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The Imperial President?

SDBoiler1

All-American
Gold Member
Jul 30, 2001
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Bloomberg and the New York Times aren't exactly known for being right-leaning. I agree with the assertions made here about immigration. This is about getting more votes for the Democrats over time. Obama is overstepping his authority and needs to be checked.
This post was edited on 8/6 7:55 PM by SDBoiler1

Even the Left is Starting to Push Back
 
Do you realize how newspapers are set-up?

They have editorial/columnists, some liberal, some conservative. When one person writes a column, it does not "represent" the entire newspaper.

Ross Douthat is a conservative. Not sure why this writer seems to think he's a liberal. Just because he writes for the New York Times does not make him liberal. He replaced Bill Kristol, also a conservative, when he left the NYT.
 
Do you think the general point of the column is correct? Obama is acting like an imperial President - he seems to increasingly think he is above the law, even though he has a law background.
 
I do not believe he thinks he is above the law. I think he is attempting to do everything he legally can without congressional action and is taking liberal measures in doing so (recess appointments). I do not believe he is trying to be "Imperial," simply that he is attempting to push his agenda against the giant headwind that is the Republican House. By circumventing the House, he's trying to get done what he thinks is right. Fortunately, checks and balances exist and this very "headwind", as I have called it, is supposed to be there. Change in this country, under this government, is supposed to be difficult because it is not intended to be a governmental system whereby any one person or group of people can implement whatever the F they want every four to eight years without a mandate from the voters. He no longer has that mandate, even though he did for the most part in his first term. I'm not sure he understands that.

This post was edited on 8/7 11:49 AM by gr8indoorsman
 
That all makes sense except the last two sentences.

Why would you (or anyone) say the President not have a mandate now? He was re-elected less than two years ago.

But in general this is a tempest in a teapot. Words like "impeach" and "sue" and "imperial" and my favorite "dereliction" (which means "abandonment") are being tossed around by people who simply don't like the President's decisions. They want you to believe the duly elected President isn't allowed to make those decisions, but the only reality is that they just don't like them. It's irresponsible language but they are entitled to say what they want.
 
Sorry but the comedic side of me took over when I saw the title of this thread. The image below immediately came to mind:

vader-obama.jpg
 
His party, and thus he, does not have a mandate. That would be (D) President, and (D) Congress. To me, that's a mandate for the party. The President is essentially the figurehead of his Party in our present system. If people wanted Democratic policies to get through unchallenged, they would not have elected Republican control of the House. Thus, no mandate.

Your second sentence is spot on and is why the Republican party is frankly an embarassment right now.
This post was edited on 8/7 3:03 PM by gr8indoorsman
 
he's doing what every single President

has done before him (and will do after) only numerically doing it less than has been done for most of the last 100 years.
 
Re: he's doing what every single President


Absolutely false. This President, unlike Reagan, GHWB, and to some degree Clinton after the rebuff of the Republicans and Newt Gingrich by the electorate, refuses to try to do anything in a bipartisan manner.

When has any President ramrodded a huge new entitlement program through Congress like Obamacare on a strictly party-line basis? Not one Republican voted for it.

Obama's foreign policy is an unmitigated disaster. He's managed to tick off almost every good ally we have, including Germany, Poland, Brazil, India, Israel, etc., etc. He's made Putin into an enemy. Putin thumbs his nose at Obama now.

You cannot say with a straight face that Obama's main goal for a "path to citizenship" for illegal immigrants is anything other than a ploy to ultimately get more Democratic votes in the future. This President never meets with Republicans from Congress, and from what I've read, rarely meets with his own Democratic Congressional leaders either.

Whether intended or not, he is acting like an "imperial President". It's my way or the highway. "We won, get over it!"

As for the assertion that I used the terms "sue", "impeach", or "dereliction". Asinine. Those are not my terms. I do think he is trying to stretch the powers given to him beyond their actual limits. He needs to tread very lightly right now. His advisors are not doing him any favors at all.
 
lol

yes, the fact that Republicans completely opposed something that the Democrats supported means that he "ramrodded" it through the Congress that was controlled by one party as voted in by the voters.

What a tyrant! I'm sure Bush wouldn't have ram-rodded in Medicare Part D if the handful of Dems (literally) hadn't been needed to vote for it. Why those couple of Dems are clearly the difference between tyrant, and faithful democracy-lover.

The rest of that rant neither had anything to do with the subject at hand, or was anything other than a listing, with varying degrees of accuracy or lack thereof that stuff that SDBoiler says.
 
Re: he's doing what every single President

Immigration has been a big topic of discussion lately. He supports the Senate bill, supported by 2/3+ of the Senate in a vote. The House won't even vote on it or really come up with an alternative bill similar in nature.

Who's not compromising?
 
Re: he's doing what every single President

Please, anything the House has put out or tried to put out on Immigration Reform, Obama has threatened to veto it. Also, the Senate has refused to take up plans the House has floated.

Of course Obama is going to support something the Democrats want. They are trying to implement the infamous "path to citizenship" for illegals.
 
Re: lol


Yes, with your typical condescending attitude, you ignore the majority of my post. If you disagree with it, it is a rant. Most everything you post on here is a rant, so if you can do it, so can I.

I asked you to name another large entitlement program pushed through on a strictly party-line basis and you either couldn't do it or refused to do it. Medicare Part D is tiny compared to Obamacare in scale and overall cost impact on US citizens and you know it. Obamacare isn't going to come close to the supposed cost savings that it was sold on. Medicare Part B also wasn't done on a strictly party-line basis. Without Democratic support, it would not have passed. That is a fact.

Show me how I'm wrong in my assertion about illegal immigrants. Do you honestly think Obama's doing it because he really cares about Hispanic people that much? No, he realizes that by doing what he's doing (pandering to this particular demographic, which tends to lean highly to the left), he will only increase the Democratic base of voters over time.

Also, show me how I'm wrong about his foreign policy. It is an unmitigated disaster. Name one major ally that has a better relationship with the US now than when Obama took office. You will be hard-pressed to do so. He has managed to alienate a good number of our close, important friends around the world with his horrendous foreign policy decisions.

Well to his credit, I guess our relations with Venezuela, Cuba, and Iran are marginally better now than 6 years ago.
 
Re: Who's not compromising?

Read what you linked.


Our ruling
Jenkins said that in the "do-nothing Senate," there are 352 House bills "sitting on Harry Reid's desk awaiting action," including 55 introduced by Democrats.
In some cases, committee chairs -- not Reid -- may be blocking or moving slowly on these bills. In other cases, senators are working on their own alternative bills on the same topic. Meanwhile, the claim oversells the degree of bipartisanship in the House; a majority of the Democratic-sponsored bills she cites are relatively minor pieces of legislation.
Ultimately, Jenkins places all the blame on the Democrats and the Senate, but experts agree that it takes two to tango. Both parties and chambers have played a role in creating the current legislative dysfunction. On balance, we rate the claim Half True.
 
wow

1. Medicare Part D cost a trillion dollars over ten years. It doesn't pay for itself. Suggesting that somehow the ACA is huge, and Medicare Part D is tiny shows either complete disingenuousness or ignorance.

2. The fact that you think there's a difference btw no folks from one party supporting it, and a handful is the same as one, either disingenuous or ignorance.
 
Re: Who's not compromising?

Just for kicks, I looked up that list of 352 bills and have linked to it below. I am not sure how the page will open when it is linked to but their is a sort mechanism on the left side of the page where you can look for the house bills.

I didn't have the patience to go through the whole list but did notice at least one bill to repeal Obamacare and a bunch of others that dealt with naming or renaming federal buildings and such. Also, the names of the bills really don't give you a whole lot of insight as to what may be contained within them.

Link
 
Re: wow

Medicare Part D net expenditures from 2009 through 2018 are estimated to be $727.3 billion.

According to the Senate Budget Committee, Obamacare is now projected to cost $2.6 trillion between FY 14 and FY 23. There are many people who now believe this number is actually low.

Even when you correct for the FY differences, Medicare Part D is on the order of 2.5 times less in cost than Obamacare over 10 years.

Yeah, what's nearly $1.5 trillion amongst friends over 10 years, huh?

I am being neither disingenuous nor ignorant about Medicare Part D or the FACT that no Republicans voted for Obamacare.

You are the one being disingenuous.
 
I did read what I linked! And...

maybe I should have stated that there are more than 300+ house bills that the Senate has not taken action on! But the link did conclude that:" In some cases, committee chairs -- not Reid -- may be blocking or moving slowly on these bills, experts agree that it takes two to tango and both parties and chambers have played a role in creating the current legislative dysfunction!
 
According to the CBO

the ACA will end up, or nearly end up, paying for itself. Which of course, we both know you knew that.

Also, Medicare Part D started before 2009, so why you start counting at that point rhymes with disingenuous.
 
Re: According to the CBO


Good God, you're a moron.

The ACA will NEVER pay for itself. The figures you site have long been discredited and discarded. The CBO has had to redo its calculations numerous times and the cost has gone UP every single time.

The numbers I quoted from the Senate Budget Cmte were based on the latest CBO figures.

As for Medicare Part D, I used figures starting with 2009 because they were the latest I could find covering a stated 10-yr period. I did see one reference saying the cost was $863B as of 2013, but it didn't state the period covered.

So if you want to be a dick about it, use the figure $863B for Medicare Part D, which would mean the difference is even larger than I said before.

You are being disingenuous, but you're too stubborn to admit when you're wrong.
 
Re: According to the CBO

To the point you tried to make earlier about Medicare Part D being voted in in almost the same way as Obamacare, you are dead wrong.

For the Prescription Drug Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003, Senate Vote #459 in November 2003 went as follows:

54 Yea - 44 Nay - 2 Did Not Vote

Of the 54 Yeas, 11 Democrats voted for it, including:

Blanche Lincoln (AR)
Dianne Feinstein (CA)
Thomas Carper (DE)
Zell Miller (GA)
John Breaux (LA)
Mary Landrieu (LA)
Max Baucus (MT)
Ben Nelson (NE)
Kent Conrad (ND)
Byron Dorgan (ND)
Ron Wyden (OR)

Independent Jim Jeffords of VT also voted for it. 9 Republicans voted against it.

Once again, I have proven you are the disingenuous one. Very good job of distracting and obfuscating.
 
let me help you out


since you either can't do a simple search on wiki or did an extensive one and then decided to avoid adding all the various bits that show just how one-sided this bill was as far as political support. Almost zero votes in the House, and less than 1/4 in the Senate, including a filibuster that was almost successful. Yeah, there's a simple version, then there's the one adults understand.

"The bill was debated and negotiated for nearly six months in
Congress, and finally passed amid unusual circumstances. Several times
in the legislative process the bill had appeared to have failed, but
each time was saved when a couple of Congressmen and Senators switched
positions on the bill.


The bill was introduced in the Dennis Hastert.
All that day and the next the bill was debated, and it was apparent
that the bill would be very divisive. In the early morning of June 27, a
floor vote was taken. After the initial electronic vote, the count
stood at 214 yeas, 218 nays.


Three Republican representatives then changed their votes. One opponent of the bill, Jo Ann Emerson (MO-8) switched their vote to "aye" under pressure from the party leadership. The bill passed by one vote, 216-215.


On June 26, the Senate passed its version of the bill, 76-21. The
bills were unified in conference, and on November 21, the bill came back
to the House for approval.


The bill came to a vote at 3 a.m. on November 22. After 45 minutes, the bill was losing, 219-215, with Tom DeLay
sought to convince some of dissenting Republicans to switch their
votes, as they had in June. Istook, who had always been a wavering vote,
consented quickly, producing a 218-216 tally. In a highly unusual move,
the House leadership held the vote open for hours as they sought two
more votes. Then-Representative Nick Smith
(R-MI) claimed he was offered campaign funds for his son, who was
running to replace him, in return for a change in his vote from "nay" to
"yea." After controversy ensued, Smith clarified no explicit offer of
campaign funds was made, but that he was offered "substantial and
aggressive campaign support" which he had assumed included financial
support.[6]



About 5:50 a.m., convinced Otter and [7]



The Democrats cried foul, and Bill Thomas,
the Republican chairman of the Ways and Means committee, challenged the
result in a gesture to satisfy the concerns of the minority. He
subsequently voted to table his own challenge; the tally to table was
210 ayes, 193 noes.[citation needed]



The Senate's consideration of the conference report was somewhat less heated, as Tom Daschle,
and voted on. As 60 votes were necessary to override it, the challenge
was actually considered to have a credible chance of passing.


For several minutes, the vote total was stuck at 58-39, until Senators [10]"

no, not "dead wrong"
 
so many wrong things

1. Nope, they have not gone up "every single time." On 7 Aug 14 the CBO lowered their cost projection by $104 Billion dollars. I mean that was literally two days ago. On Apr 14 2014, they lowered projected costs. So no, if you think "it's gone up every single time" it is not based on the "latest CBO figures." And the CBO has NOT changed its opinion that the ACA will be deficit neutral. In 2012, it projected 109 billion reduction in the deficit through to 2024. It has NOT changed that but has said it's going to stop making further deficit reduction projections.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/health-exchange/2014/02/04/cbo-says-obamacare-will-add-to-deficit-create-reluctant-work-force/

I know you think, boy that link says right in the title that the ACA WILL add to the deficit. Nope:

"Editor's note: This story was corrected to note that Obamacare insurance costs may not add to federal deficit." "In several charts in its report, the CBO calls these "effects on the
cumulative federal deficit." But in footnotes and other portions of the
175-page report, the CBO points out there are other sources of revenue
generated under the ACA that are expected to make it deficit neutral.
CBO officials said in 2012 they saw the ACA as deficit neutral in its
entirety and have yet to re-examine that issue, a spokeswoman said. This
report just examines costs."

That's MarketWatch, but I'm SURE they are liberal"morons" too.

2. Medicare Part D. Program starts in 06, you start your costs in 09, but I'm being "a dick about it" because you've tried to make calculations excluding the first three years of the program. A smarter, less disingenuous person would be less combative about such a thing and admit, well, I shoulda done better there.

The cost in 2008 alone was 49.3 Billion. In 2014 alone, the cost for the ACA was estimated to be $36 billion, and the cost for Medicare Part D is estimated to be $35 billion. So yeah, HUGE difference there. From 2015-2024 the CBO projects cost based on INSURANCE ALONE to be 1.38 Billion. They did NOT EXPLICITLY attempt to score other cost reductions that they say are very likely and will be discussed below. We know that from 09 - 17 the cost for Medicare Part D is estimated at 727.3 billion (proving you do know how to go to wiki). We know that in 08 it was 49.3 billion, so add that on and we are at 776. It cost almost identical numbers in 06 and 07 so that's another 100 billion dollars or 876. (which is a bigger number than 727 so no, the difference is NOT "even larger.")

So we know now that over roughly equivalent time periods, but somewhat different time frames, one program is estimated to cost just under 900 billion, the other just under 1.4 billion. So no it is not true that "Medicare Part D is on the order of 2.5 times less in cost than Obamacare over 10 years." If it were, Medicare Part D would have to cost almost half of what it does.

This does NOT include other future cost saving factors that the CBO knows will further reduce costs, nor does it include the cost savings to the government from many fewer people using emergency rooms as healthcare, or increases in some higher level premiums, or the various benefits of increased health coverage on things like missed work hours, or the trimming of annual payment increases to doctors and hospitals by Medicare, or the fact that we've seen after passage the lowering of healthcare costs. The difference between the two programs is that those same cost savings don't apply to Medicare Part D nearly as much because Medicare Part D is limited to a smaller pool of people, while the ACA applies to a larger group. Part D has not been projected to reduce the deficit, ACA has. EVEN if the ACA ends up being neutral or costing a little bit to the deficit, it won't do any more damage to the deficit than Part D has.

So, as usual, you come in here all full of...something, but you have but a surface understanding of it. Yes, there's a reason the the CBO said it would eventually bring down the deficit. In part because of reduced costs from almost 500 billion coming back to the government in the form of penalties and excise taxes, part because of structural changes, part because of lowering health care costs. But hey, you went to wiki, sorta, and got a number, even though it skipped the first three years of the program, and you ignored the CBO when you wanted to because it gave deficit reduction numbers you didn't want (they must be "morons" too). So clearly you must be right.

But what do I know
 
Re: let me help you out


You often carp about people cutting and pasting things from Wikipedia, yet it's ok when you do it?

Who can't do a simple search? In the House, Medicare Part D passed 220-215. Who the hell cares how much sausage making was required to get to the final vote? Most major bills go through this kind of process.

You claim "almost zero votes in the House". This is false. 16 Democrats voted for it including, but not limited to:

Allen Boyd (FL)
Jim Marshall (GA)
David Scott (GA)
Collin Peterson (MN)
Earl Pomeroy (ND)
Brad Carson (OK)
David Wu (OR)
Lincoln Davis (TN)
Ralph Hall (TX)
Charles Stenholm (TX)
Jim Matheson (UT)
Rick Boucher (VA)

So between the House and Senate 27 Democrats voted for this. Last time I checked 27 >> 0. Again, you are being disingenuous. Obamacare was jammed through Congress without a single, solitary Republican vote.
 
Re: so many wrong things


You've got to be kidding. Only someone like you could say "because of reduced costs from almost 500 billion coming back to the government in the form of penalties and excise taxes". Since when do higher taxes and penalties paid by taxpayers result in reduced costs overall? This is just another Ponzi scheme foisted on the folks who do pay taxes for the benefit of those who don't.

Second, there is almost no solid evidence so far that Obamacare has lowered healthcare costs. Everyday, new rates for 2015 come out and nearly everyday the rates are going up, many times in the double digit range. You can't honestly believe that Obamacare is causing healthcare costs to come down for the majority of American citizens. Almost everyone I know has seen and is seeing large rate increases. Many people on employer-sponsored plans are being forced into high deductible plans with HSAs. That's right - higher out-of-pocket costs! But, but, if you want to keep your current insurance you can! No, in many cases you can't.

You really don't understand this stuff as well as you purport.
 
only me?

lol no, the CBO lists those things. I literally pulled that from one of their reports. I didn't come up with it. It's literally in their report. Slightly less than 500 billion dollars will return to the government in the form of penalties and excise taxes.

I didn't say "the ACA lowered healthcare costs" I said that the fact that healthcare costs were lower after the ACA adds to the lowering of the cost of the ACA. IF costs begin to rise then guess what, the ACA will end up costing more, because more subsidies will have to be paid out, if costs continue to lower, then the ACA will end up costing less, because fewer subsidies will have to be paid out. Pretty simple concept.

You started this about how much the government is being cost by the ACA, I pretty much refute all of that, and you switch to things like "but it costs some people more" or "you can't keep your current insurance." So I take that as being you will just switch your argument whenever the current one ain't going so well.
 
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