Turnovers

[reswat]

It feels great to win so easily against Wisconsin, but the turnovers are still a problem. We can't turn it over like that in March and hope to get very far. Just too many telegraphed passes and unforced errors.

One more concern in that regard is that we won so easily. Maybe we aren't feeling the sting of those turnovers as much as we should - not enough to make a change. I hope the coaching staff continues to hammer on our need to reduce those stupid mistakes..

(I'm only complaining because I feel good right now. If we had lost, I wouldn't be piling on right now.)

 

[BoilerGal74]

You must lead a really sad life....talk about "half empty".

 

[TC4THREE]

I don't disagree that they are a problem but do you really think they have gone unaddressed? I'm sure the staff is trying to address it whether they win or lose. I'm not sure how to correct it and I think we are to the point where it is just a weakness of the team.

 

[reswat]

I don't disagree that they are a problem but do you really think they have gone unaddressed? I'm sure the staff is trying to address it whether they win or lose. I'm not sure how to correct it and I think we are to the point where it is just a weakness of the team.

Some problems just can't really be addressed during the season, like...
We need more height
We're too slow
We don't shoot very well
We have low basketball IQ

But turnovers are something that can be addressed during the season. I'm not prepared to admit that it's 'just a weakness of the team'. I believe we have time and that a concentrated coaching effort could improve the turnover issue before the end of the season.

 

[boiler-deuce]

You must lead a really sad life....talk about "half empty".

Hey, if you're a glass half empty person, just pour in some Capt Morgan to fill it. LOL

 

[TC4THREE]

Some problems just can't really be addressed during the season, like...
We need more height
We're too slow
We don't shoot very well
We have low basketball IQ

But turnovers are something that can be addressed during the season. I'm not prepared to admit that it's 'just a weakness of the team'. I believe we have time and that a concentrated coaching effort could improve the turnover issue before the end of the season.

Our turnovers come largely from feeding the post. You don't think we working feeding the post, passing out of the post, and post offense?

 

[lbodel]

It feels great to win so easily against Wisconsin, but the turnovers are still a problem. We can't turn it over like that in March and hope to get very far. Just too many telegraphed passes and unforced errors.

One more concern in that regard is that we won so easily. Maybe we aren't feeling the sting of those turnovers as much as we should - not enough to make a change. I hope the coaching staff continues to hammer on our need to reduce those stupid mistakes..

(I'm only complaining because I feel good right now. If we had lost, I wouldn't be piling on right now.)

We had a very similar problem last year - and it got moderately better during Big Ten season.

While Swanigan does some great things - he's still a major turnover problem. He had 8 of our 18 turnovers.

Mathias had a pretty uncharacteristic 4.

And outside of that, one guy had 2 (Carsen) and everyone else had 0 or 1.

So this really is mostly on Swanigan, at least in this game. But he's still had a very high turnover rate this whole season.

 

[lbodel]

Our turnovers come largely from feeding the post. You don't think we working feeding the post, passing out of the post, and post offense?

8 of our 18 turnovers were by 1 specific post player. Of course we're working on it, but Swanigan has been a turnover machine from day 1. It's a big problem to his game - and obviously he has a lot of positive things to his game too that make us forget that sometimes.

 

[TC4THREE]

8 of our 18 turnovers were by 1 specific post player. Of course we're working on it, but Swanigan has been a turnover machine from day 1. It's a big problem to his game - and obviously he has a lot of positive things to his game too that make us forget that sometimes.

I don't disagree but what's the solution? Bench him for being careless? Tell him not to carry the ball while trying to spin in the post? I just don't think it's a problem that coaching alone can solve.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

its the top of the key entry pass ones that are so bad. totally slop and lead to runouts. not just biggie either. luckily we were the much better team tonight and played great otherwise.

 

[lbodel]

I don't disagree but what's the solution? Bench him for being careless? Tell him not to carry the ball while trying to spin in the post? I just don't think it's a problem that coaching alone can solve.

I'm not saying bench him, but it's a major flaw to his game. I do not remember Dakotas' very well (I think one was him feeding Swanigan which was more-so Swanigan's fault).

Like I said, we had a similar problem last year (with Swanigan being a major part of it) and it got better as time went on.

I do think at times Swanigan is trying TOO hard. We missed a couple rebounds tonight because he tried to get in there when his teammate would have it himself. It's absolutely not him being selfish, but I think at times he gets too excited in there.

Vince has also always had a turnover issue. He's averaging just over 2 a game, but he also has nearly twice as many assists as he does turnovers, which is great (he's just behind Dakota on leading the team in assists).

Carsen Edwards definitely has some growing to do, not surprising given he's a true freshman. His assist/turnover ratio is basically 1:1 which isn't great (PJ is 58 assists to 11 turnovers to compare). But Carsen's numbers basically boil down to 2 turnovers/game, which isn't horrible for a guy in his position, especially as a freshman.

So when you look at our team turnovers - we're averaging about 14 a game. Not great - but #2 in the Big Ten would be 12 a game.

So if we can shave off a couple - and a lot of that could be Swanigan - we would be in better shape.

The thing that's most frustrating is that our team is AWESOME with assists, great with rebounds, etc. If we do a better job taking care of the ball, we will be very tough to beat.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

CS has 58 turnovers for 17 games, just under 3 and 1/2 per game....if he could get that down to a little over two a game, it would make a big difference. I don't think you want him to change his game....work on his hands and anticipate a few double teams better. One good thing is that IIRC, he hasn't had that many travels or TO's in open space. a few of his turnovers this season were also some nicel-dimer offensive fouls as well.

Is it a problem? yeah....his biggest weakness IMO....I think he can improve on it, but I also think CMP knows he might have to just live with some of it....he's the heart of the team.

Wisconsin is a good defensive team, but some of today's turnovers were just unforced poorly executed plays.....and a couple of telegraphs that were intercepted.

 

[nagemj02]

Well, Biggie had 8 of them but he's option #1 so one has to take the good with the bad. Sometimes they (guards, forwards, and Swanigan himself) telegraph their post entries and also Biggie had a case of the shuffles a few times. They can cut down on TO's but don't expect them to be under 10 TPG at season's end.

 

[Bethboilerfan]

Biggie had at least two turnovers because of travel calls.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Some problems just can't really be addressed during the season, like...
We need more height
We're too slow
We don't shoot very well
We have low basketball IQ

But turnovers are something that can be addressed during the season. I'm not prepared to admit that it's 'just a weakness of the team'. I believe we have time and that a concentrated coaching effort could improve the turnover issue before the end of the season.

Keep in mind that seven of them were attributed to Swanigan. The reason that they didn't hurt us too badly is that most of them were the type which stop play momentarily, travels, offensive fouls, etcetera and therefore do not lead to fast break opportunities. Many of them come trying to feed the post or pass in the lane. While I agree the numbers are too high, there is going to be a bit more of that with as much interior play as we use. If you think coaches and players are not working on it you are being foolish. If it were easy to fix, there would be no turnovers.

 

[Purdue0034]

One thing to remember is Biggie had quite a few turns after the game was already decided. It didn't seem like he made that many turnovers because of when they happened.

 

[cgnops]

Biggie had at least two turnovers because of travel calls.

Was there a rule change with travel calls? Or just emphasis is different? Seems like lots more traveling calls this year.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

Biggie had at least two turnovers because of travel calls.

Yeah, today was a cornucopia...I recall the spin move late and when Hayes "pulled the chair" on him in the first half. There was also a pass from out on the wing that was stolen....as bad as the CSU game as far as turnovers go.

7-10 from the field (2-2 from three); 2-2 from FT, 13 boards (and a few knockdowns).....on the good side of the ledger.

 

[BuilderBob6]

Keep in mind that seven of them were attributed to Swanigan. The reason that they didn't hurt us too badly is that most of them were the type which stop play momentarily, travels, offensive fouls, etcetera and therefore do not lead to fast break opportunities. Many of them come trying to feed the post or pass in the lane. While I agree the numbers are too high, there is going to be a bit more of that with as much interior play as we use. If you think coaches and players are not working on it you are being foolish. If it were easy to fix, there would be no turnovers.

Agreed. Our opponents know what we want to do and will work hard at defending the post feed. Hard not to telegraph the pass from the wing. It helps to keep your dribble so you can still move and use the bounce pass. But when you pick it up it's almost always gonna be a lob.
Painter mentioned in the presser how much quicker Happ is than they bigs he guards. He showed that tonight, being able to move quickly to the side the pass was coming and get a hand in for the steal.
What I see is Biggie or Haas sometimes need to come meet the ball instead of waiting for it to get to them. Don't have to come far, don't want to lose your position, but even a few feet would help. Also they can't be back on their heels, leaning on their defender. Get low, shoulders over your toes to keep their balance but still be able to move to the pass.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Agreed. Our opponents know what we want to do and will work hard at defending the post feed. Hard not to telegraph the pass from the wing. It helps to keep your dribble so you can still move and use the bounce pass. But when you pick it up it's almost always gonna be a lob.
Painter mentioned in the presser how much quicker Haap is than they bigs he guards. He showed that tonight, being able to move quickly to the side the pass was coming and get a hand in for the steal.
What I see is Biggie or Haas sometimes need to come meet the ball instead of waiting for it to get to them. Don't have to come far, don't want to lose your position, but even a few feet would help. Also they can't be back on their heels, leaning on their defender. Get low, shoulders over your toes to keep their balance but still be able to move to the pass.

It requires the poster to move sideways to cut off the path to the ball for the defender so that he doesn't have to come to the ball very far. You don't want to give up too much of that position you just fought to get or take yourself out of scoring position once you get it. Quickness like Happs makes it tough.

 

[BuilderBob6]

It requires the poster to move sideways to cut off the path to the ball for the defender so that he doesn't have to come to the ball very far. You don't want to give up too much of that position you just fought to get or take yourself out of scoring position once you get it. Quickness like Happs makes it tough.

Yea, just gotta move to the pass. All entry passes are not created equal.

 

[tjreese]

CS has 58 turnovers for 17 games, just under 3 and 1/2 per game....if he could get that down to a little over two a game, it would make a big difference. I don't think you want him to change his game....work on his hands and anticipate a few double teams better. One good thing is that IIRC, he hasn't had that many travels or TO's in open space. a few of his turnovers this season were also some nicel-dimer offensive fouls as well.

Is it a problem? yeah....his biggest weakness IMO....I think he can improve on it, but I also think CMP knows he might have to just live with some of it....he's the heart of the team.

Wisconsin is a good defensive team, but some of today's turnovers were just unforced poorly executed plays.....and a couple of telegraphs that were intercepted.

Haap was very quick and got a few. Wisconsin jumped a few passes as they knew where the ball was going. They also were looking for the overhead pass to teh post and got a few of those as well. I would like for Haas to be fed sometimes by taking the ball to him rather than him going to the ball. Sometimes I would like for Purdue to come around on a dribble and feed him from the dribbler getting the angle instead of him most generally going to the ball...particularly when teams get to fronting him

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

We had a very similar problem last year - and it got moderately better during Big Ten season.

While Swanigan does some great things - he's still a major turnover problem. He had 8 of our 18 turnovers.

Mathias had a pretty uncharacteristic 4.

And outside of that, one guy had 2 (Carsen) and everyone else had 0 or 1.

So this really is mostly on Swanigan, at least in this game. But he's still had a very high turnover rate this whole season.

And it's because of this, I expect Swanigan to get it corrected.

 

[tjreese]

I don't disagree but what's the solution? Bench him for being careless? Tell him not to carry the ball while trying to spin in the post? I just don't think it's a problem that coaching alone can solve.

Actually, with the reverse dribble (some call it spin) it is important to keep the hand on the ball and carry it as you swing your foot backwords to hook with your foot. The hand and leg should go together, but the an important key is to keep the ball fairly close to your body so it isn't as obvious and keep it low. The mistake you will see young players make is to actually switch their hands when they reverse and that first dribble in the reverse is the same hand. I know you know that, but I don't want people to think that a reverse dribble as biggie tried and he got it too far from his body AND high is a bad thing.

 

[SIBoiler2]

Biggie is always working. He will no doubt lower his turnovers but if he gives up his aggressiveness to do so we will be the losers.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Biggie is always working. He will no doubt lower his turnovers but if he gives up his aggressiveness to do so we will be the losers.

I think he happened to just be over aggressive tonight because he was going against Happ and Hayes. When Biggie isn't over aggressive, he really does a good job of limiting his TO's...but when he gets over aggressive and plays a bit of 'hero ball,' the TO bug tends to strike him pretty hard. He'll find a happy medium and when he does (and has shown this season), 20/20 games aren't out of his reach in conference play.

 

[FirstDownB]

Watching the game, most of the turnovers didn't bother me too much. I think that was because the majority were in the spirit of trying to get a high percentage shot. And in between the turnovers similar play led to a lot of good high percentage shots.

It seems that a good offense, even when clicking, inherently trades off a lot of bad shots for better ones plus an occasional turnover. Yes, there are things that can be done to limit them, but simply taking chances with "high reward" passes and post moves that often lead to easy baskets is going to lead to occasional turnovers. In those cases they are essentially equal to a missed field goal. Look at Biggie's stat line as evidence. Few missed field goals with high turnovers reflects how he was aggressively trying to get to the basket, which was much more net positive than negative. If he was shooting turnaround fadeaway jumpers all night or making mechanical/ineffective post moves with no turnovers people would be up in arms.

Also felt there was a fine line on the traveling calls. I'm not sure Haap made a single effective post move all night without shuffling his feet.

 

[tjreese]

Watching the game, most of the turnovers didn't bother me too much. I think that was because the majority were in the spirit of trying to get a high percentage shot. And in between the turnovers similar play led to a lot of good high percentage shots.

It seems that a good offense, even when clicking, inherently trades off a lot of bad shots for better ones plus an occasional turnover. Yes, there are things that can be done to limit them, but simply taking chances with "high reward" passes and post moves that often lead to easy baskets is going to lead to occasional turnovers. In those cases they are essentially equal to a missed field goal. Look at Biggie's stat line as evidence. Few missed field goals with high turnovers reflects how he was aggressively trying to get to the basket, which was much more net positive than negative. If he was shooting turnaround fadeaway jumpers all night or making mechanical/ineffective post moves with no turnovers people would be up in arms.

Also felt there was a fine line on the traveling calls. I'm not sure Haap made a single effective post move all night without shuffling his feet.

Unlike guards and wings, many turnovers on the inside do not directly lead to baskets. Generally those go against a set or relatively set D

 

[rgarlitz]

Unlike guards and wings, many turnovers on the inside do not directly lead to baskets. Generally those go against a set or relatively set D

That's an excellent point, tjreese.

Purdue's 18 turnovers led to 0 Wisconsin fast-break points. Our guys didn't give up anything cheap yesterday -- nothing that ever shifted the momentum toward Wisconsin.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Unlike guards and wings, many turnovers on the inside do not directly lead to baskets. Generally those go against a set or relatively set D

Have to agree here. As long as the TO's don't lead to run-outs, fast breaks, and easy buckets...Purdue is usually fine because of their defense and their ability to get good looks inside at will with Haas and Biggie. The games they have struggled have been because of bad TO's on the wings or long shots that lead to long rebounds and run-outs by the opposing team.

 

[tjreese]

Have to agree here. As long as the TO's don't lead to run-outs, fast breaks, and easy buckets...Purdue is usually fine because of their defense and their ability to get good looks inside at will with Haas and Biggie. The games they have struggled have been because of bad TO's on the wings or long shots that lead to long rebounds and run-outs by the opposing team.

absolutely and as Purdue now plays Big teams...they are ready to jump those wing passes.

 

[BoilerAndy]

It feels great to win so easily against Wisconsin, but the turnovers are still a problem. We can't turn it over like that in March and hope to get very far. Just too many telegraphed passes and unforced errors.

One more concern in that regard is that we won so easily. Maybe we aren't feeling the sting of those turnovers as much as we should - not enough to make a change. I hope the coaching staff continues to hammer on our need to reduce those stupid mistakes..

(I'm only complaining because I feel good right now. If we had lost, I wouldn't be piling on right now.)

Defense is improving. Expecting that turnovers will, too.

 

[Boiler Wolf]

Per a post on the BadgerNation Scout forum, Wisky scored 14 points off Boiler turnovers and Purdue scored 7 off of Badger TOs.

 

[DG10]

We had a very similar problem last year - and it got moderately better during Big Ten season.

While Swanigan does some great things - he's still a major turnover problem. He had 8 of our 18 turnovers.

Mathias had a pretty uncharacteristic 4.

And outside of that, one guy had 2 (Carsen) and everyone else had 0 or 1.

So this really is mostly on Swanigan, at least in this game. But he's still had a very high turnover rate this whole season.

Swanigan has been much better this year with respect to turnovers, and even yesterday, two of them that he had were as much the fault of who he was passing to as it was him for the pass and a third was a bogus offensive foul that Hayes managed to coax late in the game, with a fourth being the play that he grabbed the rebound and was fouled and then was fouled again by Happ only to be called for a phantom foul himself.

Not at all fair to label him a major turnover problem...it was last year, but not this year.

The turnovers that are bothersome are the ones specifically by Mathias and Edwards where they telegraph a pass or virtually just throw it to the defender...both have been guilty of such, although Edwards far more than Dakota.

A lot of Purdue's turnovers are not forced...which should make them easier to address...hopefully that is what happens.

 

[FirstDownB]

Per a post on the BadgerNation Scout forum, Wisky scored 14 points off Boiler turnovers and Purdue scored 7 off of Badger TOs.

Very misleading stat as those 14 points were much different than a breakaway basket. When a turnover results in a half court set for the opponent it is no different than a missed shot attempt.

Of course after seeing the Badger fast break offense, we may have been better off giving them breakaways!

 

[lbodel]

Swanigan has been much better this year with respect to turnovers, and even yesterday, two of them that he had were as much the fault of who he was passing to as it was him for the pass and a third was a bogus offensive foul that Hayes managed to coax late in the game, with a fourth being the play that he grabbed the rebound and was fouled and then was fouled again by Happ only to be called for a phantom foul himself.

Not at all fair to label him a major turnover problem...it was last year, but not this year.

The turnovers that are bothersome are the ones specifically by Mathias and Edwards where they telegraph a pass or virtually just throw it to the defender...both have been guilty of such, although Edwards far more than Dakota.

A lot of Purdue's turnovers are not forced...which should make them easier to address...hopefully that is what happens.

I think Swanigan has improved (I'd say it's not as consistent of an issue, but still creeps up a decent amoun). However, I certainly wouldn't say it's not an issue still. He averages 3.4 a game (essentially four a game) and one every 9 minutes - that's certainly not good.

And sure, you can say two of them weren't his fault completely - that still leaves him with six!

 

[DG10]

I think Swanigan has improved (I'd say it's not as consistent of an issue, but still creeps up a decent amoun). However, I certainly wouldn't say it's not an issue still. He averages 3.4 a game (essentially four a game) and one every 9 minutes - that's certainly not good.

And sure, you can say two of them weren't his fault completely - that still leaves him with six!

He absolutely still needs to improve and does turn the ball over too much, but, I think he has definitely improved from a year ago.

Of the 8 turnovers on Sunday...two of them as mentioned were as much his fault as they were who he was trying to get the ball to...which left the six that you referenced...one of those was the bogus offensive foul call that Hayes completely coaxed the official into calling, and another was off the rebound that he had where Happ fouled him as he knocked him down and in turn stole the ball from him while knocking him down...which would leave him at his average of 4...no doubt not ideal still, but, given how much he has the ball in his hands, not the end of the world either.

Like say, he still needs to get better...but, I think he has gotten better, and I think he can (and hopefully will) get better.