Subbing a player after a bucket

[alumnfan]

I have never understood why a coach would take a player out after he has just scored a bucket or two (unless there is some pressing reason like the player is dragging, killing the team in some way or in foul trouble). CMP seems to do this incredibly often and it defies all logic IMO. Coach Keady used to do this too but I don't see it as a regular thing among college coaches. Yesterday it happened numerous times but the one that bothered me most was subbing out Dakota after he scored 5 points in like 5 minutes and had just hit our first 3 of the game. Maybe, just maybe, he was finding a rhythm from deep that could have been contagious and helped us. It is equal opportunity too. He does it to every player on the team and has done it regularly for the last 3-4 years (he didn't do this much with the Kramer and Baby Boilers teams which I always appreciated about him since Coach Keady did it all the time and it bugged me).

Is there someone out there that loves studying film that could look into this and report back on their findings? CMP has actually twice this season stated after a game that he made a mistake taking a player out after he had made a bucket or two so I am not even sure he is fully aware of how often he does it. Maybe some stats/facts on this could help the coaching staff reevaluate this issue.

 

[Jbigler1986]

I have noticed this too. It seems like he has a game plan and is set to sub no matter if a player starts making shots or not. I do think understand it either.

 

[spradecki]

many times the sub is already at the bench ready to come in. can the coach call him back once he checks in?

 

[alumnfan]

many times the sub is already at the bench ready to come in. can the coach call him back once he checks in?

yes, a coach call him back anytime before he enters the game and can also sub him right back out if he realizes after the fact.

 

[lbodel]

I have never understood why a coach would take a player out after he has just scored a bucket or two (unless there is some pressing reason like the player is dragging, killing the team in some way or in foul trouble). CMP seems to do this incredibly often and it defies all logic IMO. Coach Keady used to do this too but I don't see it as a regular thing among college coaches. Yesterday it happened numerous times but the one that bothered me most was subbing out Dakota after he scored 5 points in like 5 minutes and had just hit our first 3 of the game. Maybe, just maybe, he was finding a rhythm from deep that could have been contagious and helped us. It is equal opportunity too. He does it to every player on the team and has done it regularly for the last 3-4 years (he didn't do this much with the Kramer and Baby Boilers teams which I always appreciated about him since Coach Keady did it all the time and it bugged me).

Is there someone out there that loves studying film that could look into this and report back on their findings? CMP has actually twice this season stated after a game that he made a mistake taking a player out after he had made a bucket or two so I am not even sure he is fully aware of how often he does it. Maybe some stats/facts on this could help the coaching staff reevaluate this issue.

I don't watch things close enough, but obviously subbing is often done as a chess match between coaches. I.e. if a certain player is coming in for a team, the other coach wants to make sure another player is in for that match-up.

There obviously can be a multitude of factors involved in subbing. It's a good question to ask - but I'm guessing there's probably a reasoning and not that there's 6 minutes left, I have to take "x" out of the game now!

 

[alumnfan]

I don't watch things close enough, but obviously subbing is often done as a chess match between coaches. I.e. if a certain player is coming in for a team, the other coach wants to make sure another player is in for that match-up.

There obviously can be a multitude of factors involved in subbing. It's a good question to ask - but I'm guessing there's probably a reasoning and not that there's 6 minutes left, I have to take "x" out of the game now!

If you watch it with us, they are not chess match type moves.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

So do I get this right……someone should take a hard look at the film?

 

[BuilderBob6]

If you watch it with us, they are not chess match type moves.

How do you know? I doubt any of us are watching close enough to know.

Maryland was very much about matchups. Dakota and Cline could not keep up with their athletes or deal with their size. Cline was guarding Layman while he was in. We were lucky they didn't take advantage of it. When Cline couldn't make threes, he was out.

 

[lbodel]

How do you know? I doubt any of us are watching close enough to know.

Maryland was very much about matchups. Dakota and Cline could not keep up with their athletes or deal with their size. Cline was guarding Layman while he was in. We were lucky they didn't take advantage of it. When Cline couldn't make threes, he was out.

It's also not tit for tat. Just because Maryland didn't sub when our player was subbed, doesn't mean it's not match-up related. For example, Dakota may have been kept in longer than Painter was planning on it, and stretched it for as long he thought he could until something got exposed.

Again, I was at the game, which makes it nearly impossible to really follow that unless you just pay attention to subs, but it's like people pointing out that Painter isn't "on the refs" enough when they watch on TV. You don't really get the big picture...

 

[alumnfan]

How do you know? I doubt any of us are watching close enough to know.

Maryland was very much about matchups. Dakota and Cline could not keep up with their athletes or deal with their size. Cline was guarding Layman while he was in. We were lucky they didn't take advantage of it. When Cline couldn't make threes, he was out.

Because I watch it very closely. It is one of the things I look for every game. Also, b/c CMP has admitted to making this mistake this season. Vince is our most versatile player and when it happens to him after 2 straight buckets and no other errors it would be hard to argue he needs a break. Let's wait until he is gassed or misses a shot but ride a hot hand when you can. Also, in the last game, if DM is a better defender than RC and DM scores 5 points in a 4-5 minute stretch, he isn't being removed for defensive purposes so ride the hot hand.

 

[alumnfan]

It's also not tit for tat. Just because Maryland didn't sub when our player was subbed, doesn't mean it's not match-up related. For example, Dakota may have been kept in longer than Painter was planning on it, and stretched it for as long he thought he could until something got exposed.

Again, I was at the game, which makes it nearly impossible to really follow that unless you just pay attention to subs, but it's like people pointing out that Painter isn't "on the refs" enough when they watch on TV. You don't really get the big picture...

DM was removed for RC (I like RC). What was DM going to be exposed on after 5 points that RC was going to keep from happening? My point is that unless there is a glaring obvious reason to make the change (defensive nightmare matchup, absolute exhaustion, 2 straight turnovers, etc.), don't remove a player that has found his rhythm on offensive and is hot. My point is that we do just that.

 

[SIBoiler2]

If I was the coach I'd only sub before a player made a shot. If you make it you have to stay in the rest of the game. Better hit your first one if you want to play. Otherwise out you go never to return if your sub hits his first shot.

 

[vilehoopster]

I used to coach high school ball and I had a substitution pattern, which unless there was foul trouble, I followed absolutely. My first sub went in at two minutes, at four minutes that starter returned with another sub, so two more guys came out... and so on. I never deviated from the pattern unless foul trouble or injury. It didn't matter if a player made five shots in a row or missed five shots in row, you knew how long you were playing that quarter and when you were coming out and going back in. I think it gave my players confidence, and they didn't worry about making a mistake and they wouldn't try to play beyond their skills to try and stay in. (An example of a player trying to play beyond his skills would be Bryon Scott trying to shoot his way into the starting lineup and all it did was hurt his playing time and Purdue, or Cline now with some of the shots he takes) A clear sub pattern was clean and everybody at the start of the game knew what was going to happen minutes-wise. But really I don't know of any other coach who had followed a substitution pattern as strictly as I did, but I really felt that it gave the players a confidence and flow.

Now there were some rules that got you taken out immediately (bad shot selection or lack of hustle on D), but you would get a quick sit and talking to, and then get right back into the substitution pattern. In fact (and this used to drive parents crazy) if a player takes what I have clearly defined repeatedly in practice as a bad shot, he comes out, even if he made the shot.

So with Purdue, I assume that Painter has a sub pattern and he follows it, regardless if someone hit a couple shots in a row. People really tend to overestimate the idea that after a player makes a few shots in a row, he must be hot and keep him it. The logical way I always looked at it is that if it's a good shot, then shoot it, and keeping shooting that shot, whether you just made or missed four in a row. A coach, if he wants confident shooters, can't make a big deal if a player misses, or makes a few shots in a row. The only thing that matters is if the shots were good shots.

 

[alumnfan]

I used to coach high school ball and I had a substitution pattern, which unless there was foul trouble, I followed absolutely. My first sub went in at two minutes, at four minutes that starter returned with another sub, so two more guys came out... and so on. I never deviated from the pattern unless foul trouble or injury. It didn't matter if a player made five shots in a row or missed five shots in row, you knew how long you were playing that quarter and when you were coming out and going back in. I think it gave my players confidence, and they didn't worry about making a mistake and they wouldn't try to play beyond their skills to try and stay in. (An example of a player trying to play beyond his skills would be Bryon Scott trying to shoot his way into the starting lineup and all it did was hurt his playing time and Purdue, or Cline now with some of the shots he takes) A clear sub pattern was clean and everybody at the start of the game knew what was going to happen minutes-wise. But really I don't know of any other coach who had followed a substitution pattern as strictly as I did, but I really felt that it gave the players a confidence and flow.

Now there were some rules that got you taken out immediately (bad shot selection or lack of hustle on D), but you would get a quick sit and talking to, and then get right back into the substitution pattern. In fact (and this used to drive parents crazy) if a player takes what I have clearly defined repeatedly in practice as a bad shot, he comes out, even if he made the shot.

So with Purdue, I assume that Painter has a sub pattern and he follows it, regardless if someone hit a couple shots in a row. People really tend to overestimate the idea that after a player makes a few shots in a row, he must be hot and keep him it. The logical way I always looked at it is that if it's a good shot, then shoot it, and keeping shooting that shot, whether you just made or missed four in a row. A coach, if he wants confident shooters, can't make a big deal if a player misses, or makes a few shots in a row. The only thing that matters is if the shots were good shots.

I believe that approach would not be a pattern followed by most coaches as you mentioned. One role of the coach is to understand time, place and situation. Especially at high major college basketball where minutes are not split so that everyone is happy. Hoping it worked for you, but to follow that rigid of an approach in the course of a game that is fluid and always different, could be done by anyone and not a coach that is paid millions to manage and call a game.

 

[delish1]

I believe that approach would not be a pattern followed by most coaches as you mentioned. One role of the coach is to understand time, place and situation. Especially at high major college basketball where minutes are not split so that everyone is happy. Hoping it worked for you, but to follow that rigid of an approach in the course of a game that is fluid and always different, could be done by anyone and not a coach that is paid millions to manage and call a game.

I agree with some of both vile and alumn's viewpoints, I'm happy I don't have to make the subbing decisions with this team. I do think some structure is important but sensing the flow of the game is critical at this level. I also think there is some logic to taking a player out after a make to keep them in the right mindset while on the bench (especially a player that won't be out too long). I only do this on a super low level, but I don't like taking shooters out after a miss. Then they are on the bench thinking about that miss instead of confidently wanting to get back in there.

 

[PBoiler84]

I've commented before that I get the impression Painter goes into a game with a substitution plan and sticks with it regardless of the flow of the game. I scratch my head when I see him taking out the hot guy and subbing in someone just to keep the team fresh, I guess. I saw from the stat sheet that RD played 43 (of 45) minutes last night and Valentine for MSU played 42 minutes. It's clear these guys can play longer minutes without being greatly affected.

 

[tantalum]

I have noticed this over several games. I think MP does a good job substituting AJ and IH. But with DM in particular I have noticed several times DM hitting 2 or 3 shots in the first half and then getting subbed out by RC. They seem to be almost even in ability, I think RC is getting to be a little better on Defense but I like DMs ability to fake the three and get an open 2 pt shot. I would like to see DM get a couple more minutes if he hits a couple shots. It just seems like he is getting warmed up when he has to leave. Even it RC gets more minutes in the 2nd half as a result.