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The first sign that nothing's changed...

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pastorjoeboggs

Senior
Jan 23, 2005
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Boehner has apparently promised that the House is (again) going to pass a full repeal of the ACA...and Obama has renewed his commitment to unilateral action that, while it may be technically legal, flies in the face of the intent of our governing system.

That kind of thinking is why I don't think I'll ever be able to call myself a Republican or a Democrat, even if there are some issues on which I agree with the party. There is literally NO chance that a bill like that could get signed into law in the next two years. None. And Boehner knows it - so the idea of wasting time and money to write, debate, and pass such a bill is nothing short of dereliction of duty. And there is no reason why executive action has to be the only approach to immigration reform.

If you want to see elements of the law changed (the medical device tax or the mandate), then target those elements. Offer a palatable alternative. Here's an idea - why not offer to forego the grandstanding on the ACA if Obama will agree to at least hold off on any executive action approach to immigration reform? At least both sides would get something they want, right? And even if Obama said no, the Republicans couldn't be blamed for not trying.

Or take the Keystone XL pipeline and couple that with the ACA issues. Tell the President that he can keep the mandate if he approves the pipeline. There are any number of compromises that might move things forward.

But passing useless bills and threatening unilateral action are never going to help with the congressional constipation that is afflicting our country.
 
This is a real facepalm moment. The GOP needs to understand that if it wants to show the US that it is the better party, it needs to actually avoid stupid moves like this.
 
The intent of our governing system?

So, we're not supposed to vote in people to do what we want? Obamacare is unpopular, period. The American people want it repealed. When do we get to repeal it entirely? Never?
 
Re: The intent of our governing system?

They don't want it repealed. That's what you don't understand. Parts of it are VERY popular. And nobody voted people into office to waste time.
 
Re: The intent of our governing system?

Originally posted by beardownboiler:
They don't want it repealed. That's what you don't understand. Parts of it are VERY popular. And nobody voted people into office to waste time.
Click to expand...
I don't know. According to HuffPo's most recent Obamacare poll, 53% viewed it unfavorably, less than 40% favorable. I agree that it probably just needs to be changed/adjusted, and that Republicans are going to be fools and try to repeal it, but one might have an argument to say that popular opinion wants it repealed.
 
49% want it repealed

the rest either like it as is, or want it to be more favorable/liberal. PART of that 53% don't want it repealed because it goes too far, they think it doesn't go far enough.

So no, like most big things in this country, two roughly equivalent left/right viewpoints on it, no real strong majority either way.
 
Re: The intent of our governing system?


Originally posted by GMM:
So, we're not supposed to vote in people to do what we want? Obamacare is unpopular, period. The American people want it repealed. When do we get to repeal it entirely? Never?
Click to expand...
I have not seen any intelligent research that indicates that the people even understand all that is associated with the ACA much less disprove of all of it.

People have demonstrated unhappiness with the mandate in particular, not so much the idea that millions of people who did not previously have access to healthcare now do. So address the mandate and try to get something changed.

Even if the desire is to repeal it completely, it is still a waste to try and do it now. Simple pragmatism tells you that. The ACA is Obama's signature accomplishment, the Congress could send a bill repealing it to the President's desk a thousand times and it will get vetoed a thousand times. Given that, move on to things that you can ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH! In two more years, if the GOP manages to gain control of House, Senate and White House, then have a go at repealing it and demonstrating once and for all that you are a party that gives no f****s about anything but making a profit.
 
Re: 49% want it repealed

Originally posted by qazplm:
the rest either like it as is, or want it to be more favorable/liberal. PART of that 53% don't want it repealed because it goes too far, they think it doesn't go far enough.

So no, like most big things in this country, two roughly equivalent left/right viewpoints on it, no real strong majority either way.
Click to expand...
Yep. I think GMM's a little nuts. In fact, I pointed out to a co-worker yesterday that the law was "too popular" to repeal fully. Even if it's only 40-something% favorable, that's still "too popular" to repeal, IMO. They'll put a bill on his desk trying to - the OpEd from McConnell and Boehner in the WSJ this morning proves that - even though they already know he'll shoot it down. They'll do it just to appease the conservative base. I just hope they don't bark up that tree for too long, and at the least focus on other stuff (Keystone XL, tax reform) first.
 
IMHO it's all WWE so yea they'll do something KNOWING it won't go anywhere because at the end of the day both sides heel to the same master, but the electorate will feel there is a distinct difference.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

This post was edited on 11/6 9:06 PM by kescwi
 
Re: 49% want it repealed. Really?


Originally posted by qazplm:
the rest either like it as is, or want it to be more favorable/liberal. PART of that 53% don't want it repealed because it goes too far, they think it doesn't go far enough.

So no, like most big things in this country, two roughly equivalent left/right viewpoints on it, no real strong majority either way.
Click to expand...
I'd be interested in the source of that poll.

Even the ultra liberal Washington Post has the "unfavorable" at 53%.

RCP average has favorable at 38%, against/opposed at 51%. So, if only 1/3 view if favorably, that's a loser proposition.

"Politifact" (which is anything but) had 38% favorable, 46% unfavorable, but tried to claim 49% didn't want it repealed.
That 49% figure seems to come from the Kaiser Family Foundation. While Kaiser has tried to portray themselves as "centrist", they have a history of immense support for Democrats, with as much as 98% of their dollars going to liberal democrats. Oops. So much for credibility.

The American people overwhelming do not support the radical leftist takeover of our health care system, as evidenced by poll after poll. Socialists and statists have tried to use statistics to cover the stench of this legislation, but the people in general are not buying it.

The November, 2014, elections are proof positive.
 
How about this?

The first bill that deals with Obamacare that's sent to the President would repeal all waivers, exemptions, and delays.

Would love to see him veto that.
 
Is that master Wall Street, banksters, what have you?

Honest question. I've seen my home town area pumped dry. I don't like it but at the same time feel powerless against it.
 
Anything financial, Wall Street, banks, insurance, they are in control today, like manufacturing was until the 70's. Sadly though we still act like its the 60's.

Every home town is being pumped dry, middle class areas are struggling to stay afloat, I see it everyday, Interest and insurance are the same wealth extraction that taxes are.
 
Let me ask you something. What would you do if you were dealing with an @$$hat like this?

Obama, after the Republican won the day on Tuesday, said he wanted to sit down on Friday with Congressional leadership, including likely new Congressional leadership to find "common ground" on issues.

The very next day he then says he's going to use executive orders on immigration reform. There seems to be no reasoning with this guy and his advisors. WTH?
 
sd .. You are right, you can't deal with a person like Obama directly. I think the best way to deal with him now that the Repubs have both houses is to take the high road and avoid going toe to toe in the press, etc. unfortunately they are not doing that. I think that could play right into Obama's hands because the Prez will always be given more air time by the press for rebuttal, etc. they should not try to repeal Obamacare but change it dramatically one piece at a time that will amount to the same thing as a repeal. That way they can claim that they have worked with the Prez while getting the results that the country needs. Unfortunately I think the battle lines have been drawn for a long time and will be difficult to modify at this point.
 
First, I would remember that I know nothing of the person apart from the public image that is distorted - for better and worse - by the media...and not call him an asshat. (Though, going by your definition, the same term could be applied to Boehner who talks about wanting to get stuff done across the aisle but then preaches about repealing the ACA when there's no chance that will work).

Part of politics - on both sides - is grandstanding. I get that...which is why, the more that I think about it, the more I think Boehner probably has to at least send the repeal once in order to appease his base. It's also why Obama has to keep talking a hard game, to appease what few supporters he has left (who are nearly all hardliners in his own party).

There is no problem when it's just words back and forth. It will become a problem if and when Obama actually does it.

Finally, I would ask you a question - what would you have Obama do? Should he stop trying to do anything that he believes is right and within his authority until that meeting and common ground? Should he stop governing until then?
 
pastorjoe,

You can't be that blind. This isn't just about words. Obama tries to use executive orders, including the one I referenced about immigration reform, to further the Democratic party's objectives. I'll make it simple to understand - more illegals backdoored into the country = more likely Democratic voters in the future.

He's not doing this "immigration reform" stuff for the good of America, that's for damn sure.

"Should he stop governing until then?" Obama is not America's dictator. He's not America's king. He's supposed to be the President. He's supposed to do what's right for all Americans, not just Progressive Americans who agree with him. He has shown almost NO ability to compromise on anything.

Good Presidents, like Reagan and Clinton, worked with the other party and both got a lot of things done in a bipartisan fashion. Obama only seems to ever want to do things his way. "We won. Get over it!" And when he doesn't get his way he whines like a little biatch.
 
Re: 49% want it repealed. Really?

You have to recognize a few things.

1. Not everyone really knows what the law is. This is brought up elsewhere in this thread, but if you poll the individual aspects of the law, they poll much better collectively than when you call it the full law. This supports the finding that people don't understand it.

2. "unfavorable" does not mean they support Republicans repealing it. "Unfavorable" lumps in people who don't like it in general and people who don't think it goes far enough. If a poll doesn't break down that difference, it's not a great poll. Because the people who don't think it goes far enough would keep the law over have Republicans repeal it and do nothing.

3. Many polls that I've seen (and not "liberal" sponsored polls) show a higher % of people do not want to repeal it vs. the favorability ratings. This would support #2 above that just because someone may not fully approve it, that doesn't mean they want it repealed.

For example, a CNN poll a few months ago that really went into very specific details found…

-Only 12% found the law to be a success, yet 61% wanted to leave it alone or make small adjustments to it.

-Only 20% want it to be repealed completely but not replaced. About the same amount said it should be repealed and replaced with a different system (which in theory could be more liberal as well).

So you can sit there and find polling results to support either side, but this isn't really a black and white issue. As long as people, including politicians, treat it as such, it's not going to be useful.
 
Originally posted by SDBoiler1:
pastorjoe,

You can't be that blind. This isn't just about words. Obama tries to use executive orders, including the one I referenced about immigration reform, to further the Democratic party's objectives. I'll make it simple to understand - more illegals backdoored into the country = more likely Democratic voters in the future.

He's not doing this "immigration reform" stuff for the good of America, that's for damn sure.

"Should he stop governing until then?" Obama is not America's dictator. He's not America's king. He's supposed to be the President. He's supposed to do what's right for all Americans, not just Progressive Americans who agree with him. He has shown almost NO ability to compromise on anything.

Good Presidents, like Reagan and Clinton, worked with the other party and both got a lot of things done in a bipartisan fashion. Obama only seems to ever want to do things his way. "We won. Get over it!" And when he doesn't get his way he whines like a little biatch.
Click to expand...
I repeat my question - what would you have him do? Asked another way, what other recourse does he have? There is no hope for working across the aisle when the other party sets absurdly impossible standards as the baseline for talks (i.e. trying to tie a repeal of a signature bill into budget measures). The GOP has refused to even try to work with the President on anything reasonable. Granted, that attitude certainly is due at least in part to Obama's approach to the early part of his first term and the way the ACA was passed. Still, though, it takes two parties to compromise.

Also, I can repeat back part of your post. The GOP is not America's dictator or king. They, too, are supposed to do what's right for all Americans, not just those who agree with them. But they don't. Take Congressman Rokita, for example. Rokita lives in and represents a constituency that benefits greatly from the growth of green energy. Yet he steadfastly votes against anything that might help green energy. Why is that? Because he's doing what's right for the oil companies that give him money. Rokita also takes pride in the fact that he voted to shut down the government - PRIDE! That's like a doctor failing to successfully perform surgery and subsequently being proud of the corpse. And he's not alone. Obama takes pride in refusing to negotiate so that things can move forward. Also a dereliction of duty.

The problem is that people disagree on what's right for all Americans. I, for example, think making sure that people have access to affordable health insurance is "right for all Americans." I also think that raising minimum wage so that people can afford to live without food stamps and other government programs is "right for all Americans." I think cutting taxes for the wealthiest portion of the country, when trickle-down economics clearly doesn't work, is not "right for all Americans." I think getting the government out of the marriage business is "right for all Americans." I'm guessing from your posts that you would disagree with every single one of those. Which means, of course, that a politician that was doing what I believed was "right for all Americans" would be in for your ire.
 
Well there's a newsflash

GMM says "The American people want [Obamacare] repealed."

Never mind that that is a completely fabricated assertion. GMM says it, so it must be so!

At least we got our Friday Funny.
 
Re: 49% want it repealed. Really?


Originally posted by lbodel:
You have to recognize a few things.

1. Not everyone really knows what the law is. This is brought up elsewhere in this thread, but if you poll the individual aspects of the law, they poll much better collectively than when you call it the full law. This supports the finding that people don't understand it.

2. "unfavorable" does not mean they support Republicans repealing it. "Unfavorable" lumps in people who don't like it in general and people who don't think it goes far enough. If a poll doesn't break down that difference, it's not a great poll. Because the people who don't think it goes far enough would keep the law over have Republicans repeal it and do nothing.

3. Many polls that I've seen (and not "liberal" sponsored polls) show a higher % of people do not want to repeal it vs. the favorability ratings. This would support #2 above that just because someone may not fully approve it, that doesn't mean they want it repealed.

For example, a CNN poll a few months ago that really went into very specific details found…

-Only 12% found the law to be a success, yet 61% wanted to leave it alone or make small adjustments to it.

-Only 20% want it to be repealed completely but not replaced. About the same amount said it should be repealed and replaced with a different system (which in theory could be more liberal as well).

So you can sit there and find polling results to support either side, but this isn't really a black and white issue. As long as people, including politicians, treat it as such, it's not going to be useful.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've recognized all that.

But, thanks for the follow up.

Regardless, it's a wildly unpopular piece of partisan legislation, passed without anyone reading it, which has led to millions of people losing the coverage they like and want, without addressing the true issues of health care challenges.

And I don't see attribution to your statistics, which cast serious doubt to the validity of your claims.
 
Re: Well there's a newsflash


Originally posted by db:
GMM says "The American people want [Obamacare] repealed."

Never mind that that is a completely fabricated assertion. GMM says it, so it must be so!

At least we got our Friday Funny.
Click to expand...
Of course, db and his leftist friends want socialized medicine, which prompts him to post unsubstantiated claims.

The Friday Funny from db.

You continue to define yourself, db.
 
Addressing the point on "illegal alien", "undocumented immigrant" et al issue. The sticking point is whether to secure the border FIRST then do something later about immigration. Obama has shown with the ACA that he wants his points done first like immigration addressed first THEN the border. Heads will butt!! I can assure you living in Texas it is a major problem that will only get worse. Heck, I don't have any answers. When 90% of the radio stations in Brownsville, Harlingen and McAllen are all Spanish you can see the many cultural problems not to mention the educational problems that loom large when so many don't speak English. Tack on to that 75% of the babies born are Medicaid just WHAT do you do? Doing NOTHING is a recipe for disaster and not securing the border won't be pretty.
This post was edited on 11/9 9:44 PM by threeeputtt
 
Originally posted by kescwi:
Anything financial, Wall Street, banks, insurance, they are in control today, like manufacturing was until the 70's. Sadly though we still act like its the 60's.

Every home town is being pumped dry, middle class areas are struggling to stay afloat, I see it everyday, Interest and insurance are the same wealth extraction that taxes are.
Click to expand...
... and yet, the liberal Dims have been in charge of the meltdown.

Real income for the middle class has taken a direct hit under dear leader, the empty suit. "The One."

The big blue democrat petri dishes have descended into utter chaos and hell, with rampant crime, poverty, and hopelessness.

Yet, the search for nirvana continues for the true believers.
 
And you call other people "lost."

I seem to recall the IRS sending out checks to taxpayers to get them to spend, or in reality pay their mortgage, in the last year of Bush, I know residential construction down here started slowing 2007 and I'm confident the "meltdown" happened in September before Obama was even elected with the initial bailouts and TARP all coming under GWB. Crazy how that leftist Obama continued the same policies that favored finance over main street just like his neocon predecessor Bush.
 
Originally posted by kescwi:
And you call other people "lost."

I seem to recall the IRS sending out checks to taxpayers to get them to spend, or in reality pay their mortgage, in the last year of Bush, I know residential construction down here started slowing 2007 and I'm confident the "meltdown" happened in September before Obama was even elected with the initial bailouts and TARP all coming under GWB. Crazy how that leftist Obama continued the same policies that favored finance over main street just like his neocon predecessor Bush.
Click to expand...
Good grief. You radicals talk incessantly about how bad Bush was. And he's still in your head. And you talk about him like he's the gold standard. I don't care about Bush. He's gone.

You big government types never can admit how much the volumes and volumes of regulations can affect businesses. Those regulations damn near killed us, and continue to do so.

Obama is a loser. He's the empty suit that was paraded around the country in 2008. He has no strategy that will support economic growth. Yet you cannot let go of the idea that he's the messiah.

Yes, you're lost.
 
You said: " Dude, you're lost. You think it's R vs D. That's a loser's position. Here's what you don't understand: I don't give a d@mn about the R ... OR the D. I care about right vs wrong."

And then you said: "I'll support a politician if he/she has a D or an R if they're going to uphold the constitution."

But now: "... and yet, the liberal Dims have been in charge of the meltdown... The big blue democrat petri dishes have descended into utter chaos and hell, with rampant crime, poverty, and hopelessness."

Guess you're a loser.
 
A couple points.

Obama has NOT made any effort to work with the Republicans, nor really with the Democrats in Congress either. He feels that he was elected to RULE the country and what he says should be the law of the land. He's forced the ACA down the nation's throat (with Reid and Pelosi), and it did NOT have a single opposition vote, nor does it have the support of the majority of the people.

After he won reelection, he said, "Elections have consequences.", when he was approached by the Republicans to work on some bipartisan legislation. then he dug in his heels. His idea of compromise is - Let's do it my way. Surprisingly, the media portrays the Republicans as being stubborn obstructionists, yet they give Obama a pass. Hmmmm, no bias there.

Of course, the media also lambastes the Republicans in the House for being the party of NO, yet there is little, if any mention of the 370+ House bills that have died on Harry Reid's desk. We've all seen Obama say numerous times, that if the House sends him some legislation on any one of several hot button issues, he'd be willing to consider it. Do you really believe he doesn't know that Reid is the obstructionist, or do you think Obama may be an opportunist?

Can you blame the Republicans for being hesitant to work with a guy who lies incessantly (you can't trust him) and continues to throw them under the bus at every turn? Then he aggravates the situation by bragging about his pen and his phone.

My question is, if immigration reform is so critically important, that it has to be done by executive action, before the end of this year, why didn't Obama press to have the problem fixed in his first two years in office, when he had a super majority? It was one of the issues he campaigned on in his first Presidential campaign and he promised it would be done during his first year. Apparently, it's more important to Obama as a political issue, than it is as an accomplishment.

A comment about immigration reform. We really don't need immigration reform, nearly as much as we need immigration enforcement. We can write all the laws in the world, but if they're not enforced, it's a waste of time. Without securing the border and exercising closer control on student visas, we'll never get ahead of the problem.

BTW Tip O'Neill promised Reagan, that if he signed the authorization granting amnesty to illegals, he would secure the border. Reagan signed and O'Neill forgot. Don't misunderstand, BOTH parties are guilty of creating the mess we have now.
 
Re: Typical


When you're a radical, everyone else looks like a radical. It cracks me up that he thinks you and I are "radicals," yet he is just "following the Constitution."
 
Re: Typical


Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:

When you're a radical, everyone else looks like a radical. It cracks me up that he thinks you and I are "radicals," yet he is just "following the Constitution."
Click to expand...
Yeah... we should just ignore the constitution.

You're fighting the wrong battle. Your obsession is duly noted. Misguided, but duly noted.
 
Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
You said: " Dude, you're lost. You think it's R vs D. That's a loser's position. Here's what you don't understand: I don't give a d@mn about the R ... OR the D. I care about right vs wrong."

And then you said: "I'll support a politician if he/she has a D or an R if they're going to uphold the constitution."

But now: "... and yet, the liberal Dims have been in charge of the meltdown... The big blue democrat petri dishes have descended into utter chaos and hell, with rampant crime, poverty, and hopelessness."

Guess you're a loser.
Click to expand...
You're really having too much trouble with this.

One does not exclude the other.

You really can't be that dense. Or, maybe you can.

Try to set aside your irrational obsession with me, and engage your brain.
 
Re: Typical

Oh my, this comical. I don't know if it's radical, ignorance or a screw loose but wow, do you laugh or cry? I just don't know anymore.
 
Originally posted by Purdue85:

Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
What irrational obsession is that, exactly? Can't wait to hear this...
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
It's become clear, you really don't want to understand. All you want to do is (crap) all over the forum, obsessing over what I write.
Click to expand...
Thaaaaaaaaat's funny. Tell me another.

I crap on what you write because most of your posts resemble the inside of an outdoor commode at a football game: full of piss and vinegar, nonsense vomited everywhere, with a few piles of shit thrown in for good measure. Really, I'm just piling on the crap that's already there.

It is surprising that you can't see the hypocrisy of what you post, and that you think that being radically conservative is any more useful or righteous that being radically liberal. There is no use for people of either ideology, IMO. Guys like you and GMM do more harm to a good cause than any liberal does. You make the rest of us conservatives look like whacko idiots right along with you.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
Originally posted by Purdue85:

Originally posted by gr8indoorsman:
What irrational obsession is that, exactly? Can't wait to hear this...
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
It's become clear, you really don't want to understand. All you want to do is (crap) all over the forum, obsessing over what I write.
Click to expand...
Thaaaaaaaaat's funny. Tell me another.

I crap on what you write because most of your posts resemble the inside of an outdoor commode at a football game: full of piss and vinegar, nonsense vomited everywhere, with a few piles of shit thrown in for good measure. Really, I'm just piling on the crap that's already there.

It is surprising that you can't see the hypocrisy of what you post, and that you think that being radically conservative is any more useful or righteous that being radically liberal. There is no use for people of either ideology, IMO. Guys like you and GMM do more harm to a good cause than any liberal does. You make the rest of us conservatives look like whacko idiots right along with you.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
What an intolerant point of view.


No wonder we have politicians and policymakers thinking the American public is stupid, and taking advantage of said "stupidity".

Your sheer hatred of anything posted by anyone with a POV different from yours throws you into a seizure. I don't read anything "conservative" about what you post. You don't want to "conserve" the constitution. Instead, you mock, berate and belittle those who stand up for this constitutional republic. Congrats on that.

"(I) do more harm to a good cause than any liberal does." What horse(crap). You mock yourself with such ridiculous B-S.
 
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