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Police Chief shot to death

This stuff really pisses you off? You really think Jackson and Sharpton have any immediate impact on your life? Lowe's and WalMart a F'in you a million more times and harder than those two. They are simply playing a roll, one that does, IMHO, more harm to AA than good, but they aren't doing it for AA, they are doing it for you. To keep YOU engaged and enraged, just ignore them for god sake.
 
You are so right that those two really pisses me off.

Along with the above, the media outlets didn't even mention it if hardly at all. It seems to be OK with a lot of the American public if a minority kills a white law officer. Where is the outrage?

There was very little mention of a white police offer being shot to death on his birthday by a black in Gary Indiana a few weeks ago.

Again you are right as this stuff really pisses me off. Law enforcement people being taken out or vilified by the American public and many just ignore this or get behind the perpetrators in these issues. What a world we live in today????
 
I guess I'm missing something, are those who killed the officers not being pursued, arrested, charged, tried, convicted and incarcerated? How is this similar?

I'm troubled by all senseless killing, black teen or white police chief, it makes no difference to me.

But to your point, trying honestly to understand here, are you say that AA's must simply accept poor treatment because of the actions of a minority within the minority?
 
I am also troubled of the senseless killings. I totally agree with you.

I am not saying blacks should not accept poor treatment from the authorities, they should not. It does go both ways though. I work in a black neighborhood in the south suburbs of the Chicago area. I have been stopped a couple of times in an 11 year period, by black officers looking for something. I never got a ticket. Maybe because I have Indiana plates or because I am white?

Anyway I will say this: if anyone white, black, yellow, green or whatever color gets into a physical conflict with the authorities, then they get what they deserve.
 
thats insane

police officer are gifted the power to kill. That power demands responsibility and a heavy burden. Your approach (as if cops = crooks) as if the standards we give to police shouldn't be, I dunno, slightly higher than the standards we give to criminals, is insane.

Yes, crooks do bad things. And NO ONE complains when we punish them.

But let John Stewart help you see that you know actually folks like Sharpton and others you guys hate so much actually do deal with black on black crime.

TDS
 
Re: thats insane

Come on now, you and Stewart are asking an awful lot of Fox News.
 
Re: thats insane


I would really like to see you as some law enforcement individual. Maybe just maybe you would have a different perspective when trying to protect the community from thugs, rioters, thieves, murderers, drug addicts and the like. I wonder how you would handle life threatening situations? Maybe you would take the other side rather than always defending the thieves, rioters, thugs etc.
 
Re: thats insane

I'm sorry, but just as I think Bill O'Reilly is not the right person to represent one side in a race debate, I don't think Sharpton is either. To me they are different sides of the same coin and the persona's they have cultivated over the years are what get the reaction and their involvement/commentary on an important issue, like race, that needs discussing, changes any discussion to simply noise.
 
Re: thats insane

Originally posted by kescwi:
I'm sorry, but just as I think Bill O'Reilly is not the right person to represent one side in a race debate, I don't think Sharpton is either. To me they are different sides of the same coin and the persona's they have cultivated over the years are what get the reaction and their involvement/commentary on an important issue, like race, that needs discussing, changes any discussion to simply noise.
O'Reilly's talking points from Tuesday night about white privilege and the struggle for blacks to assimilate:
Unemployment Rates
Blacks - 11.4%
Whites - 5.3%
Asians - 4.5%
Do we have "Asian Privilege" in America?

Median Household Income
Asians - $69.000
Whites - $57,000
Blacks - $33,000
More "Asian Privilege" in America?

Maybe it has more to do with this:
High School Graduation Rate:
Asians - 88%
Whites - 86%
Blacks - 69%

And this:
Children in 1 parent homes:
Asians - 13%
Whites - 21%
Blacks - 55%

Federal government cannot fix this problem - only a message of personal responsibility can change these figures.
 
Re: thats insane


Originally posted by hunkgolden:
Originally posted by kescwi:
I'm sorry, but just as I think Bill O'Reilly is not the right person to represent one side in a race debate, I don't think Sharpton is either. To me they are different sides of the same coin and the persona's they have cultivated over the years are what get the reaction and their involvement/commentary on an important issue, like race, that needs discussing, changes any discussion to simply noise.
O'Reilly's talking points from Tuesday night about white privilege and the struggle for blacks to assimilate:
Unemployment Rates
Blacks - 11.4%
Whites - 5.3%
Asians - 4.5%
Do we have "Asian Privilege" in America?

Median Household Income
Asians - $69.000
Whites - $57,000
Blacks - $33,000
More "Asian Privilege" in America?

Maybe it has more to do with this:
High School Graduation Rate:
Asians - 88%
Whites - 86%
Blacks - 69%

And this:
Children in 1 parent homes:
Asians - 13%
Whites - 21%
Blacks - 55%

Federal government cannot fix this problem - only a message of personal responsibility can change these figures.
O'Reilly is nothing more than the TV version of Limbaugh.

I find your last comment to be overly simplistic (and somewhat offensive, with its assumption that the majority of African Americans lack personal responsibility). Perhaps the first thing to do is ask why the disparity exists - and really study the question rather than simply jump in with "a lack of personal responsibility" as the only explanation. Perhaps questions about opportunity could be raised. How much funding do the schools on the South Side of Chicago get as opposed to schools in wealthy suburbs? Are adjustments made for areas in which parents cannot afford the extra cost of some activities and opportunities? Are there systems and stereotypes in place that make it more difficult for African American students to succeed? A strong case can be made that there are.

The thing is, this issue is like every other - neither extreme is a sufficient explanation. It is not merely that "black kids are taught from a young age to hate the police" (a comment I actually heard recently) or that "black people lack personal responsibility" (the implied message of your post). Nor is it merely that the system keeps them down and prevents them from succeeding. It seems to be the case that there is some truth to both of those, that the reason for the disparity in numbers comes from a melange of causes that resists any oversimplification.

We will never solve anything by looking at only one partisan-backed view of causation.
 
I would be interested in seeing those numbers broken down by generation, boomers who were coming of age during the civil rights movement up to those starting their adult lives today and then broken down along various household income points. The way they are doesn't really shed much light on anything.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Re: thats insane

Originally posted by pastorjoeboggs:


Originally posted by hunkgolden:

Originally posted by kescwi:
I'm sorry, but just as I think Bill O'Reilly is not the right person to represent one side in a race debate, I don't think Sharpton is either. To me they are different sides of the same coin and the persona's they have cultivated over the years are what get the reaction and their involvement/commentary on an important issue, like race, that needs discussing, changes any discussion to simply noise.
O'Reilly's talking points from Tuesday night about white privilege and the struggle for blacks to assimilate:
Unemployment Rates
Blacks - 11.4%
Whites - 5.3%
Asians - 4.5%
Do we have "Asian Privilege" in America?

Median Household Income
Asians - $69.000
Whites - $57,000
Blacks - $33,000
More "Asian Privilege" in America?

Maybe it has more to do with this:
High School Graduation Rate:
Asians - 88%
Whites - 86%
Blacks - 69%

And this:
Children in 1 parent homes:
Asians - 13%
Whites - 21%
Blacks - 55%

Federal government cannot fix this problem - only a message of personal responsibility can change these figures.
How much funding do the schools on the South Side of Chicago get as opposed to schools in wealthy suburbs? Are adjustments made for areas in which parents cannot afford the extra cost of some activities and opportunities? Are there systems and stereotypes in place that make it more difficult for African American students to succeed? A strong case can be made that there are.
Not sure about Chicago but here in Indiana - IPS schools receive roughly 40% more per student in state funding than suburban schools. Last I heard, several of the suburban schools had joined together and filed suit against the state regarding their formula. BTW, IPS schools have been receiving these extra funds for 30+ years and their drop out rates and test scores are basically flat and in some cases have dropped. Meanwhile suburban schools results are improving while receiving less state funding because of the 1% property tax cap that was enacted a few years ago.

Just as with other social issues - throwing money at the problem rarely solves the issue.
 
$13,078 per student per year in the CPS system

But that's not enough for you?

O'Reilly is nothing more than the TV version of Limbaugh.

In the sense that both tell politically incorrect truths about race? OK, I can accept that.

I find your last comment to be overly simplistic (and somewhat offensive, with its assumption that the majority of African Americans lack personal responsibility). Perhaps the first thing to do is ask why the disparity exists - and really study the question rather than simply jump in with "a lack of personal responsibility" as the only explanation.

Did he say it was a "majority" of African Americans? No. Did he say it was the "only" explanation? No. But you had to exaggerate. Why? Because telling politically incorrect truths about race tends to cause people to exaggerate in response. Group comparisons are valid and they don't mean that it applies to every single individual within the group.

How much funding do the schools on the South Side of Chicago get as opposed to schools in wealthy suburbs?

Irrelevant. How much money is spent somewhere else has no bearing on what kind of education some kid gets in the CPS system. You could double the budgets for the suburbs and it wouldn't affect the CPS. You could halve or quarter the budgets for the suburbs and it wouldn't affect the CPS. There's more than enough money for the CPS. Unless you think $13,078 (as of 2011) isn't enough. If not, how much is enough?

Are there systems and stereotypes in place that make it more difficult for African American students to succeed? A strong case can be made that there are.

Really??? Then tell us what "systems and stereotypes" make it more difficult for black students to succeed. Keep in mind that the Democrat party and Teachers Unions have been in charge--for decades!--where black students tend to go to school. Also, tell us what you think of all the institutionalized advantages that black students have (affirmative action, minority outreach, etc.) compared to white (or Asian) students when it comes to getting accepted into college.

It is not merely that "black kids are taught from a young age to hate the police" (a comment I actually heard recently).....

Far more black kids are taught that than kids from other groups. Do you really deny this?

.......or that "black people lack personal responsibility" (the implied message of your post).

Are you saying its impossible to compare group to group levels of personal responsibility? If not then what's the problem with making comparisons to explain results?

Nor is it merely that the system keeps them down and prevents them from succeeding. It seems to be the case that there is some truth to both of those, that the reason for the disparity in numbers comes from a melange of causes that resists any oversimplification.

You're leaving out genetics. There is a definite pattern of measurement of average IQ in racial groups and academic performance. But we're not supposed to factor this in. No, instead we're supposed to orient society around the destructive lie of Equality. We'll just keep on wasting trillions of dollars in efforts to attempt to achieve equal results no matter how often it fails.

Chicago Public Schools By The Numbers
 
lol

I've prosecuted people. And I took my responsibility VERY highly to make sure I was following the Constitution and doing the right thing by their rights and justice. ONLY when I was certain of that, did I go forward, and THEN I went forward full throttle.
So swing and a miss on whether I "always" defend thieves, etc. I defend the system and the Constitution and the process, and that requires cops who aren't treated with impunity.
 
the idea of

one person "representing a side" is ridiculous, and I never said "Al Sharpton represents one side of anything."
What I did say is that as usual, the cartoonish repetition of Sharpton and JJ rests on the idea that they act 100 percent one way. That video from stewart shows clear evidence to the opposite.

Of course he says other things much more important that go right through the ears of many folks around here.
 
Re: $13,078 per student per year in the CPS system


Originally posted by GMM:
But that's not enough for you?

O'Reilly is nothing more than the TV version of Limbaugh.

In the sense that both tell politically incorrect truths about race? OK, I can accept that.

I find your last comment to be overly simplistic (and somewhat offensive, with its assumption that the majority of African Americans lack personal responsibility). Perhaps the first thing to do is ask why the disparity exists - and really study the question rather than simply jump in with "a lack of personal responsibility" as the only explanation.

Did he say it was a "majority" of African Americans? No. Did he say it was the "only" explanation? No. But you had to exaggerate. Why? Because telling politically incorrect truths about race tends to cause people to exaggerate in response. Group comparisons are valid and they don't mean that it applies to every single individual within the group.

How much funding do the schools on the South Side of Chicago get as opposed to schools in wealthy suburbs?

Irrelevant. How much money is spent somewhere else has no bearing on what kind of education some kid gets in the CPS system. You could double the budgets for the suburbs and it wouldn't affect the CPS. You could halve or quarter the budgets for the suburbs and it wouldn't affect the CPS. There's more than enough money for the CPS. Unless you think $13,078 (as of 2011) isn't enough. If not, how much is enough?

Are there systems and stereotypes in place that make it more difficult for African American students to succeed? A strong case can be made that there are.

Really??? Then tell us what "systems and stereotypes" make it more difficult for black students to succeed. Keep in mind that the Democrat party and Teachers Unions have been in charge--for decades!--where black students tend to go to school. Also, tell us what you think of all the institutionalized advantages that black students have (affirmative action, minority outreach, etc.) compared to white (or Asian) students when it comes to getting accepted into college.

It is not merely that "black kids are taught from a young age to hate the police" (a comment I actually heard recently).....

Far more black kids are taught that than kids from other groups. Do you really deny this?

.......or that "black people lack personal responsibility" (the implied message of your post).

Are you saying its impossible to compare group to group levels of personal responsibility? If not then what's the problem with making comparisons to explain results?

Nor is it merely that the system keeps them down and prevents them from succeeding. It seems to be the case that there is some truth to both of those, that the reason for the disparity in numbers comes from a melange of causes that resists any oversimplification.

You're leaving out genetics. There is a definite pattern of measurement of average IQ in racial groups and academic performance. But we're not supposed to factor this in. No, instead we're supposed to orient society around the destructive lie of Equality. We'll just keep on wasting trillions of dollars in efforts to attempt to achieve equal results no matter how often it fails.
Falling for your nonsense again, here I go.

Yes, I made the assumptions of "majority" and "only" - because the post to which I responded clearly insinuated those statements as generalizations with universal meaning.

If you think budget doesn't matter, you're beyond ignorant. I'm talking about school systems that cannot afford updated computer labs, school systems that have to charge parents for equipment for sports. No school system is perfect, and even the most well-funded have issues. But I suspect (don't know for sure, but suspect) that if you looked at where the most fiscally vulnerable school systems are, there will be a clear racial trend.

I would love to know the source of your comment that "far more black kids are taught that than kids from other groups." My guess is you're basing it off the news stories. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't know a single black person beyond the level of acquaintance. Further, if you're interested in facts (which I know you really aren't), African Americans have a long history full of reasons to mistrust law enforcement (and though my own observation is that African Americans are generally more mistrustful of law enforcement, there is a huge difference between mistrust and hate).

"Are you saying it's impossible to compare group levels of personal responsibility?" - Let's play the same semantic game you played with my post. I'll even use your approach. Did I say it was impossible? Of course not. But you have to exaggerate because your extreme views are unsupportable and idiotic. (wow, that was fun!)

It doesn't matter if Democrats or Republicans are in charge. You are operating under the (mistaken) impression that I identify with either of those parties. I don't. The stereotypical images of African Americans (especially young men) as "thugs" creates challenges for them. That's just one. The flight of business and people from inner city areas is also problematic. My opinion of affirmative action is simple - it was needed at one point, probably not so much now.

Finally, I didn't "leave out" genetics. I suggest you look up "melange" in your dictionary, because it is a word that allows for the inclusion of a variety of causes, both mentioned and not mentioned.
 
Re: the idea of

Sorry, wasn't saying you were but i see how my post could make you think that. However, your response is what i was getting at, once those two chuckle heads get involved it changes the discussion.

I don't know you, but being in a litigious business, I have a good sized experience pool with attorneys, one I trust and pay well reads all my business communications, reads some of these post of mine and has told me more than once to shut up.

Honestly, you are what I actually want, you're what my view of the US legal system is, as it is for most who oppose you but haven't experienced it yet so don't know. You fight, right or wrong, you advocate, there are other attorneys on this board and in these hot debates they stay on the sidelines until it is resolved and then tell us all how we were wrong. I assume you are young, came into this world some time after civil rights legislation. You're a beneficiary, and it's good, but conservatives will never understand that what you're doing is conservative, never understanding their neo liberal bull shit is the problem.

I probably agree with gr8 more than you, maybe 60-40, but your debates are very interesting. You're a good man, and an indication of how important the 60's were, your kids probably will go even higher, your grand-kids... will probably become conformist who stay out of theses debates, it's the story of America.
 
So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?

If you think budget doesn't matter, you're beyond ignorant.

Well, there you go again. Never said it didn't matter. Still waiting for a number from you which is adequate.

I'm talking about school systems that cannot afford updated computer
labs, school systems that have to charge parents for equipment for
sports.


In Chicago? If so then its blatant mismanagement, not a lack of funding.

But I suspect (don't know for sure, but suspect) that if you looked at
where the most fiscally vulnerable school systems are, there will be a
clear racial trend.


And where there's that particular racial trend there's a reliable pattern of Democrats in charge.

Further, if you're interested in facts......

Um, I posted facts. Have you?

"Are you saying it's impossible to compare group levels of personal
responsibility?" - Let's play the same semantic game you played with my
post. I'll even use your approach. Did I say it
was impossible? Of course not. But you have to exaggerate because
your extreme views are unsupportable and idiotic. (wow, that was fun!)

Did you notice my question mark? I asked you if you thought it was possible or impossible to make such comparisons. What's your answer?

The stereotypical images of African Americans (especially young men) as "thugs" creates challenges for them.

Who's at fault for that? I'd say the actual black thugs in the school system creates more challenges to the kids who want to learn than stereotypes.

It doesn't matter if Democrats or Republicans are in charge.

Please. If "urban" school systems showed equal success to those dastardly "white" suburban school systems then you can damn well guarantee that Democrats would take credit. Yes, it matters who's in charge.
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?


Originally posted by GMM:
If you think budget doesn't matter, you're beyond ignorant.

Well, there you go again. Never said it didn't matter. Still waiting for a number from you which is adequate.
Without an in-depth analysis of spending and income, you can't come up with an adequate number. Nor is the number going to be the same in every community. In fact, it may well be that the answer is better management and not more money. BUT - regardless of the reason, there are some schools (largely in low-income areas - such as inner city and Native American reservations) that are not providing their students with the same level of opportunity as even mid-level schools in predominantly middle class, "white" communities.

Originally posted by GMM:
I'm talking about school systems that cannot afford updated computer
labs, school systems that have to charge parents for equipment for
sports.


In Chicago? If so then its blatant mismanagement, not a lack of funding.
Yes, because the problem is only in Chicago. This whole discussion has been entirely about Chicago and not the entire country or the educational system as a whole. I used Chicago as an example primarily because I spend a fair amount of time there and am somewhat familiar with its issues.

Originally posted by GMM:
But I suspect (don't know for sure, but suspect) that if you looked at
where the most fiscally vulnerable school systems are, there will be a
clear racial trend.


And where there's that particular racial trend there's a reliable pattern of Democrats in charge.

It doesn't matter if Democrats or Republicans are in charge.

Please. If "urban" school systems showed equal success to those dastardly "white" suburban school systems then you can damn well guarantee that Democrats would take credit. Yes, it matters who's in charge.
It may matter to people like you, but it doesn't matter to me. I don't care if it is the Socialist Party of Libertarian Horse Lovers that's in charge - the problems remain and need to be addressed. There are probably multiple ways to solve the problems effectively, but all of them require cooperation between political parties (which, as we know, is not going to happen as long as both parties are filled with petulant children).
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?

Originally posted by pastorjoeboggs:

Without an in-depth analysis of spending and income, you can't come up with an adequate number. Nor is the number going to be the same in every community. In fact, it may well be that the answer is better management and not more money. BUT - regardless of the reason, there are some schools (largely in low-income areas - such as inner city and Native American reservations) that are not providing their students with the same level of opportunity as even mid-level schools in predominantly middle class, "white" communities.
My wife currently teaches at a Title I school in Indy. She has taught at non Title I schools in the past including a private school. She will tell you that the #1 difference in the student's performance is parenting. In fact, the low income school she teaches at now has far more computers, classroom aids, virtual whiteboards, and etc than the other school she's taught at. The private school she once taught at had virtually no modern technology and 30 kids in a class - yet those kids scored extremely high on statewide testing.
You've made several statements about public education in this country that simply aren't true. You've thrown out a lot of theories but those thoughts were disproven long ago.
The answers your looking for are provided in the stats I listed a few posts above. Not sure why you are having such a hard time admitting that.

This post was edited on 8/29 7:08 AM by hunkgolden
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?


Originally posted by hunkgolden:

The answers your looking for are provided in the stats I listed a few posts above. Not sure why you are having such a hard time admitting that.

This post was edited on 8/29 7:08 AM by hunkgolden
I apologize - I'm not communicating my point well.

It's not that I think the stats you listed are irrelevant. Clearly, they convey something significant.

My concern is two-fold. First, I worry that we often jump too quickly from statistics to causation. In other words, that we look at those numbers and immediately think, "See these things are the cause of educational deficits in minority communities." That certainly could be the case. Doubtless they contribute. But could they not also be a symptom of deeper lying issues? Could there not be a "chicken and egg" situation?

The second concern is that when we see stats that say a majority of a group thinks or acts a certain way, we have a tendency to forget that there is a minority that doesn't fit the statistics.
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?

Originally posted by pastorjoeboggs:


Originally posted by hunkgolden:

The answers your looking for are provided in the stats I listed a few posts above. Not sure why you are having such a hard time admitting that.


This post was edited on 8/29 7:08 AM by hunkgolden
I apologize - I'm not communicating my point well.

It's not that I think the stats you listed are irrelevant. Clearly, they convey something significant.

My concern is two-fold. First, I worry that we often jump too quickly from statistics to causation. In other words, that we look at those numbers and immediately think, "See these things are the cause of educational deficits in minority communities." That certainly could be the case. Doubtless they contribute. But could they not also be a symptom of deeper lying issues? Could there not be a "chicken and egg" situation?

The second concern is that when we see stats that say a majority of a group thinks or acts a certain way, we have a tendency to forget that there is a minority that doesn't fit the statistics.
You jumped into this conversation talking about budgets and $ spent per student - rural vs. suburbs. You clearly don't know anything about public education and how schools are funded. Now you're just throwing out generalities and suppositions without any findings of fact. In other words - you're just talking out your a$$.

I've provided real statistics and real world experiences and you offer up "chicken and egg" nonsense. Just stop talking about a subject you know nothing about already.
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?


Originally posted by hunkgolden:
Originally posted by pastorjoeboggs:


Originally posted by hunkgolden:

The answers your looking for are provided in the stats I listed a few posts above. Not sure why you are having such a hard time admitting that.


This post was edited on 8/29 7:08 AM by hunkgolden
I apologize - I'm not communicating my point well.

It's not that I think the stats you listed are irrelevant. Clearly, they convey something significant.

My concern is two-fold. First, I worry that we often jump too quickly from statistics to causation. In other words, that we look at those numbers and immediately think, "See these things are the cause of educational deficits in minority communities." That certainly could be the case. Doubtless they contribute. But could they not also be a symptom of deeper lying issues? Could there not be a "chicken and egg" situation?

The second concern is that when we see stats that say a majority of a group thinks or acts a certain way, we have a tendency to forget that there is a minority that doesn't fit the statistics.
You jumped into this conversation talking about budgets and $ spent per student - rural vs. suburbs. You clearly don't know anything about public education and how schools are funded. Now you're just throwing out generalities and suppositions without any findings of fact. In other words - you're just talking out your a$$.

I've provided real statistics and real world experiences and you offer up "chicken and egg" nonsense. Just stop talking about a subject you know nothing about already.
There's no reason to be insulting, I'm trying to be civil.

I never once claimed to be an expert in public school funding. I don't have the time to do that research, being in seminary and all. In fact, in my previous posts, I at least tried to make it clear that my statements on budgets for poverty stricken school districts v. wealthy school districts were guesses based on limited knowledge of a very particular situation (hence the references to Chicago). I also made it clear that I don't think budgets can fully explain performance discrepancies.

As far as "chicken and egg" nonsense - I think you're intentionally misunderstanding my point. It's really not that hard to grasp. You take two pieces of factual information:

A. There is a performance gap in schools.
B. The statistical data you provided in an earlier post.

There are at least four ways to talk about the relationship between A and B.

1. A is the cause of B.
2. B is the cause of A.
3. Some third thing, C, is the cause of both A and B.
4. A and B are mutually causative - that is they feed on and create each other.

My ONLY POINT in all of this has been that I don't think option 1 or option 2 is an adequate answer. Or at the very least, nothing has been posted in the conversation that warrants either of those conclusions.
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?

Let's try this again- the article linked below makes a strong case that funding does affect performance (at least in terms of standardized test scores).

Article
 
Re: the idea of

I'm not that young unfortunately. although yes I am just a little bit past the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 64. I haven't seen anything of yours that I would tell you to "shut up" on. I just think when it comes to race, folks who are white seem to think they can walk in the shoes of those who are black a little bit easier than they actually can.

They think it's about "personal responsibility" because the idea that's it's also about prejudice and racism offends their sensibility because they feel they bear no personal responsibility (either individually because they don't "have a racist bone in their body" or collectively as a member of society because racism is gone except for a few powerless individuals).

So the idea that cops do anything systematically for anything other than good reason, or that if you are black and you just follow the law you have nothing to worry about (because as white people, that's what they experience) makes sense to them, yet it doesn't make sense to folks who've never been in prison, never committed a crime, but still have different interactions with the cops or society than they do. It's that inability to stop being defensive and start thinking about perhaps maybe this whole race thing isn't a simple, one-dimensional thing but has multiple facets to it that embrace BOTH personal responsibility issues AND strong vestiges of racism and prejudice.

I dont drink smoke do drugs...I don't have a ton of babies (or even one at this point in my forties), I pay my taxes, serve my country...other than not being religious I do everything a conservative expects someone to do. Plenty of liberals just like me. The difference is IMO we see that just because we were able to "pull ourselves up from poverty" doesn't mean everyone can. I won the genetic lottery on some brains, and I won the life lottery by having some fortuitous events happen, like those dreaded minority scholarships folks like GMM and a few others probably find racist, or by being lucky enough to have my parents lie about where we lived so I could get into a decent middle school instead of the poor "black" middle school, same for high school for part of my time. Lot of kids in the same situation don't get that lucky on any of those fronts.

Brown didn't get that lucky.
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?

lol that's all the guy does, then complains when you give it back to him.

Most things as complicated as racial breakdowns of school performance have more than one cause, they usually have many causes spread out across individuals, groups, and society. They vary from one area to another. From one state to another.

Simple minded folks seek and prefer simple minded explanations.
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?

Originally posted by pastorjoeboggs:
Let's try this again- the article linked below makes a strong case that funding does affect performance (at least in terms of standardized test scores).

Article
Did you even read that professor's "paper"? What did you do - google school funding and found this pile of steaming crap? It's nothing but theory and he even states that in his conclusion. His "findings" aren't findings at all and he even states that. His statements are straight out of the teacher union playbook when schools are attempting to raise taxes. I know because I read all this crap a couple of years ago when our community voted down a school referendum. All we heard was doom and gloom - how our home values were going to go down; how our school's test scores were going to go down; how it benefits the community to spend more money on schools; and etc. Our community saw right thru the bs and overwhelmingly voted the referendum down. Our home values are just fine and we're actually in the middle of a housing boom of sorts right now. Our test scores have never been higher.

Since you clearly know nothing about public education and are taking the lazy man's approach and googling crap that you're not even taking the time to read, I'll make this easy on you and go with specific examples. Carmel high school here in Indiana for decades has had the lowest dropout rate and highest statewide test scores. And until the recently adopted 1% property tax cap, Carmel had some of the lowest property taxes in the state. Their teacher salaries were and continue to be very average.

Do yourself a favor and google IPS teacher salaries and IPS funding per student compared with those of Carmel, Zionsville, Center Grove, and Westfield. Then compare the dropout rates and test scores.

It all starts in the home.
 
Re: So, you don't think over $13,000 per student per year is enough?


Originally posted by hunkgolden:

It all starts in the home.
This I agree with. I would have agreed with this from the beginning.

It all starts in the home...but it doesn't stay there. Nor does an inadequate home mean no hope of future success.
 
if it all started in the home

and that's all it was about, I wouldn't be remotely as successful in life as I am.
 
Re: the idea of

Well I have been tame on here, but I push my attorney more than most and the biggie, where this site was first read, was when I used my real name name and got into a, and I was being childish I admit, knock down, drag out re a contractor i was in a legal battle with in the comments section of the Charleston paper. I didn't say anything false but for a man, my attorney, looking not to lose and for a compromise it was over the top and I have done it sense.

Looking not to lose is where I am coming from, it's where those of us firmly planted in the middle class reside, when you have something to lose the last thing you want is to rock the boat, let alone fight. You're right, none of us firmly planted in the white middle class can understand any of it, we don't live it every day. We may have an experience or two, but... I don't think that equates to true empathy. I've argued with officers, haven't always been right, but I have NEVER had an ounce of fear if I felt I was right. I don't doubt for a moment that minorities don't share that confidence.

Painting with a broad brush, middle America is worried, they see they are stagnating, shouldering debt just to live, they fear the future and they won't admit that for some, not those truly endowed with gifts, maybe, just maybe, the problem is their beliefs, they were conned. Look at what the middle class has bought into for 40 years, Shipping jobs over seas, no taxes, zero regulation, torte reform..., middle America has bought in to all of these not because they are dumb but because they are frightened. If they couldn't identify with Gates, it's going to be long time before they can identify with any poor minority.

This is such a complex issue needing discussion and getting none because IMHO it isn't just race, it plays a huge part no doubt, but where does the necessary contempt required to kill another human come from?



This post was edited on 9/1 7:38 PM by kescwi
 
Re: the idea of


My wife teaches in the Merrillville school district. Many black families lie about where they live to go to the Merrillville schools. Why are the poor black middle schools part of the problem? The state of Indiana spends more money per student (Gary) than any other school district in the state. What is society supposed to do to make education better for black families?
This post was edited on 9/2 6:47 PM by SKYDOG
 
hows that money spent?

You are looking at one state and one raw number.

I've seen the difference between good schools and bad schools (and by the way it isn't just about race, but income).

You appear to make the argument that all Indiana schools are equally funded. Yes? Or at least that the public school system is the best funded? SOME public schools are great. SOME public schools are not great. There are a lot of factors that go into that. And those factors vary from school to school. For some schools, it's not about funding but management. For others, it's about teachers. For others it IS about funding. And obviously parents matter a lot, as do the support the kids get both in the classroom and outside the classroom and at home. The environment matters. Are you spending your time studying? Are you spending your time working because mom has five kids and no dad and you need to help? (Don't believe that's true? I've seen it as a teacher prior to coming on active duty as an attorney).

There is no one sized fits all solution to fixing schools. However, there should be a recognition that there is a difference in many situations between the education received by some groups in this country and that of others. I suspect the poor whites of Alabama or Mississippi or West Virginia don't exactly receive stellar schooling either by the way, so again not just about AAs or Hispanics.

There's a strong correlation between socioeconomics and educational attainment. Why do you think that is? Poor people are lazy? Or is it a wee bit more complicated than that?
 
Re: hows that money spent?


Indiana public schools are not equally funded. Gary public schools get more money per student than any other school in the state. Gary public schools have mostly black educators. I have no idea on how the money and resources are spent. I personally believe it's the family or lack of one why education fails.

I'm not her to piss you off ,however I am at a loss on why such a high percentage of black families are of one parent. Why do so many black males leave their kids parentless? I'm just looking for your opinion. What is needed to be done to break the cycle? Thanks!
 
Why is that a race issue? It seems more a socioeconomic issue.

I read this last night and thought about my former employees and then asked my wife for her recollection of how many of our former employees with children were married. She came up, just like I had, among the hundred plus between the two of us, with two who were married with children, both AA.

What I didn't ask about was the number of my employees with back child support issues, off the top my head I can think of around a dozen who worked for me for a few weeks and then disappeared just before the garnishment letters got to us. Not one of those was AA.

I had a kid, just out of high school, who hounded me for a job and I finally gave him a laborers position making $10. What took me so long to hire was he didn't have a car but his persistence won out. On the day he was hired he met my wife to fill out his paperwork and the first thing he asked her was could she take part of his check each week and mail child support to the mother of his child. My wife said no problem just bring the paperwork from the court and he said he didn't have any. She said no problem I'll call and get it. There was a problem, the kid had never been order to pay child support. My wife explained to him that he and the mother would need to set it up before she could do what he was asking and that he really should think this through because once in that system he wouldn't be able to get out and maybe their current set up was is in his best interest. A few days later he tells me won't be in the next day and a week or so after that my wife received what she needed from Charleston county. The kid did it all in his own and I always have admired him for it and he was one last to be let go and one we helped license before he went. I still use him as a sub from time to time. If you haven't guessed, he is AA.

Should I take my experience and say AA males are more likely to pay child support than whites? Or could there be other issues than race at play?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
look back in time

at any low socioeconomic group, and you will see the same things:

lack of education
poverty
single parent homes higher than whatever the average of the time is
increase in crime

You want to portray it as a "black" thing...it's not. It's a "poor" thing.
Look at the Irish at the turn of the 19th century. Or Italians. Low education, high crime, and they didn't have nearly the racism issues to overcome, certainly not slavery or separate but equal on a national scale (although they certainly had some of that on a regional/local scale).

It took decades for those folks, who were white, to overcome those hurdles. And in places like Appalachia, and the deep South, poor whites still haven't. They are every bit as prone to low education, poverty, drugs, etc as blacks or hispanics.

Education breaks cycles. Steady availability of work breaks cycles. Investment in people instead of writing whole groups off and using the penal system to deal with them breaks cycles.
 
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