Questionable Minutes Against FSU

Jun 25, 2018
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I’m a patient fan of CMP, but last night was another example of his unwillingness to give bench guys more minutes.

TKR was doing really well and only played 7 minutes! Furst was crushing and should have seen more time off the bench also. Morton was clearly not himself and yet played 29 minutes! I just don’t get why he keeps a guy on the floor who is struggling, yes sits guys when they are clearly making a big impact on the game.

Plus, the last few minutes of the game he had 4 guards and Morton on the floor. FSU was taking it to the basket every time because we had no shot blocker. Where was TKR? When you have a superior athlete of that size who can also guard the three he needs to play! It’s a long season and Edey doesn’t always have to play 30+ minutes to win when we have a deep bench. I’m thankful for a win, but it seems to me we could have won more convincingly with a better rotation.
 

mathboy

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Maybe I can help, at least with your question about the end-of-game strategy. Our strategy was to not allow FSU to turn us over. No matter what they did on they offensive side, there was not enough time for them to catch us if they had to bring the ball down each time from their end. The only way they could even the score was to turn us over in our backcourt and score easy layups. Putting all our ball handlers in was the best strategy, even if it left us a bit short on the defensive end. We didn't need to score again if we just ate up the full 30 on our possessions, we win.

:cool:
 

pubill

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I’m a patient fan of CMP, but last night was another example of his unwillingness to give bench guys more minutes.

TKR was doing really well and only played 7 minutes! Furst was crushing and should have seen more time off the bench also. Morton was clearly not himself and yet played 29 minutes! I just don’t get why he keeps a guy on the floor who is struggling, yes sits guys when they are clearly making a big impact on the game.

Plus, the last few minutes of the game he had 4 guards and Morton on the floor. FSU was taking it to the basket every time because we had no shot blocker. Where was TKR? When you have a superior athlete of that size who can also guard the three he needs to play! It’s a long season and Edey doesn’t always have to play 30+ minutes to win when we have a deep bench. I’m thankful for a win, but it seems to me we could have won more convincingly with a better rotation.
Yep Matt is managing this team awful this year.
 

Purdue Grad in Texas

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Painter willingly takes blame for this in his press conference....think he's still trying to figure this out - good problem to have from one perspective and he recognizes the value of getting those guys more minutes and that they're earning them. Hard habits to break even for the coach sometimes. JMHO

At approximately 1:09 for Trey Kaufman-Renn and approximately 3:49 for Caleb Furst:

 

Boiler Buck

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I’m a patient fan of CMP, but last night was another example of his unwillingness to give bench guys more minutes.

TKR was doing really well and only played 7 minutes! Furst was crushing and should have seen more time off the bench also. Morton was clearly not himself and yet played 29 minutes! I just don’t get why he keeps a guy on the floor who is struggling, yes sits guys when they are clearly making a big impact on the game.

Plus, the last few minutes of the game he had 4 guards and Morton on the floor. FSU was taking it to the basket every time because we had no shot blocker. Where was TKR? When you have a superior athlete of that size who can also guard the three he needs to play! It’s a long season and Edey doesn’t always have to play 30+ minutes to win when we have a deep bench. I’m thankful for a win, but it seems to me we could have won more convincingly with a better rotation.

I agree Morton had a bad game on both sides, particularly on D, TKR and Furst played well &.Newman was good on D in H2.

I also agree CMP seemed blind to that last night. He has an affinity for Morton's play and seems to cut him way more slack than the rest. Can't blame him really, when M is good he is the guy to flat out have on the court......but last night wasn't his night. Still, I wonder if posters see that, I would hope surely coaches do too.

I will cut CMP some slack....other than last night his sub patterns have been great.
 

dayhr11

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It's a nice problem to have. FSU does weird things, as Edey said. I think minutes will increase for the bench as the season progresses. Painter wasn't going to lose this game. Time will tell.
 
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bonefish1

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Yeh, Morton's been solid defensively but his shot is ugly right now. It's not pretty like Loyer's. Morton's got a weird hitch in his stroke. I know people will say "but his role isn't to score", but you have to be able to knock down wide open shots at a higher % than he is if that's what the D is going to give you.
 

Boiler Buck

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Yeh, Morton's been solid defensively but his shot is ugly right now. It's not pretty like Loyer's. Morton's got a weird hitch in his stroke. I know people will say "but his role isn't to score", but you have to be able to knock down wide open shots at a higher % than he is if that's what the D is going to give you.

Morton has been very solid on D. Last night he was not. Seemed to be a step slowin his normal speed and anticipation.

His shot seems broke, which he will fix with time.....not a major part of his value.
 
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One thing that drives me nuts with Morton especially is when he drives to the lane and seemingly has a really good look from about 10ft or closer and passes out for a 3. The 3s looks great when they go in, but why are you constantly passing out of what should be a very high percentage shot?

He had one in particular last night where it looked like he would have had an easy reverse layup and passed it out for a corner 3 which we missed.
 

FirstDownB

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He is slow to cut veterans who do things the right way out of the rotation or to limit their minutes. Which I don't blame him for. Gillis is going to have to be a star in his role, hit open shots, rebound and defend like crazy, and not do stupid things like trying to lead a fast break in traffic if he is going to hold off Furst and TKR for playing time. Newman is going to have to keep feeding the post and making an impact on defense and on the glass. Morton basically has to play flawless glue guy basketball. The younger guys have so much upside, they are only going to get better and more deserving of taking those minutes as they mature.
 

EdBoiler

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Maybe I can help, at least with your question about the end-of-game strategy. Our strategy was to not allow FSU to turn us over. No matter what they did on they offensive side, there was not enough time for them to catch us if they had to bring the ball down each time from their end. The only way they could even the score was to turn us over in our backcourt and score easy layups. Putting all our ball handlers in was the best strategy, even if it left us a bit short on the defensive end. We didn't need to score again if we just ate up the full 30 on our possessions, we win.

:cool:
This. And he wanted his best FT shooters on the floor.
 
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GemstateBoiler

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I think overall, I didn't see the same intensity in the play that was there the previous few games. FSU had more than we had much of the game, and got some loose balls and rebounds we normally win on. I do think it was at least partly due to fatigue with travel and a heavy game schedule we just had. If we hit better from the foul line. like we have had recently, we could have been up by 10 much earlier and won by 15-17. I think coach was looking for a click from different combinations on the floor and it never seemed to happen. I agree I questioned some players sitting for long periods, but I don't matter.

So there will be games we don't make 3 pointers or shoot foul shots well, but finding other ways to win is the key to me. Sure, it may be ugly at times. I do know we are still undefeated. I think FSU will beat some decent teams this year when they get their game in rhythm for 40 minutes.
 
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New Pal Boiler

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Yeh, Morton's been solid defensively but his shot is ugly right now. It's not pretty like Loyer's. Morton's got a weird hitch in his stroke. I know people will say "but his role isn't to score", but you have to be able to knock down wide open shots at a higher % than he is if that's what the D is going to give you.
Agreed. With Edey in, the other 4 on the floor need to at least be threats from 3.
 
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tjreese

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Maybe I can help, at least with your question about the end-of-game strategy. Our strategy was to not allow FSU to turn us over. No matter what they did on they offensive side, there was not enough time for them to catch us if they had to bring the ball down each time from their end. The only way they could even the score was to turn us over in our backcourt and score easy layups. Putting all our ball handlers in was the best strategy, even if it left us a bit short on the defensive end. We didn't need to score again if we just ate up the full 30 on our possessions, we win.

:cool:
Time and score! Winning is the goal...convincingly is great, but winning is the goal. I'm going to repeat something I've said many times in the past. There are MANY different opinions of what happened and why something happened along with what could have happened in a forum or group of people concerning an event of some nature.

1)If something didn't work out as desired it does NOT mean that something else would be better. Whatever choices are made the effects show up on D and O and "may" be different at different stages of the game

2) When you have many "different" opinions it only reasons that the many are not the best, just due to "many" different opinions.

3) coaches "may not be correct" in what they do, as having many different from each other opinions on the same subject are mathematically incorrect as well. Coaches and staff have an idea of what players "should" be most effective against "most" teams and players on the teams.

4) The coaching staff (not just a single coach) sees all the players in different stages of a game in practice and should have not just individually, but collectively the greater discrimination of strengths and weaknesses of individual players and individual players within a "team" setting.

As you attested...time and score were significant. Had Purdue not been in bonus and had this been a 1 or 2 possession game, the personnel would probably be different...UNTIL "later" when the time and score left changed the players. If a game is close, experimentation is refined to practice only for the understanding. Lastly, FSU was not the 1 & 7 team previously considered and I imagine if they shot as well as they did early that record would be different. They have good players as well and a coach that has been very successful. It was good for the team to get this one out of the way and need similar success in a really hostile gym to keep growing...
 

New Pal Boiler

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Time and score! Winning is the goal...convincingly is great, but winning is the goal. I'm going to repeat something I've said many times in the past. There are MANY different opinions of what happened and why something happened along with what could have happened in a forum or group of people concerning an event of some nature.

1)If something didn't work out as desired it does NOT mean that something else would be better. Whatever choices are made the effects show up on D and O and "may" be different at different stages of the game

2) When you have many "different" opinions it only reasons that the many are not the best, just due to "many" different opinions.

3) coaches "may not be correct" in what they do, as having many different from each other opinions on the same subject are mathematically incorrect as well. Coaches and staff have an idea of what players "should" be most effective against "most" teams and players on the teams.

4) The coaching staff (not just a single coach) sees all the players in different stages of a game in practice and should have not just individually, but collectively the greater discrimination of strengths and weaknesses of individual players and individual players within a "team" setting.

As you attested...time and score were significant. Had Purdue not been in bonus and had this been a 1 or 2 possession game, the personnel would probably be different...UNTIL "later" when the time and score left changed the players. If a game is close, experimentation is refined to practice only for the understanding. Lastly, FSU was not the 1 & 7 team previously considered and I imagine if they shot as well as they did early that record would be different. They have good players as well and a coach that has been very successful. It was good for the team to get this one out of the way and need similar success in a really hostile gym to keep growing...
FSU has a decent starting five. Awful bench, at least until they get the Spanish kid back from the 16 game NCAA suspension. (What did Kansas do this time?)
 
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Purdue Grad in Texas

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FSU has a decent starting five. Awful bench, at least until they get the Spanish kid back from the 16 game NCAA suspension. (What did Kansas do this time?)

Baba Miller (6'11") - impermissible travel benefit (round trip from Spain) to attend a training camp prior to his commitment, which was repaid. Yes, technically a violation - it's the uneven application of the rules that is disturbing......like New Pal hints at.....but we already knew that despite the jokes.

Jaylan Gainey, a transfer from Brown, is also out for the season with a knee injury. Those two losses really hurt Florida State's front line depth. Still, they'll be a problem from time to time in conference play and get an upset or two when they hit some shots.
 
Jun 25, 2018
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46
13
Painter willingly takes blame for this in his press conference....think he's still trying to figure this out - good problem to have from one perspective and he recognizes the value of getting those guys more minutes and that they're earning them. Hard habits to break even for the coach sometimes. JMHO

At approximately 1:09 for Trey Kaufman-Renn and approximately 3:49 for Caleb Furst:

Good stuff! If I had watched the postgame press conference I would not have made this post to begin with. Glad to see CMP acknowledge the mistakes. Painter is a class act.
 

Wolegib

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Maybe I can help, at least with your question about the end-of-game strategy. Our strategy was to not allow FSU to turn us over. No matter what they did on they offensive side, there was not enough time for them to catch us if they had to bring the ball down each time from their end. The only way they could even the score was to turn us over in our backcourt and score easy layups. Putting all our ball handlers in was the best strategy, even if it left us a bit short on the defensive end. We didn't need to score again if we just ate up the full 30 on our possessions, we win.

:cool:
That’s the type of reply I like. It was factual. Provided insight. And answered the question without degrading the person who asked the question.

I also liked that in the last minute we were fouled a lot and our players actually made their free throws ! That was nice to see! Painter had the guys in that he wanted to close out the game.
 
Jun 25, 2018
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Maybe I can help, at least with your question about the end-of-game strategy. Our strategy was to not allow FSU to turn us over. No matter what they did on they offensive side, there was not enough time for them to catch us if they had to bring the ball down each time from their end. The only way they could even the score was to turn us over in our backcourt and score easy layups. Putting all our ball handlers in was the best strategy, even if it left us a bit short on the defensive end. We didn't need to score again if we just ate up the full 30 on our possessions, we win.

:cool:
Thanks for the reply. I see a problem with a strategy of "we didn't need to score again" or "there was not enough time for them to catch us". This mentality has plagued many talented Purdue teams. I believe going conservative and playing not to lose is one of the reasons we've lost to the Mean Green, Little Rock, and the Peacocks. We need to stop playing with our food. Win by as many as possible. Killers win the natty.
 

PaBoiler78

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One thing that drives me nuts with Morton especially is when he drives to the lane and seemingly has a really good look from about 10ft or closer and passes out for a 3. The 3s looks great when they go in, but why are you constantly passing out of what should be a very high percentage shot?

He had one in particular last night where it looked like he would have had an easy reverse layup and passed it out for a corner 3 which we missed.
he also had one in the 2nd half where he drove from the wing on the left side and beat his guy to the basket but he dribbled right thru the lane. You're 6'5 go hard to the rack, if you miss maybe get fouled and a good FT shooter to boot.
 

bonefish1

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Thanks for the reply. I see a problem with a strategy of "we didn't need to score again" or "there was not enough time for them to catch us". This mentality has plagued many talented Purdue teams. I believe going conservative and playing not to lose is one of the reasons we've lost to the Mean Green, Little Rock, and the Peacocks. We need to stop playing with our food. Win by as many as possible. Killers win the natty.
Agree 110%. Keep attacking! Sitting on the ball for 25 seconds, jacking up a bad shot and then giving up a quick 3 on the other end has doomed many a Purdue team.
 

bonefish1

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he also had one in the 2nd half where he drove from the wing on the left side and beat his guy to the basket but he dribbled right thru the lane. You're 6'5 go hard to the rack, if you miss maybe get fouled and a good FT shooter to boot.
He's almost pass-first to a fault. Granted, he's a good passer, but like you said, you get an open run at the rim, got hard and either finish or get fouled.
 

Lee3370

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Painter willingly takes blame for this in his press conference....think he's still trying to figure this out - good problem to have from one perspective and he recognizes the value of getting those guys more minutes and that they're earning them. Hard habits to break even for the coach sometimes. JMHO

At approximately 1:09 for Trey Kaufman-Renn and approximately 3:49 for Caleb Furst:


Its easy to 2nd guess or play arm chair qb, its all happening so fast while coaching, but obviously that is why CMP makes 7 figures a year to figure it out.

Its interesting he is well aware of his mistakes, talks about plus minues, but all of our bigs except for Edey can play the 4 or 5. Problem is we have 4 bigs deserving time, so only so many minutes to go around and do we take out Edey more to play TKR more? Maybe the answer is yes, but its not like TKR can play the 2 or even the 3. Its a good problem to have, and CMP seems to be aware and trying to figure it out.

Edit: Just adding and agreeing with you, that tape you provided is very insightful how CMP thinks. I cant believe he has our freshman playing this well, amazing job
 

bonefish1

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Its easy to 2nd guess or play arm chair qb, its all happening so fast while coaching, but obviously that is why CMP makes 7 figures a year to figure it out.

Its interesting he is well aware of his mistakes, talks about plus minues, but all of our bigs except for Edey can play the 4 or 5. Problem is we have 4 bigs deserving time, so only so many minutes to go around and do we take out Edey more to play TKR more? Maybe the answer is yes, but its not like TKR can play the 2 or even the 3. Its a good problem to have, and CMP seems to be aware and trying to figure it out.

Edit: Just adding and agreeing with you, that tape you provided is very insightful how CMP thinks. I cant believe he has our freshman playing this well, amazing job
4 bigs?
 
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Its easy to 2nd guess or play arm chair qb, its all happening so fast while coaching, but obviously that is why CMP makes 7 figures a year to figure it out.

Its interesting he is well aware of his mistakes, talks about plus minues, but all of our bigs except for Edey can play the 4 or 5. Problem is we have 4 bigs deserving time, so only so many minutes to go around and do we take out Edey more to play TKR more? Maybe the answer is yes, but its not like TKR can play the 2 or even the 3. Its a good problem to have, and CMP seems to be aware and trying to figure it out.

Edit: Just adding and agreeing with you, that tape you provided is very insightful how CMP thinks. I cant believe he has our freshman playing this well, amazing job
I think the answer is to move Gillus to 3 and start either TKR or Furst at 4.

Gillus is a great shooter and Cline played 3 without being a good ball handler so why can't Gillus.


1 Smith
2 Loyer
3 Gillus
4 Furst/TKR
5 Edey

This is our strongest starting lineup
 

northside100

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I think the answer is to move Gillus to 3 and start either TKR or Furst at 4.

Gillus is a great shooter and Cline played 3 without being a good ball handler so why can't Gillus.


1 Smith
2 Loyer
3 Gillus
4 Furst/TKR
5 Edey

This is our strongest starting lineup
Painter is on record a few weeks ago saying they (Gillis, Furst, TKR) can’t guard the 3 position.
 
Feb 16, 2022
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For those of you down on Morton’s defense last night let me ask you a couple of questions. Have you ever seen Darrin Green Jr play before? I watched him play the last 3 years. My daughter went to UCF. Very streaky shooter. When did DGJ make his last FG? 18:10 to go in the game. Morton did a very good job on him in the 2nd half. Morton also made his free throws at the end of the game.
This Purdue TEAM is fun to watch. The fact that they played 4 games in 7 days and traveled over 5000 miles and didn’t get to the hotel until 2am on Tuesday night because of weather tells me a lot about this TEAM. They have a will to win more than any Purdue TEAM in recent memory. So enjoy the ride. It’s going to be a fun TEAM to cheer for while watching them improve. BOILER UP!! HAMMER DOWN!! BTFU!!
 
Jun 25, 2018
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For those of you down on Morton’s defense last night let me ask you a couple of questions. Have you ever seen Darrin Green Jr play before? I watched him play the last 3 years. My daughter went to UCF. Very streaky shooter. When did DGJ make his last FG? 18:10 to go in the game. Morton did a very good job on him in the 2nd half. Morton also made his free throws at the end of the game.
This Purdue TEAM is fun to watch. The fact that they played 4 games in 7 days and traveled over 5000 miles and didn’t get to the hotel until 2am on Tuesday night because of weather tells me a lot about this TEAM. They have a will to win more than any Purdue TEAM in recent memory. So enjoy the ride. It’s going to be a fun TEAM to cheer for while watching them improve. BOILER UP!! HAMMER DOWN!! BTFU!!
Well said. Thanks for the inside info on Green Jr. This team’s will to win is what I’m counting on this year. I think we finally have multiple players that want to win at all cost. And for the record I’m a big Morton fan!!
 
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Boiler Buck

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For those of you down on Morton’s defense last night let me ask you a couple of questions. Have you ever seen Darrin Green Jr play before? I watched him play the last 3 years. My daughter went to UCF. Very streaky shooter. When did DGJ make his last FG? 18:10 to go in the game. Morton did a very good job on him in the 2nd half. Morton also made his free throws at the end of the game.
This Purdue TEAM is fun to watch. The fact that they played 4 games in 7 days and traveled over 5000 miles and didn’t get to the hotel until 2am on Tuesday night because of weather tells me a lot about this TEAM. They have a will to win more than any Purdue TEAM in recent memory. So enjoy the ride. It’s going to be a fun TEAM to cheer for while watching them improve. BOILER UP!! HAMMER DOWN!! BTFU!!

Newman did a good job on him in H2. Morton when he came back in...had a couple fouls quickly on guys he guarded because he was a step slow

I agree both did better in second half, but just because we all like Morton, doesn't mean we can't see a bad game when he has one. All Boilers will at sometime this season. Luckily, they will have flat out great games too, like Morton did this past weekend. It's ok to talk about & notice both.
 

Lee3370

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I think the answer is to move Gillus to 3 and start either TKR or Furst at 4.

Gillus is a great shooter and Cline played 3 without being a good ball handler so why can't Gillus.


1 Smith
2 Loyer
3 Gillus
4 Furst/TKR
5 Edey

This is our strongest starting lineup

Your position is more about what you can guard than offense ability, Gillis cant guard the 3, in fact if there is a stretch 5 in the game, Edey has trouble guarding out to the 3 point line, but is so valuable on offense, they scheme to keep Edey out there. That lineup would be a disaster on defense and so bad it is unplayable.
 
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ChoiceBeef

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Thanks for the reply. I see a problem with a strategy of "we didn't need to score again" or "there was not enough time for them to catch us". This mentality has plagued many talented Purdue teams. I believe going conservative and playing not to lose is one of the reasons we've lost to the Mean Green, Little Rock, and the Peacocks. We need to stop playing with our food. Win by as many as possible. Killers win the natty.
What did Jimmy Johnson say when Miami curbed stomped ND back in the day? I’ll stop scoring when you give up.

🕷
 

tjreese

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Thanks for the reply. I see a problem with a strategy of "we didn't need to score again" or "there was not enough time for them to catch us". This mentality has plagued many talented Purdue teams. I believe going conservative and playing not to lose is one of the reasons we've lost to the Mean Green, Little Rock, and the Peacocks. We need to stop playing with our food. Win by as many as possible. Killers win the natty.
The mean green was primarily overhelping if I recall. Leaving to help when it wasn't needed. I know I broke down a few videos at the time and called out the time to see what was going on. Little Rock under Gene in 87??? was when he was wanting to run and tried running with Johnny Orr if I recall. I know I was sitting in the folding chairs at the game where my head was about knee high of the players. Little Rock with Matt had their big or forward dribbling just shy of short corner on the baseline left side and scoring before getting deep enough for the Purdue big which may hve been Haas???? Also, they either ran a 2-2-1 pressor or man press when they maybe released to the ball to trap that caused a couple of turnovers in the last couple of minutes of regulation and then of course the high bounce 3 ball and another shot from their guardsthat was the final dagger. Last year was a team that lacked chemistry towards the end, couldn't hit a shot and no longer had a real identity...and as we know missing some intensity and toughness on D.

There is no stall anymore in basketball. There isn't much of a delay game either anymore. The game has been simplified for fans and much more one dimensional. The clock forces you to attack within a few seconds, but there always is a mathematical relationship between time and score based upon certain probabilities of scoring percents which includes team fouls. Matt's goal is to win and he will play the odds to do so. It may include using the whole 30 seconds and then letting the other team take it out, but that is a bit hyperbole although the point is valid.

Sometimes, foolish aggressive play is the only way the other team can win? Gotta play smart understanding clock and score and yet stay focused and in a flow. There are times in a game where I think stop, score, stop and use the clock and it should be enough to win depending on score and using the clock some before looking to score with maybe 5 minutes to go. It is always a balance between being foolishly aggressive and reluctively passive to get that sweet spot
 

tjreese

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Painter is on record a few weeks ago saying they (Gillis, Furst, TKR) can’t guard the 3 position.
I didn't hear "guard" concerning Gillis. I heard he would not play the 3. Perhaps I missed the word defend or guard? Personally, I don't know whether the issue is on D or O. Matt allows all of them to switch on D which puts them defending the 3 man at times. Perhaps it is a concern of handling the ball more, shooting on the move more and generally slowing down the offense? Maybe it is both?
 

tjreese

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I think the answer is to move Gillus to 3 and start either TKR or Furst at 4.

Gillus is a great shooter and Cline played 3 without being a good ball handler so why can't Gillus.


1 Smith
2 Loyer
3 Gillus
4 Furst/TKR
5 Edey

This is our strongest starting lineup
Ryan played some PG at Carmel and had some guard skills and play in his background
 
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BoilerNGold013

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I really think the 4 spot is interchangeable depending on match-ups. Painter has an incredible luxury to match up with whatever he feels is best at the 4. Furst is the muscle and height to counter bigger 4's and cover mobile 5's. Gillis is the guy to play when teams play 4 out 1 in with the PF being more of a wing that can shoot. I think Gillis probably starts because of his defense. Gillis is a really really solid defender that doesn't make many mistakes.
 
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Jul 30, 2019
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Your position is more about what you can guard than offense ability, Gillis cant guard the 3, in fact if there is a stretch 5 in the game, Edey has trouble guarding out to the 3 point line, but is so valuable on offense, they scheme to keep Edey out there. That lineup would be a disaster on defense and so bad it is unplayable.
Well I'm operating on the assumption that Gillus can defend the 3. He's 6'6 so it doesn't seem like he's too tall.

I think the issue of Edey vs a stretch 5 is a separate thing.
 

Boilpotato

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Well I'm operating on the assumption that Gillus can defend the 3. He's 6'6 so it doesn't seem like he's too tall.

I think the issue of Edey vs a stretch 5 is a separate thing.

It's Gillis not Gillus. Arguments will generate more street cred if main subject in them spelled correctly. Just saying.