Rob Henry was defended here; newsflash - AA = 31 comp, 270 yards

[BoilermakerD]

yesterday.

You have people who were Danny Etling guys or simply want to, for some inexplicable reason, grasp to anything they can clench on to to maintain defense of ... John Shoop?!?

When did the Dalai Shoop become this sacred cow? Did I miss something? Is there some massive incentive to defend him that comes from some bias I'm not privy to? Is he like.. Mollenkopf's son-in-law's cousin or something? Is there just this anti-Chicago thing going so strong that "if the Bears fans don't like him, that must make him great" amongst the Indianapolis crowd?

Rob Henry was defended by enough people here that at least SOME OF the people bashing Appleby or casting him as "the reason" were also defending Henry.

Rob Henry got 311 yards passing at the beginning of the 2013 season. Danny Etling had 307 passing yards to star the 2014 season. Here, here's a graphic for you:

Passing yards to start the season:
2013 Rob Henry 311
2014 Danny Etling 307
2015 Austin Appleby 270

The problem if you don't like Appleby? His yards came in ONE GAME!!!! Rob Henry and Danny Etling needed TWO games to reach those totals.

And that's my issue. Is Appleby perfect? Is he even more than average? No. Not yet. I'd say he's very above average on his ability to do positive things, and then is bringing his total value below average with terrible moments.

But we just came off of two QBs who could not do positive things, and a third in Robert Marve who was a story of up and down that you just couldn't make up.

An honest, "the truth is somewhere in between" evaluation of Appleby

Is Blough better than Appleby? Well, here's the thing. I start with the idea that Shoop needs to run an offense that isn't bunched up. The offense should look something like the 2003 offense at Purdue. Not as wide open as 2004, but also not an offense where all the receivers are too bunched together, or there's two tight ends when it's not a good idea (go back to yesterday's broadcast, the extra tight end was pulling defenders closer to the run) or an offense where Taylor Stubblefield was lined up behind Kelly Butler for run plays.

The question becomes, could Appleby handle that kind of offense. I see something more troubling than his mistakes and his often choppy delivery on short throws that don't need a lot of velocity.

His timing. He throws to the right guy open, but has trouble leading that receiver. When he missed, he's throwing where they are, not where they're GOING TO BE.

Other than the mistakes and the bad timing on missed throws to receivers on the move, he's pretty freaking good. With an OC that spaces the offense properly, he could look like a B version of Orton as a junior. But, while we think we're running the spread, the more you watch, you'll realize we're running the anti-spread. This offense brings defenders to the ball better than Rex Ryan ever could.

So you've got a QB who can actually do things. You weren't sitting there watching a 160 yard passing day yesterday, so please. Did Appleby shoot himself twice?! Yes. But if you read those seeking to deflect from Shoop, you'd think that he was going three and out all day.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

How about... Neither shoop or appleby is the answer. Is that possible? Appleby doesn't have the vision, accuracy, or anticipation to be an NFL caliber QB, which is what virtually all of Purdue's good teams have had over the last half century.

 

[OhioBoiler3]

I just wish our QB had the common sense to check out of bad play calls and audible into a better play. Yes, I'm referring to the passe's on third and short.

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

They are both bad.

1. Tell me what our offense is. Just try. I have no earthly idea what our identity is. Pick something that lends itself to our strengths and go with it! Note: it's not the read option with AA in the game.
2. 1st down - run for 4 yards. 2nd down - run for 4 yards. 3rd down - fill in the blank. Note: it's not a lob to the safety.
3. AA has some skills as a practice QB, but he just does not belong in a game. He has his mind made up before the ball is ever snapped. The interceptions were 100% on him and cost us the game. There could have been more. He's an upper-classman! They sat Mostert for half a season for a couple fumbles. Same rules should apply!

 

[ghostoffatjack]

Just for the sake of thinking about it... we asked a QB who doesn't have a full season under his belt, didn't get all the 1st team reps last spring and again this fall to throw 48 passes in the season opener! We asked him to run a speed or read option running attack which he is clearly not suited to run and I doubt he has the go ahead to change any called played at the line or scrimmage at this point and hopefully had two options on what to run when the call comes in from the sideline in the future! Locking on to a receiver is a young QB's fault, running called plays he is not suited for is not!

 

[BoilermakerD]

They are both bad.

1. Tell me what our offense is. Just try. I have no earthly idea what our identity is. Pick something that lends itself to our strengths and go with it! Note: it's not the read option with AA in the game.
2. 1st down - run for 4 yards. 2nd down - run for 4 yards. 3rd down - fill in the blank. Note: it's not a lob to the safety.
3. AA has some skills as a practice QB, but he just does not belong in a game. He has his mind made up before the ball is ever snapped. The interceptions were 100% on him and cost us the game. There could have been more. He's an upper-classman! They sat Mostert for half a season for a couple fumbles. Same rules should apply!

Sorry but you're incorrect. You don't pass for 270 yards in games you don't belong in. Also, you know for sure that Appleby can check out of plays? I've seen NFL coaches lose it on QBs who audible and you think someone as stubborn as shoop would allow it?

Look I'm not doing this thing where AA is "my guy" and everyone else sucks cause my guy can do no wrong. I think Appleby is ok when you add it all up. But don't you think shoop could mess up way better than ok?

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

Time will tell. You left out the possibility that Marshall's D may actually be world-class bad. I expect this will play out like RH situation a couple years back. But...this time time it gets CDH canned in the end.

Here's something to discuss. Hope would have won this game!

P.S. I think Hope sucked and it was right to fire him.

 

[nat100]

15 interceptions in 11 career games. He has a big arm, but has a slow windup and marginal accuracy.

He isnt a good fit for what we are doing right now. He would be better off in a power offense like Minnesota. Lots of play action where he isnt forced to make a lot of reads.

 

[threeeputtt]

yesterday.

You have people who were Danny Etling guys or simply want to, for some inexplicable reason, grasp to anything they can clench on to to maintain defense of ... John Shoop?!?

When did the Dalai Shoop become this sacred cow? Did I miss something? Is there some massive incentive to defend him that comes from some bias I'm not privy to? Is he like.. Mollenkopf's son-in-law's cousin or something? Is there just this anti-Chicago thing going so strong that "if the Bears fans don't like him, that must make him great" amongst the Indianapolis crowd?

Rob Henry was defended by enough people here that at least SOME OF the people bashing Appleby or casting him as "the reason" were also defending Henry.

Rob Henry got 311 yards passing at the beginning of the 2013 season. Danny Etling had 307 passing yards to star the 2014 season. Here, here's a graphic for you:

Passing yards to start the season:
2013 Rob Henry 311
2014 Danny Etling 307
2015 Austin Appleby 270

The problem if you don't like Appleby? His yards came in ONE GAME!!!! Rob Henry and Danny Etling needed TWO games to reach those totals.

And that's my issue. Is Appleby perfect? Is he even more than average? No. Not yet. I'd say he's very above average on his ability to do positive things, and then is bringing his total value below average with terrible moments.

But we just came off of two QBs who could not do positive things, and a third in Robert Marve who was a story of up and down that you just couldn't make up.

An honest, "the truth is somewhere in between" evaluation of Appleby

Is Blough better than Appleby? Well, here's the thing. I start with the idea that Shoop needs to run an offense that isn't bunched up. The offense should look something like the 2003 offense at Purdue. Not as wide open as 2004, but also not an offense where all the receivers are too bunched together, or there's two tight ends when it's not a good idea (go back to yesterday's broadcast, the extra tight end was pulling defenders closer to the run) or an offense where Taylor Stubblefield was lined up behind Kelly Butler for run plays.

The question becomes, could Appleby handle that kind of offense. I see something more troubling than his mistakes and his often choppy delivery on short throws that don't need a lot of velocity.

His timing. He throws to the right guy open, but has trouble leading that receiver. When he missed, he's throwing where they are, not where they're GOING TO BE.

Other than the mistakes and the bad timing on missed throws to receivers on the move, he's pretty freaking good. With an OC that spaces the offense properly, he could look like a B version of Orton as a junior. But, while we think we're running the spread, the more you watch, you'll realize we're running the anti-spread. This offense brings defenders to the ball better than Rex Ryan ever could.

So you've got a QB who can actually do things. You weren't sitting there watching a 160 yard passing day yesterday, so please. Did Appleby shoot himself twice?! Yes. But if you read those seeking to deflect from Shoop, you'd think that he was going three and out all day.

Bring on basketball.

 

[banshee90]

I want a QB that doesn't look ****ing loss. I want a qb that steps up in the pocket and has the vision and FBall IQ to not throw in double coverage. I want a QB that doesn't throw 2 pick 6s in a freaking game.

AA had plenty of things to improve on and they aren't the things that should be worked on on your 3rd year in a program. Stop staring down your first WR option, work through your progression, read the defense, and take a step forward and set your feet before you throw.

 

[PaBoiler78]

I want a QB that doesn't look ****ing loss. I want a qb that steps up in the pocket and has the vision and FBall IQ to not throw in double coverage. I want a QB that doesn't throw 2 pick 6s in a freaking game.

AA had plenty of things to improve on and they aren't the things that should be worked on on your 3rd year in a program. Stop staring down your first WR option, work through your progression, read the defense, and take a step forward and set your feet before you throw.

one play I wanted to see on 3rd and 2 is where everyone goes right, have a single back who goes left, and the QB does a backward pitch to the back, that's a solid play we have that wasn't called yesterday.

 

[BoilermakerD]

15 interceptions in 11 career games. He has a big arm, but has a slow windup and marginal accuracy.

He isnt a good fit for what we are doing right now. He would be better off in a power offense like Minnesota. Lots of play action where he isnt forced to make a lot of reads.

And what is it were doing now? My point isn't that I'm a huge proponent of AA. My point is, at least he's functional and I'm not sure it gets better unless blough comes out like drew brees

 

[nat100]

What is it we are doing now? Running 4 wide offense with the read option. This isnt an i formation offense.

He isnt accurate enough for what they are trying to do. Also, he takes a lot of bad risks.

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

I'm not expecting "the good" to get a whole lot better since they were relatively even in practice. It's "the bad" that I'd like to see DB get a chance to fix. All opinions aside AA gave the othe team 14 points.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

The main issue with the offense that just baffles me is the identity issue. A time Purdue seems to want to spread teams out and put 4 wr's on the field and then at times they seem to want to pound the ball out of the shotgun with stacked TE's or WR's at the LOS...quit with the multiple look offense and find the aspect that Purdue does well and focus on that (whisky runs the ball, NU spreads a team out, MSU is a pro style). Honestly, what style is Purdue? Pro-spread-option-power?

 

[PaBoiler78]

The main issue with the offense that just baffles me is the identity issue. A time Purdue seems to want to spread teams out and put 4 wr's on the field and then at times they seem to want to pound the ball out of the shotgun with stacked TE's or WR's at the LOS...quit with the multiple look offense and find the aspect that Purdue does well and focus on that (whisky runs the ball, NU spreads a team out, MSU is a pro style). Honestly, what style is Purdue? Pro-spread-option-power?

Shoop Du Jour

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Shoop Du Jour

Can you just reply to all my messages in the future? Thanks in advance!

 

[JBoiler14]

My main problem with Appleby yesterday is he often thought he knew who was going to get open before the play developed. He almost came out of the huddle knowing who the ball was going to, and would throw it whether they were open or not sometimes. He played okay the majority of the time, but he can't take risks and try to make some of those throws he can't make.

 

[FearTheTrain]

A few thoughts- AA threw four interceptions which is terrible, but he responded pretty well after throwing a pick-6 on the first play of the season. That deep throw to Yancey was a pass we haven't seen since Orton (or Painter against IU). *If* the pass to the tight end was thrown well and we score a TD then posts would be very different right now. I'm not saying he's great, I just think he did some things that have been much better than the past. I think we should see the offense the next few games before rushing to judgment.

 

[BoilermakerD]

What is it we are doing now? Running 4 wide offense with the read option. This isnt an i formation offense.

He isnt accurate enough for what they are trying to do. Also, he takes a lot of bad risks.

You say four wide as if it's tillers offense. We may have four receivers out there, but they'll all be bunched within five yards horizontally of the tackles or the smallest receiver will be behind the right tackle. I'd like to see four wide with good, classic Lavell Edwards spacing and if there are not more yards and fewer disasters, fine.

I'm not saying Blough isn't better. I don't know. None of us do. I sure hope he isn't potentially better yet thrown into the fire too early. But say he's marginally better right now. How much better would he have to be to win Big Ten games in spite of a coordinator whose never done anything?

Blough would be Shoop's fourth QB. If we were not good in this scenario is that enough? It's like Bulls fans and The idea that the 2011-? Bulls teams are a real threat to win a title ... What do you have to see for it to be enough?

I'm not saying you're a huge Shoop supporter ... I'm saying there may be more wrong, for now, with what it is we are "doing" than Appleby.

 

[BoilermakerD]

A few thoughts- AA threw four interceptions which is terrible, but he responded pretty well after throwing a pick-6 on the first play of the season. That deep throw to Yancey was a pass we haven't seen since Orton (or Painter against IU). *If* the pass to the tight end was thrown well and we score a TD then posts would be very different right now. I'm not saying he's great, I just think he did some things that have been much better than the past. I think we should see the offense the next few games before rushing to judgment.

But that's my next problem .. Because AA didn't look great, I admit it. Imagine if we won?!? What if AA gets the TD to the tight end and plays well enough to acquit himself. I worry that his silent detractors would be sitting there with optimism with Shoop on our sideline when we'd have a train wreck coming v va tech.

Pretend for a second you live in an alternate universe where AA hit the TE and Purdue wins 38-34... Are you telling me in that world where AA is the guy who "had a disaster to start the game ... But recovered well" ... You're optimistic about this team and offense in the big ten??

 

[nat100]

You say four wide as if it's tillers offense. We may have four receivers out there, but they'll all be bunched within five yards horizontally of the tackles or the smallest receiver will be behind the right tackle. I'd like to see four wide with good, classic Lavell Edwards spacing and if there are not more yards and fewer disasters, fine.

I'm not saying Blough isn't better. I don't know. None of us do. I sure hope he isn't potentially better yet thrown into the fire too early. But say he's marginally better right now. How much better would he have to be to win Big Ten games in spite of a coordinator whose never done anything?

Blough would be Shoop's fourth QB. If we were not good in this scenario is that enough? It's like Bulls fans and The idea that the 2011-? Bulls teams are a real threat to win a title ... What do you have to see for it to be enough?

I'm not saying you're a huge Shoop supporter ... I'm saying there may be more wrong, for now, with what it is we are "doing" than Appleby.

Splits aside, he is sitting Appleby in the shotgun and using WR screens to replace outside runs and is trying to use a short controlled passing game. That is too reliant on a QB with marginal accuracy and poor decision making skills.

 

[BoilermakerD]

Okay, let's get into what he's "doing" because the announcers cited it. Purdue was running well with multiple receivers. It had the best of both worlds. Three receivers meant that you were making the defense choose between allowing the runs they were in fact getting or giving up open receivers for Appleby to work with.

What did Shoop do? He brings in a second TE. Let's pause here. None of our tight ends are receiving threats even at the low end Big Ten/high end C-USA level. Okay, so with that asserted, when Purdue was already getting good runs with the 3 receiver set, why bring in a tight end when all that does, as the announcers pointed out, is bring more defenders closer to the run?

And that's Shoop. He is a master at bringing defenders closer to whatever player gets the ball. And that's almost universally true to some degree of any OC who is not excelling at their job.

And, I'm not sure what, if any point, you're trying to make about Appleby being the wrong QB for what they're trying to do. The coaches decide which QB starts. So...

a) Why start the wrong one for what you're trying to do
b) If you double back and respond that "maybe Blough isn't ready yet".. then why not tailor what you're running to the guy who IS ready?

Good coaches scheme to the personnel they have, they don't wish they had the personnel to scheme what they want to scheme when they don't have it.

 

[nat100]

I've said it multiple times. He is inaccurate and makes bad decisions.

In an offense where the qb is a distributor (shoops words) that is a BAD fit

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

I've said it multiple times. He is inaccurate and makes bad decisions.

In an offense where the qb is a distributor (shoops words) that is a BAD fit

Stop. You're both correct. As was mentioned at the top, they're both bad.

My predictions to my friend before the season:
1. AA will start, but get benched by game 3 or 4
2. Shoop gets fired at the same time. Replaced by the TE coach.
3. Blough will become our savior. By savior I mean 6 wins and a bowl game. And by savior I mean saving CDH's job which sucks.
4. MJ ascend with Blough to be the second coming of...well...nothing I can remember at Purdue.
5. Magically our receivers will look a lot more open.

 

[BoilermakerD]

Okay then why is Shoop sticking with him? If I were Shoop and I didn't want to get fired, I'd a) Go with someone else or b) tailor what the offense was to be better for Appleby's strengths.

Even if Appleby was bad for the reasons you have stated, he did enough good things to show that there is a style for him to be effective if you have no one else ready.

I'd rank the QBs, based on everything we saw/have seen to this point, in my time this way

1. Brees
2. Orton
3. Painter
4. Elliott
5. Appleby
6. Kirsch
7. Marve
8. Etling
9. Henry

He's, to this point, at a point where he really could go either way. Everyone plays my guy where their guy can do no wrong and the other guy sucks.

I'm not defending Appleby's play. A QB's job is to make good decisions and they have to be accurate. But, after the past few years, functional at the QB position has me drooling. I'm sitting here like, "you mean we have a guy who looks like a real college QB, can actually hit a pass that isn't a gimme and hasn't torn his ACL yet? A guy who doesn't look way too young and raw to be out there? Wow! As a starting point, I'm in for a little more information."

Would I be less in if Blough was a sophomore and Sindelar was a redshirt freshman? Of course I would be. My wish list FOR THIS SEASON would include a scenario where we continue to recruit athletes who actually execute football things, Hazell wakes up and realizes he's not at Ohio State, Shoop improves but is still fired, the administration pays a decent-pretty good OC, Appleby has growing pains but is FUNCTIONAL all year, and then by the end of the year, he's either improved quite a bit and has a good senior year coming, or he hasn't and is supplanted.

I have no agenda regarding Appleby for or against. But, I've seen enough Purdue football to know damn well that the likelihood that we're f-ing awesome and that Blough is going to come in, turn into magic in a bottle, and carry us off to Pasadena is far less likely than..

He comes in, shows some promise, wins a game or two (even unexpectedly), is game-planned for appropriately, suddenly struggles mightily, and has people here lamenting how his confidence was ruined.

Nat, don't you honestly look at Marshall and think "we were better" .. but then also have to step back and in terms of looking at it like Theo and the Cubs, think, "we're in the year before getting back to being on the high end of Hope or better"...?

This team is not ready to bust out. Unless "busting out" means 5-6 wins and looking like there's a pretty decently solid fundamental foundation.

 

[BoilermakerD]

Stop. You're both correct. As was mentioned at the top, they're both bad.

My predictions to my friend before the season:
1. AA will start, but get benched by game 3 or 4
2. Shoop gets fired at the same time. Replaced by the TE coach.
3. Blough will become our savior. By savior I mean 6 wins and a bowl game. And by savior I mean saving CDH's job which sucks.
4. MJ ascend with Blough to be the second coming of...well...nothing I can remember at Purdue.
5. Magically our receivers will look a lot more open.

I think two scenarios are more likely...

1. Appleby continues to be functional and cuts down on his mistakes, is not terrible, but not great.. think of that Curtis Painter feeling you got at times where you almost weren't mad, but you just didn't know where it was going one way or another; we get to 5 wins and Shoop is absolutely not fired by a group of people who you're going to have to realize think he's really good, and we're right on the borderline at the end of the year of whether Hazell (and therefore Shoop) are done or get a new contract.

2. You're correct on one, but as Appleby fails, no one realizes Shoop is a much bigger problem and much worse at his job. Blough comes in and provides a spark in an offense that Shoop momentarily opens up for him (he likes to do this with a new QB until he can find ways to be overly safe with that new QB), but then things begin looking just as congested and poorly timed (game management) as they are now, Blough hits a wall hard, and you're looking at another Etling situation where a kid with potential was thrown to the wolves WAY too soon.

The scenario where Appleby turns into Orton in the next few weeks OR where Blough takes over and shows that he is Drew Brees' distant relative and sets the world on fire.. would both by far be my favorite over what I listed, but then.. winning the lotto today would be my favorite too. Then there's the ODDS that my favorite will happen.

Oh, I love my favorite part of potential scenario 2. See if this sounds familiar to you as a Purdue fan. It's the part where Blough begins struggling terribly, is found to be "injured" after a game he finishes where he looks like a wounded dog, and suddenly in week 9, Appleby is back in after four weeks out.

I've seen the movie where everyone thinks a QB change at Purdue is going to produce miracles.

 

[BoilerBulldog]

I'm still sticking with my 6 win prediction. And I agree with your comments that AA is really our only hope for this year, unless we want to "Etling" Blough, which would be terribly shortsighted.

As far as your list, I think you have Marve way too low. AA is not better than Marve, at least right now.

 

[BoilermakerD]

I'm still sticking with my 6 win prediction. And I agree with your comments that AA is really our only hope for this year, unless we want to "Etling" Blough, which would be terribly shortsighted.

As far as your list, I think you have Marve way too low. AA is not better than Marve, at least right now.

You're always asking two questions. "Better talent" or "better based on what they did"?

If you assume the same work ethic, lack of bad off field choices, execution, etc., Marve might be top 3 on that list, maybe HIGHER .. as crazy as that is.

But I was ranking them based on what actually happened. I wish that Marve never tore his ACL, had better judgment (which probably means he never leaves Miami), and had a hungry (no pun intended) Jim Chaney as his OC instead of what he had. Man that could have been good.

But based on all of the things that actually happened, it's hard to rank him very high.

Back to what you said. This really is a year where I don't see 6 wins. I see this team as a team that, if you go back before Marshall, would have been in position to win 7 games if we do everything right to close a game out, but will Purdue away 3-4 of those games and end up with 3-4 actual wins.

I've learned a lot about being a fan by being a Purdue fan. It's a thing you can't quit, so you have to actually learn. One of the things I've learned is that instead of saying "we'll win these 7 games" or "Should win these 7 games" you really should be saying "here are 7 games we could very easily be in position to win if we do everything right and we get just a bit more of the bounces going our way than against us"... Teams who have 8 games they should be more likely to win than not .. and who execute well.. probably end up with 6 or 7.

If I showed you the 1999 Boilers on tape, would you look at their schedule and say "yep, 7-5"..

 

[NashvilleBoiler]

I think two scenarios are more likely...

1. Appleby continues to be functional and cuts down on his mistakes, is not terrible, but not great.. think of that Curtis Painter feeling you got at times where you almost weren't mad, but you just didn't know where it was going one way or another; we get to 5 wins and Shoop is absolutely not fired by a group of people who you're going to have to realize think he's really good, and we're right on the borderline at the end of the year of whether Hazell (and therefore Shoop) are done or get a new contract.

2. You're correct on one, but as Appleby fails, no one realizes Shoop is a much bigger problem and much worse at his job. Blough comes in and provides a spark in an offense that Shoop momentarily opens up for him (he likes to do this with a new QB until he can find ways to be overly safe with that new QB), but then things begin looking just as congested and poorly timed (game management) as they are now, Blough hits a wall hard, and you're looking at another Etling situation where a kid with potential was thrown to the wolves WAY too soon.

The scenario where Appleby turns into Orton in the next few weeks OR where Blough takes over and shows that he is Drew Brees' distant relative and sets the world on fire.. would both by far be my favorite over what I listed, but then.. winning the lotto today would be my favorite too. Then there's the ODDS that my favorite will happen.

Oh, I love my favorite part of potential scenario 2. See if this sounds familiar to you as a Purdue fan. It's the part where Blough begins struggling terribly, is found to be "injured" after a game he finishes where he looks like a wounded dog, and suddenly in week 9, Appleby is back in after four weeks out.

I've seen the movie where everyone thinks a QB change at Purdue is going to produce miracles.

Oh man, I hate that last scenario! The reason I think Shoop gets fired is because CDH's hand will be forced to save his job. Yeah, I know, this is Purdue and we don't really care about football, but something magic will happen (clap if you believe). We simply have sucked for so long that when no one shows up for the next couple games and the product on the field has people reminiscing about the good old days of Danny Hope, that's when magic starts. WE ARE MUCH WORSE THAN IU AND HAVE BEEN SINCE HE GOT HERE! And no, Barry Alvarez did not start this way.