting 4 on a top 25 team.[/QUOTE]
Neither was Larry Bird or a host of other players that used other "gifts" to achieve their goals.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Compared to the general population he is a good athlete, (in terms of explosiveness, vertical leap, lateral quickness) but not in comparison to the average starting 4 on a top 25 team.

well, the context is basketball and I'll even go to say that there are a lot of players more athletic than biggie...playing at a much lower level than a top 25 team. Biggie has a good frame, good vision, huge hands, good understanding of the game and more skillful than most along with a great competitive spirit to go with his work ethic. There are a hell of a lot of players quicker, more explosive and with more springs than Biggie, but not as good of a player. All that said he is younger than many and may mature into a more athletic player. When I think of Biggie...athleticism does NOT come to mind in the context of D1 basketball...but that is just me perhaps.... He is a made player with a nicely filled body...[/QUOTE]
Lawson was a more explosive athlete, but coild

Compared to the general population he is a good athlete, (in terms of explosiveness, vertical leap, lateral quickness) but not in comparison to the average starting 4 on a top 25 team.

Neither was Larry Bird or a host of other players that used other "gifts" to achieve their goals.[/QUOTE]
yeah... we know. I was making the point that Biggie made himself into a top player without the benefit of elite athleticism.

 

[tjreese]

Compared to the general population he is a good athlete, (in terms of explosiveness, vertical leap, lateral quickness) but not in comparison to the average starting 4 on a top 25 team.

Neither was Larry Bird or a host of other players that used other "gifts" to achieve their goals.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely...but birds sometimes fly as well. Athleticism was the topic and I was speaking from a basketball perspective. I doubt too many coaches consider Biggie near as athletic as many players, but obviously better than most. Athleticism either have it or not does NOT define the player. It is a "physical" attribute, not something compensated for mentally. There seems to be some confusion on athleticism as a trait in basketball...which honestly surprises me.