Scrimmage.

DAG10

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One of the reasons that Morton was in the rotation and Newman wasn’t last year
Morton is (or was at least a PG)...Newman is an actual 3 (or has been at Purdue)...big difference.

If Newman had shot the ball better, and, not dribbled it, he would have played...regardless of whether he fed the post as accurately apparently as Ethan did.
 

tjreese

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Absolutely! I also find it amazing that some folks think assists created in a low post centric offense are somehow "lesser" assists than those created out of a PNR or drive & dish. Last I checked, the objective of the game is to score more than the other guy. Seems the easiest assists are the best.
There are very few high school players that play through a post. They may include a post player in teh offense, but typically it isn't that often for most teams. Second, most scorers (and those are the ones that typically move on) don't take a lot of pride in passing the ball as long as it is in the zip code and time zone...they think they did their job...especially with a dribble drive offense.

Over quite a few Purdue teams I've watched players in the post lose his seal by not getting the angle or just throwing it away. I don't think it is so much skill (other than handling the pressure to be in a position capable of providing a accruate, timely pass) as it is pride in passing the ball...
 

DAG10

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There are very few high school players that play through a post. They may include a post player in teh offense, but typically it isn't that often for most teams. Second, most scorers (and those are the ones that typically move on) don't take a lot of pride in passing the ball as long as it is in the zip code and time zone...they think they did their job...especially with a dribble drive offense.
Nailed it...not a skill, it is all about caring...and, not enough guys care (and, unless it is a PG that is expected to do it, in that guys still play...no better example than Ivey in that regard).
 
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OhioBoiler51

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Morton is (or was at least a PG)...Newman is an actual 3 (or has been at Purdue)...big difference.

If Newman had shot the ball better, and, not dribbled it, he would have played...regardless of whether he fed the post as accurately apparently as Ethan did.
What does position matter when you just said every D1 player should be able to do it?
 

tjreese

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So few teams play with an emphasis on post-entry, and, even fewer play it in HS or AAU.

I mean, Edey barely played in HS, much less did they run the offense through him.

At the same time, to act as if it is some lost art is a bit much as well...not many guys that are going to keep Zach from getting position, and, while it is not as genuinely easy as "just throwing it" to him, it is not remarkably difficult to do it either.

My guess is that until Purdue shows an ability to knock down 3s with consistency, more so with the lack of size with many teams, they will see a lot of zone defense.
I can see the 4 man getting some O boards and baskets if Purdue is zoned...and not too many teams stay in a zone against Purdue if history is repeated
 

DAG10

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Absolutely! I also find it amazing that some folks think assists created in a low post centric offense are somehow "lesser" assists than those created out of a PNR or drive & dish. Last I checked, the objective of the game is to score more than the other guy. Seems the easiest assists are the best.
That is indeed the objective, and, it is why most teams do not have a post-centric offense...that Purdue tries to be contrarian is an entirely different conversation.

A guy standing on the perimeter and dropping the ball down to the post to the guy standing 2-feet away from the rim (at most usually) and him dropping the ball in the bucket is entirely different from a guy handling the ball, controlling the offense, driving the ball and dishing the ball...the point was made about Morton's A/T ratio...same point could be made virtually every year (and many times has been) about guards for Purdue...because opposed to so many other guards, they are getting easy assists as you suggest, and, they are not doing anything that would lead to a potential turnover most of the time...they catch the ball and throw it to the block...that is not a genuine skill, and, it would be crazy if they played and were not capable of doing it...to the point that if that were actually the case, they would not actually play.
 

DAG10

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What does position matter when you just said every D1 player should be able to do it?
We have already established that reading comprehension is not a strong point (as you have now quoted me incorrectly twice in the same thread)...but, it is not what I said...I said any guard playing major Div-I basketball that could not make a post entry pass should not be playing, and, I stand by it...and, I stand by it even more at a place like Purdue where you don't have to create at all as a guard, you merely have to be able to catch the ball and then throw it to the post to the biggest guy on the floor.
 

PurdueDave

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That is indeed the objective, and, it is why most teams do not have a post-centric offense...that Purdue tries to be contrarian is an entirely different conversation.

A guy standing on the perimeter and dropping the ball down to the post to the guy standing 2-feet away from the rim (at most usually) and him dropping the ball in the bucket is entirely different from a guy handling the ball, controlling the offense, driving the ball and dishing the ball...the point was made about Morton's A/T ratio...same point could be made virtually every year (and many times has been) about guards for Purdue...because opposed to so many other guards, they are getting easy assists as you suggest, and, they are not doing anything that would lead to a potential turnover most of the time...they catch the ball and throw it to the block...that is not a genuine skill, and, it would be crazy if they played and were not capable of doing it...to the point that if that were actually the case, they would not actually play.
True, but if Purdue is to be successful with its post centric offense, they need guys that can feed the post without turning it over. Those same guys also need to be able to make 3s at a good rate - both skills shouldn't be that difficult for D1 guards, but apparently it's harder than we think.
 

Purdue85

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Wherever my wife tells me I should be
And apparently you think throwing the ball in the paint to a giant center is some specialized skill and not something every player on the roster should be able to do. Why am I not surprised you would think that?
"specialized skill"...

"...something every player on the roster should be able to do..."

Anyone who has watched any basketball knows, it's not something everyone can do, regardless what one thinks they should be able to do.

I played inside... a LOT. There were many teams on which I played, where I had to pull my @ss off the blocks to the perimeter, in order to get a good entry pass to get the offense flowing.

It is an art.
 

OhioBoiler51

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That is indeed the objective, and, it is why most teams do not have a post-centric offense...that Purdue tries to be contrarian is an entirely different conversation.

A guy standing on the perimeter and dropping the ball down to the post to the guy standing 2-feet away from the rim (at most usually) and him dropping the ball in the bucket is entirely different from a guy handling the ball, controlling the offense, driving the ball and dishing the ball...the point was made about Morton's A/T ratio...same point could be made virtually every year (and many times has been) about guards for Purdue...because opposed to so many other guards, they are getting easy assists as you suggest, and, they are not doing anything that would lead to a potential turnover most of the time...they catch the ball and throw it to the block...that is not a genuine skill, and, it would be crazy if they played and were not capable of doing it...to the point that if that were actually the case, they would not actually play.
Last 3 years

2019-20 Purdue had 0 players in the rotation with a 2 to 1 A/T.

2020-21 Purdue had 2 players achieve a 2 to 1 (Sasha + IT) with ITs mainly being from protecting the ball (only averaged 1 assist per game in 18mpg)

2021-22 Purdue had 2 players right around a 3 to 1 (Sasha + Morton) with Hunter barely missing a 2 to 1.

There’s no Ivey and to a lesser extent Hunter to break a defender down on their own to get a bucket this year. Ball movement and good entry passing is going to be extremely important for this team. Purdue’s backcourt this year will have 3-4 players who’ve never played a college game, 2 players in Newman + Jenkins who’ve neither had a season with a A/T ratio over 1, and then Morton who is coming off a season just below 3 to 1. I just don’t know how you can say Morton provides no offensive value to this team
 

OhioBoiler51

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.I said any guard playing major Div-I basketball that could not make a post entry pass should not be playing,
Correct but you also liked a post in this thread saying

“Every player, on any D1 team should be able to throw an "entry pass" to a behemoth sized human in the paint. It's not some special skill that should be given a lot of consideration when determining playing time.”
 

johnboiler123

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"specialized skill"...

"...something every player on the roster should be able to do..."

Anyone who has watched any basketball knows, it's not something everyone can do, regardless what one thinks they should be able to do.

I played inside... a LOT. There were many teams on which I played, where I had to pull my @ss off the blocks to the perimeter, in order to get a good entry pass to get the offense flowing.

It is an art.
Just because you were picked last on the playground to play basketball doesn't mean you actually played anything even remotely approaching a high level. Forgive me if I don't take your opinion seriously.
 

DAG10

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Last 3 years

2019-20 Purdue had 0 players in the rotation with a 2 to 1 A/T.

2020-21 Purdue had 2 players achieve a 2 to 1 (Sasha + IT) with ITs mainly being from protecting the ball (only averaged 1 assist per game in 18mpg)

2021-22 Purdue had 2 players right around a 3 to 1 (Sasha + Morton) with Hunter barely missing a 2 to 1.

There’s no Ivey and to a lesser extent Hunter to break a defender down on their own to get a bucket this year. Ball movement and good entry passing is going to be extremely important for this team. Purdue’s backcourt this year will have 3-4 players who’ve never played a college game, 2 players in Newman + Jenkins who’ve neither had a season with a A/T ratio over 1, and then Morton who is coming off a season just below 3 to 1. I just don’t know how you can say Morton provides no offensive value to this team
Because he can't score with any consistency and is not a threat to do so....the ability to throw a ball to the biggest guy on the floor could not be more overrated, and, if THAT is the justification for him playing (or anyone for that matter) ahead of guys that are legitimately better/more talented AND can score, then I absolutely will question it.

This team needs guys that can score, as, it has a single guy that has shown THAT ability, and, Morton in two years has not shown it (as well as during his summer travel experience).

This is not a case of me knocking or not liking Morton...I love his energy...guy has good court awareness in general...he is always communicating with the coaches and trying to get things right at both ends...but, if he can't score (and he has not shown at all that he can), the idea that he should be starting and getting big minutes merely because he can feed the post is difficult for me to understand, much less agree with.

Morton absolutely will play, and, he can/will help Purdue...but, the notion that he is a huge help offensively as you suggested because of an overvalued A/T ratio is just not something that I buy.
 

DAG10

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Correct but you also liked a post in this thread saying

“Every player, on any D1 team should be able to throw an "entry pass" to a behemoth sized human in the paint. It's not some special skill that should be given a lot of consideration when determining playing time.”
I did...because I absolutely agree with the point that was being made on the whole, and, while I did specifically say that any guard not capable of making a post-entry pass should not play, any perimeter player really should be capable at this level, and, more so with position-less basketball reigning supreme

I am pretty comfortable with the idea that there are not a lot of big-time programs recruiting guys based on their ability to make a post-entry pass.
 
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johnboiler123

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I did...because I absolutely agree with the point that was being made on the whole, and, while I did specifically say that any guard not capable of making a post-entry pass should not play, any perimeter player really should be capable at this level, and, more so with position-less basketball reigning supreme

I am pretty comfortable with the idea that there are not a lot of big-time programs recruiting guys based on their ability to make a post-entry pass.
Don't think I've ever read a scouting report, at any level, that mentioned a players ability to throw the ball in the post. But according to someone here, "it's an art". Lol...
 

tjreese

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True, but if Purdue is to be successful with its post centric offense, they need guys that can feed the post without turning it over. Those same guys also need to be able to make 3s at a good rate - both skills shouldn't be that difficult for D1 guards, but apparently it's harder than we think.
I think "pride" is in play, but understand the D on the ball is providing a lot of pressure many times and so teh offensive player is aware of the hounding and threatening to take the ball as well. With teh clock and scouting there is a lot of denying first opporutnity many times and then it is up to the offensive player to create the angle if still trying to feed the post. Purdue generally brings the 5 towards the ball rather than reversals and such to feed the 5
 

OhioBoiler51

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I am pretty comfortable with the idea that there are not a lot of big-time programs recruiting guys based on their ability to make a post-entry pass.
When you hear Painter talking about a recruits ability to pass the ball do you think he’s talking about the flashy stuff?

At this point there is no sense continuing this conversation. Just gonna have to agree to disagree. I have a good feeling that the people calling the shots on who will be playing would also respectfully disagree with your opinion as well.
 
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DAG10

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When you hear Painter talking about a recruits ability to pass the ball do you think he’s talking about the flashy stuff?

At this point there is no sense continuing this conversation. Just gonna have to agree to disagree. I have a good feeling that the people calling the shots on who will be playing would also respectfully disagree with your opinion as well.
I am good with agreeing to disagree and moving on...when I hear Painter talk about a recruit's "ability to pass the ball" I generally cringe, as, if THAT is what he is calling attention to, it generally concerns me as it should be the last thing I hear him talking about with respect to a recruit's abilities...other coaches don't talk about it at big-time programs because it is just expected that a guy can do it.

Again, I will concede that at Purdue it may matter a bit more than at so many other places just because Purdue is one of the very few programs to play through the post, but, the idea that Purdue is recruiting guys because of their "ability to pas the ball to the post" is a bit much, and, again...more than comfortable with the idea that other big-time programs are not focusing on the same...my guess is that most are concerned with the guys' ability to score, create and, ultimately, win games...guards are how you win, and, win big...and, generally not because they possess the ability to make post-entry passes well.
 

Poprudy

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Best pot/kettle post in a long time ! Thanks for the chuckle.

:cool:
The fact that he doesn't recognize an entry pass as being a form of art is hilarious. Yet, he rags on another poster about playing basketball.

I've never been on a team we didn't practice entry passes and I'm assuming most did the same. It's one of, if not the biggest decision for a motion style offense. Literally every person needs to know the entry pass.
 

SCBoiler1

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That is indeed the objective, and, it is why most teams do not have a post-centric offense...that Purdue tries to be contrarian is an entirely different conversation.

A guy standing on the perimeter and dropping the ball down to the post to the guy standing 2-feet away from the rim (at most usually) and him dropping the ball in the bucket is entirely different from a guy handling the ball, controlling the offense, driving the ball and dishing the ball...the point was made about Morton's A/T ratio...same point could be made virtually every year (and many times has been) about guards for Purdue...because opposed to so many other guards, they are getting easy assists as you suggest, and, they are not doing anything that would lead to a potential turnover most of the time...they catch the ball and throw it to the block...that is not a genuine skill, and, it would be crazy if they played and were not capable of doing it...to the point that if that were actually the case, they would not actually play.

Purdue has now become known for its inside-out offense. I don't know if that was Painter's plan but since AJ came on campus that's how its developed. As a result its become a recruiting advantage for big guys. It just seems to be how its evolved.

We forget some of Purdue's best teams under Painter weren't centered around the low post. Haarms and JJ were good centers but Purdue didn't necessarily run their offense through them. I just wonder if Painter has become a victim of his moderate success utilizing a low post offense,
 

Poprudy

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Purdue has now become known for its inside-out offense. I don't know if that was Painter's plan but since AJ came on campus that's how its developed. As a result its become a recruiting advantage for big guys. It just seems to be how its evolved.

We forget some of Purdue's best teams under Painter weren't centered around the low post. Haarms and JJ were good centers but Purdue didn't necessarily run their offense through them. I just wonder if Painter has become a victim of his moderate success utilizing a low post offense,
Berg and Furst are more fluid bigs...thats what our bigs need to be
 
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northside100

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Purdue has now become known for its inside-out offense. I don't know if that was Painter's plan but since AJ came on campus that's how its developed. As a result its become a recruiting advantage for big guys. It just seems to be how its evolved.

We forget some of Purdue's best teams under Painter weren't centered around the low post. Haarms and JJ were good centers but Purdue didn't necessarily run their offense through them. I just wonder if Painter has become a victim of his moderate success utilizing a low post offense,
Agree with most of that. Painter's philosophy has always been that you have to recruit the kids you can get and you play through your best players.

As you said, I don't know that he's stuck on running the offense through the low post, but he's been able to land and develop really high quality players there. That seems likely to shift when Zach graduates with players like Furst, TKR, Colvin, Catchings, etc. likely to become the focus of the offense.
 
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northside100

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I am good with agreeing to disagree and moving on...when I hear Painter talk about a recruit's "ability to pass the ball" I generally cringe, as, if THAT is what he is calling attention to, it generally concerns me as it should be the last thing I hear him talking about with respect to a recruit's abilities...other coaches don't talk about it at big-time programs because it is just expected that a guy can do it.

Again, I will concede that at Purdue it may matter a bit more than at so many other places just because Purdue is one of the very few programs to play through the post, but, the idea that Purdue is recruiting guys because of their "ability to pas the ball to the post" is a bit much, and, again...more than comfortable with the idea that other big-time programs are not focusing on the same...my guess is that most are concerned with the guys' ability to score, create and, ultimately, win games...guards are how you win, and, win big...and, generally not because they possess the ability to make post-entry passes well.
When has Painter ever talked about post entry passing as what he's excited about from a recruit? He has talked about general passing ability for players like Mathias and Morton, but if he's ever talked about post entry passing for a kid coming in I missed it.
 
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