The biggest question

[indy35]

We go around and around with all different subjects relating to the various investigations today. I think we’ve been ignoring the biggest question.

Why does Russia think the best way to hurt the United States and our standing in the world is to elect Republicans? Discuss...

 

[SDBoiler1]

We go around and around with all different subjects relating to the various investigations today. I think we’ve been ignoring the biggest question.

Why does Russia think the best way to hurt the United States and our standing in the world is to elect Republicans? Discuss...

This is a dumb take. Russia is an equal opportunity supporter. Whoever they feel helps their cause they will support whether on the left or the right.

 

[Scheffler90]

This is a dumb take. Russia is an equal opportunity supporter. Whoever they feel helps their cause they will support whether on the left or the right.

I tend to agree with SD on this in that its very much subject to change. For decades, the KGB saw the left as its most logical ideological ally. Western leftist supported Moscow-backed revolutions across the globe and the supression of NATO/US military cooperation on many fronts.

Today it has flipped as the GOP has evolved into a more protectionist/nationalist party with greater skepticism towards NATO, CIA, and other institutions that stand in the way of Moscow's ambitions. That said, it can yet flip again...and at some point, probably will. Remember the Russian IC refers to westerners who parrot Moscow's talking points as "useful idiots". It's a relationship not of equals, but guile-fueled exploitation.

 

[SDBoiler1]

I tend to agree with SD on this in that its very much subject to change. For decades, the KGB saw the left as its most logical ideological ally. Western leftist supported Moscow-backed revolutions across the globe and the supression of NATO/US military cooperation on many fronts.

Today it has flipped as the GOP has evolved into a more protectionist/nationalist party with greater skepticism towards NATO, CIA, and other institutions that stand in the way of Moscow's ambitions. That said, it can yet flip again...and at some point, probably will. Remember the Russian IC refers to westerners who parrot Moscow's talking points as "useful idiots". It's a relationship not of equals, but guile-fueled exploitation.

Well put, Scheff.

 

[hunkgolden]

Why does Russia think the best way to hurt the United States and our standing in the world is to elect Republicans? Discuss...

How do we know that the Russians didn't try just as vigorously to access RNC info? Its possible they attempted to access damning information on both parties but were only able to access the DNC server and found a treasure chest of information. If the DNC had better cyber security and their leaders didn't write emails talking of how they were going to screw Bernie over then there is nothing to discuss.

 

[BuilderBob6]

I tend to agree with SD on this in that its very much subject to change. For decades, the KGB saw the left as its most logical ideological ally. Western leftist supported Moscow-backed revolutions across the globe and the supression of NATO/US military cooperation on many fronts.

Today it has flipped as the GOP has evolved into a more protectionist/nationalist party with greater skepticism towards NATO, CIA, and other institutions that stand in the way of Moscow's ambitions. That said, it can yet flip again...and at some point, probably will. Remember the Russian IC refers to westerners who parrot Moscow's talking points as "useful idiots". It's a relationship not of equals, but guile-fueled exploitation.

There's no doubt Moscow will work with the party and President that gives them the best chance to achieve there goals.

But in the here and now, that's the "republicans" and Donald Trump. They are saying it clearly and unapologetically. I'm fairly certain Trump could dismiss this as Russian fake news and his tribe would believe it.

http://www.juliadavisnews.com/artic...paganda-gold-russia-revels-in-summit-victory/

 

[Scheffler90]

There's no doubt Moscow will work with the party and President that gives them the best chance to achieve there goals.

But in the here and now, that's the "republicans" and Donald Trump. They are saying it clearly and unapologetically. I'm fairly certain Trump could dismiss this as Russian fake news and his tribe would believe it.

http://www.juliadavisnews.com/artic...paganda-gold-russia-revels-in-summit-victory/

Well outside of the most devoted faitful, I dont think there's any doubt Russia sees the GOP as their best partner in the US...right now. But again, that could change. Remember just 2 elections ago the Dem incumbant chided his Republican challenger's harsh stance on Russia by joking "The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back."

The question for the future will be "does this pro-Russia stance outlive Trump in the GOP"? What if they nominate an anti-Russian hawk and the Dems put forward Bernie (who took his honemoon in Moscow)? The point is the Russians are not married to any one party, they just search for the one who, at the moment, is gullible enough to buy their BS.

 

[Purdue97]

We go around and around with all different subjects relating to the various investigations today. I think we’ve been ignoring the biggest question.

Why does Russia think the best way to hurt the United States and our standing in the world is to elect Republicans? Discuss...

I think you have been ignoring the biggest questions. You come on here and spew nothing but pro left/anti right thoughts constantly.

Also, rephrase your question-

Why does Russia allegedly think the best way to help Russia and its standing in the world is to elect Republicans?

Putin is not dumb. Either is the leader of NK. They know the USA and its military, and its standing in the world is not going anywhere. What they want is for their countries to be looked on in high regard as well.

Russia for whatever reasons(s) allegedly decided on Trump over Clinton. Part of that is Clinton made herself an easy target with an unsecured server. Target of opportunity. Do not think Russia was played for that information in the dossier and they did not know who was paying for it. They knew it would create discord.

Also, a lot of that likely comes from realizing after what Clinton gave them, and what the Russians gave the Clintons and her under secretary, there was going to be a ton of speculation about the relationships. Obama, another democrat, all but bent over backwards for Putin/Russia. Russia knew they out played US Intelligence agencies and its leaders would try to save face. Russia knows that for democrats to save face they need to try to start acting tough. And Clinton would have been a wild card then. Time to start anew and see what if anything one can get out of Trump.

Also remember, it was Russia that was behind a lot of the anti Trump rallies that many attended. There are reports of Russia wanting to interfere in this election, but no specifics. A lot of this instead of pro Republican/pro Democrat, or vice versa, is just to create and sow disruption in US politics/society.

 

[Purdue97]

Well outside of the most devoted faitful, I dont think there's any doubt Russia sees the GOP as their best partner in the US...right now. But again, that could change. Remember just 2 elections ago the Dem incumbant chided his Republican challenger's harsh stance on Russia by joking "The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back."

The question for the future will be "does this pro-Russia stance outlive Trump in the GOP"? What if they nominate an anti-Russian hawk and the Dems put forward Bernie (who took his honemoon in Moscow)? The point is the Russians are not married to any one party, they just search for the one who, at the moment, is gullible enough to buy their BS.

That is because Russia milked the Democrats for all they were worth the last 8 years, played US intel, and to save face they know Democrats would have to start acting tough, which they are now trying to do. Democrats mocked Romney for wanting to be tough on Russia, did nothing on Crimea or Syria, gave up 20% of Uranium, donated(gave) huge money to Clintons and her under secretary. They knew if Clinton was elected this would have turned into hell with all of the scrutiny this would have come under and by default Clinton turns into a hard ass. She would have no choice. major sanctions a given.

Gullible is not the right word yet. The Russians just know that due to the majority of the Obama Administration, Dems would not be for sale as much anymore. The best one to make deals with, would have a more open attitude would be Republicans, but that does not mean they are gullible. Gullible fits Obama and his Admin, time will tell if it fits Trump.

 

[BuilderBob6]

That is because Russia milked the Democrats for all they were worth the last 8 years, played US intel, and to save face they know Democrats would have to start acting tough, which they are now trying to do. Democrats mocked Romney for wanting to be tough on Russia, did nothing on Crimea or Syria, gave up 20% of Uranium, donated(gave) huge money to Clintons and her under secretary. They knew if Clinton was elected this would have turned into hell with all of the scrutiny this would have come under and by default Clinton turns into a hard ass. She would have no choice. major sanctions a given.

Gullible is not the right word yet. The Russians just know that due to the majority of the Obama Administration, Dems would not be for sale as much anymore. The best one to make deals with, would have a more open attitude would be Republicans, but that does not mean they are gullible. Gullible fits Obama and his Admin, time will tell if it fits Trump.

Lol. If all that is true, and I don't agree it is, it sounds like Russia is really good at this geopolitics thing and working the American political system.

So in what world is it a great idea that our president, with absolutely zero foreign policy experience, sit down in private meeting with the 3D chess master and make policy agreements? The chess master who is intent on expanding his borders (Crimea and an attempt in Montenegro) while our President has publicly questioned the need for NATO and talked about not going to war over Montenegro. The former KGB officer who has had opposition leaders killed. The leader who openly supports Assad of Syria......a place the president has talked about removing our troops from. Meanwhile our president has to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit what his own intelligence agencies have saying for his entire term.
I could go on about how Trump has continuously kissed the ass of this murderous thug but my point should be clear. Right now I could give a rat's ass about what happened in the past and all the theories.....which sound a hell of a lot like justification of the present.....nor do I care about what party the Russians will try to play in the future. The president is making deals behind closed doors with a despot he clearly admires. As Americans we should all be focused on that.

Since no one wants to talk about it, I will again post the link of the Russian press talking about all the ways Putin bent Trump over at the summit.
"In the Russian state media, Trump is portrayed as the most pro-Russian politician in the United States, willing to make innumerable concessions and fulfill Russia’s long-range goal of destroying the transatlantic unity."

http://www.juliadavisnews.com/artic...paganda-gold-russia-revels-in-summit-victory/

 

[SDBoiler1]

Lol. If all that is true, and I don't agree it is, it sounds like Russia is really good at this geopolitics thing and working the American political system.

So in what world is it a great idea that our president, with absolutely zero foreign policy experience, sit down in private meeting with the 3D chess master and make policy agreements? The chess master who is intent on expanding his borders (Crimea and an attempt in Montenegro) while our President has publicly questioned the need for NATO and talked about not going to war over Montenegro. The former KGB officer who has had opposition leaders killed. The leader who openly supports Assad of Syria......a place the president has talked about removing our troops from. Meanwhile our president has to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit what his own intelligence agencies have saying for his entire term.
I could go on about how Trump has continuously kissed the ass of this murderous thug but my point should be clear. Right now I could give a rat's ass about what happened in the past and all the theories.....which sound a hell of a lot like justification of the present.....nor do I care about what party the Russians will try to play in the future. The president is making deals behind closed doors with a despot he clearly admires. As Americans we should all be focused on that.

Since no one wants to talk about it, I will again post the link of the Russian press talking about all the ways Putin bent Trump over at the summit.
"In the Russian state media, Trump is portrayed as the most pro-Russian politician in the United States, willing to make innumerable concessions and fulfill Russia’s long-range goal of destroying the transatlantic unity."

http://www.juliadavisnews.com/artic...paganda-gold-russia-revels-in-summit-victory/

What do you think the Russian press is going to say? That Putin got worked over by Trump? Of course they will say Putin is working Trump. I’d expect no different. The Russian government mostly runs their media. Dissent is squelched.

And if you’re willing to ignore past history you’re a fool.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

What do you think the Russian press is going to say? That Putin got worked over by Trump? Of course they will say Putin is working Trump. I’d expect no different. The Russian government mostly runs their media. Dissent is squelched.

And if you’re willing to ignore past history you’re a fool.

Yeah, but Putin appears to actually be working over Trump.

 

[BuilderBob6]

Yeah, but Putin appears to actually be working over Trump.

If it were only the Russians saying it........

 

[Purdue97]

Lol. If all that is true, and I don't agree it is, it sounds like Russia is really good at this geopolitics thing and working the American political system.

So in what world is it a great idea that our president, with absolutely zero foreign policy experience, sit down in private meeting with the 3D chess master and make policy agreements? The chess master who is intent on expanding his borders (Crimea and an attempt in Montenegro) while our President has publicly questioned the need for NATO and talked about not going to war over Montenegro. The former KGB officer who has had opposition leaders killed. The leader who openly supports Assad of Syria......a place the president has talked about removing our troops from. Meanwhile our president has to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit what his own intelligence agencies have saying for his entire term.
I could go on about how Trump has continuously kissed the ass of this murderous thug but my point should be clear. Right now I could give a rat's ass about what happened in the past and all the theories.....which sound a hell of a lot like justification of the present.....nor do I care about what party the Russians will try to play in the future. The president is making deals behind closed doors with a despot he clearly admires. As Americans we should all be focused on that.

Since no one wants to talk about it, I will again post the link of the Russian press talking about all the ways Putin bent Trump over at the summit.
"In the Russian state media, Trump is portrayed as the most pro-Russian politician in the United States, willing to make innumerable concessions and fulfill Russia’s long-range goal of destroying the transatlantic unity."

http://www.juliadavisnews.com/artic...paganda-gold-russia-revels-in-summit-victory/

So which is it-

Are they really good at it, which you say you do not think they are, and there is nothing to worry about, which makes the Dems look really bad, or is Putin a 3D chess master? Are they not good at it but completely worked Obama and his Admin over, which makes them look even more incompetent, or they are good at it?

Personally, think it is a mixed bag, they have had successes but mostly failure over the years. Years from 2009 to 2016 were pretty clear wins for Russia, which is a turning point.

I think Russians are good at geo politics and spying. I also think China is good at spying and hacking and stealing military secrets. I think the rest of the world is better and less tolerant of poor agreements than the USA.

Like I have said time and again, nobody cares about the past 6-8 years, but they care now, and accuse Trump of doing stuff that the last Administration actually did. That is called projection.

And what about the Russian press? That is basically Putin talking. And Putin says he did not hack or try to interfere in American elections as well. Things get really dicey when one starts to choose what they believe and do not believe from a certain source to affirm one's beliefs.

Anyway, did any of these actual agreements come into play yet? I read the article, and it condemns Trump for saying what he said publicly about US Intel, which is nothing knew.

It also says that certain arrangements Putin floated were denied a few days later. It also says that the Ukranian referendum was debunked. And Trump fought with NATO because he wants them to both pay their fair share and supply combat troops, just not be an Admin organization. If one falls for the prop Putin made that is on them-that is just really obvious it was done one purpose. The way people here and in the news are acting it is as if all of this and more was already done.

 

[BuilderBob6]

What do you think the Russian press is going to say? That Putin got worked over by Trump? Of course they will say Putin is working Trump. I’d expect no different. The Russian government mostly runs their media. Dissent is squelched.

And if you’re willing to ignore past history you’re a fool.

Like nationalist leaders throughout history that have lied to their people, attacked the free press, embraced autocratic rulers, blamed the opposition for everything wrong, demonized immigrants and portrayed them as criminals, believed the legislature should change the laws to benefit him, endorsed police brutality, appointed family members to his government........I'm sure I've missed a few.

What does history tell us about leaders who act this way?

 

[SDBoiler1]

Like nationalist leaders throughout history that have lied to their people, attacked the free press, embraced autocratic rulers, blamed the opposition for everything wrong, demonized immigrants and portrayed them as criminals, believed the legislature should change the laws to benefit him, endorsed police brutality, appointed family members to his government........I'm sure I've missed a few.

What does history tell us about leaders who act this way?

Oh yes, Trump is obviously Hitler reincarnated.

 

[BuilderBob6]

So which is it-

Are they really good at it, which you say you do not think they are, and there is nothing to worry about, which makes the Dems look really bad, or is Putin a 3D chess master? Are they not good at it but completely worked Obama and his Admin over, which makes them look even more incompetent, or they are good at it?

Personally, think it is a mixed bag, they have had successes but mostly failure over the years. Years from 2009 to 2016 were pretty clear wins for Russia, which is a turning point.

I think Russians are good at geo politics and spying. I also think China is good at spying and hacking and stealing military secrets. I think the rest of the world is better and less tolerant of poor agreements than the USA.

Like I have said time and again, nobody cares about the past 6-8 years, but they care now, and accuse Trump of doing stuff that the last Administration actually did. That is called projection.

And what about the Russian press? That is basically Putin talking. And Putin says he did not hack or try to interfere in American elections as well. Things get really dicey when one starts to choose what they believe and do not believe from a certain source to affirm one's beliefs.

Anyway, did any of these actual agreements come into play yet? I read the article, and it condemns Trump for saying what he said publicly about US Intel, which is nothing knew.

It also says that certain arrangements Putin floated were denied a few days later. It also says that the Ukranian referendum was debunked. And Trump fought with NATO because he wants them to both pay their fair share and supply combat troops, just not be an Admin organization. If one falls for the prop Putin made that is on them-that is just really obvious it was done one purpose. The way people here and in the news are acting it is as if all of this and more was already done.

I didn't say the Russians weren't good at it.......I said nothing of the sort. They are really, really good at it. That's why we don't need an amateur doing the negotiations.

I said I disagreed with your version of events.......which were just your opinion, not facts (Dems acting tough to save face etc). Obama was trying a reset, as all of you have said. It was the wrong policy, it didn't work. Bush tried it, same result. Looks like history repeating itself once again.

If the Russians had interfered in the election in 2008 or 2012 to the same degree as they did in 2016 it would have been a big story and the public would have heard about it........especially if Obama had spoken highly at every turn about Putin and denied there was interference. When you compare the two time periods you act like circumstances were the same. They aren't, at all. Obama and Putin did not like each other, at all. It's not projection, except when you try and equate the two.

" Putin says he did not hack or try to interfere in American elections as well. Things get really dicey when one starts to choose what they believe and do not believe from a certain source to affirm one's beliefs." Are you serious with this shit? Call me crazy, I choose not to believe Putin over our IC? Is that an extreme position? Are you saying, like Trump, that you believe Putin over our IC?

"Did any of these actual agreements come into play yet?" Lol. Well it happened a week ago so I'm not sure that using that as an argument at this point makes much sense.

I personally see no pressing need for Trump to meet Putin twice in a few months........but if all you think there is, then this admin should start a diplomatic initiative. The SOS and state department should be doing all the legwork. But this president thinks he's better at deal making than the professionals.........and he loves the big stage with Putin......for whatever reason.

 

[BuilderBob6]

Oh yes, Trump is obviously Hitler reincarnated.

Dude you're the one that is saying ignoring history is foolish. I'm not making comparisons.

 

[SDBoiler1]

I didn't say the Russians weren't good at it.......I said nothing of the sort. They are really, really good at it. That's why we don't need an amateur doing the negotiations.

I said I disagreed with your version of events.......which were just your opinion, not facts (Dems acting tough to save face etc). Obama was trying a reset, as all of you have said. It was the wrong policy, it didn't work. Bush tried it, same result. Looks like history repeating itself once again.

If the Russians had interfered in the election in 2008 or 2012 to the same degree as they did in 2016 it would have been a big story and the public would have heard about it........especially if Obama had spoken highly at every turn about Putin and denied there was interference. When you compare the two time periods you act like circumstances were the same. They aren't, at all. Obama and Putin did not like each other, at all. It's not projection, except when you try and equate the two.

" Putin says he did not hack or try to interfere in American elections as well. Things get really dicey when one starts to choose what they believe and do not believe from a certain source to affirm one's beliefs." Are you serious with this shit? Call me crazy, I choose not to believe Putin over our IC? Is that an extreme position? Are you saying, like Trump, that you believe Putin over our IC?

"Did any of these actual agreements come into play yet?" Lol. Well it happened a week ago so I'm not sure that using that as an argument at this point makes much sense.

I personally see no pressing need for Trump to meet Putin twice in a few months........but if all you think there is, then this admin should start a diplomatic initiative. The SOS and state department should be doing all the legwork. But this president thinks he's better at deal making than the professionals.........and he loves the big stage with Putin......for whatever reason.

You have no idea what kind of prep work is done prior to these meetings. Quit acting like you do.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

You have no idea what kind of prep work is done prior to these meetings. Quit acting like you do.

I have a pretty good idea that Trump himself doesn’t do much at all, which is why I’d never want him in a room alone with Putin. Ever.

 

[BuilderBob6]

You have no idea what kind of prep work is done prior to these meetings. Quit acting like you do.

lol. I didn't even say that. I said nothing about prep for the summit. I'm talking about something totally separate. You bring nothing.

Since you brought it up, between the cutbacks Tillerson made, those forced out and those that have resigned, and infilled positions......the State department is a shell of it's former self. But it certainly fits with Trump's view of the world. If there are so many problems with Russia that two summits in a few months are needed, why is the department so understaffed?

Trump thinks he can solve all our problems overseas all by himself. Don't worry.

 

[SDBoiler1]

lol. I didn't even say that. I said nothing about prep for the summit. I'm talking about something totally separate. You bring nothing.

Since you brought it up, between the cutbacks Tillerson made, those forced out and those that have resigned, and infilled positions......the State department is a shell of it's former self. But it certainly fits with Trump's view of the world. If there are so many problems with Russia that two summits in a few months are needed, why is the department so understaffed?

Trump thinks he can solve all our problems overseas all by himself. Don't worry.

Tillerson isn’t running DoS anymore idiot. Pompeo is. The people carping about this were mostly Obama hires anyway. Not a big loss if you ask me.

 

[Purdue97]

I didn't say the Russians weren't good at it.......I said nothing of the sort. They are really, really good at it. That's why we don't need an amateur doing the negotiations.

I said I disagreed with your version of events.......which were just your opinion, not facts (Dems acting tough to save face etc). Obama was trying a reset, as all of you have said. It was the wrong policy, it didn't work. Bush tried it, same result. Looks like history repeating itself once again.

If the Russians had interfered in the election in 2008 or 2012 to the same degree as they did in 2016 it would have been a big story and the public would have heard about it........especially if Obama had spoken highly at every turn about Putin and denied there was interference. When you compare the two time periods you act like circumstances were the same. They aren't, at all. Obama and Putin did not like each other, at all. It's not projection, except when you try and equate the two.

" Putin says he did not hack or try to interfere in American elections as well. Things get really dicey when one starts to choose what they believe and do not believe from a certain source to affirm one's beliefs." Are you serious with this shit? Call me crazy, I choose not to believe Putin over our IC? Is that an extreme position? Are you saying, like Trump, that you believe Putin over our IC?

"Did any of these actual agreements come into play yet?" Lol. Well it happened a week ago so I'm not sure that using that as an argument at this point makes much sense.

I personally see no pressing need for Trump to meet Putin twice in a few months........but if all you think there is, then this admin should start a diplomatic initiative. The SOS and state department should be doing all the legwork. But this president thinks he's better at deal making than the professionals.........and he loves the big stage with Putin......for whatever reason.

"I didn't say the Russians weren't good at it.......I said nothing of the sort."

Reread the first sentence of your post. " If all that is true, and I don't agree it is, it sounds like Russia is really good at this geopolitics thing and working the American political system. " Just sounded skeptical of their ability in this area.

"I said I disagreed with your version of events.......which were just your opinion, not facts (Dems acting tough to save face etc)."

Not sure what to tell you, believe what you want. This last year and a half is the toughest I have ever heard democrats talk about Russia. Like I said, they were non existent in this stance the 8 years before Trump took office. Could not bend over far enough to accomodate them. Now, sound like hard asses. That is no just my opinion, but reality.

" Putin says he did not hack or try to interfere in American elections as well. Things get really dicey when one starts to choose what they believe and do not believe from a certain source to affirm one's beliefs." Are you serious with this shit? Call me crazy, I choose not to believe Putin over our IC? Is that an extreme position? Are you saying, like Trump, that you believe Putin over our IC?

No you are indicating you beleive Putin and his press over The NSC of the USA.

The point was you do not believe Putin when he says he did not interfere with elections, you believe US agencies. That is fine and I tend to agree. But then you turn around and lap up what the Russian press(Putin) says about the summit. Meanwhile the US's own Security Council have said there are no agreements, no headway, nothing to indicate that. So yes, you appear to believe the US Intel when you want and appear to believe or promote what Russia says when you want. My guess it is to affirm your beliefs. From the article you linked:

"The entirety of the Trump-Putin discussions remains a mystery. Russia claims that agreements were made at the Helsinki summit, while the National Security Council insists that “There were no commitments to undertake any concrete action, beyond agreement that both sides should continue discussions.”

So yes I am serious about that. Seems to me you should trust the NSC over Putin and his press puppets as well.

I personally see no pressing need for Trump to meet Putin twice in a few months........but if all you think there is, then this admin should start a diplomatic initiative. The SOS and state department should be doing all the legwork. But this president thinks he's better at deal making than the professionals.........and he loves the big stage with Putin......for whatever reason

I do not really see any need either but then again do not know what was discussed. And again, what deals did he make? Not sure if you noticed, but Pompeo and others have been talking with NK since that summit. I think Trump has said 1-2 things about it after that week.

 

[BuilderBob6]

Tillerson isn’t running DoS anymore idiot. Pompeo is. The people carping about this were mostly Obama hires anyway. Not a big loss if you ask me.

Wtf is your problem? I know Tillerson is gone. Go obsess over someone else's posts.

 

[ComradeRedBoilermaker]

the notion that Russia would support any side that weakened Us geopolitical influence and power is correct.

That being said, the degree of right wing radicalization of the Russian government is shocking and not much talked about in the English speaking press. They are signal boosting fringe right wing nationalist groups all over Europe. That they are putting significantly more time, money, and effort into reaching out to America’s hard right should not be interpreted as pure opportunism.

 

[Purdue97]

the notion that Russia would support any side that weakened Us geopolitical influence and power is correct.

That being said, the degree of right wing radicalization of the Russian government is shocking and not much talked about in the English speaking press. They are signal boosting fringe right wing nationalist groups all over Europe. That they are putting significantly more time, money, and effort into reaching out to America’s hard right should not be interpreted as pure opportunism.

No doubt where they stand. The Russian govt sent out warnings to its females over the WC to not date men from other countries and disrupt the gene pool or something similar to that.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Wtf is your problem? I know Tillerson is gone. Go obsess over someone else's posts.

Believe me, I don't obsess about you or your posts. But you're an easy target with all the b.s. you continually spout.

 

[PurdueFan1]

Wtf is your problem? I know Tillerson is gone. Go obsess over someone else's posts.

Believe me, I don't obsess about you or your posts. But you're an easy target with all the b.s. you continually spout.

Touché

 

[BuilderBob6]

"I didn't say the Russians weren't good at it.......I said nothing of the sort."

Reread the first sentence of your post. " If all that is true, and I don't agree it is, it sounds like Russia is really good at this geopolitics thing and working the American political system. " Just sounded skeptical of their ability in this area.

"I said I disagreed with your version of events.......which were just your opinion, not facts (Dems acting tough to save face etc)."

Not sure what to tell you, believe what you want. This last year and a half is the toughest I have ever heard democrats talk about Russia. Like I said, they were non existent in this stance the 8 years before Trump took office. Could not bend over far enough to accomodate them. Now, sound like hard asses. That is no just my opinion, but reality.

" Putin says he did not hack or try to interfere in American elections as well. Things get really dicey when one starts to choose what they believe and do not believe from a certain source to affirm one's beliefs." Are you serious with this shit? Call me crazy, I choose not to believe Putin over our IC? Is that an extreme position? Are you saying, like Trump, that you believe Putin over our IC?

No you are indicating you beleive Putin and his press over The NSC of the USA.

The point was you do not believe Putin when he says he did not interfere with elections, you believe US agencies. That is fine and I tend to agree. But then you turn around and lap up what the Russian press(Putin) says about the summit. Meanwhile the US's own Security Council have said there are no agreements, no headway, nothing to indicate that. So yes, you appear to believe the US Intel when you want and appear to believe or promote what Russia says when you want. My guess it is to affirm your beliefs. From the article you linked:

"The entirety of the Trump-Putin discussions remains a mystery. Russia claims that agreements were made at the Helsinki summit, while the National Security Council insists that “There were no commitments to undertake any concrete action, beyond agreement that both sides should continue discussions.”

So yes I am serious about that. Seems to me you should trust the NSC over Putin and his press puppets as well.

I personally see no pressing need for Trump to meet Putin twice in a few months........but if all you think there is, then this admin should start a diplomatic initiative. The SOS and state department should be doing all the legwork. But this president thinks he's better at deal making than the professionals.........and he loves the big stage with Putin......for whatever reason

I do not really see any need either but then again do not know what was discussed. And again, what deals did he make? Not sure if you noticed, but Pompeo and others have been talking with NK since that summit. I think Trump has said 1-2 things about it after that week.

The dems have been tougher on Russia since Trump came into office. It could be your saving face theory is the cause. It could be to simply oppose Trump at every turn. It could also be because Russia interfered in our election and our president denies it while kissing up the the man responsible for it. You are so busy looking for ways to discredit the dems that you ignore the present situation. So the dems are playing politics...... wtf does that matter now except to be used as a talking point? Does it change in any way what's happening now?

So I should trust the NSC like I trust our IC? You do realize the NSC is chaired by the president right? It's not an intelligence body, the only member of the IC on it is the DNI. Trump controls any statement coming from the NSC. So no, I don't know if their statement regarding agreements is accurate because it came from Trump himself. The president can't control what the IC says.

I'm not saying I believe Putin over anybody but he's the only one doing the talking. We have gotten zero information from Trump.

If what Putin is saying is bullshit, why is Trump meeting with him again? Where's the outrage from Trump that Putin is telling lies about their meeting, saying there were agreements made. Where?

Putin is lying about agreements made at the first meeting according to Trump. So what's his response? Let's have ANOTHER meeting with this lying POS. Brilliant.

 

[roadblock19]

I tend to agree with SD on this in that its very much subject to change. For decades, the KGB saw the left as its most logical ideological ally. Western leftist supported Moscow-backed revolutions across the globe and the supression of NATO/US military cooperation on many fronts.

Today it has flipped as the GOP has evolved into a more protectionist/nationalist party with greater skepticism towards NATO, CIA, and other institutions that stand in the way of Moscow's ambitions. That said, it can yet flip again...and at some point, probably will. Remember the Russian IC refers to westerners who parrot Moscow's talking points as "useful idiots". It's a relationship not of equals, but guile-fueled exploitation.

During obama admin, he rewrote constitution to give himself unlimited power, entered Middle East (Syria, Turkey, Iran and Pakistan) which we had them out of for decades and consolidated the FSB/SVR into the MGB (similar to KGB). He also inked 3 huge oil deals (Gasprom) and invaded parts of 3 countries. Obama never took a stance and let him run wild. Hell MGB even stole 100% of federal employees private info

HRC has ties to Russian oligarch billionaires going back decades as well. Won’t even get into her attitude on security and not upgrading her blackberry to new phones with NSA firewalls.

Trump campaigned on rolling back Russia and China. The fact that the media thinks putin wanted trump and his cabinet as president is laughable

 

[Scheffler90]

During obama admin, he rewrote constitution to give himself unlimited power, entered Middle East (Syria, Turkey, Iran and Pakistan) which we had them out of for decades and consolidated the FSB/SVR into the MGB (similar to KGB). He also inked 3 huge oil deals (Gasprom) and invaded parts of 3 countries. Obama never took a stance and let him run wild. Hell MGB even stole 100% of federal employees private info

HRC has ties to Russian oligarch billionaires going back decades as well. Won’t even get into her attitude on security and not upgrading her blackberry to new phones with NSA firewalls.

Trump campaigned on rolling back Russia and China. The fact that the media thinks putin wanted trump and his cabinet as president is laughable

Yeah I tend to agree that we haven't really had a good handle on where the Russians are as a country relative to the US since the Reagan/Bush era. I think after the Cold War, we were so focused on making sure they didn't slide back to Socialism that we kinda ignored their more nationalist/anti-democratic tendencies.

I do think once they started their expansionist tendencies, it was up to Obama to really step in and put his foot down. He didn't. That quip about Romney's foreign policy belonging in the 1980s was indicative of the naiveté they had towards Moscow.

That said, I'm hard pressed to really square Trump's public comments about Russia with his overall tough stance with other countries. It's like he's one person with the whole world, and then becomes a completely different person with Russia. I sincerely don't get it. When he was hammering the NATO countries (rightly) for not owning up their they share of the cost of operations, I was thinking "Man, if he's this tough on Merkel/Macron, just wait for what kind of hammer he's going to lay on Putin". Then he goes to Helsinki and sounds like Noam Chomsky....The US is to blame for Russia's aggressiveness. The CIA is wrong but the FSB is right about meddling. It's just odd and I don't think we'll have a real handle on this preternatural situation until Mueller is done...that it's either just a strange personal affinity that he has towards Russia, or it's something else, something darker.

I think the Russia's did prefer Trump...and that's not a Liberal media creation alone...It's the US intel community saying that. While I do think the media loves to hype up that claim, it's not something they made up, it's directly from our own spy agencies. So your beef may not be with the media, it's with the CIA. I'm not sure what kind of "Dan-Coats-Really-Hates-Trump-And-Is-Lying-About-Russian-Meddling" argument you can squeeze out of that.

That said, it's not like Russia is married to any one party/candidate. I would have bet a lot of $ that if the GOP had nominated an anti-Russian hawk and the Dems put up Bernie, the Russian's would have gladly hacked into whatever they could get on the GOP candidate and aired it to prop up Bernie. And even when they support a candidate, it's not like they are doing everything they can to help him/her once they are in office...they want strife, anger and chaos to reign in the US political system. They helped Trump, but once he was in, they were coordinating rallies/activities AGAINST him and his supporters. Again, Russian support for any candidate is to advance THEIR interest, not ours. And a divided America is exactly what they want.

Which raises the question of future elections and how the parties stand on Russia. Let's say it flips and they start supporting Dem candidates and hurting GOP ones. Will the feelings towards Russia flip "back" to the old configuration where Dems mock Pubs for being so Anti-Kremlin and Pubs see Dems as "soft" on Moscow?

 

[BuilderBob6]

1. Russians did try and hack GOP servers.

2. I don't think Trump and co are as soft on Russia as they and the media make them out to be ( https://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian-mercenaries-syria-lament-us-strike-killed-dozens-818073 )

3. I agree that they want to create chaos and I think this Mueller investigation is exactly what they want. I am also confident they wanted Hillary as president as she was paid off by MGB (DNC and her campaign both received $ from Russians). Now the media/left is provoking Trump and Russia which I am sure scares the hell out of Putin.

4. The Russians have been fed propaganda for 60 some years now. Their goals do not align with the USA. Russia wants access to the West. They want to fix their crap economy and become modernized.

Russia is not our friend, I agree there. Look at some of Trump's closest advisers ( Kelly, Mattis & Pompeo). All military backgrounds. Trump took down the RNC and HRC, he is not an idiot. There is a method behind his madness.

The bigger threat is China. Funny how they never get brought up for hacking or election interference.

The Russians wanted Hillary, one of my favorites.

But the best by far.....the idea that because US military forces we're attacked by Russians and defended themselves means Trump is tough on Russia. They were attacked by hostile forces while operating in Syria. I doubt command considered the geopolitical ramifications before returning fire. If the Little sisters of the Poor attacked they would have met the same fate. Trump doesn't get credit for our military defending themselves in a combat zone. GR8 can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Scheffler90]

1. Russians did try and hack GOP servers.
- Agree

2. I don't think Trump and co are as soft on Russia as they and the media make them out to be ( https://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian-mercenaries-syria-lament-us-strike-killed-dozens-818073 )
- Disagree. While I do think the media does try to skew the coverage of Trump vs Russia as weird, it takes a certain type of political beer goggles to see this situation as normal. Even on the Embassy evictions, there are reports Trump was furious with State over that, yet that's credited to the Trump-Tough-On-Russia ledger. Again, if Trump were an absoulute 1970s style dove, then blaming the US and disbelieving the CIA in favor of Russia would make perfect sense. But he's no such dove when it comes to other parts of the world. It's odd.

3. I agree that they want to create chaos and I think this Mueller investigation is exactly what they want. I am also confident they wanted Hillary as president as she was paid off by MGB (DNC and her campaign both received $ from Russians). Now the media/left is provoking Trump and Russia which I am sure scares the hell out of Putin.
- The Russians wanted an investigation that resulted in one of the assets getting arrested, dozens of their GRU spooks exposed and forever on Interpol travel lists and their cyber-war operation exposed? Ummmm, ok. And on Hillary being their preference, that's a direct contradiction on what our Intel community says, as well as Burr's senate committee. So again, they're lying?

4. The Russians have been fed propaganda for 60 some years now. Their goals do not align with the USA. Russia wants access to the West. They want to fix their crap economy and become modernized.
- Yup. It goes back further than 60 years even. They may want access to the west, but they'll settle for inciting strife.

Russia is not our friend, I agree there. Look at some of Trump's closest advisers ( Kelly, Mattis & Pompeo). All military backgrounds. Trump took down the RNC and HRC, he is not an idiot. There is a method behind his madness.
- I like his advisors, I just wish he'd listen to them on Russia. Hell, I'd settle for him just keeping his military/Intel people in the loop on his discussions with Putin, so they don't get side-swiped...e.g.: Coats at Aspen.

The bigger threat is China. Funny how they never get brought up for hacking or election interference.
- Kinda agree. China is not covered nearly enough.

 

[Bethboilerfan]

Putin said in joint news conference with Trump that he wanted Trump to win:
REPORTER: Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?

PUTIN: Yes, I wanted him to win. Because he talked about bringing the U.S. Russia relationship back to normal.

 

[roadblock19]

The Russians wanted Hillary, one of my favorites.

But the best by far.....the idea that because US military forces we're attacked by Russians and defended themselves means Trump is tough on Russia. They were attacked by hostile forces while operating in Syria. I doubt command considered the geopolitical ramifications before returning fire. If the Little sisters of the Poor attacked they would have met the same fate. Trump doesn't get credit for our military defending themselves in a combat zone. GR8 can correct me if I'm wrong.

Petr Aven, Oleg Deripaska, Aleksey Kuzmichev, German Khan, Mikhail Fridman and Mikhail Prokorhov say hi!

 

[roadblock19]

Putin said in joint news conference with Trump that he wanted Trump to win:
REPORTER: Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?

PUTIN: Yes, I wanted him to win. Because he talked about bringing the U.S. Russia relationship back to normal.

Yeah, what is normal?
CIA/ISIS cresting havoc in Syria is interesting too with Russia back in the picture there. The Qatar backed oil pipeline going there to supply EU poses a major threat to Russia’s already weak economy. I think oil is like 33% of their GDP.

Trying to wrap my head around all of this going on. I think there is a lot more than what appears on the surface.
I also think dems, media and obama admin are accusing trump of exactly what they are guilty of. Anxiously awaiting Huber’s investigation.
Much like any government, there are good people, bad people and people in between.
I do not think russian “interference” had an impact on any votes for the record. They certainly did not hack Hillary’s air planes and prevent her from going to Wisconsin.

 

[BoilerBiker]

During obama admin, he rewrote constitution to give himself unlimited power,

what should trump do with these new found powers? if not, when will they reverse & make them unavailable for abuse?

 

[gr8indoorsman]

The Russians wanted Hillary, one of my favorites.

But the best by far.....the idea that because US military forces we're attacked by Russians and defended themselves means Trump is tough on Russia. They were attacked by hostile forces while operating in Syria. I doubt command considered the geopolitical ramifications before returning fire. If the Little sisters of the Poor attacked they would have met the same fate. Trump doesn't get credit for our military defending themselves in a combat zone. GR8 can correct me if I'm wrong.

Trump and his admin changed the ROE to allow more flexibility to commanders on the ground in situations like that one. Obama admin had Combatant Commanders calling back to the Pentagon for permission to do a lot of stuff. Trump has definitely loosened the reins in that regard, and that is a good thing IMO.